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squire
Gondolin
Jun 22 2007, 8:48pm
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**CoH Discussion** I. The Childhood of Túrin: 12. Húrin goes to the war
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The chapter concludes with the departure of Húrin for the war with Morgoth (pp.50-51).
A. Do you get the impression that Túrin knew nothing of what was happening until he was woken that morning? Is that likely?
B. It’s been suggested this week that Túrin had a lonely childhood, only turning to Sador for lack of any more suitable companionship. Without even considering the village-like nature of any large manor-house, we learn here that Húrin has guards and household men, living close enough by that they ride from his courtyard. Wouldn’t they have families and children with whom Túrin would have grown up with, played with, and generally gotten some social skills from, like combing one’s hair and washing up before sitting down for dinner at the great hall?
C. Compare this scene to the Weapontake of Rohan, in The Lord of the Rings. What are the differences and similarities: in writing style, in the character interaction, and in the socio-economic-military setting?
D. According to the timing, does it seem that Morwen and Húrin conceived a new child before or after they lost Lalaith? Does Morwen seem like the kind of woman to burden herself with an infant at a time when she is contemplating the loss of her husband and all his estate in an oncoming, hopeless war?
E. What is the midwinter feast? Why does Húrin think ahead to it now? Does he imagine he won’t get back before then; or would all celebrations and feasts typically be postponed in any case for the one big one at year’s end?
F. “Lacho calad! Drego morn! Flame Light! Flee Night!” This makes my head ache, it is so bad. What about you? Why or why not? More generally, how does the climactic ending to this chapter work for you?
G. What is the difference between trumpets and horns, if any, in Tolkien's works?
H. In the final sentence, the point of view changes in mid-sentence, from Morwen and Túrin to Húrin. Why?
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Eledhwen
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Jun 23 2007, 4:00am
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a) Pretty much. But times are hardly settled, and so much of the preparation of war (weapons being mended, etc.) would probably be normal. There's no especial reason Túrin should have marked any difference.
b) Couldn't the men have ridden from their houses to the courtyard to muster before setting off? That would explain why there weren't many children roundabouts for Túrin to play with. Also, I rather think he was such a taciturn sort of child that he probably wasn't much fun to play with, quite apart from the fact he'd have that aura of being the lord's son.
c) I think Nienor was probably conceived shortly after the loss of Lalaith, but not long after. As for the burden of an infant - did they have contraception in the First Age? Maybe the couple just lay together for comfort, and so came the child, and that was that.
e) Midwinter is a symbolic time in any culture - a time to banish the dark and look ahead to the longer days and warmer weather (the sooner the better this year, thank you Southern Hemisphere weather gods ...) It'd be the one Húrin wanted to be back for.
f) I like the last section but I could do without the battle-cry. I think the Edain should have sacked the battle-cry writer.
g) I don't think he makes much distinction, although horns always seem to be in battle while trumpets are more heraldic.
h) I think this is an example of Tolkien's writing style letting him down a bit, I'm afraid.
Marlborough vineyards on a sunny winter's day.
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Wynnie
Nargothrond
Jun 23 2007, 3:32pm
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A. Do you get the impression that Túrin knew nothing of what was happening until he was woken that morning? Is that likely? That doesn't seem likely at all.
B. It’s been suggested this week that Túrin had a lonely childhood, only turning to Sador for lack of any more suitable companionship. Without even considering the village-like nature of any large manor-house, we learn here that Húrin has guards and household men, living close enough by that they ride from his courtyard. Wouldn’t they have families and children with whom Túrin would have grown up with, played with, and generally gotten some social skills from, like combing one’s hair and washing up before sitting down for dinner at the great hall? Better not let Turin hear you ask that; you know what happened to Saeros. We're told in Chapter V that Turin "cared no longer for his looks or his attire"; to me, that implies that he did generally comb and wash in earlier years.
D. According to the timing, does it seem that Morwen and Húrin conceived a new child before or after they lost Lalaith? The timeline at this site shows Lalaith dying in 469, Nienor born in 473.
F. "Lacho calad! Drego morn! Flame Light! Flee Night!" This makes my head ache, it is so bad. What about you? Why or why not? More generally, how does the climactic ending to this chapter work for you? The English version sounds like a tongue-twister! -- try saying it three times fast. Aside from that, I do like the chapter ending very much, the riding out hopefully to battle under sunshine and glittering swords and a golden banner.
H. In the final sentence, the point of view changes in mid-sentence, from Morwen and Túrin to Húrin. Why? Oops. Should have stayed with the mother & son, I think.
None such shall return again.
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Modtheow
Menegroth
Jun 25 2007, 5:32am
Post #4 of 14
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household men and going to war
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A. Do you get the impression that Túrin knew nothing of what was happening until he was woken that morning? Is that likely?
I didn't get that impression. Turin could have known that his father was going to ride off to war; it's the trumpets that have woken him up suddenly, and he finds out that the men are riding off that day. He's too young to have been included in any planning, so this is how he finds out the details. Besides, when you're a kid, you don't necessarily keep track of days the way adults do. My son is always shocked when I tell him he has one more week of summer vacation left.
B. It’s been suggested this week that Túrin had a lonely childhood, only turning to Sador for lack of any more suitable companionship. Without even considering the village-like nature of any large manor-house, we learn here that Húrin has guards and household men, living close enough by that they ride from his courtyard. Wouldn’t they have families and children with whom Túrin would have grown up with, played with, and generally gotten some social skills from, like combing one’s hair and washing up before sitting down for dinner at the great hall?
No, Hurin's household men would not have had families, if they were anything like the Anglo-Saxons. The lord's household men (the "heorthgeneatas" in Old English or "hearth-companions") were men who lived in the lord's household as his loyal warriors, expected to ride out and fight with their lord. They would attempt to provide good service until their lord granted them lands of their own, on which they could establish their own households and families. In times of war when a larger army was needed, the lord could also call up other men on his lands besides his hearth-companions, and these too have been summoned by Hurin. I would think of Turin's home as more of an Anglo-Saxon hall than a Victorian "manor-house." Still, there would have to be other people about who would be the workers supporting this household; if they had children, they might not have been near to Turin's age. It might be that they weren't considered highborn enough to be his companions, but then why is he hanging around with a lowly woodman?
F. “Lacho calad! Drego morn! Flame Light! Flee Night!” This makes my head ache, it is so bad. What about you? Why or why not? More generally, how does the climactic ending to this chapter work for you?
I think that the climax of the chapter is very exciting, but I have to say that the battle cry in English sounds pretty awkward to me, especially the "Flame Light!" part -- hard to say. "Lacho calad! Drego morn!" sounds better.
H. In the final sentence, the point of view changes in mid-sentence, from Morwen and Túrin to Húrin. Why?
I think that having Morwen and Turin's point of view in the first half of the sentence, watching until they can't see Hurin any more; and then having Hurin's point of view in the second half, where he can't see his house any more, emphasizes the separation of the family very nicely.
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a.s.
Doriath
Jun 25 2007, 11:13am
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H. In the final sentence, the point of view changes in mid-sentence, from Morwen and Túrin to Húrin. Why?
I don't believe the POV changes at all. I believe the clause that follows the colon is simply an explanation for the horn sounding that Morwen and Turin hear.
It could be rewritten as:
But Morwen and Turin stood still by the doors, until far away they heard the faint call of a single horn on the wind, signifying that Hurin had passed over the shoulder of the hill, beyond which he could see his house no more.
They are, in fact, standing there waiting to hear the horn call: they stood "until...they heard".
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Some say once you're gone, you're gone forever, and some say they're gonna come back.
Some say you rest in the arms of the Savior if sinful ways you lack.
Some say they're coming back in a garden, bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be."
~~~~~Iris DeMent
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squire
Gondolin
Jun 25 2007, 2:49pm
Post #6 of 14
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Grammar vs. Effect: a study in misdirection
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You're right that Morwen and Túrin remain the subject of the entire sentence, and that the final clause after the colon represents their understanding of Hurin's situation after he has passed over the hillcrest.
But I suggest that the final clause is so complete in its sense, with two subordinate phrases of which Húrin is the subject ("Húrin had passed", "he could see"), that the reader's mind changes point of view, and experiences the end of the sentence as if he/she were Húrin.
What Tolkien is trying to say, I think, is that Húrin and his company are at a distance where they can still see the homestead but they are already too far away themselves to be seen - otherwise Morwen and Turin would see Húrin and the men pass over the hilltop, and disappear from view on the other side. Thus the horn is the signal for what they cannot otherwise know - when Húrin has finally left the valley. The lonely far note of a horn is an aural elegiac image (like the last note of a song, etc.).
Now Tolkien's usual device for this scene is the flashing reflection or light of some object in the distance: - When the light of the last farm was far behind, peeping among the trees, Frodo turned and waved a hand in farewell.
- Far over the plain Éowyn saw the glitter of their spears, as she stood still, alone before the doors of the silent house.
- The last glint of the morning sun on spear and helm twinkled and was lost, and still he remained with bowed head and heavy heart, feeling friendless and alone.
- ...sat on the hill and watched, until there came out of the gathering mist a flash; and then they saw no more. Frodo knew that Galadriel had held aloft her ring in token of farewell.
- ...slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth; and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore glimmered and was lost.
We see that with the visual image, the sentence always remains with the point of view of the watcher who is the subject of the scene, whether that watcher is the one leaving or the one left behind. And so it is in this end of Chapter I of CoH: Morwen and Túrin are set up as the watchers, standing at the door (a door that faces ominously to the east, by the way).
But instead of seeing the glint of spears or helmets or something, as has already been established, they hear the horn. Then suddenly the sentence puts us in Húrin's position, explaining that he is blowing the horn because he has lost sight of his home: now it is Húrin who (indirectly) is the subject. He is the one, via the grammatical trick of a colon, who finally loses sight of something he is leaving far behind.
Along with the subjective misdirection involved here, I’d add that the image of Húrin riding away, but constantly looking backward to his home so that he can blow a farewell note when he finally loses sight of it, is not very effective or heroic or within Húrin’s character as we have gotten to know him. A horn note, as we have seen in LotR, typically announces an arrival, a coming into view – not a last look back.
I think it is a weak sentence semantically and poetically; and I wonder if this isn't a good instance of how all the writing in this book is just a first draft, albeit in places a very good first draft.
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a.s.
Doriath
Jun 25 2007, 4:18pm
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(refrains from inserting smiley here in consideration of your preferences...)
That is, I don't find it a change in POV at all. In fact, Morwen is standing on the threshhold waiting for the horn call. She isn't "watching" for anything. She is specifically waiting to hear Hurin sound his horn, which signifies to them both a final farewell. He has given her a signal, the signal she is standing there waiting to receive. She "stood still by the door...until [she] heard the faint call". Then Tolkien explains to the reader what that faint call is.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Some say once you're gone, you're gone forever, and some say they're gonna come back.
Some say you rest in the arms of the Savior if sinful ways you lack.
Some say they're coming back in a garden, bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be."
~~~~~Iris DeMent
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 27 2007, 5:59pm
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First, thanks for a great discussion! Now some quick answers.
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Turin knew war was brewing, but he certainly should not have known the details, or else security was pretty lax. Loose lips sink ships, and all that. Hurin was probably breaching security a bit in his discussions with Morwen, but trusted her tight lips.
Turin was lonely because of who he was, not because of where he was, and perhaps because of who his parents were as well. Lalaith was very different during her three years, and we are told that Turin did not join her but remained apart, watching. Turin is treated as a young prince, and acts the part, which sets him apart. Alan Lee does imply that Turin is in the middle of nowhere in his sketch at the front of the chapter, but the story does not say that.
I do wonder where Tuor and his parents are all this time, though, and what about Hurin's aunt and her family? It seems like there would be some other royal children around from time to time.
As I recall the Weapontake of Rohan was much more grim, because few expected to return. I'm not sure what else you are driving at.
Some women get pregnant specifically because their men are off to war, and might not return. It might even be her duty -- an heir and a spare, as they say. I'm not sure it would matter whether Lalaith were alive, since she has only one son. And Hurin is optimistic about victory, so he would be happy to have more children, I imagine. Also it is possible that the pregnancy was not planned. They didn't have birth control, as far as I know, and it does seem that they loved each other. And Hurin is a passionate man.
I think Hurin expects a long campaign, with the usual break for winter. Apparently even Morgoth's forces do not attack in winter. And even if the allies quickly force Morgoth to retreat into Angband, they would then have to prepare for a long siege -- perhaps hundreds of years long.
The battle cry sounds better in a different language. This one sounds like an ad for Zippo, or maybe the battle cry of the Human Torch, "Flame On!" And notice it doesn't even rhyme when Hurin says it. The translation might sound better if it didn't rhyme either. How about "Light the Flame! Drive away Darkness!" Or "We didn't start the fire, it was always burning since the world's been turning ...." 
The horn is singular, the trumpets are plural. But although the horn could be a single trumpet, it could also be a non-brass instrument like Boromir's and Merry's in LotR.
Like a.s., I quite like that last sentence. The point of view does not change at all; Morwen and Turin just understand from the horn call that Hurin has passed over the shoulder of the hill.
Thanks again for all your hard work. Sorry I had trouble keeping up.
(This post was edited by Curious on Jun 27 2007, 6:02pm)
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squire
Gondolin
Jun 28 2007, 1:02pm
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Come on baby, flame my light! (as sung by James, the son of Morris)
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Flame Light!
Both words can be taken as noun or verb, and because of the concision of imperative English, the noun can be either subject or object of the verb, with the verb taking as its subject either the noun in the sentence or the understood imperative "You" (as in, "You warriors of the Edain").
Finally, to guarantee confusion, in the context of Tolkien's style here, which allows the archaic inversion, the word order gives us no clue.
The sentence could be regular English (R1. subject then verb) or (R2. verb then object) or inverted/archaic English (A1. verb, then subject) or (A2. object, then verb). So there are four possible readings, shown below. I use "you all" to make the understood imperative subject of the Edain warriors explicit, and add an appositive "you" to the noun when it is the subject.
R1. Flame (n. subj.) Light (v.) = "You Flame, come alight!"
R2. Flame (v.) Light (n. obj.) = "Ignite you all the light into flame!"
A1. Flame (v.) Light (n. subj.) = "You Light, burst into flame!"
A2. Flame (n. obj.) Light (v.) = "Light you all the flame!"
All have similar senses, of course. But the mind cannot land on just which one is intended. Probably the Elvish, with its inflected case endings, makes the correct reading clear, but this translation into English tends to baffle any reader.
Flee Night!
This is a little easier, only because "night" cannot be taken as a verb. But whether "night" is the subject or object of "Flee" depends on whether the sentence is inverted or not, and both readings are sensible.
R. Flee (v.) Night (n. obj.) = "Flee you all from the Night!"
A. Flee (v.) Night (n. subj.) = "You night, flee from us!"
Just to try to make sense of it all, I'll allow that "Flame" as a transitive verb (taking an object) is unusual, though I suggest it here because, again, Tolkien's style throughout the chapter employs unusual or archaic usages. But if we eliminate that variation, we come down to:
R1. Flame (n. subj.) Light (v.) = "You Flame, come alight!"
A1. Flame (v.) Light (n. subj.) = "You Light, burst into flame!"
A2. Flame (n. obj.) Light (v.) = "Light you all the flame!"
Then one of the readings of the second clause seems wrong: the battle cry presumably does not call on the Edain to flee from the night. So the best reading of that is:
A. Flee (v.) Night (n. subj.) = "You night, flee from us!"
If that is the second half, then we might by parallel construction decide that the first half addresses "light" the way the second half addresses "night". That is, let's take "light" as the subject:
A1. Flame (v.) Light (n. subj.) = "You Light, burst into flame!"
(This preserves the inverted diction for both halves, but that is not an argument for this interpretation: in the context of a translation of so abbreviated an expression the translator, who seems to be trying for both rhythm and rhyme, could well have balanced regular word order in one half with inverted word order in the other half.)
Anyway, my conclusion is that the battle-cry of the Edain of the North, Flame Light! Flee Night! means:
A1. Flame (v.) Light (n. subj.) = "You Light, burst into flame!"
A. Flee (v.) Night (n. subj.) = "You night, flee from us!"
Or,
Light, burst into flame! Night, flee from us!
That was a lot of work.
One final comment. I presume that the first phrase has something to do with the rising of the sun. The first sunrise is remembered in the legends of this story world. It rose for the first time and banished the eternal night in the legends of the beginning of the First Age when the Noldor returned to Middle-earth to fight Morgoth. Presumably the Edain remember that time too, though they were just awakening.
But I find "flame" to be an unfortunate choice of word in this context.
One, "flame" as a verb is awkward even when intransitive. It's really just a noun turned into a verb; it's attested (Churchill: "muskets must flame!", etc.) but we might consider "the kindling, once ignited, flamed up" to be so-so prose. To say that light "flames" or to order light "to flame", is not really very good at all.
Two, and more importantly, the light of the Sun is really qualitatively different from that of flame or fire on earth. Both offer light and heat in comparison to the cold and the dark, of course, and sometimes we read in poetry or poetic prose of the "flames of the sun" or the sun "bursting into flame" when it rises in the morning. But it's not a particularly good metaphor - especially in Middle-earth, where fire and flame, and the light thereof, is used by both Good and Evil powers, while the light of the Sun is unreservedly Good.
I would suggest instead that the battle-cry of the Edain of the North might have employed a verb that paralleled "Flee" a bit more, something like "Light, come to us!" or "Light, return!" or "Light, arise!".
After all, one of the points of this whole bit is to foreshadow Hurin's heroic battle-cry, a much more effective moment all around, I'd say, when he repeatedly screams "Day shall come again!" as he goes down fighting after killing seventy orcs in single combat.
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Aragorn_Elessar
Lindon
Jun 29 2007, 7:19pm
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(which I probably don't, since it's been years since I've studied it), a verb stem ending in -o is an imperative verb, so 'lacho' and 'drego' are almost definitely verbs. 'Calad' means 'light', and IIRC 'morn' means 'darkness' (as in Mordor) - both are nouns, so 'lacho' must be a verb and is probably the imperative form of 'to flame'. So I think you're right: "Light, burst into flame!"
However, my memory may be failing me completely here!
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jul 1 2007, 5:46pm
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A horn note, as we have seen in LotR, typically announces an arrival, a coming into view – not a last look back. Boromir sounds his horn on setting out from Rivendell, claiming that to do otherwise would make him seem like "a thief in the night".
And although I see your point about the change of focus from Morwen and Túrin to the departing Húrin in the way that the sentence is phrased, still I think it works as a last message from Húrin to his family, telling them that he has finally left the homestead. It sets up the endless waiting of Morwen for another message from Húrin after the disaster of the battle, and it seems to be echoed in Túrin's own departure from home later, when the son also looks back at the homestead and cries out in his anguish at leaving his mother, and Morwen hears "the echo of that cry in the wooded hills". It seems that the person who is leaving can still see the house for a time, although to those in the house he is soon lost to sight the woodland. So the last contact between those who are parting is an echo or a faint call on the wind. A very poignant (and very Tolkienian) image, I find.
Just for interest, here's one parting image you didn't quote, and this one happens to include a sound:
Turning back, when they reached the bottom of the green hollow, they saw Goldberry, now small and slender like a sunlit flower against the sky: she was standing still watching them, and her hands were stretched out towards them. As they looked she gave a clear call, and lifting up her hand she turned and vanished behind the hill.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered
and was lost.
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Jul 1 2007, 5:48pm)
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 3 2007, 2:27pm
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take my hand, off to never never land ..."
Metallica, "Enter Sandman"
The battle cry would work better juxtaposing light and night rather than flame and light, so why did Tolkien choose flame over light? I can think of three reasons. First, Tolkien liked to compare swords to flames (for example, Anduril was the Flame of the West). Secondly, there is the Secret Flame, which Kirby (right?) says was Tolkien's name for the Holy Spirit in Middle-earth. Finally, there is also Gandalf's Ring, Narya, the Ring of Fire, with which Gandalf may "rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill."
What also comes to mind is the scene where Glorfindel and Aragorn drive the Nazgul into the ford with torches. It always seemed strange to me that the Nazgul would be afraid of fire, but there is something ghostlike about them in FotR, and flame seems more effective than ordinary swords.
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Saelind
Menegroth
Jul 7 2007, 4:51pm
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The chapter concludes with the departure of Húrin for the war with Morgoth (pp.50-51).
A. Do you get the impression that Túrin knew nothing of what was happening until he was woken that morning? Is that likely? I don’t think he didn’t know anything, just didn’t pay attention to the activity since it did not concern him directly. And this mustering was just of Húrin’s household, not all the men of the land.
B. It’s been suggested this week that Túrin had a lonely childhood, only turning to Sador for lack of any more suitable companionship. Without even considering the village-like nature of any large manor-house, we learn here that Húrin has guards and household men, living close enough by that they ride from his courtyard. Wouldn’t they have families and children with whom Túrin would have grown up with, played with, and generally gotten some social skills from, like combing one’s hair and washing up before sitting down for dinner at the great hall?
I wonder if Tolkien just didn’t bother to write about Túrin’s interactions with other children since it wasn’t pertinent to the story as he conceived it.
C. Compare this scene to the Weapontake of Rohan, in The Lord of the Rings. What are the differences and similarities: in writing style, in the character interaction, and in the socio-economic-military setting?
The men of Rohan knew they were outnumbered and their chances of survival low. The men here believe they can win and are confident. It was indeed a spring of high hopes. I’ve done a lot of reading on the US Civil War. The soldiers from both sides in that conflict were sure of a quick victory. The war lasted for 5 years. The few descriptions I have read of the soldiers of WW I have the same sentiment. And while the Battle of Unnumbered Tears is only a 6 day battle, the devastation is similar, the loss of almost an entire generation of young men.
D. According to the timing, does it seem that Morwen and Húrin conceived a new child before or after they lost Lalaith? Does Morwen seem like the kind of woman to burden herself with an infant at a time when she is contemplating the loss of her husband and all his estate in an oncoming, hopeless war? I don’t think she got pregnant on purpose! It adds a certain pathos to the scene though.
E. What is the midwinter feast? Why does Húrin think ahead to it now? Does he imagine he won’t get back before then; or would all celebrations and feasts typically be postponed in any case for the one big one at year’s end?
As Eledhwen points out, midwinter is an important time in many cultures. It would have been a fitting day to celebrate such a victory. Also, mop up operations would have taken time as well as setting up forts to guard Angband.
F. “Lacho calad! Drego morn! Flame Light! Flee Night!” This makes my head ache, it is so bad. What about you? Why or why not? More generally, how does the climactic ending to this chapter work for you?
The “Flame Light” doesn’t work as well as “Flee Night” but I’m sure the Elvish words in Húrin’s voice would have been quite inspiring. Lee’s drawing while dramatic, isn’t a particularly good rendering of a man in action, IMHO.
G. What is the difference between trumpets and horns, if any, in Tolkien's works? I think they are rather interchangeable. They used either as a farewell or to announce the arrival of someone or an army
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