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Boromir's_bane
Lindon
Dec 14 2009, 6:24am
Post #1 of 6
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Of Turin Turambar (part 2): part 1
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I just want to start out by thanking Nix of Mirkwood for a fantastic job with the opening half of this saga. I chose to lead this part of the Sil because honestly the characters here divert so much from the norm of Tolkien. Not often do we see a complete anti-hero like we do in Turin. He is part tragic, part amazingly heroic and part deserving of our spite.
To pick the story up where Nix so expertly left off, we have a warning from one of the Valar that Morgoth has unleashed a massive force led by Glaurung. Yet, when Ulmo's message of warning is heard, Turin spurns the thought of tearing down his bridge and going back into hiding.
If Ulmo is sending a direct warning to Orodreth about the oncoming force, does that show the importance of Nargothrond? Obviously the Eldar have great respect for the Valar, is it odd to see a member of Finwe's lineage cast off a warning by Ulmo in favor of Turin's advice?
I love this as it pertains to Turin's character:
"Orodreth was troubled by the dark words of the messengers, but Turin would by no means hearken to these counsels, and least of all would he suffer the great bridge to be cast down; for he was become proud and stern, and would order all things as he wished."
In what other characters of Tolkien's do we see this kind of arrogance? Does this do anything to endear people to his cause or do we see his pride as a form of darkness, making him something of a villain in all of this?
So, the forces of Nargothrond come out to meet Glaurung and his minions head on and right out of the gate, Orodreth is slain at the forefront of the battle and Gwindor is mortally wounded.
For a member of Finwe's house and a leader of one of the two main fortresses held by the Noldor is Orodreth somewhat underwritten by Tolkien? It seems his death leaves something to be desired. Yet throughout the Sil his character is often overlooked, is this by design or is it a matter of too many characters not enough story?
And, does Turin redeem himself somewhat by pulling Gwindor to safety? Why does he do this during the heat of battle?
Then Gwindor's last words to Turin:
"Let bearing pay for bearing! But ill-fated was mine, and vain is thine; for my body is marred beyond healing, and I must leave Middle-earth. And though I love thee, son of Hurin, yet I rue the day that I took thee from the Orcs. But for thy prowess and thy pride, still I should have love and life, and Nargothrond should yet stand a while. Now if thou love me, leave me! Haste thee to Nargothrond, and save Finduilas. And this last I say to thee: she alone stands between thee and thy doom. If thou fail her, it shall not fail to find thee. Farewell!"
In that last portion (without getting to far ahead of myself) we do see some foreshadowing of coming events.
From what we know of Turin, is his return to Nargothrond out of fear of his doom? Is it out of love of Finduilas? Is it as a token of friendship to Gwindor? Or is there another reason all together?
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 14 2009, 6:46pm
Post #2 of 6
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To pick the story up where Nix so expertly left off, we have a warning from one of the Valar that Morgoth has unleashed a massive force led by Glaurung. Yet, when Ulmo's message of warning is heard, Turin spurns the thought of tearing down his bridge and going back into hiding.
If Ulmo is sending a direct warning to Orodreth about the oncoming force, does that show the importance of Nargothrond?
Well, Nargothrond was established because of a dream Ulmo sent to Finrod (like Gondolin). So it stands to reason that Ulmo cares for it.
Also, Ulmo might have been interested in Turin himself, trying to defeat the doom of Morgoth.
Obviously the Eldar have great respect for the Valar, is it odd to see a member of Finwe's lineage cast off a warning by Ulmo in favor of Turin's advice?
Of Finwe's lineage? Of course.
Remember, these guys left Valinor against the counsel of Manwe himself.
In what other characters of Tolkien's do we see this kind of arrogance?
Feanor of course; and to a lesser extent, in all the Noldor.
But this does echo Denethor's unwillingness to forsake the Rammas Echor, and to yield the Pelennor unfought.
Does this do anything to endear people to his cause or do we see his pride as a form of darkness, making him something of a villain in all of this?
No. The Silmarillion has nothing which might endear Turin.
The Children of Hurin has more - but my impression is that most of the denizens of the Reading Room still find Turin insufferable.
For a member of Finwe's house and a leader of one of the two main fortresses held by the Noldor is Orodreth somewhat underwritten by Tolkien? It seems his death leaves something to be desired. Yet throughout the Sil his character is often overlooked, is this by design or is it a matter of too many characters not enough story?
Yes, Orodreth is pretty much in the shadow; how many people notice that he managed to expel Celegorm and Curufin? Even after the story of how Beren and Luthien defeated Sauron, that still must have been hardly a simple thing to achieve.
And, does Turin redeem himself somewhat by pulling Gwindor to safety?
As Gwindor says, this is a vain gesture, as he is beyond healing by this time.
It might have helped, had Turin listened to his advice - but as it happened, he couldn't even do that.
Why does he do this during the heat of battle?
Why did he sit crazed by Beleg's body after killing him?
Turin is extremely emotional; and he feels towards Gwindor an odd mixture of love, thankfulness, shame and guilt. But maybe otherwise he could have held the far side of the bridge of Narog long enough for the Elves to throw it down - who can tell?
From what we know of Turin, is his return to Nargothrond out of fear of his doom?
Yes.
Is it out of love of Finduilas?
Less than the other reason, but in a way.
Is it as a token of friendship to Gwindor?
Not friendship, but perhaps guilt; and also finally recognizing Gwindor's wisdom, and resolving to listen to it.
Or is there another reason all together?
Well, the image of Finduilas being driven by Orcs would have reminded him of his own journey as a prisoner, and probably also make him think of his own womenfolk as slaves (the thought of which made him finally betray Finduilas). Shades of Saeros!
BTW - is "all together" a standard way of spelling? I don't remember seeing it before.
Thanks for your questions, Boromir's Bane! If you carry on with the quality of this post - we are going to have an excellent week!
"Do not be troubled. The tale shall wait."
- Turambar
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Dec 14 2009, 7:11pm
Post #3 of 6
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I for one have a soft spot for Turin
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The Silmarillion has nothing which might endear Turin.
The Children of Hurin has more - but my impression is that most of the denizens of the Reading Room still find Turin insufferable.
I have always (or at least ever since I read the Narn in UT, which immediately followed my first reading of The Silmarillion) have found Turin to be a truly tragic figure, a victim of circumstances in which even his own nature was used against him in furtherance of Morgoth's curse on his family. These words, from the Narn, well-define his true nature:
Túrin was slow to forget injustice or mockery; but the fire of his father was also in him, and he could be sudden and fierce. Yet he was quick to pity, and the hurts or sadness of living things might move him to tears; and he was like his father in this also, for Morwen was stern with others as with herself.
We know how much Tolkien valued the quality of pity (or at least, the right kind of pity, as we discussed in the Athrabeth discussions). This quality of Turin's is highly admirable, at least to me, and yet it helps to lead to his downfall.
I have had many a discussion about Turin at different times and different places. In one, I speculated about the autobiographical qualities of his tale. Admittedly, some of this is a stretch, but I think it is still worth considering:
Túrin: Tolkien's Autobiographical Flawed Hero?
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
www.arda-reconstructed.com
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Dec 15 2009, 9:50pm
Post #4 of 6
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All writing is autobiographical, Voronwe. We ourselves are the handiest clay from which to mold our stories, and all else that we perceive takes on our coloration. Which is not to say that everything in a story has point by point correspondence to a writer's life, but in every story you can trace the motifs back to something that enables the writer to understand. The correlations might seem "a stretch" to an outsider, but not to the writer who experiences it. Indeed, some of the correlations in my own life to my stories seem far more farfetched than the examples that you gave, but that makes me feel them no less keenly.
One inquiry that I wish someone would make (perhaps that I wish someone could make, this late in the game) would be in what Tolkien might have dreamed that could have shaped his stories. We do know a few dreams of his that worked their way into his stories; I wonder if there might have been more. Dreams provide a potent way to experience, up close and personal, things that you might never undergo in your waking life--and they especially dispose themselves towards storytelling, tapping as they do on powerful collective archetypes, the very font of myth. And since he himself wrote of dreams as a mode of travel to other worlds and other times, they must have captured his imagination--yet who knows to what extent?
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Dec 15 2009, 10:07pm
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I also feel compassion for Turin. I do want to shake him till his teeth rattle--but that's part of it. I never felt like shaking Boromir, whom I found far less sympathetic. I get angry at Turin precisely because Tolkien makes me care about him.
In part I see him as not that far from the common run. In an earlier thread I described him as a hero crippled by an unheroic, average soul, in over his head. He's not evil--he's typically human. And he finds himself in situations that call for extraordinary virtue, where he can't get away with being typical.
I can wonder how I might have done in his situation, and when I'm honest, I wonder if I would have even done as well. Turin, from childhood on, lives in a perpetual state of either present or post traumatic stress; just when he seems to have the vaguest chance of finally clearing his head, something else hits him and not only adds a new wound, but reopens all the old ones. He's like a staggering boxer, who can't find his feet before the next blow lands.
In this reading I have finally begun to notice how many of his wounds pertain to inappropriate guilt. In the past I have indeed decried his arrogance, but now I see the shadow-side and motivating principle of that fatal pride: deep down Turin believes himself a worm. He meant to embarrass Saeros, not kill him. He was delirious when he slew Beleg. A dragon hypnotized him into betraying Finduilas. He didn't recognize his sister when he married her. Et cetera. But it doesn't feel to him like he couldn't help it. Sure, he makes plenty enough downright sinful errors for which he could take responsibility, but even those come from an oversensitized pride trying to compensate for the rest.
In some ways he's a study on how a nice guy could go so wrong. He does, as I've always maintained, have a way out. But it's on his blind side.
I guess I sympathize most with Turin because he wants so badly to do what's right. And he fails so pitifully at it.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Dec 16 2009, 1:10am
Post #6 of 6
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If Ulmo is sending a direct warning to Orodreth about the oncoming force, does that show the importance of Nargothrond?
Surely, something about Nargothrond is important enough to warrant a warning. Now, whether due to the physical location (being "a retreat" or a place of "hidden strength") or an event that needs to happen (or not happen) or...just that big stash of treasure---I don't know.
Obviously the Eldar have great respect for the Valar, is it odd to see a member of Finwe's lineage cast off a warning by Ulmo in favor of Turin's advice?
Not so much. Two of Finwe's sons disregarded the words of a Vala not so very long ago-in Eldar time. Then again, Orodeth's brother did seem to heed the message-dream sent to him by Ulmo before. I wonder how much Finrod disclosed to Orodeth about the origin of this matter.
In what other characters of Tolkien's do we see this kind of arrogance? Does this do anything to endear people to his cause or do we see his pride as a form of darkness, making him something of a villain in all of this?
Well, that *rebel* thinking is attractive temporarily but, I think, difficult to sustain (unless your name happens to be Melkor!). Look what happened to Feanor. I don't see Turin's arrogance as being on either Melkor or Feanor's level though. He seems to be very reactive--not so much trying to stir stuff up, just reacting to what's going on in the moment.
For a member of Finwe's house and a leader of one of the two main fortresses held by the Noldor is Orodreth somewhat underwritten by Tolkien? It seems his death leaves something to be desired. Yet throughout the Sil his character is often overlooked, is this by design or is it a matter of too many characters not enough story?
I'm going with choice "B" --too many characters not enough story. Just two or three paragraphs before this I read "Angrod's people" and thought--now, which one was he?
And, does Turin redeem himself somewhat by pulling Gwindor to safety? Why does he do this during the heat of battle?
Wow! He really does live in the moment! Of course, that made me think of the Dwarves pulling up stakes to take their leader of the battlefield during the 5th battle. Maybe Mim really did see a kindred spririt in Turin.
From what we know of Turin, is his return to Nargothrond out of fear of his doom? Is it out of love of Finduilas? Is it as a token of friendship to Gwindor? Or is there another reason all together?
Well, not out of romantic love for Finduilas. Maybe because of Gwindor's love for her.
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