|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Istar Indigo
Bree
Jun 19 2007, 1:54pm
Post #1 of 26
(1538 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Tolkien at the University of Vermont: Week 5
|
Can't Post
|
|
Greetings all,
This is the last week of our online course and I wanted to post two queestions for my students and interested TORN members. These questions both focus on the spiritual and religious nature of The Lord of the Rings.
1. What evidence can you find of religious practices and beliefs in the romance? 2. There are actually some who read The Lord of the Rings as a type of scripture, feeling it contains a coherent moral lesson. Do you agree and what might the lesson [or lessons] be?
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jun 19 2007, 4:04pm
Post #3 of 26
(1408 views)
Shortcut
|
Just in answer to your first question:
What evidence can you find of religious practices and beliefs in the romance?
NZ Strider, responding in 2002 to a complaint in The New Republic review by Richard Jenkyns of Tom Shippey's J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century, made a pretty good list here (the link should open in about ten seconds, if not less).
However, NZS may have missed some examples, so perhaps it's best to use his work as a checklist to compare to one's own ideas.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Discuss The Children of Húrin in the Reading Room, June 11-October 14.
|
|
|
Curious
Half-elven
Jun 19 2007, 4:11pm
Post #4 of 26
(1394 views)
Shortcut
|
|
There are very few explicit references, but there are some.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Faramir and his men face West for a moment of silence before eating, and when the Oliphaunt charges them one of the Rangers says "May the Valar turn him aside!" Gandalf compares Denethor to a "heathen" king when Denethor threatens to burn himself and Faramir alive. The sapling of the new White Tree is found in an "ancient hallow," i.e. a sacred place on Mount Mindolluin visited only by the kings of Gondor. And that's about it.
I might also argue that the hobbits who annually celebrate Bilbo and Frodo's birthdays after they have departed Middle-earth are creating a new religious ritual, but there is nothing explicitly religious about it. And I believe the narrator compares Theoden to the Vala Orome when Theoden makes his last charge into battle, but the reader is unlikely to understand the reference. Similarly, few would understand that the beacon hill of Halifirien means "Holy Mountain Wood" in Old English, and no one would know from the text of LotR that Elendil is buried there.
Of course those who read The Silmarillion will realize that much of what passes for magic in LotR is really spiritual in origin. And even without reading The Silmarillion there is a definite spiritual tone to LotR. But there are very few explicit references to religious practices and beliefs.
Now if you are asking what evidence we can find of Tolkien's religious practices and beliefs, i.e. his Roman Catholic faith, that is a very different questions which depends in part upon speculation. Tolkien himself said in a letter that LotR was a fundamentally Catholic tale, but also said that the influence of his Catholicism was unconscious, not conscious. Thus Tolkien eagerly embraced suggestions that Galadriel was influenced by Mary, or that lembas resembles the holy eucharist, but also said those parallels were not in his conscious mind at the time. Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn all resemble different aspects of Christ (martyrdom, resurrection, and the descendant of David who will triumph as king), although none of them is an allegorical figure like Aslan in the Narnia books.
LotR is loved by believers and non-believers alike because it presents a spiritual story that is almost completely unattached to any organized religion, yet is pretty much in tune with Tolkien's own Roman Catholic beliefs. Once we get to The Silmarillion, it is easier to find discrepancies between Tolkien's mythos and orthodox Roman Catholic beliefs, and indeed Tolkien spent many years trying to resolve those discrepancies and may not have published The Silmarillion during his lifetime because he couldn't completely erase all such discrepancies. But in LotR it was much easier for him to gloss over the details and present something that satisfied both believers and non-believers.
Probably the biggest problem with LotR as a system of faith are the apparently-irredeemable orcs. Tolkien's admirer W.H. Auden pointed this out in a letter, and Tolkien spent a good deal of time on it in writings found in Morgoth's Ring. But he never did figure out how to explain why the orcs were apparently irredeemable -- that is, no one even thought of offering them mercy or amnesty as they did for the surrendering humans. In LotR Tolkien glosses over the problem by stating that the orcs were unwilling to surrender. After Helm's Deep, the huorns took care of the orcs, and no one asked the huorns how or why. After the unmaking of the Ring, the orcs took care of themselves in waves of mass suicide. But despite Gandalf's statement that he pitied the least of Sauron's slaves, we see precious little pity for the orcs.
Instead, Tolkien offers us Gollum, a truly pitiable bad guy, one who used to be a hobbit like Frodo. Tolkein also offers us many pitiable humans who fall under Sauron's influence, including the Army of the Dead, who redeem themselves after thousands of years of limbo. Tolkien also offers us Saruman and Grima Wormtongue, who used to be good. And Tolkien offers us Boromir and Denethor and Lobelia and Lotho Sackville-Baggins, all of whom succumb or nearly succumb to moral weaknesses, although Boromir and Lobelia redeem themselves at a heavy cost. Indeed even Theoden may be a story of redemption, although he seems to have been under the influence of Saruman's poisons or spells.
However I am not at all sure that the wisdom of Middle-earth is also wise in the Primary or Real World. Applying the rules of fantasy to real life is a dangerous proposition. Real life is much more complicated. What we can get from LotR, as Tolkien suggested in his essay "On Fairy Stories," is Recovery, Fantasy, Escape, and Consolation. We can recover our appreciation for the wonders of the Primary World. We can enjoy the fantasy of a Secondary World. We can escape our troubles and limitations in the Primary World, and perform thought experiments about what the world should be like -- thought experiments that might even affect how we behave and what we change in the Primary World. And finally we get the consolation of the Happy Ending, the hope that happy endings might not just be found in fairy tales, a sort of affirmation of faith that leads us to believe in happy endings, if not for us now then for someone someday.
As Gandalf says to Denethor, "'I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come.'" All of the characters in LotR face despair, and each of them handles it differently. But in the end LotR is Tolkien's affirmation and argument that faith and hope can conquer doubt and despair. As Tolkien said in "On Fairy Stories," a moving fairy tale, one that causes the eye to tear or the heart to race, can feel real, not just in its Secondary World but in the Primary World. And if it feels real then it can strengthen our faith and our hope.
By the way, Tolkien almost certainly did want his tale to teach a moral lesson. At one point in his letters he confessed that he had a "didactic [teaching] purpose." And when he gave up on his short-lived sequel to LotR he did so because, without the magic of LotR, it was turning into a "mere thriller."
Tolkien wrote about the world as he desired it to be. He reacted strongly to suggestions that it was an allegory because he saw little resemblance between the world he had constructed and the world in which he lived. But he arranged matters so that at the end of LotR the human race has both elvish and orcish blood in it. In the Age of Man evil and good are intermingled far more than in LotR. As Gimli and Legolas say to each other in Minas Tirith, the works of Man often fail of their promise, but seldom fail of their seed, and no one knows whether one day, against all hope, the promise of Man will be fulfilled. That message of hope is perhaps the only thing that Tolkien's Secondary World has in common with the Primary World, but I believe it is that message that motivated Tolkien to create his Secondary World and place entertaining stories in it for all those years.
As Tolkien said of Niggle's Parish, in the tale "Leaf by Niggle," a companion piece to the essay "On Fairy Stories," a well-made Secondary World is a wonderful place for convalescence, and some find their way from there to the Mountains, i.e. the deeper issues of life. LotR is meant primarily to entertain, but secondarily to provide a reasoning believer's answer to those who would counsel despair, as many did in the first half of the 20th century, and as many continue to do.
|
|
|
Curious
Half-elven
Jun 19 2007, 4:12pm
Post #5 of 26
(1377 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I can never open those old posts.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
But I think I remember what he would have said. Let me know if there is anything I missed.
|
|
|
Wynnie
Rohan
Jun 19 2007, 4:22pm
Post #6 of 26
(1396 views)
Shortcut
|
I've copy-pasted the post below. Much overlap with your list, as you'd expect.
Nick: NZ Strider (Registered User)
Date/Time: Fri, 5/10/2002 at 23:08 EDT (Sat, 5/11/2002 at 16:08 NZDT)
Browser/OS: Netscape Communicator V4.61 using Macintosh PowerPC
Subject: On Tolkien's suppression of overt religion (belief or practice) in the LotR
Message:
This is partly in answer to the negative review of Tom Shippey’s book by Richard Jenkyns which lambasted Tolkien’s invented societies as unconvincing because they had no religion and were thus unlike any historical society: available at www.powells.com/review/2002_02_07.html. Now it is clear that Tolkien purposefully suppressed overt religion. See letter Nr. 142:
"…I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like ‘religion,’ to cults or practices, in the imaginary world."
My question however is, how thoroughly did he really succeed in editing overt religion and religious belief out? I’ve gone through the LotR in my mind and tried to put together every reference to overt religion or religious belief. I’ve limited myself to just the LotR (as published); and have tried to catalogue matters neutrally (as a sort of disinterested anthropologist).
I have noted the following:
1.) There is the Standing Silence of the Gondorians before meals, a clear religious rite as it involves a sort of homage to the place described under Nr. 8 below.
2.) On Mt. Mindoluin is a "hallow" which only the King may enter. I first assumed that "hallow" was a form of "hollow" (i.e. a short, blind valley in moutainous country) though the word can, I think, mean "a sanctified area" as well. [Letter 156, p. 206, confirms that the latter is meant, by the way – strictly speaking, this is a departure from the methodological strictures outlined above.]. A sanctified area must logically be sanctified to someone or something.
3.) One of the mountains on the border between Rohan and Gondor is called Halifirien. I assume that it is territory of Gondor since the Gondorians maintain a beacon there. Halifirien is a modernised form of Anglo-Saxon "halig fyrgen," i.e. Holy Mountain. [I exclude from discussion here the story of Cirion and Éorl in Unfinished Tales which confirms the meaning of Halifirien.] Is the mountain itself holy? Or is there another "hallow" on this mountain? If so, sanctified to whom or what?
4.) When the oliphaunt charges the rangers of Ithilien, they cry "May the Valar turn him aside!" The Valar seem from this to be not-visibly present entities who might, if they were so inclined, divert the oliphaunt. Various characters call upon such an entity at various times: e.g. "A Elbereth Gilthoniel" etc.; and she seems particularly important. [To figure out from just the LotR that Elbereth is one of the Valar is possible: see Nr. 8 below.]
5.) There is also the famous cry to Earendil: Aiya Earendil elenion ancalima, "Hail, Earendil, of stars the brightest!" [The meaning of the line can be deduced without recourse to a non-existent Elvish dictionary if one knows Anglo-Saxon poetry: "eala Earendil engela beorhtast" in Cynewulf’s Christ gives the key along with Frodo’s glossed remark "Elen síla etc." = "A star shines etc." Admittedly, this takes a bit of work.] Frodo expects that calling on Earendil may do some good, but as Earendil demonstrably started off as a mere denizen of Middle-earth, I have put him into a separate category from Elbereth and the Valar. [His original status and rise can be deduced from Bilbo’s poem about him as well as from Strider’s summary on Weathertop.]
6.) Something silly: Sam once exclaims, "Lor’ bless me!"
7.) Moving from the ridiculous to the sublime: In the Appendix Aragorn assures Arwen that "beyond the circles of the world is more than memory"; i.e. if Arwen does not die, but goes into the West instead (as an immortal Elf), she will have only the "memory" of her marriage and her husband. If she dies and leaves the circles of the world (as a mortal Man), she will have more than mere memories. This indicates a clear belief in some sort of afterlife.
8.) Bilbo refers to a "Blessed Realm" where, apparently, Elbereth, whom the Elves call upon, dwells. It does not seem a stretch to connect this with Faramir’s reference to "Númenór that was and Elvenhome which is *and that which is beyond Elvenhome and shall ever be*." (Emphasis mine) Furthermore, Bilbo’s poem on Earendil describes a journey from Middle-earth to, first, a place called "Eldamar" or "Elvenhome" and thence to another place called "hidden land" (presumably identical with "Valinor" mentioned one stanza earlier) where there are "timeless halls" and an "Elder King." Elbereth dwells there. A minor bit of linguistic ingenuity might connect "Valar" with "Valinor"; Elbereth would then be one of the Valar. Valinor aka the Blessed Realm or hidden land lies beyond Elvenhome aka Eldamar, just as Faramir describes their relative positions. Elvish, Hobbitish, and Human beliefs harmonise perfectly.
9.) Gandalf, when speaking of Sauron’s not having extracted information from Pippin after the latter looked into the palantír, says, "you have been saved, and all your friends too, mainly by good fortune, *as it is called*." (Emphasis mine) Apparently, Gandalf views "good fortune" as just a name for something else, presumably something that works with a purpose. See 10.) below.
10.) Various characters discuss Frodo’s possession of the Ring. Gandalf explains: "Behind that [Bilbo’s picking up of the Ring] there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was *meant* to find the Ring, and *not* by its maker. In which case you also were *meant* to have it." (Emphasis Tolkien’s) If not meant by its maker, than by whom?
Frodo asks of his possession of the Ring: "Why was I chosen?" Gandalf does not answer the question, but confirms the appropriateness of Frodo’s choice of word: "you have been chosen." Chosen by whom?
At the Council of Elrond Aragorn tells Frodo: "It has been ordained that you should hold it [i.e. the Ring] for a while." Ordained by whom?
11.) Gandalf tells Denethor, when the latter contemplates suicide, that "authority is not given you…to order the hour of your death, and only the heathen kings of old…" Who has not given the authority? What makes the kings of old "heathen"? And what is (ideally) supposed to make Denethor better than a "heathen"?
To summarise: There are occasional sanctuaries/holy places (Nrr. 2 & 3), repeated calls both to preterhuman characters called Valar (Nr. 4) and to one Middle-earth dweller who somehow ascended to preterhuman status (Nr. 5), and one clear religious rite (Nr. 1). There is belief in an afterlife (Nr. 7) and in a "Blessed Realm" (Nr. 8) which is hidden, called Valinor, and is home to preterhuman characters called Valar one of whom is Elbereth and another of whom is "Elder King." Furthermore, there is someone or something who/which means for Frodo to have the Ring, chooses him as Ringbearer, and ordains that he hold the Ring. This someone or something stands higher than Sauron or the Ring and can override either’s purpose at will (Nr. 10). I hesitate to press Nr. 6 into service here to explain the "someone or something." Nr. 9, a rational purpose which lurks behind so-called good fortune, probably belongs here as well. Finally, there is a concept of "heathen" (Nr. 11). The basic beliefs seem to be shared by Hobbits (Bilbo, Frodo), Men (Aragorn, Faramir), and Elves (who sing songs of the Blessed Realm and in whose language one calls upon Elbereth).
I write this, of course, as a sort of neutral anthropological observer unaware of Christianity/Catholicism or of Tolkien’s own intensely held faith. After all this, is it fair to say, as does Jenkyns, that the societies of Middle-earth hold no religious beliefs? To what extent are these things "slipping past" Tolkien’s self-proclaimed censorship of overt religion? To what extent is he (in despite of his self-proclaimed censorship) planting clues that we may track down and put together?
Finally, are there additional references in the LotR (as published) to overt religion or religious belief which I have missed? I’m sure there must be – I have been working mostly from memory with only occasional glances at the text. In particular, is there a way to distinguish the purpose/power/entity behind Nr. 10 from the Valar and their Elder King? I can’t think of one, but I’ve probably missed the clue that clears that up.
None such shall return again.
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Valinor
Jun 19 2007, 5:09pm
Post #8 of 26
(1369 views)
Shortcut
|
|
One reference that NZS didn't include
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
is the belief in an afterlife as expressed by Theoden:
"Farewell, Master Holbytla!" he said. "My body is broken. I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed."
That, plus the burial mounds at Edoras, suggest something like the pre-Christian beliefs of the Anglo-Saxons.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jun 19 2007, 6:04pm
Post #9 of 26
(1370 views)
Shortcut
|
been rereading the 2002 Reading Room discussion of the "Narn i Hin Húrin" from Unfinished Tales, that ran just before NZS posted on this subject?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Discuss The Children of Húrin in the Reading Room, June 11-October 14.
|
|
|
Curious
Half-elven
Jun 19 2007, 6:42pm
Post #10 of 26
(1353 views)
Shortcut
|
Results vary, depending on the computer used and the time of day.
|
|
|
weaver
Half-elven
Jun 19 2007, 7:27pm
Post #11 of 26
(1373 views)
Shortcut
|
|
a different kind of religious system, perhaps...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
We had a discussion awhile back about sacred spaces in LOTR -- one thought was that in our (western) society we think of buildings as housing sacred spaces, whereas in Middle Earth the sacred is to be found in nature, or in places where buildings blend with nature. I would argue that religious practices are also more spontaneous or natural in LOTR -- no formal church services, no creeds, etc. are required. Connecting with the higher powers happens more naturally -- characters allow that kind of power to enter in, rather than "request" it, and through the change in wind, or through smells, or flowers, or stars or other natural observations characters often acknowledge that there is a connection with something "else" that feels good or bad to them. Gandalf never labels what it is, but does point out throughout the tale that those things are at work. Engaging in a spiritual connection in LOTR is not a separate activity, but a constant and accessible opportunity.
Weaver
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Valinor
Jun 19 2007, 7:50pm
Post #12 of 26
(1367 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Perhaps we could even go so far as to say
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
that it's the very fact that the sacred is not confined to particular spaces in Middle-Earth that allows it to be experienced everywhere. Concrete religious or sacred spaces would confine the sacred to those places, and set religious experience apart from "reality", as in our world. Whereas the very absence of overt religion makes it possible for the religious experience to be lived in the here-and-now of the story - so that for example, Frodo's temptation on Mount Doom, the "rapture" of Frodo and Sam by the Eagles, and the crossing of the Sundering Seas, although they happen in the real world of the story, can also be interpreted as parts of the Christian story of death and redemption.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
|
|
|
weaver
Half-elven
Jun 19 2007, 7:57pm
Post #13 of 26
(1356 views)
Shortcut
|
|
what good "out of the church" thinking...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
That's what I was trying to say but not saying it very well. Thank you for this!
There's that great anecdote in Letters where Tolkien relates the comments of someone (probably a famous someone!) about how there was "light" or spirituality "everywhere" in LOTR -- that not "containing it" allowed it to diffuse throughout the story.
I have no time to look it up -- can anyone recall more about the Letter I'm recalling?
Weaver
|
|
|
a.s.
Valinor
Jun 21 2007, 12:27am
Post #14 of 26
(1351 views)
Shortcut
|
|
it always---ALWAYS---comes back to free will!!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
1. What evidence can you find of religious practices and beliefs in the romance?
Very few, they are mostly hidden references. The comprehensive list from NZ Strider has already been referenced, but I find a much more subtle religious reference underlying the journey from Rivendell to Mordor. Tolkien used specific dates (Dec 25 to March 25) which have specific connotations to traditional Catholics. I once compared the Christmas story to Frodo's journey here and particularly when one realizes that March 25 is the traditional Lady Day (Feast of the Annunciation), the day Jesus was conceived and the traditional New Year's Day, this becomes strikingly obvious.
In other words, this allusion was unknown and irrelevant to the characters (and even to readers) and yet is still a striking allusion which is important to Tolkien and obvious to believers.
Specific religious practice or belief was left out of the story; and yet, the story is powerfully about certain beliefs, which brings us to question two:
2. There are actually some who read The Lord of the Rings as a type of scripture, feeling it contains a coherent moral lesson. Do you agree and what might the lesson [or lessons] be?
I don't use LOTR as a "scripture", but strongly feel it contains a moral lesson. LOTR is about the interplay between Providence, free will, and the necessity of grace. I've learned more about the concept of free will by contemplating Middle Earth than in all my years of schooling and Church attendence.
And yet, the strength and beauty of LOTR is that you don't need to even contemplate Providence, free will, or any other moral lesson to love the story. It's great on its own merits, as a story, and in fact, that's why we love it---I believe.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Some say once you're gone, you're gone forever, and some say they're gonna come back.
Some say you rest in the arms of the Savior if sinful ways you lack.
Some say they're coming back in a garden, bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be."
~~~~~Iris DeMent
|
|
|
Istar Indigo
Bree
Jun 21 2007, 1:34pm
Post #15 of 26
(1324 views)
Shortcut
|
That is a pretty comprehensive list. I would like to check it against the text at some point.
Cheers!
|
|
|
Istar Indigo
Bree
Jun 21 2007, 2:15pm
Post #16 of 26
(1581 views)
Shortcut
|
What do you all think about Quickbeam's wonderful song of the Rowan trees? I've always read it as a type of hymn, keeping in mind that the term cwicbeam in pre-Norman England referred to the rowan and the mountain ash and that Anglo-Saxons and their continental ancestors believed that the rowan was linked to Thor and his resurrection [quicken=to bring to life]. In the eighth-century field remedy [aecerbot], crosses of quickbeam [likely rowan] were planted underneath the sod at the four corners of a field to promote fecundity.
In the Two Towers, Bregolad lifts his arms in a cruciform posture and sings to the rowan.
"Whenever he saw a rowan-tree he halted a while with his arms stretched out, and sang, and swayed as he sang."
[TT, Book 3, Treebeard]
This seems to be evidence of a far older spirituality among the ents. The phrase "stretched out" recalls Christ's posture and many a saint/martyr that followed the via christi. You can find the phrasing "sing hine athenedum earmum" [sing it with arms outstretched] in many Old English prayers to Christ and to his cross.
The aecerbot is a wonderful example of the fusion of pre- and post-conversion practices within Germanic Christianity in England. Tolkien very likely read it and knew it well.
|
|
|
Curious
Half-elven
Jun 21 2007, 3:27pm
Post #17 of 26
(1338 views)
Shortcut
|
|
That's very cool, but not at all explicit.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Based on Tolkien's letters, I imagine that he would embrace the Christian reference but protest that he did not do it consciously.
But I find his letters suspect, because he seemed so eager to show that LotR was more Christian than non-Christian. So he attempted to squelch all speculation about non-Christian influences on LotR and agreed with all speculation about Christian influences, even though he admitted that it must have happened without his conscious knowledge or intent. Well, if Christian influences could creep into LotR, why not non-Christian influences?
As I understand it, the mythology underlying The Silmarillion and LotR bore little similarity to Christianity when Tolkien first wrote about it. Christianity may very well have influenced LotR, though. After all, in "On Fairy-stories" Tolkien says that he believes the Gospel story is the model fairy story, except of course that he also believed it was historically true. But since Tolkien went out of his way to bury any Christian references in LotR, we have to look hard, and add a fair amount of speculation, in order to see Christian references in LotR. And I think the non-Christians who embrace LotR as a non-Christian book are well within their rights to do so.
I believe Tolkien tried his hardest to make The Silmarillion more compatible with Christianity after he had published LotR, it became a success, and against all expectations he was granted a contract to publish The Silmarillion. At that point he had already protested in several letters that LotR was a fundamentally Catholic tale, something which is not at all obvious to the casual reader but made Tolkien feel better when corresponding with fellow Catholics. I imagine that Tolkien realized he could not hide the non-Christian mythology of The Silmarillion if it was published, so instead he tried to make it more compatible with Christian beliefs, which proved so difficult that he never did publish The Silmarillion during his lifetime.
Posthumous publication of an incomplete tale, including notes indicating that he was in the process of revising everything to make it more compatible with orthodox Christianity, suited Tolkien's legacy quite well. Despite the fact that The Silmarillion has many resemblances to non-Christian religions, those who read the letters and notes Christopher Tolkien has chosen to publish cannot accuse J.R.R. Tolkien of being irreligious or unorthodox. Yet at the same time many non-Christians have embraced Tolkien's mythology as an alternative to Catholicism or other orthodox religions, rather than a gateway into such beliefs. J.R.R. Tolkien and his son Christopher have neatly managed the legacy so that both Catholics and non-Catholics embrace J.R.R. Tolkien's writings as their own.
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Valinor
Jun 21 2007, 3:35pm
Post #18 of 26
(1334 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The original question wasn't about Christianity
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
but about religion. The Quickbeam information Indigo Istari has provided (which I find fascinating) might be better viewed as pre-Christian rather than Christian (even if, as II says, early Christians absorbed some of these traditions). But Christian or no, it still counts as religion, surely? In the same way, Theoden's few words about going to his fathers as he dies are also surely an example of pre-Christian belief, but they still count as religion, for me.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
|
|
|
Curious
Half-elven
Jun 21 2007, 3:56pm
Post #19 of 26
(1330 views)
Shortcut
|
that Quickbeam was dancing in front of rowan trees because of his religion, but then again I don't see any contrary evidence either. All the fascinating information about rowan trees and praying with arms open implies that Quickbeam's practice evokes religious practices in the Primary World. But it doesn't prove one way or another what Quickbeam was thinking when he danced.
I agree with you that Theoden's last words say something about his religious beliefs, although they say little about religious practices. In fact Tolkien glosses almost over any chance for us to see religious practices in LotR. We don't see any wedding, so we don't see whether anyone presided over weddings. We do see Theoden's funeral, but as far as I can tell there is no explicit reference in that funeral to religious practices or beliefs.
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jun 21 2007, 4:00pm
Post #20 of 26
(1336 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Tom Shippey has observed of Théoden's funeral...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
that its omissions are telling: certain pagan religious aspects of early Germanic funerals do not appear.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Discuss The Children of Húrin in the Reading Room, June 11-October 14.
|
|
|
Curious
Half-elven
Jun 21 2007, 4:36pm
Post #21 of 26
(1319 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Which tells us something about
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Tolkien's religious beliefs (definitely not pagan) but little about the beliefs or practices of the Rohirrim.
|
|
|
Modtheow
Lorien
Jun 22 2007, 4:42am
Post #22 of 26
(1310 views)
Shortcut
|
When Quickbeam sings to a rowan tree with outstretched arms, is he singing/praying for something? The fecundity that Thor’s tree was supposed to bestow? This would be understandable to some extent, given that the Entwives are lost. Quickbeam also says that the oldest of the rowan-trees around his home were planted by the Ents for the Entwives, "but they looked at them and smiled and said that they knew where whiter blossom and richer fruit were growing." So their rejection of the rowan would help to explain the lack of fertility among the Ents.
I like the idea that Tolkien might have taken the Old English aecerbot charm, a mix of pre and post-Conversion beliefs, and worked backwards from that ritual to imagine a precursor or a source. Quickbeam is not a Christian crucifix or a praying saint, but his posture foreshadows later Christian imagery; the rowan trees are not identified as the special trees of the Nordic god Thor, but they are special enough to stop Quickbeam in his tracks, possibly foreshadowing the later beliefs of pagan medieval Europeans. If you start with the idea that Quickbeam is calling on some spiritual powers in the rowan by singing with arms outstretched, then you can see the scene as a type that will be fulfilled later in time. Sort of like an asterisk spirituality, analogous to the asterisk forms that Shippey writes about.
|
|
|
a.s.
Valinor
Jun 22 2007, 11:10am
Post #23 of 26
(1326 views)
Shortcut
|
|
arms outstretched...like a tree
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
"...and their red berries in the autumn were a burden, and a beauty and a wonder."
It's interesting to think of Quickbeam's homage to the rowans as a spiritual exercise or worship of some kind. I don't think his posture is meant to allude to crucifixion, though. I think his arms are outstretched like a tree. But that doesn't negate the possibility of a kind of religious significance to this episode.
I wonder, though, because clearly Quickbeam is an Ent made to resemble a rowan tree. And some of the Ents are becoming more tree-like. There is poignance in this communion between rowans and rowan-like Ent, each becoming more like the other. I've always thought this was just Tolkien's portrait of how the Ents will just become more and more treelike until we later humans living in our diminished world with fewer forests won't be able to tell a Quickbeam from a rowan. Quickbeam will become less and less "quick" and more and more rooted among the rowans he loves.
Why does he call the rowans "the people of the Rose"?
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Some say once you're gone, you're gone forever, and some say they're gonna come back.
Some say you rest in the arms of the Savior if sinful ways you lack.
Some say they're coming back in a garden, bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be."
~~~~~Iris DeMent
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jun 23 2007, 4:20am
Post #25 of 26
(1299 views)
Shortcut
|
Thanks for involving us in your class. I hope you and your students enjoyed discussing LotR here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Discuss The Children of Húrin in the Reading Room, June 11-October 14.
|
|
|
|
|
1
