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Stapper
Lorien
Feb 21 2007, 10:46am
Post #1 of 31
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Reading it is one thing, but reading it out loud... Good luck!
For those able to read phonetic transcriptions, I uploaded a .pdf file with both normal text and transcription... It does help ;)
The Chaos
G. Nolst Trenité
Dearest creature in creation,
Study English pronunciation.
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse, and worse.
I will keep you, Suzy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy.
Tear in eye, your dress will tear.
So shall I! Oh hear my prayer.
Just compare heart, beard, and heard,
Dies and diet, lord and word,
Sword and sward, retain and Britain.
(Mind the latter, how it's written.)
Now I surely will not plague you
With such words as plaque and ague.
But be careful how you speak:
Say break and steak, but bleak and streak;
Cloven, oven, how and low,
Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe.
Hear me say, devoid of trickery,
Daughter, laughter, and Terpsichore,
Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles,
Exiles, similes, and reviles;
Scholar, vicar, and cigar,
Solar, mica, war and far;
One, anemone, Balmoral,
Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel;
Gertrude, German, wind and mind,
Scene, Melpomene, mankind.
Billet does not rhyme with ballet,
Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet.
Blood and flood are not like food,
Nor is mould like should and would.
Viscous, viscount, load and broad,
Toward, to forward, to reward.
And your pronunciation's OK
When you correctly say croquet,
Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve,
Friend and fiend, alive and live.
Ivy, privy, famous; clamour
And enamour rhyme with hammer.
River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb,
Doll and roll and some and home.
Stranger does not rhyme with anger,
Neither does devour with clangour.
Souls but foul, haunt but aunt,
Font, front, wont, want, grand, and grant,
Shoes, goes, does. Now first say finger,
And then singer, ginger, linger,
Real, zeal, mauve, gauze, gouge and gauge,
Marriage, foliage, mirage, and age.
Query does not rhyme with very,
Nor does fury sound like bury.
Dost, lost, post and doth, cloth, loth.
Job, nob, bosom, transom, oath.
Though the differences seem little,
We say actual but victual.
Refer does not rhyme with deafer.
Foeffer does, and zephyr, heifer.
Mint, pint, senate and sedate;
Dull, bull, and George ate late.
Scenic, Arabic, Pacific,
Science, conscience, scientific.
Liberty, library, heave and heaven,
Rachel, ache, moustache, eleven.
We say hallowed, but allowed,
People, leopard, towed, but vowed.
Mark the differences, moreover,
Between mover, cover, clover;
Leeches, breeches, wise, precise,
Chalice, but police and lice;
Camel, constable, unstable,
Principle, disciple, label.
Petal, panel, and canal,
Wait, surprise, plait, promise, pal.
Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair,
Senator, spectator, mayor.
Tour, but our and succour, four.
Gas, alas, and Arkansas.
Sea, idea, Korea, area,
Psalm, Maria, but malaria.
Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean.
Doctrine, turpentine, marine.
Compare alien with Italian,
Dandelion and battalion.
Sally with ally, yea, ye,
Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key.
Say aver, but ever, fever,
Neither, leisure, skein, deceiver.
Heron, granary, canary.
Crevice and device and aerie.
Face, but preface, not efface.
Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass.
Large, but target, gin, give, verging,
Ought, out, joust and scour, scourging.
Ear, but earn and wear and tear
Do not rhyme with here but ere.
Seven is right, but so is even,
Hyphen, roughen, nephew Stephen,
Monkey, donkey, Turk and jerk,
Ask, grasp, wasp, and cork and work.
Pronunciation -- think of Psyche!
Is a paling stout and spikey?
Won't it make you lose your wits,
Writing groats and saying grits?
It's a dark abyss or tunnel:
Strewn with stones, stowed, solace, gunwale,
Islington and Isle of Wight,
Housewife, verdict and indict.
Finally, which rhymes with enough --
Though, through, plough, or dough, or cough?
Hiccough has the sound of cup.
My advice is to give up!!!
Source poem: http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/cyc/e/pronounc.htm
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Attachments:
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The Chaos - transcription.pdf
(25.9 KB)
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SandWitch King
Rohan
Feb 21 2007, 11:12am
Post #2 of 31
(1188 views)
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Read every word, out load! Fantastic work on somebody's part /NT
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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Once upon a time I was MrCere. I still am but this name is for posting and being part of the community while that one is for official business. 8-)
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a.s.
Valinor
Feb 21 2007, 11:38am
Post #3 of 31
(1221 views)
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and for example: pronounce/pronunciate
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Can't Post
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I mean, it's not an exact example of what the poem is demonstrating (in such a great way!), but just an example of English language frustration:
why do we pronounce a word using correct or incorrect pronunciation? Why don't we pronounce it with pronounciation?
a.s.
"an seileachan"
The Lost Mod Power: An Elegy (with apologies to Wordsworth)
What though the mod power which was once so bright
Be now FOREVER taken from my sight,
Though nothing can bring back the hour
Of splendor in the stats, of glory in the power,
We will grieve not, rather find
Strength in what remains behind.
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Stapper
Lorien
Feb 21 2007, 12:53pm
Post #4 of 31
(1170 views)
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Note on transcription attachment
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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The phonetic transcription's based on an RP accent (Received Pronunciation -> English). I don't have a version for any accent but the Queen's English, I'm afraid. What I do have is a version with some extra notes on choices made for transcription etc...
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Elberbeth
Tol Eressea
Feb 21 2007, 3:49pm
Post #5 of 31
(1144 views)
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"There are some things that it is better to begin than to refuse, even though the end may be dark."
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Annael
Elvenhome
Feb 21 2007, 4:10pm
Post #6 of 31
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oh, I gotta send that to my mom
[In reply to]
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She grew up speaking both English and French and has always claimed that English pronunciation makes no sense.
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Stapper
Lorien
Feb 21 2007, 4:18pm
Post #7 of 31
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If it's already difficult for a native (or bilingual) speaker of English, imagine what it's like for us who're learning the language later on in life :P
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greendragon
Sr. Staff
Feb 21 2007, 4:38pm
Post #8 of 31
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I read a similar poem (though much shorter) when I was studying linguistics and English language at Uni. I don't remember it all but it began:
'Beware of bird, a dreadful word;
It looks like beard but sounds like heard!
And deed; it's said like bead, not bed!
For goodness' sake don't call it dead!'
I love word play like that! They say English is one of the easiest languages to speak badly but the hardest to speak well, and I think that's true. On the one hand, we don't use many different cases and we don't define by gender, so getting the basics may seem fairly simple. On the other hand, there is so much nuance and double meaning in the English language - and I don't think any nation loves to play with puns and double entendres quite so much as the British do - that it's VERY easy to become confused if you're not a native speaker!
Thanks for posting this Stapper - great stuff!
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Ciars
Rohan
Feb 21 2007, 7:48pm
Post #9 of 31
(1131 views)
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May the road rise up to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.
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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea
Feb 21 2007, 8:03pm
Post #10 of 31
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I can't pronounce all of those words...
[In reply to]
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And I was born speaking English. But wow, for a couple of them I had to think. I'm used to writing many of them out, but saying them aloud is a whole other thing...
Dang. I still wonder how my mom did it. English is definitely a pain in the butt to learn.
My LJ
My art site
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elvenhobbit
Rohan
Feb 21 2007, 8:09pm
Post #11 of 31
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I just read it aloud....what a 'Chaos'!!!!!!!
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my head and tongue now are like  
-e_H-
Elven by name, Hobbit by nature
'Road lead ever on and on
down from the door where it began
now far ahead the road has gone
down from where all began' -FOTR-
and through all the world has changed
the ages come and go with time
and yet those remain unchanged
unto they journey westward
over the sea...
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elvenhobbit
Rohan
Feb 21 2007, 8:18pm
Post #12 of 31
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T'is bower, bare and bear
not beer
but bier and borrow
and borrow in sorrow,
morrow and barrow
not like hallow
and shallow
try here and heir
and blue and blew
for size give them
due but not
dew
adieu
-e_H-
anyone else think the english language is hard work??!! 
Elven by name, Hobbit by nature
'Road lead ever on and on
down from the door where it began
now far ahead the road has gone
down from where all began' -FOTR-
and through all the world has changed
the ages come and go with time
and yet those remain unchanged
unto they journey westward
over the sea...
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Stapper
Lorien
Feb 21 2007, 11:04pm
Post #13 of 31
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A quick Google search didn't result in finding the poem, alas.
It's a nice struggle to get it out right. OK, sometimes it's a pain in the neck to get strange words come out properly, but when I succeed it's so much more fun
When studying English Language & Culture at uni we get pronunciation classes throughout the first year - with a choice for either a standard British (English) or American accent. Plus lots and lots of fluency classes in the first AND second year. I'm in my third year but still far from fluent though
The problem with English indeed seems to be the double layer in meaning. But the more you listen and/or read in English, the more you get to understand it. I try and watch tv series and films with either English subtitles or no subtitles at all, just to train myself in picking up the punchlines. Am getting much better at it :D
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Stapper
Lorien
Feb 21 2007, 11:08pm
Post #14 of 31
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TV, radio, music. And the internet, nowadays (TORn helped me a lot in this respect). I'm not sure what means your mother had to her aid, but with enough time it isn't *too* bad. Having no choice but to speak the language also is a major factor, I found out when staying in Norwich (England) for a month.
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Stapper
Lorien
Feb 21 2007, 11:09pm
Post #15 of 31
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Had to think a bit though - but that's good :D
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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea
Feb 21 2007, 11:12pm
Post #16 of 31
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Mostly in school, and then she learned quite a bit when she came to stay in America for a year when she was a teenager. No internet back then, but I bet just living in the country helped a bit.
Though, a couple decades later, she still messes up the pronouns since Finnish doesn't have "he" and "she". It's amusing to the family.
But I really have to give props to you, and others who have to learn English. It is a difficult language to learn.
My LJ
My art site
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Stapper
Lorien
Feb 21 2007, 11:48pm
Post #17 of 31
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Spanish people have difficulty with 'he' and 'she' as well, because the sounds seem so similar to them. Or so they told me.
As for Dutch, we do have a 'hij' ("he") and 'zij' ("she"), so that makes it easier for me. Indeed, the only language closer to English than Dutch is Frisian, which of course is spoken in.. the Netherlands. If one were to speak Old English to someone from Frisia, they'd understand one another just fine. Funny, isn't it? With Modern English and Dutch it's a bit more difficlt, since both have been influenced by different languages in different ways.
On the other hand, we have the luck of seeing foreign films in the original language with subtitles - dubbing is onlu for children's shows and films, although the latter are also available in their original language (and subtitled of course). This way, we hear a lot of English on TV as well as the radio. It's a bit of passive learning, but at the same time very influencial.
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Hobbitmomma
Bree
Feb 22 2007, 2:44am
Post #18 of 31
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I just sent it to my brother-in-law who is a 6th grade English teacher.
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Curious
Half-elven
Feb 22 2007, 5:32pm
Post #19 of 31
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elvenhobbit
Rohan
Feb 22 2007, 5:36pm
Post #20 of 31
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Just glad to challenge you a bit.....
[In reply to]
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if you're learning english then I am quite resourceful in helping with pronunciation and resources.....
keep it up, stapper
now and always,
-e_H-
Elven by name, Hobbit by nature
'Road lead ever on and on
down from the door where it began
now far ahead the road has gone
down from where all began' -FOTR-
and through all the world has changed
the ages come and go with time
and yet those remain unchanged
unto they journey westward
over the sea...
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Stapper
Lorien
Feb 22 2007, 5:42pm
Post #21 of 31
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Compared to the students of my year, my pronunciation's not too great -- though already better than a non-(former )student of English . I can always use the extra practice, so I'm gladly accepting any help I can get... (what do you mean, "It was just a polite offer and not to be taken serious"?  )
Thanks!
*hugs*
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greendragon
Sr. Staff
Feb 22 2007, 7:32pm
Post #22 of 31
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If I can find the whole thing sometime...
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I'll send it to you! I'm pretty sure I still have the language book it was in - but it will be somewhere at my parents' house in England, so I won't have a chance to look for it before the summer! I'll try to remember!
I think your English is excellent - and reading these boards must be pretty good practice for you! I'm curious - did you choose to learn British diction or American diction? Working with singers here in America, I find myself dealing with the difference betweed accents all the time - and deciding what kind of diction is most appropriate for different songs and arias. Of course, I firmly believe that the Queen's English is the ONLY true English...
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Stapper
Lorien
Feb 22 2007, 7:59pm
Post #23 of 31
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That'd be great!
Sounds like a lot of fun, distinguishing between all those accents and finding out when to use which one. On the other hand, don't you ever get frustrated by it being so different? sometimes want to close my ears when I hear a US accent, while I know it's not their "fault" but a personal preference from my side which I only really developed when I started my studies and was surrounded by RP speakers (but often attempts to get close to that). I want to be able to speal the Queen's English better than I do now ( ), but once I've "mastered" it I want to move on to a little less sophisticated accent. I mean... how many people are actually speaking RP, and who are they?
It's British English for me. I've heard enough US accents on TV throughout my life to not feel a need to speak it myself, while there never were enough British shows around. Having learnt lo listen to various accents in English from across the world and trying to understand them, I now have little problem watching any show/series/film spoken in English.
Of course, it helps when you're studying a language. Strangely enough, I have more difficulty with off-standard accents in British English (although I truly love them) than with the various US accents I come across. I adore Irish and Scottish, but even if the accents is not laid on thickly (Dutchism?) it's difficult to make out what people are saying. So frustrating!
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Stapper
Lorien
Feb 22 2007, 8:19pm
Post #24 of 31
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It was the place where I learned to not just translate words and sentences or to fill in the right verb form, but to actually create sentences of my own, trying to convey my thoughts in a language I couldn't really express myself in too well. Of course, I knew how to say a few things, but didn't know the subtleties and had a huge lack in vocabulary. In the beginning, my dictionary was my best fried around the boards.
I'm still friends with my dictionary, but don't need it like I once did. With my English improving, I started to pay closer attention to how native speakers shaped their mesasages in terms of wording and grammar.
I think TORn was one of the main reasons for me wanting to study English after I graduated from secondary school: a wanting to improve my grammar. Along with feeling my accent was so horrible I wanted to make it sould more like real English, but that wasn't TORn's doing.
------------------------------------------------------
Belinda's law: The chance a computer crashes is proportional to the importance of the document you're working on
FOTR:50 links / Samwise's cookbook / TORn birthday calendar / 'Things you never (want to) hear people say' list
(This post was edited by Stapper on Feb 22 2007, 8:20pm)
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 22 2007, 8:47pm
Post #25 of 31
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made great strides in fluency since you've been on TORN. It must have been intimidating, trying to converse about Tolkien in a second language! I remember when you first joined us, it wasn't too difficult to tell that you were a non-native speaker, though you were always understandable. Now, I think few people would know if you didn't tell them.
Silverlode
Between the acting of a dreadful thing
And the first motion, all the interim is
Like a phantasma, or a hideous dream:
The genius and the plan thus inspired
Depart me and I, entering a room,
Find myself on the threshold, stand still
And wonder what I came to do there.
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