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macfalk
Valinor
Oct 31 2010, 3:54pm
Post #51 of 82
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On topic this idea is great //
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The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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Huan71
Lorien
Oct 31 2010, 4:17pm
Post #52 of 82
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for, in spite of what pJ says, Middle earth did _not_ 'originate' in New Zealand, but much further back in time, and much farther away, in the English Midlands. (Which is not to say that I'd feel happy about the idea of a 'theme park' or something of the kind in the UK, either).
....Someone else who is thinking the same as i do....but has the guts to say it out loud .
I'm afraid that, for me, middle earth will always be N.W. Europe, with it's birthplace in the UK....And, what's more, it's an attempt at a mythology set in these lands...
NOT New Zealand !
I'm glad they've got the movies and know they will do a fantastic job....But, i'm sorry, New Zealand is NOT middle earth
Thank you geordie...
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Oct 31 2010, 4:44pm
Post #53 of 82
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Middle-earth is Middle-earth: It is in our imaginations and was planted there by Tolkien.
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all others are substitutes, imitations and approximations. It is no land of this world, though it finds strength in its familiarity.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Oct 31 2010, 4:48pm)
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Oct 31 2010, 4:54pm
Post #54 of 82
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- on the BBC website (let's see if I can get this right  )
www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-11617860
- hope that works. Now let me see if I can cut and paste - there!
>Taylor also read a letter from Peter Jackson thanking people for their support.
"This is where Middle Earth was born and this is where it should stay," he continued.<
(This post was edited by geordie on Oct 31 2010, 4:59pm)
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Oct 31 2010, 5:02pm
Post #55 of 82
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Well considering he's a film maker
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and he made the first live-action film with Middle-Earth in it, that's probably the perspective he's speaking from. I'm not sure why he'd have to qualify the statement any further. 
King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim?
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Oct 31 2010, 5:04pm
Post #56 of 82
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"Middle-earth is Middle-earth: It is in our imaginations and was planted there by Tolkien"
That's right - though only up to a point. - in the Prologue, Tolkien tells us that the part of Middle earth in which LotR and TH is precisely set is 'the North-west of the Old World, west of the Sea'.
However, that's not really the point I was making. My point is that Tolkien's Middle earth was around a long time before pJ and crew got their hands on it, and I'll be damned if I'll stand by and watch someone else take credit for it. If that's what Jackson meant, of course.
(rant over).
(This post was edited by geordie on Oct 31 2010, 5:09pm)
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Oct 31 2010, 5:15pm
Post #57 of 82
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Oct 31 2010, 5:23pm
Post #58 of 82
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- of course. But I think there's a chance he meant just what he said; and I for one can't let that pass without comment. BTW - Huan mentioned having the guts to say something like that, here. It took me a couple of days to work up the courage to come onto these boards and post that, I can tell you. Which will show, I hope, that I've thought this out, and it wasn't written in haste!
(This post was edited by geordie on Oct 31 2010, 5:27pm)
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Oct 31 2010, 5:35pm
Post #59 of 82
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I'm not sure how he could have meant it any other way
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have you watched the "making of" footage for the LOTR films (especially the Fellowship)? I mean it's obvious the man knows who wrote the story and where he was from and what the man was drawing from. He'd have to be deliberately forgetting all that he's shown he's aware of or maybe be suffering from senility. Both of those options seem very unlikely.
King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim?
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Oct 31 2010, 5:55pm
Post #60 of 82
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his comment about Middle-earth originating in NZ clanged with me, but it certainly got the crowd going.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Oct 31 2010, 6:32pm
Post #61 of 82
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"have you watched the "making of" footage for the LOTR films (especially the Fellowship)?"
Yes. I ain't daft, you know; nor ignorant of these things.
" He'd have to be deliberately forgetting all that he's shown he's aware of or maybe be suffering from senility. Both of those options seem very unlikely."
Or, as I've said, he might just be marking his territory, and indulging in a bit of chest-beating. As Ataahua says, it got the crowd going, and that I suspect is what he wanted to do. There's an air of triumphalism here, which is to be expected I suppose, given the events of the last few weeks. But that's no reason to turn facts on their heads, and to expect folk to swallow it.
But I've said this already in this thread, so I'm willing to let the matter drop.
(This post was edited by geordie on Oct 31 2010, 6:36pm)
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Oct 31 2010, 7:32pm
Post #62 of 82
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I don't think you have to be daft
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not to watch the "making of" stuff for LOTR. Neither of my parents, my brothers, nor most of my friends like watching that sort of stuff for any movie let alone LOTR. I genuinely was just asking, not implying anything about you when I asked.
King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim?
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Oct 31 2010, 9:12pm
Post #63 of 82
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Just to add another layer of confusion
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As you say, when there was a suggestion of some kind of permanent exhibition, Christopher Tolkien (rightly, in my mind) objected. But there is another layer to the possibility of some sort of theme park, that adds to the confusion. Saul Zaentz takes the position that he owns the rights to any kind of Middle-earth theme park; when he entered into the agreement with Miramax to licence the film rights to LOTR and (partly) The Hobbit (which was subsequently transferred to New Line and then Warners), he made sure to include a separate agreement that made sure to make clear that he retained the rights to any theme park. However, it is not at all clear from the original 1969 agreements that such rights were actually sold by Tolkien, and I believe (though I don't know for sure) that Christopher and the Estate takes the position (which I would support) that the Estate controls such rights, and thus would have the right to prevent anyone from proceeding with a theme park project.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
www.arda-reconstructed.com
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macfalk
Valinor
Oct 31 2010, 9:22pm
Post #64 of 82
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I have long wondered who this guy is - he seems to be a pretty important person (with a hard spelt name!) since he owns rights here and there and I know we had some discussions about if TH would get going soon the rights would revert to him. Who is this guy really? 
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Oct 31 2010, 9:22pm
Post #65 of 82
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Then I assume it would be impossible
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to just base the theme park on the films and not on the books? I ask because, for several years, the rights to make videogames based on the books and videogames based on the films were held by competing publishers. That's why The Lord of the Rings Online wasn't able to use the likenesses of the actors from the films, for example.
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macfalk
Valinor
Oct 31 2010, 9:34pm
Post #66 of 82
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Tolkien based most of LOTR on England, no question about it - if I could turn the clock back 15 years without seeing PJ's LOTR or anything, if I had to pick my dream location for the shoot, it would have been in England. But since PJ & co did such a remarkable hard work down there on LOTR and it paid off, I think it would be only right to set The Hobbit there. I think they've earned it. (and I don't think brits can complain, NZ is an old english settlement as everybody knows  )
England was no doubt the setting for LOTR - but not entirerly, if I may say so? As a scandinavian I see a lot of resemblance to our old norse mythology, especially in dwarves where Tolkien were obviously greatly inspried (just look at the god Thor with the hammer - Thorin - the dwarves in general have very close names to the old norse gods and heroes in the legends) and also at the geology, landscapes and so forth. Rohan was also very un-english to me. I think it's fair to claim that LOTR isn't entirerly based on England... now i'll stop rambling!
ööll
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Oct 31 2010, 10:11pm
Post #67 of 82
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how Tolkien based his dwarves loosely on Scandinavian mythology and culture. The Scandinavian people are more like elves than dwarves.
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macfalk
Valinor
Oct 31 2010, 10:14pm
Post #68 of 82
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Why so? We were vikings in the past! A lot like dwarves IMO //
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The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
(This post was edited by macfalk on Oct 31 2010, 10:15pm)
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Oct 31 2010, 10:44pm
Post #69 of 82
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And dwarves hate water... don't they? 
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Oct 31 2010, 10:49pm
Post #70 of 82
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- That is, I'm pretty sure I didn't say that Tolkien based LotR on England; at least not all of it. What I said was that Tolkien's Middle-earth has its origins way back before TH or LotR. For example, I have a copy of a book of poetry called A Northern Venture, published in 1923, when Tolkien was teaching at Leeds University. Tolkien has three poems in this slim volume, including one called 'The Happy Mariners', in which we hear of Elves sailing, following Earendel into the West, to 'islands blest'. 'Earendel' is how he spelt that name at that time. And of course there were other, earlier poems to do with Middle earth, going back before the First World War.
And of course England wasn't the setting for LotR. I agree with you there - while the Shire is obviously based on English village life (from around the time of Victoria's Diamond Jubilee, Tolkien tells us), the rest of the landscapes through which the story moves is most obviously not. As I quoted earlier, Tolkien regards the dwelling place of hobbits at that time as being where they are to be found in the present day - the North-west of the Old World, east of the Sea. And that is where T. took his 'baseline' - Hobbiton, which, he reckoned was on around the same latitude as Oxford, so making Minas Tirith around the latitude of Florence. That sort of thing.
But Middle earth is not only based on modern-day geography, however loosely. A major factor here is is Language; and the existence of language groups. So for example, T. writes that we don't hear much of the language of the Men of the Long Lake, or of Dale, except in the names of the dwarves who come from those parts - and that this language is based on Scandanavian languages. Tolkien blithely admitted to 'bagging' the names of Thorin and co. - most of them anyway - from a list of names from one of the Eddas. (I think that's right?)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Oct 31 2010, 11:06pm
Post #71 of 82
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... rather dissatisfied with the names he had given the dwarves, afterwards - or did I just imagine that?
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Huan71
Lorien
Oct 31 2010, 11:21pm
Post #72 of 82
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But since PJ & co did such a remarkable hard work down there on LOTR and it paid off, I think it would be only right to set The Hobbit there. I think they've earned it. (and I don't think brits can complain, NZ is an old english settlement as everybody knows )
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Huan71
Lorien
Oct 31 2010, 11:24pm
Post #73 of 82
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I've added some more (contentious) points...
Any (lone) voice of support you may be able to offer will be much appreciated!
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squire
Half-elven
Oct 31 2010, 11:39pm
Post #74 of 82
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The Wikipedia article is rather sketchy and disjointed, as always, but it does cover several of the bases.
Saul Zaentz is now almost 90 years old. He has been a producer of music and film projects since the 1950s. In music he specialized in jazz; in films he prefers adaptations from literary books and plays rather than original scripts. He has three Best Picture Oscars, for One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Amadeus, and The English Patient. He was the force behind Ralph Bakshi's attempt to animate The Lord of the Rings in the 1970s.
Although he clearly has a good artistic sensibility, Zaentz is no fool about money, and has staged some epic fights over rights issues: one with John Fogerty over some Creedence Clearwater Revival songs; and of course, the struggles to make live-action films of The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. Although since the 1990s he has leased his rights to make the new films of Tolkien's books, he retained the rights to the associated merchandise, and in general we have to guess he is quite a wealthy guy. It looks to me, from his career, that he has exquisite taste in film, song, and books. He is not some ignorant Hollywood greedhead.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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macfalk
Valinor
Oct 31 2010, 11:40pm
Post #75 of 82
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Oh, I did not know that! That's interesting indeed.
I came and thought about it pretty much (yes, the names sounding similar, but this too) when I read a scrap of text of the Edda where the god Oden sends his two ravens, Hugin and Munin, to watch and "spy" over the realms for him. This gave me a flashback to the events in The Hobbit when Thorin and Dain have their little bird-communication. As I love birds, it came to my mind that maybe it was when Tolkien studied Norse mythology for the first time, maybe his interest for birds emerged (plenty of important birds in norse mythology). As we know there are plenty of them in The Hobbit, LOTR and his other stories (Giant Eagles, thrushes, crowes, Crebain of Dunland, etc). I have zero confirmation of this though, or that Tolkien had a big interest for birds, it's just a feeling I got after reading many of his books.
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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