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TheNazgul
Ossiriand
Aug 16 2010, 12:48am
Post #1 of 29
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I dont understand this!!!!!!
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all the hobbits originally had swords from the barrow frodo stabs the witch king with his and nothing happens merry stabs him and from my understanding makes him vunerble eowyn stabs him in the face and gone so why dint a similar thing happen when frodo stabbed him?
Et Earello Endorenna utulien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn` Ambar-metta!
(For those who dont read Elvish)
Out of the great sea to Middle-Earth I am come. In this place I will abide,and my heirs, unto the ending of the world
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Aug 16 2010, 1:01am
Post #2 of 29
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Frodo only cut the Witch Kings garment.//
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Kangi Ska
Make the Hobbit Happen Now!
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Aug 16 2010, 1:12am
Post #3 of 29
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“Look!” he cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that
had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a
slash. “This was the stroke of Frodo’s sword,” he said, “The only hurt that it did
to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that
dreadful King. More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth.”
Kangi Ska
Make the Hobbit Happen Now!
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Aug 16 2010, 7:53pm
Post #4 of 29
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I was confused by this on my first readings. A lot of things happen quickly in this part of the book, and I was left with the impression that Frodo had at least scratched the Nazgul since he had torn his garment. You'd think if you stabbed someone and tore their clothes, you wouldn't just stab at air. But that is all that happened.
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Morthoron
Hithlum
Aug 17 2010, 12:06pm
Post #5 of 29
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A cloak is like a heavy cape...
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Therefore, it hangs loosely from the body and is usually clasped about the neck. The WiKi was leaning over Frodo and the cloak was hanging close to the hobbit. When Frodo stabbed upward, he only snagged a piece of the cloak, not the WiKi's diembodied body.
Please visit my new blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Aug 17 2010, 5:35pm
Post #6 of 29
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WiKi-wraithed not disembodied...
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The Witch King of Angmar was a wraith (had been "wraithed" according to Tom Shippey) and not a spirit without body. The bodies of the Nazul had been translated into a different plane of existence which placed them beyond ordinary attack. To harm ole Wiki-Gul required warriors that met special criteria wielding special weapons. Frodo met these criteria but he missed and ruined the WiKi's favorite cloak.
Kangi Ska
Make the Hobbit Happen Now!
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Morthoron
Hithlum
Aug 17 2010, 6:26pm
Post #7 of 29
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I could say you were splitting hairs...
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...regarding the word 'disembodied', but in the case of the Nazgul, there would be no hair to split. Or rather, invisible hair lacks the wherewithal for one to split with any degree of certainty. But Nazgul could very well have had split ends, as their hair had no body at all.
Perhaps the Elves could supply some conditioner, as their hair always seemed quite lustrous. 
Please visit my new blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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squire
Gondolin
Aug 17 2010, 7:30pm
Post #8 of 29
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ole Wiki-Gul's 'favorite cloak'?
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I believe you are making up the idea that the cloak was the Witch-king's favorite. It was not, as far as I know.
It is a strange thing that the camp was not watched while darkness lasted of the night Oct. 6-7, and the crossing of the Road into the southward lands seems not to have been observed, so that [the Witch-king] again lost track of the Ring. For this there were probably several reasons, the least to be expected being the most important, namely that [the Witch-king], the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him, piercing only the cursed cloak which he had long loathed. How had he come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgul. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron’s will was the stronger. (J.R.R. Tolkien, Marquette MSS 4/2/36, The Hunt for the Ring, in Hammond & Scull, The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion, 2005, 180)
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Tim
Dor-Lomin
Aug 17 2010, 8:35pm
Post #9 of 29
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I believe he was being humorous about the cloak.
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King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.
Tim: Follow. But. Follow only if ye be TORNsibs of valour, for the making of The Hobbit is guarded by a creature so foul, so cruel that no TORNsib yet has fought with it and lived. Bones of an A List veteran director lie strewn about its lair. So, brave TORNsibs, if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for Hollywood studio bureaucratic ineptitude awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy teeth!
Studio Exec: And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped.
Studio CEO: This new learning amazes me, Studio Lapdog. Explain again how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Aug 17 2010, 10:51pm
Post #10 of 29
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It burns us...it does!
Kangi Ska
Make the Hobbit Happen Now!
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Aug 17 2010, 11:01pm
Post #11 of 29
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Dang! I was sure it was his "Friday Go To Black Sabbath' best.
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Thanks for the reference and the enlightenment. KS
Kangi Ska
Make the Hobbit Happen Now!
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sador
Gondolin
Aug 18 2010, 4:14am
Post #12 of 29
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A fair warning: I am a nitpicker by taste, talents and profession.
"Does it matter whether the things Tom has to do are "useful" things? ... Perhaps nothing would seem much different if he wasn't there with 'my singing, my talking and my walking, and my watching of the country.' But something would be missing - something intangible, hardly noticeable maybe. A little of the spirit would have gone out of the land. "
- FarFromHome.
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Tim
Dor-Lomin
Aug 18 2010, 4:16am
Post #13 of 29
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King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.
Tim: Follow. But. Follow only if ye be TORNsibs of valour, for the making of The Hobbit is guarded by a creature so foul, so cruel that no TORNsib yet has fought with it and lived. Bones of an A List veteran director lie strewn about its lair. So, brave TORNsibs, if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for Hollywood studio bureaucratic ineptitude awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy teeth!
Studio Exec: And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped.
Studio CEO: This new learning amazes me, Studio Lapdog. Explain again how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Aug 18 2010, 12:34pm
Post #14 of 29
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I've just never understood why the Nazgul withdrew after the attack. Even if dismayed by Aragorn's torches, they could have withdrawn to a safe but visible distance to keep an eye on the party and stalk them. It would still have been nine against five (one of the five wounded), and they could keep them under surveillance instead of losing track of them altogether. And they did defeat Gandalf (or fight him to a standstill) and then drive him off, so they should have felt confident.
But outlining the WiKing's thoughts via JRR as you did answers all my questions. We never get his outlook in the story, of course, just the perspective of the hobbits, who are always terrified of the Black Riders. But the Nazgul had reasons to be dismayed, and their doubts explains their subsequent actions. 20 years of mysteries put to rest for me!
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Aug 18 2010, 11:17pm
Post #15 of 29
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I have my own little theory on this.
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Which is that the Witch-king wasn't actually properly killed by Merry and Eowyn. He was just temporaly disembodied the same way that the Nazgul were by the floods outside Rivendell earlier. He might have been put out of action for a little while, a year maybe, but he would have been back. Had not the Ring been destroyed. That was what really destroyed him.
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PhantomS
Nargothrond
Aug 19 2010, 6:10am
Post #16 of 29
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Which is that the Witch-king wasn't actually properly killed by Merry and Eowyn. He was just temporaly disembodied the same way that the Nazgul were by the floods outside Rivendell earlier. He might have been put out of action for a little while, a year maybe, but he would have been back. Had not the Ring been destroyed. That was what really destroyed him.
It was already prophesized by Glorfindel that he would fall by a hand not of man , and when Merry stabbed him clean through the knees something clearly happenned that unbound him and allowed Eowyn to kill him by stabbing him in the face. No one really knew about that kind of weapon, and even Denethor only guessed its origin and not its methods of making; hence the WK was probably killed for good thinking that none of those blades ever existed anymore. If Sauron is peeved by Anduril, the WK should be scared of the Barrow Blades.
One reason why the Nazgul never seemed to come back between Rivendell and Moria, then Moria to Lorien is probably because their horses had died and their 'wrappings' were broken, so they couldn't do their 'sniffing around' properly without them. The WK is clad in armor and clearly doesn't want to lose his casing (so to speak) during the Pelennor Fields, plus he's riding a terrible ,near invincible beast. The Nazgul also couldn't continue their chase towards Rivendell due to Elrond's power and Galadriel's when in Lothlorien- then Saruman interfered at the Two Hills, and they lost the scent. Even if they had reformed earlier, they'd be dead blind as to the trail, now that others had covered it up; Gandalf and Elrond did only stun them out of solid existence but crucially blinded them to Frodo's next move.
At Amon Hen the Nazgul probably backed off, since Sauron was facing Frodo directly after he put the Ring on.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Aug 19 2010, 9:06am
Post #17 of 29
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Well there's no absolute death
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in Middle-earth (except, it seems, for the orcs...). The spirit lives on, so all death is "disembodiment" to that extent. In fact, the Ring-wraiths are already dead (as we humans define it) - already wraiths, or spirits, with no real bodily presence. Their creepy power lies in the fact that their spirits have not left the world, but continue to haunt it. Once they lose their horses and garments, they lose their "shape", but they are still in the world, as we hear from Gandalf:
"I think that we may hope now that the Ringwraiths were scattered, and have been obliged to return as best they could to their Master in Mordor, empty and shapeless." (The Council of Elrond)
But when Merry and Eowyn finally defeat the Witch-king, even his spirit seems to be banished from the world:
"a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world." (The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
That sounds like much more than the mere loss of garments that happened at the Ford of Bruinen. And it fits in with Tolkien's comments on the Witch-king's fear of the barrow-swords:
"...[the Witch-king], the great captain, was actually dismayed... above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction." (quoted by squire)
You may certainly be right that if the Ring had not been destroyed, and Sauron had regained his power, the Witch-king's spirit might have been recalled from the void. To that extent, nothing really dies - evil can always return. But it can be at least temporarily banished from the world, and I think that's what happens on the Pelennor (but not at the Ford of Bruinen).
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Aug 19 2010, 9:11am)
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Curious
Gondolin
Aug 21 2010, 1:17pm
Post #18 of 29
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that the Nazgul retreated from Weathertop in part because they discovered the hobbits were equipped with Barrow blades that could harm them. Strider did not realize this, nor, of course, did the hobbits, but in hindsight it is one possible explanation. Between Weathertop and the Ford, the Witchking prepared a spell that shattered Frodo's blade.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin
Aug 21 2010, 3:30pm
Post #19 of 29
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I had forgotten about the blade shattering,
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but I remember now that it has disturbed me during some readings. I think your explanations of Weathertop and of Frodo's sword make perfect sense.
And the blade shattering not only mirrors Narsil, but gives Bilbo an additional reason to present Frodo with Sting. I think he already had reasons--but Frodo being without a sword at all would have made Bilbo's gift even more imperative.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Aug 25 2010, 10:13pm
Post #21 of 29
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I'd bought the whole thing.
Hook, line and sinker.
(I sure hope the rest is real - I'd never have come up with that idea about the sword existing in two worlds if its power hadn't been made so much of in that extract...)
P.S. Do you know why he wrote it, and when? Does it seem that he intended to publish it in any form?
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Aug 25 2010, 10:15pm)
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Aug 26 2010, 12:22am
Post #23 of 29
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Kangi Ska
Make the Hobbit Happen Now!
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Aug 26 2010, 8:35am
Post #24 of 29
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(Actually, I knew most of it must be real because it was vaguely familiar, in fact I guess I'd remembered it from this earlier subthread to which we both contributed. I didn't remember the bit about the cloak, but I put that down to your magisterial ability to find just the right quote for any given context!)
I guess I should invest in a copy of Hammond and Scull - sounds like there's some interesting stuff in there...
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Aug 27 2010, 1:41am
Post #25 of 29
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Nice accompanying graphic, squire.
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What - everyone doesn't have the Reader's Companion? 
Actually, your "embellishment" made sense, but the wording left me a tad confused:
Narrowly it had missed him, piercing only the cursed cloak which he had long loathed. How had he come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. On first reading, I took it to mean the the Witch-king had come by the cloak in the Barrows, which would explain his loathing of it. Even a Nazgűl must have some vestigial sense of fashion...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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