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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Elijah Wood will be in 'The Hobbit'
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macfalk
Valinor


Jan 8 2011, 11:55am

Post #276 of 379 (38884 views)
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Kangi [In reply to] Can't Post

Admit it, your fanfic part of the brain wants this, and more Evil



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 12:00pm

Post #277 of 379 (21267 views)
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I am not trying to champion a purist approach to the Hobbit. [In reply to] Can't Post

I just want to make the point that this is the Hobbit and not Lord of the Rings chapter one. It deserves some respect. Saying that Elijah Wood will star in the Hobbit (as I have read on several websites)makes my concern clear. There are those that hope for that which I fear most. i want The Hobbit. I can accept a bit of nostalgic framing to set it up and a bit of background story to make it even more meaningful but only a bit. If the set up and background becomes the story then I will not live to see the Hobbit done justice on the big screen.
I want the heart and soul of the Hobbit. A little frosting is OK, but only a little.


Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

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Bran
Lorien

Jan 8 2011, 12:01pm

Post #278 of 379 (21423 views)
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Balin in Moria not necessary for the Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

True, but most definitely IS necessary for the films to make sense as a quintet. Galadriel is not necessary for the Hobbit, but has been cast. Drogo has been cast, not in The Hobbit. We never see or hear Radagast in The Hobbit, but a well known actor has been cast. We know these things. It's clear that we are going to be seeing more than just the Hobbit story, and, imo, the reason for that is to tell the whole story over 5 films. I cannot see that these two new films will only tell the Hobbit story. In fact, It's obvious that they won't by the castings.

Jackson et al made the first three films for people who have, and have not read the books. Balin going to Moria may not need to be explained for the Hobbit story per se, and not for readers of Tolkien's works. For the movies though, that has to be explained. It makes no sense otherwise.

It's pretty clear to me why the bridge film concept was abandoned, but it was abandoned as a film. I think some of that material will still be included, and the castings support that.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi

(This post was edited by Bran on Jan 8 2011, 12:03pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 12:05pm

Post #279 of 379 (21271 views)
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The letter I quoted in an earlier post was from the fanfic part of my brain. [In reply to] Can't Post

Seven or so years of thought has helped the hormones settle and self examination mellow my desires.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 12:55pm

Post #280 of 379 (20895 views)
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It would take one line of dialog [In reply to] Can't Post

added to the final scene of the book (You know where Balin and Gandalf visit Bilbo at Bag End some years after Bilbo's return) to completely set up the Moria colony. Balin says: "By the way me and some of the boys are going back to Khazad-dum to set up shop."

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

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Bran
Lorien

Jan 8 2011, 1:00pm

Post #281 of 379 (22388 views)
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Let's agree to differ! [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 8 2011, 1:35pm

Post #282 of 379 (21319 views)
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Perhaps film-Frodo liked to live alone [In reply to] Can't Post

and Sam moved in to Bag End shortly following the end of the third film? But not the Sackville-Bagginses... no!


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 8 2011, 1:42pm

Post #283 of 379 (21720 views)
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There's an easy solution to this [In reply to] Can't Post

At some point in The Hobbit, while the Company is travelling, Balin walks alongside Bilbo and they start chatting. This will help to establish Balin as Bilbo's best friend amongst the Dwarves. They end up discussing what they want to do with themselves once they get their share of Smaug's treasure (reminding the audience of the film's purpose). Balin mentions that he'd like to take a colony of Dwarves and restore the abandoned underground city of Khazad-dm to its former glory.

There's no need for Balin to mention this in the scene at the very end of the second film where he and Gandalf visit Bag End The Hobbit shouldn't end on such a downbeat note reminding us that there is plenty of death and failure to come.


Bran
Lorien

Jan 8 2011, 2:08pm

Post #284 of 379 (21076 views)
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I agree with that [In reply to] Can't Post

Flagg, the point about the 'end' of film 2. In the original film appendices, the film makers talked about why they couldn't put the Saruman scene after the End of Helm's deep. In essence, it's more story after the film has ended, and that's a bad idea. I'm not sure how, but any exposition leading us into film 3 (FOTR) may well have to be done earlier. It's certainly interesting to speculate how that will be achieved.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 8 2011, 2:15pm

Post #285 of 379 (23259 views)
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I wouldn't say [In reply to] Can't Post

that Jackson 'went out of his way to let Tolkien be Tolkien' he did quite a good job of keeping the films faithful to the books, but many changes were made that were not needed, some of them very un-Tolkien. I think Jackson's trilogy is excellent perhaps even a masterpiece but it is by no means a perfect adaptation of the books. We've already seen three Jackson-directed, Jackson-scripted, Jackson-produced Tolkien films, and I was quite excited to see something somewhat different I was not only OK with the GdT/PJ team, I was highly enthusiastic about it. I would have been just as enthusiastic if del Toro had been given free reign and allowed to go crazy with The Hobbit perhaps even more enthusiastic. I don't get why people often say they want Jackson to direct 'for continuity' they seem to have a different definition in mind for the term than I do. If the characters are all portrayed by the same actors, and if the returning sets and props and costumes all look the same as they looked before, that's continuity. Different storytelling techniques or camera angles don't break the cohesion of a fictional universe.

I think you are misinterpreting del Toro's statements regarding Tolkien's work. He did not say that Tolkien was a neo-platonist or that he used spiritual allegory; he was comparing Tolkien to the man in the story of the cave. By the shadows on the wall, Tolkien was able to sense an other world what he himself called the 'secondary universe' beyond the mundane reality to which we are all confined. Del Toro's comments related to the magnitude and quality of Tolkien's writings, not to their spiritual or allegorical significance. He made a number of other statements in the quote I posted, reflecting his deep knowledge and familiarity with the myths Tolkien drew from. He expresses what I think is a genuine understanding of The Hobbit's core themes greed, war, hoarding, the loss of innocence not platonism and Catholic allegory!

I have no doubt that Guillermo would have produced an astounding rendition of The Hobbit I don't think I'll ever completely get over his departure. But one thing I totally agree with you on is The Children of Hrin...


Erwen Swan Maiden Of Alqualond
Bree


Jan 8 2011, 3:46pm

Post #286 of 379 (21831 views)
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Hi Ataahua!! *waves* [In reply to] Can't Post

I emerge from the dark caves of Lurkdom...pale...wide-eyed...and ready for redemptionAngelic



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The Party Tree
Lorien


Jan 8 2011, 4:11pm

Post #287 of 379 (21019 views)
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According to what Frodo is writing in the Red Book in those final scenes... [In reply to] Can't Post

...Sam was elected Mayor, all the same (I'm not absolutely sure on this because his arm is covering the book, but it seems to say):

"Samwise Gamgee was elected...[hand blocks page]
...Hobbiton, and though it took [???]
courage, he finally asked [???]
of fair Rosie Cotton [etc]."

Although I suppose that was just a little added gift to book fans and we shouldn't read into it. But I can't really accept the Sackville-Bagginses living in Bag End. That's just too much.


(This post was edited by The Party Tree on Jan 8 2011, 4:12pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 5:34pm

Post #288 of 379 (20843 views)
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I was pointing out that many of these side issues can be taken care of inside the story of The Hobbit. [In reply to] Can't Post

No need for time eating side trips when a bit of good writing takes care of the whole process. I only picked the books end scene because it exists and could be used as an example.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 8 2011, 6:17pm

Post #289 of 379 (20809 views)
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"Star" in the film? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd hope that by 'starring' they mean 'maybe 5 minutes of screentime'. Because, well, the Hobbit stars Bilbo. I don't mind if it co-stars Gandalf with the whole White Council/Dol Guldur debacle, but... I hope that the 'future' scenes are limited.

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


dormouse
Half-elven

Jan 8 2011, 7:11pm

Post #290 of 379 (21518 views)
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I think and hope [In reply to] Can't Post

... the references to Elijah Wood 'starring' in The Hobbit are just a bit of lazy journalism which started with someone who knew nothing of the books and assumed 'hobbit' = 'Frodo', and repeated by others.

I can't conceive of any way in which Frodo could have a starring role in these films - that's Bilbo's job.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 7:54pm

Post #291 of 379 (21625 views)
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The way it works: [In reply to] Can't Post

Any named cast appearing before the proper credit crawl -- sorted by size or importance of role and/or by seniority -- would rightly be described as "starring" in a film. Usually we see big names with small roles included at the end of the list following the words "and" or "and featuring." Likewise when a relatively unknown or young actor has a big part their name usually appears at the end of the list after the words "and introducing." Regardless, if they are listed before the crawl, they are a star of that work.

Don't quote me of course but no matter the size of his role, Wood is entitled to the descriptor "starring in" or "star of" because of his status, seniority, and/or the contribution he has already made to the franchise.

In common usage (ie among fans), if he is just one of many named cast members we might refer to him as "a star of The Hobbit movies." However, if his part is small, tangential, or otherwise insignificant we might call him "featured" or in "cameo" both of which acknowledge his star status. Conversely, even in common usage he would never (correctly) be called a "featured extra" or "extra."


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jan 8 2011, 7:58pm)


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 8 2011, 8:17pm

Post #292 of 379 (21197 views)
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dormouse [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, a lot of newspapers/sites are just recycling the same thing all over again.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jan 8 2011, 8:23pm

Post #293 of 379 (38736 views)
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I'd forgotten that Sam becoming Mayor [In reply to] Can't Post

is in the movie's Red Book. It's true it's just a glimpse, but I figure if it's there it must mean something...

But Sam doesn't need to move into Bag End to be Mayor - it's more important, I'd say, that he starts to take charge in the way that we see him doing when he goes to talk to Rosie. Once he's taken that one courageous step, he's on his way to greater things.


In Reply To
But I can't really accept the Sackville-Bagginses living in Bag End. That's just too much.


Well we're never told that, so no need to accept it! Cool I know a lot of people have made up endings that suit them better, such as Sam finding the deeds to Bag End inside the Red Book, and moving in after the end of the movie. I guess it's left open enough that we can imagine whatever we like.

I suppose I I imagine it different ways depending what mood I'm in, but I think it's quite possible to imagine that the Sackville-Bagginses got Bag End. Sam's reward is his happy family, and I think they'd be just as happy in that cosy hobbit-hole as they would in Bag End. But I bet Mayor Sam shook up those smug hobbits, like the S-Bs, the Proudfeet, and the hobbits with the pumpkin, once he got to be Mayor!

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



nobofthepony
Lorien


Jan 8 2011, 8:39pm

Post #294 of 379 (37270 views)
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case in point... [In reply to] Can't Post

There were choices PJ made that I probably would pulled the trigger on, yet he backed off because it wasn't true to Tolkien. The case in point is your avatar! If I were directing I would have done it! To have Sauron come out at the end like that...I would have done it. I'm surprised PJ stopped himself. Same with Arwen at Helm's Deep, etc.

I don't know...I guess it's just when GDT waxes philosophical it's like listening to Bono talk about world peace. For me at least. I guess my sensibilites just naturally lean toward a Peter Jackson. I like GDT in smaller doses.

What irks me is what seems like a measuring rod on this board - "Would GDT have signed off on this?" I don't necessarily think the standard for validity is GDT's opinion. He's entitled to it, but I trust Peter Jackson. That's what my posts are responding to. The unspoken assumption that GDT signing off on something makes it legitimate.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 8 2011, 8:58pm

Post #295 of 379 (30545 views)
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According to the EE appendices [In reply to] Can't Post

Jackson removed the 'Aragorn vs Sauron' fight because using fourteen-foot bad guys in suits of armour as the climax for an entire epic trilogy just didn't work very well. He didn't remove that sequence out of a sense of loyalty to Tolkien if that was the reason, it never would have made it past the storyboards. Once the battle had been filmed and intercut with the Cracks of Doom sequence, the filmmakers saw that it simply wasn't working very well, so they digitally replaced Sauron with a mountain troll.


nobofthepony
Lorien


Jan 8 2011, 9:27pm

Post #296 of 379 (33651 views)
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let me check [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok - let me check the appendices on that point. I specifically remember the words being said "It just wasn't Tolkien" but I'll defer if it's not there. I thought they said it was because they didn't want everything Frodo went through to hinge on a battle between Aragorn and Sauron, because that was anti-climactic, trivialized Frodo's sufferings and wasn't Tolkien.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 8 2011, 9:38pm

Post #297 of 379 (34593 views)
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I think the other reasons [In reply to] Can't Post

(that it was anti-climactic and that it trivialised Frodo's quest) were probably more influential in the decision to cut that sequence than the fact that it wasn't very Tolkienesque. There are plenty of aspects to the films that are very unlike Tolkien's writings.


nobofthepony
Lorien


Jan 8 2011, 9:48pm

Post #298 of 379 (33752 views)
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question [In reply to] Can't Post

Any film will be very unlike Tolkien's writings. Just so I have a sense of where your coming from, what changes would you have made/reversed to make the films better?


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Jan 8 2011, 9:51pm

Post #299 of 379 (33933 views)
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exact quote... [In reply to] Can't Post

"It was not what Tolkien imagined, and we realized that was actually totally demeaning to what Aragorn was doing."


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 8 2011, 10:03pm

Post #300 of 379 (30815 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

There are plenty of newly-added sequences in the films that I just didn't want, such as Aragorn falling off a cliff in The Two Towers, apparently dying, then turning out to be okay after all. I would have significantly decreased the length of the Battle for Helm's Deep, because in retrospect, having seen the whole trilogy, it seems like Minas Tirith-lite. Jackson's Faramir was a very different character than Tolkien's that change didn't bother me personally, but many people hated it. Much criticism has also been levelled at Jackson's reworking of the Shelob sequence, which has Gollum manipulating Frodo into sending Sam packing. There was the simplification of previously complex characters like Saruman and Denethor. And of course there's the very unsubtle, physical, gigantic flaming eyeball attached to the top of Barad-dr. I also missed the Scouring of the Shire, which Tolkien himself said was a necessary and integral part of the story.

I would have reversed (or at least reconsidered) all of the above if I had been in charge some changes go against the spirit of what Tolkien wrote, and some I just don't like. On the whole, I am very happy with what Jackson did with the trilogy but I still wish we were getting a different director's take on Middle-earth for once.

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