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SandWitch King
Rohan
Feb 22 2007, 12:01am
Post #1 of 36
(1398 views)
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What makes a forum function?
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There are many message boards in the world, few of them of much interest to me.
The new format here has really breathed life into the boards, which may be temporary.
I think the broader topic possibilities makes some nice breathing room here and people are branching out. Hades! I am even watching the Arena forum, which both surprises and amuses me.
Anyway, I have recently tried to get into another forum, for another set of books I love, and I just can't.
If anybody has any ideas, thoughts or theories on the success and failure of a message board community, I would love to read it.
Once upon a time I was MrCere. I still am but this name is for posting and being part of the community while that one is for official business. 8-)
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WhiteLadyEowyn
Rivendell
Feb 22 2007, 12:49am
Post #2 of 36
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I think that alot of what makes a message board "work" is variety in the type of people that post there.
We have that here, with our message boards. We have young and old(er), male and female, straight and not-so-straight... members from all the time zones here in the states, many of the ones in Canada, and from all over the world!
Many of us have also met each other, which makes us want to keep in touch even more.
There is also a MUCH deeper meaning behind Tolkien's works. They're about love and sacrifice, friendship in its highest meaning.
Drawn together by our love of those written words, we find much in common with one another before we ever meet face to face.
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Noneoftheabove
Lorien
Feb 22 2007, 12:49am
Post #3 of 36
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Not familiar with the mechanics of a forum, but I can say what makes a good forum.
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It is the people.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 22 2007, 1:23am
Post #4 of 36
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The average life of a board is about a year and a half. By then it has usually fallen to troll storms. Or gotten so inbred that conversations are mostly shorthand gibberish. Or become so insular that newbies are chased off with pitchforks and torches. Or become merely a message center for a small group of friends. Then it simply dries up and blows away. Good moderators can keep away the trolls, enforce understandable language, protect newbies, and keep the forums on-topic. As a result good people feel comfortable coming in to visit and, more importantly, they want to stay. A well-moderated board is very, very rare. TORn is very well moderated. It's the best I've seen on the internet. It's longevity is practically unprecedented.
"In the beginning there was nothing.
And God said, 'Let there be Light.'
And there was still nothing.
But now you could see it."
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Feb 22 2007, 1:25am)
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sevilodorf
Tol Eressea
Feb 22 2007, 1:31am
Post #5 of 36
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It is a combination of the people and the "board".
There must be a core group who are willing to put the time and effort into keeping the place alive -- moderators, admins, etc.-- as well a larger group who participate on a regular basis (too my shame I am more lurker than poster).
A willingness on the part of the participants to encourage and listen to alternate points of view.
The board itself must be functional in that it is maintained in both terms of accessibility and "policing" for both topic and manners.
The topic of the board must be broad enough to allow multiple viewpoints, exploration and review. Tolkien, for many of us, has been a regular facet of our lives for years (decades) before the movies/computers/online community.
Another point that has added to this community has been the opportunities to meet and participate in multiple events in real life. Line parties, Oscar parties, concerts, ORC and ELF conventions, group moots, etc.
IMHO the most important of all the above is the core group that keeps the place running... TPTB and the admins and moderators.
Sev's home away from home: http://burpingtroll.com
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houndrock
The Shire
Feb 22 2007, 2:01am
Post #6 of 36
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It's a combination of the people, developing trust, and having the freedom to be who you really are without being - well - policed.
It's being able to love the person one minute and want to smack them the next - because that's how relationships in the real world work.
And smaller (less than 100) is definitely better because it allows you to develop a level of intimacy that is hard to develop with hundreds and hundreds of posters.
(This post was edited by houndrock on Feb 22 2007, 2:06am)
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Patty
Immortal
Feb 22 2007, 2:15am
Post #7 of 36
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Many of us have also met each other, which makes us want to keep in touch even more.
Yes, I think this is a good part of it. I've met several of my sibs, and that does make me look out for their posts, and enjoy this way of keeping in touch with them. Even when you share interests (as for example with LOTRplaza-I post there) I didn't stay interested and keep posting cause I haven't met any of them. It's different here, I've tortured many here with my real life presence.
Welcome to Rivendell, Patty Baggins
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 22 2007, 2:57am
Post #8 of 36
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;)
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 22 2007, 3:27am
Post #9 of 36
(1236 views)
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I could probably write a paper on this.
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"Our chief need is a topic...a topic and people...people and a topic....
Our two needs are a topic and people... and moderators with a vision....
Our three needs are a topic, people, and moderators with a vision...and an almost fanatical devotion to tradition....
Our four... no...
Amongst our required... Amongst our requirements...
are such elements as a topic, people...
I'll come in again.
*ahem*
Amongst our requirements are such diverse elements as: a topic, people, moderators with a vision, an almost fanatical devotion to tradition, and quality newbies....oh sticklebacks!"
In my experience, a good board needs:
1. A good topic to discuss. A good and lasting board needs a good and lasting focus, something that will interest a variety of people for a considerable length of time. If it's too narrow, or doesn't have a constant supply of new news, people will run out of things to talk about too quickly, and the board will die or become a chat center for a core group of friends. When that happens, newbies (who generally find the board because of interest in the original topic) no longer feel welcome and the board will eventually die of attrition as boredom or RL reduce the number of active members. Tolkien is an ideal topic, because there's just so much material available, from the easily accessible (Hobbit, LOTR) to the arcane (HOME) and his work appeals to people of all ages, types and interests. We started with lovers of the books and gained lovers of the movies, so we've got something of interest to practically anyone. Our Reading Room and Movie Discussion are very different places, and yet people here can move back and forth between them at will. That's rare and special among MBs. I don't know any other site that does diversity so well as here.
2. People. If you find a good topic, you may be lucky enough to attract a marvelous group of intelligent, witty, enthusiastic, friendly souls who will inhabit the shell of your board and turn it into a live community with a character and atmosphere all its own. TORN is what it is because of the TORNadoes.
3. Moderators with a vision. I think Darkstone makes some excellent points about the role that moderators play on a board, so I won't repeat those here, but there's another aspect to good adminning, and that is that the moderators need to have a clear idea of what the place should be like. This determines how conflict between members and "gray areas" are handled. One of the main reasons that we moderate these boards the way we do, and are able to do so with a maximum of cooperation and friendship among the Admins - and between the Admins and the rest of the TORNadoes - is that all of us are determined that the boards should be a certain kind of place. We think that this should be a place where all ages are welcome (family board), where vehemence and forceful language should be focused on the topic, not one's fellow posters (no personal attacks, flaming, insults) and humor is encouraged at all times (where else do semi-trollish posts get sidetracked into pun threads?). When confronted with a gray area, decisions are made by thinking "Is this a direction we want to see the boards as a whole go? Will it improve or diminish the enjoyment of others here?" The point of the boards isn't us, the Admins, it's you, our marvelous TORNsibs. We want to set boundaries that protect the ability of the average TORNado to wander in and talk Tolkien (and OT, now) without having to wade through a lot of conflict and interference to get there. The limits have seemed narrow at times to some, but I for one am utterly convinced that they are a major part of making these boards seem welcoming and accessible to people.
4. Traditions and character. If your marvelous people stay for long, you will grow traditions. The TORN boards would have withered and died long ago, were it not for some of our time-honored traditions. What would Main be without Fiesta, quiz threads, song parodies, TIME, pun threads, etc? Or the RR and Movie without ongoing chapter and scene discussions? They make sure that people know there is something new coming, something worth checking in for later. Even if there's nothing interesting on the boards today, tomorrow there will be _____ to look forward to. And anyone who thinks of a new idea may begin a great new tradition.
5. Newbies. Though the old fogies in a community may sometimes resent it, to thrive a community needs to grow. There needs to be at least an occasional infusion of new personalities, perspectives and ideas to spark new conversation. And in order to attract quality newbies, you've got to have some sort of advertisement, whether word of mouth from members, or by being attached to a website, or by recommendation links from other sites that attract "your" sort of people. Again, TORN has the best of advertisement, being attached to a most excellent and very well known website. It brings most excellent people to us.
It's rare to find all 5 of those things in one place, but we have all of them in abundance. There's no place like TORN!
Silverlode
Between the acting of a dreadful thing
And the first motion, all the interim is
Like a phantasma, or a hideous dream:
The genius and the plan thus inspired
Depart me and I, entering a room,
Find myself on the threshold, stand still
And wonder what I came to do there.
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Altaira
Superuser
Feb 22 2007, 3:53am
Post #10 of 36
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I swear, my dear... if there's ever anything I want to say, you always say it more concisely and WAY more eloquently than I ever could. 
In other words.... "what she said! "
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"All we have to decide is what to do with the boards that are given to us"
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
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Annael
Elvenhome
Feb 22 2007, 3:57am
Post #11 of 36
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The average life of a board is about a year and a half. By then it has usually fallen to troll storms. Or gotten so inbred that conversations are mostly shorthand gibberish. Or become so insular that newbies are chased off with pitchforks and torches. Or become merely a message center for a small group of friends. Then it simply dries up and blows away.
This has been my experience on several boards, despite the posters being mostly intelligent, thoughtful folks. I still mourn the loss of one board where three people got into a flame war that never ended and drove everyone else away within a couple of months. It takes a lot of care to create and maintain a board that can survive. That TORn's boards have existed for almost 8 years now with no loss of vitality is awesome. Yay for the admins!
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 22 2007, 4:02am
Post #12 of 36
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Both for your excellent points and for the great intro!
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Noneoftheabove
Lorien
Feb 22 2007, 4:02am
Post #13 of 36
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If you'll forgive this question which is slightly off topic...
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From what I remember, wasn't TORn originally an affiliate with the IGN website somehow?
I can't remember how many years I've been here, plus lurking and finally registering. But I do remember IGN being involved with this site.
I'm bringing this up because of how long this website has been around, and how successful it is. If it is privately owned now, then that would make sense because of how well run it is.
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Annael
Elvenhome
Feb 22 2007, 4:14am
Post #14 of 36
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someone else probably knows better but
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wasn't TORn originally an affiliate with the IGN website somehow?
Not to my knowledge, and I joined about three months after the site went live. I believe it was independently created by Xoanon, Tehanu, Corvar, and Calisuri.
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Penthe
Gondor
Feb 22 2007, 4:29am
Post #15 of 36
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I was very interested to hear what you had to say, since I'm not very familiar with many boards. One other one I frequent I rarely bother posting on because the moderators are so harsh on off-topic posting that I get my knickers in a twist worrying about whether or not my topic is focussed enough. You are not even allowed to mention other books to make a comparison, which rather sucks the fun out of a literary discussion in my opinion.
At TORn there has been (in my opinion) a wonderful balance between keeping on topic, and an understanding that ideas sometimes carry a group of people into unexpected places, and that exploring those places can be fun and interesting for the community. I'd say that's as true of the Reading Room as of Main, and though I don't much visit the Movie board my limited experience there suggests the same.
But I do appreciate the immense amount of work the admins put in to keeping the place tidy and well-provisioned. Our own little band of Elronds, ensuring that adventures can happen with somewhere safe to come back to.
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Aerin
Grey Havens
Feb 22 2007, 4:54am
Post #16 of 36
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I may have sometimes had my differences with moderators, but they have done an excellent job on the whole. No forum worth participating in can survive without a strong moderator function, and I think it's the main reason TORn has thrived.
No. 2: This might be a minority opinion, but I think a *lot* of TORn's sucess has been due to threaded posts. True *conversation* simply doesn't happen on boards that can only be viewed flat. A few people may try to have a back-and-forth discussion, but with all the quoting, cryptic subject lines, and intervening posts on other subjects, it's virtually impossible to sustain an exchange. It's also very difficult for others to join ongoing exchanges. I've wasted a lot of time on flat boards, scrolling and scrolling (or searching and searching), trying to follow a "subthread," but since the same people also make posts unrelated to the subthread, it's just too much work, even on boards with a lot less traffic than TORn.
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SandWitch King
Rohan
Feb 22 2007, 6:07am
Post #17 of 36
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The story of the founding of TORn needs to be posted somewhere on the site, but I know the story well and it didn't grow out of IGN.
There may have been a partnership on a game or an event or a sharing of news or something at some point but the two entities have always been distinct and seperate. IGN is a money maker while TORn remains not-for-profit and even those who started the thing have never benefited financially from the beast.
It seems obvious now, because of your question, but TORn needs to have its own story on its own web site.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Once upon a time I was MrCere. I still am but this name is for posting and being part of the community while that one is for official business. 8-)
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SandWitch King
Rohan
Feb 22 2007, 6:17am
Post #18 of 36
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I hope I get to be tortured again by Patty and Mr. Patty. I smile at the thought.
Once upon a time I was MrCere. I still am but this name is for posting and being part of the community while that one is for official business. 8-)
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Draupne
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 22 2007, 9:01am
Post #19 of 36
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Feb 22 2007, 1:02pm
Post #20 of 36
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Feb 22 2007, 1:13pm
Post #21 of 36
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*Mods up again* I don't know that I have that much to add.
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There are a lot of ingredients that went into this soup, as you mentioned: good topic, good people, good moderators, ongoing traditions. I also think the board format has something to do with it, and I'm so glad the designers of the new board put a lot of thought into that. The fact that old threads slip into the distance keeps the conversation fresh.
I've only been active on a few boards before. The first was a Matt Shepard memorial board that felt a lot like this one. It had the same format, and some great people, but unfortunately was unmoderated, and you didn't even have to register to post, so trolls would use regulars' names as sock-puppet names. Ack! I've also been on a few yahoo group boards, which worked pretty well. There's a Mystic Rosary prayer bead group that is warm and supportive and has ongoing traditions like TORn. The best-moderated board besides this one that I've been on is the hystersisters board. Their admins are very active, and go in with scissors to *snip* a post, editing out offensive lines but leaving the rest. They also have software that replaces certain words with family-friendly synonyms, which can lead to hilarious results like this one: "If my tootie is broken I'm going to be really honkerblonked."
But none of them are as magical as this place. The virtual feng shui is just right here.
It sounds silly, but one little touch that I love on this new board is the mae govannen greeting that appears on the main index. It always makes me smile, and feel welcome.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Owlyross
Rohan
Feb 22 2007, 1:59pm
Post #22 of 36
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It sounds silly, but one little touch that I love on this new board is the mae govannen greeting that appears on the main index. It always makes me smile, and feel welcome.
I'd not noticed that, but you're right, it's very cool indeed!
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
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Farawyn
Rohan
Feb 22 2007, 2:49pm
Post #23 of 36
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Sort of like that?
I agree. It's great to debate people, and even better still to find out not everyone exactly agrees with you or sees it your way. How else do you learn? For that to happen, however, there has to be a general openmindedness, a smidge of intelligence, and trust. A sense of humor helps. Boards that take themselves too seriously BLOW CHUNKS!
I also have to add, you need to have one really good friend that you know "has your back". Some of the boards I have been involved with over the years have been absolutely viscious and backstabbing, and if I didn't have one friend or another around it would have been a total waste of time. There is always going to be some gossip, or backround drama going on, that's the nature of the internet. Lucky me, I now have MANY good friends online. They have been there for me and I have been there for them, and I wouldn't trade that for the world. Yes, we sometimes argue or get pissed at each other, but if someone else "outside" picks on them, I'll get sersly pissy. And you don't want that. Because I'll bring it...
The coffee, I mean, so we can all sit down and discuss.
Snark: It's what's for dinner.
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Curious
Half-elven
Feb 22 2007, 5:13pm
Post #24 of 36
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*uses special powers to mod up to 100 -- oh, what the heck, 1000*
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NottaSackville
Valinor
Feb 22 2007, 5:30pm
Post #25 of 36
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Clearly the software and the servers make a good forum
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As an example -
I just left a forum last weekend that I doubt I'll ever post at again. It was run on old, outdated software. There were almost no options for customization, and really none of the "modern" forum conveniences like smilies, message tags, PM's, post formatting, etc. You couldn't even respond to a post that was more than a few days (or in some cases, hours) old!
The search function was broken, the spellchecker ruined your posts, and nearly every time you tried to access a post from the past, the server just gave up and didn't serve it.
You could tell the poor software and servers took their toll, too, as the community wasn't very active, or very close. There weren't more than three or four couples that met and got married through there, it wasn't more than once a week that nearly everyone checked in for a community celebration, probably at least once every two months there was a feedback post complaining about a post that might be offensive, and maybe half that often a mod would have to remove a troll post.
Seems like anytime someone posted something personal, like a birth, or a death, or a milestone, there probably wasn't more than twenty or thirty people who would chime in with heartfelt wishes.
It just seemed like the software got in the way of people feeling invested in keeping that forum community running with such things as weekly themed posts, quizzes, etc. I'd bet at least 12 hours would go by on the main board sometimes without someone posting one of those!
Really, that forum probably hadn't operated for more than about 7 or 8 years, and I think everybody has pretty much left it now for some new-fangled thing.
So yeah, I truthfully doubt I'll ever go back there and post again at THAT forum. Thank goodness for these digs we've got here - this new software is going to totally make us a successful forum and community!
Notta
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