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Nix of Mirkwood
Nevrast
Dec 12 2009, 1:24pm
Post #1 of 11
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Chapter XXI - "Of Túrin Turambar" Conclusion of PART I
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Well, here’s my final post for Part I of Túrin Turambar.
We’v reached the part where Gwindor brings Túrin to Nargothrond and Túrin introduces himself to the King as Agarwaen son of Úmarth, meaning the Bloodstained son of Ill-fate.
Túrin undergoes many identity changes throughout the chapter. In the part I’m covering he goes from Túrin son of Húrin, to Neithan the Wronged, to Gorthol, the Dread Helm, then to Agarwaen son of Úmarth, the Bloodstained son of Ill-fate. He is also called Adanedhel by the Elves because he was fair-spoken and beautiful even among the Elves, and Mormegil, the Black Sword for the blade he carried with him. How does the fluidity of Túrin’s identity connect to the recurring idea of rebirth in this chapter? What can you say about the different roles Túrin takes on and the way he evolves as a character through all these changes?
Gwindor is welcomed back by the King’s daughter, Finduilas whom he had loved before he went away. But like many in Nargothrond, her heart was turned to Túrin whose charm wins over just about everyone except Gwindor. And yet, Túrin remained completely oblivious to Finduilas’ feelings and Gwindor’s pain and jealousy.
When it comes to war and all that accompanies it, Túrin is an expert, but he really is lacking in other fields, isn’t he? He seems to have a hard time picking up on subtleties. What can you say about this side of Túrin?
It is interesting that Finduilas’ love is the one that does not last, even though she still loved Gwindor despite the fact that he came back old and tired when he had gone away young and strong, while all we know of Gwindor’s love is that it was for Finduilas’ beauty. Could it be that she couldn’t continue loving him in the state he was in? Do you think beauty plays that big a role in this particular story? Wouldn’t that be a bit superficial? Elves to seem to value beauty quite a lot, but please tell me I’m stretching a bit here because that would ruin Elves for me.
Finduilas is heartbroken because Túrin is completely ignorant of her feelings, and Gwindor begins to hate Túrin from afar. He confronts Finduilas and tells here “go wither love leads you,” but of course he does not mean that, because he goes on to saying that she will only know sorrow and heartache if she chooses Túrin. His whole speech seems to have the sole purpose of discouraging her. He reveals to her Túrin’s true identity. Túrin learns this from Finduilas and grows wrathful, and since that moment, his friendship with Gwindor becomes shaky at best. When Finduilas revealed to him what happened between her and Gwindor, do you think Túrin had any inkling about her feelings for him, or did he just stay blissfully ignorant?
As always, Túrin lives in honor, and he is valued by the King and grows in prestige now that his true identity is revealed, which makes Gwindor hate him even more.
Is Gwindor another Saeros in your opinion?
Túrin’s fiery temper gets the better of him and he manages to convince the King to go into open battle instead of sneaking around and favoring stealth over swordsmanship. The King listens to Túrin of course, but Túrin makes himself an enemy in Gwindor.
He asks that his true identity remain a secret, so he is henceforth only known as the Black Sword of Nargothrond.
Did Túrin choose to hide his real name for his protection, or did he have any other motives in your opinion?
Well, that’s it for me! Before I leave you in the hands of Boromir’s Bane, I’d like to invite you all to ask the questions that you felt I didn’t cover, or just comment and/or add anything you feel like to this part of Túrin Turambar.
Thanks to all those who replied and to those who just stopped by and read through the threads. I hope this part of the chapter was as fun for you as it was for me!
Cheers!
Nix
~We must away ere break of day
To seek the pale enchanted gold~
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 13 2009, 11:05am
Post #2 of 11
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How does the fluidity of Túrin’s identity connect to the recurring idea of rebirth in this chapter? What can you say about the different roles Túrin takes on and the way he evolves as a character through all these changes?
He is trying all the time to escape his fate, supposing that changing his name would be a kind of rebirth. But Gwindor is absolutely correct - the fate is in himself, not in his name.
When it comes to war and all that accompanies it, Túrin is an expert, but he really is lacking in other fields, isn’t he?
Turin is not an expert in war, but in battle. He is a tactician, not a strategist.
He seems to have a hard time picking up on subtleties. What can you say about this side of Túrin?
At the end of the day, Turin is a Man, and his heart yearns for Men. Despite his time in Doriath, he is really no Adanedhel (unlike Tuor).
Could it be that she couldn’t continue loving him in the state he was in? Do you think beauty plays that big a role in this particular story? Wouldn’t that be a bit superficial? Elves to seem to value beauty quite a lot, but please tell me I’m stretching a bit here because that would ruin Elves for me.
No. It's not that Turin is beautiful and Gwindor is not - it is that the new Turin has the dash and heroism of the Gwindor of old, who is now reduced (or matured) to a cautious counsellor. Finduilas is a hopeless romantic. See questions 4-7 here.
but of course he does not mean that, because he goes on to saying that she will only know sorrow and heartache if she chooses Túrin.
I disagree. Gwindor is telling her the plain truth, because he loves her and cares for her.
It is worthwhile to point out that he is right in everything he says.
When Finduilas revealed to him what happened between her and Gwindor, do you think Túrin had any inkling about her feelings for him, or did he just stay blissfully ignorant?
Yes.
Is Gwindor another Saeros in your opinion?
No, another Beleg.
Or if you prefer - a precursor of Brandir; but he was before a greater hero than Beleg ever was.
Did Túrin choose to hide his real name for his protection, or did he have any other motives in your opinion?
As I said above - he had a superstition about his name, and his fate.
I hope this part of the chapter was as fun for you as it was for me! It was. Thank you!
"Of what sort are the women of that land?"
- Saeros
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Dec 13 2009, 11:21pm
Post #6 of 11
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About the tale as it is here. When you look around at Beleriand at this stage, seeing the triumph of Morgoth, poor Turin seeing overwhelming evil, most of which he cannot conquer, do you blame him on been a bit cynical of the Valar in the West? Also, seeing the amount of evil about here, created by Morgoth, doesn't it give a lie to Eru's brave words at the start of the Silm that, 'Thou Melkor will find that all of your works will simply add to my glory?'
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Dec 14 2009, 1:33am
Post #7 of 11
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love lost and love overlooked...
[In reply to]
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How does the fluidity of Túrin’s identity connect to the recurring idea of rebirth in this chapter? What can you say about the different roles Túrin takes on and the way he evolves as a character through all these changes?
Hmm...wherever you go, there you are?
Could it be that she couldn’t continue loving him in the state he was in? Do you think beauty plays that big a role in this particular story? Wouldn’t that be a bit superficial? Elves to seem to value beauty quite a lot, but please tell me I’m stretching a bit here because that would ruin Elves for me.
Yes and no. Gwindor himself seemed to imply that he is not the Gwindor of old when he answered Turin's question earlier with "A wandering Elf, a thrall escaped...". This does appear to be based on any measure of beauty, at least not in a physical sense. Perhaps he is prone to having those "dark thoughts" --perhaps Finduilas has picked up on this part of him?
When Finduilas revealed to him what happened between her and Gwindor, do you think Túrin had any inkling about her feelings for him, or did he just stay blissfully ignorant?
Ha! He just breezed right past that part of the conversation and focused on Gwindor's part. Or did Finduilas do some editing?
Thanks for leading this part of "Of Turin Turambar", Nix of Mirkwood!
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Nix of Mirkwood
Nevrast
Dec 14 2009, 4:32pm
Post #8 of 11
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I've always been a bit cynical of the Valar myself.
Concerning what you said about Eru's words, I want to say no, but I can't think of anything very convincing. But here's a crazy thought: could he have meant that whatever Melkor could conjure up, there will always be some of his (Eru's) Children there to defend their own and to unite against the evils of Melkor? Maybe he meant that the true fruits of his Creation will come out the stronger after all the toils Melkor can make them go through...
~We must away ere break of day
To seek the pale enchanted gold~
(This post was edited by Nix of Mirkwood on Dec 14 2009, 4:32pm)
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 14 2009, 5:55pm
Post #9 of 11
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Had I been, your threads would not have been so shamefully neglected...
But as they are in the old boards, I cannot redeem them.
"Do not be troubled. The tale shall wait."
- Turambar
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Dec 15 2009, 9:00pm
Post #10 of 11
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Thanks for a lively and thought-provoking discussion!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Dec 15 2009, 9:11pm
Post #11 of 11
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Now that I've refreshed my memory on the Gwindor/Finduilas/Turin love triangle, I find nothing to fault with Gwindor's behavior. He spoke only as love would have him speak. He really meant it when he bid Finduilas to follow her heart rather than feel beholden to him. But he also had every right--indeed a duty--to warn the maiden that he loved that she could get dragged down into a curse.
He witnessed the murder of Beleg with his own eyes, at the hands of one who loved him most. He it was who risked his fragile freedom and very life to save a helpless madman, and nursed him back from madness. He's not going to spite Turin now over a jilted lover's jealousy--he has already proved his quality. But Turin, even more than Finduilas, needs a reality check in the worst kind of way.
All I see him dishing out here is tough love--to both parties. Tragically, however, since those who don't want to listen to him could attribute his motives to jealousy, the situation itself undermines all of the excellent advice that he might give. Thus wisdom goes discredited right when it's needed most.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Dec 15 2009, 9:13pm)
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