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Nix of Mirkwood
Nevrast
Dec 10 2009, 2:49pm
Post #1 of 8
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Chapter XXI - "Of Túrin Turambar" Part 4
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Today’s focus will be on the part involving Mîm the Dwarf.
After parting with Beleg, Túrin decides it’s time for a change and leads his company out of the Sirion vale to travel westward. They come upon a company of Dwarves who all manage to escape, save one. Mîm is captured by the thieves and made to show them to his house in Amon Rûdh as ransom.
Why do Túrin and company attack the Dwarves and capture Mîm? Are the Dwarves their natural enemies or something? I may have misread, but there seemed no reason for them to do so… the Dwarves did not seem hostile. Túrin seems to pity the pleading Dwarf, so why does he attack him in the first place? Didn’t he decide to give up highway robbery and turn to more noble deeds?
They finally arrive to Amon Rûdh, just like Túrin told Beleg they would. If you remember, he had told his friend to find him there. However, Túrin shows no intention of heading for the mountain when he leads his companions out of the vale of Sirion.
Where do you think this attraction to Amon Rûdh stems from? How did he know he would end up there? Mîm could have very well led them somewhere else… Were they fated to end up on that mountain?
Mîm invites them into his house, which he renames Bar-en-Danwedh, the House of Ransom.
Do you find it interesting how places are constantly being renamed according to the events that take place in them? Are these constant changes of names a way of recording History in Tolkien? I can think of two other examples off the top of my head: Dor-Cuárthol, the Land of Bow and Helm, and Haudh-en-Ndengin, the Hill of the Slain, otherwise known as Haudh-en-Nirnaeth, the Hill of Tears.
At their arrival, Mîm learns of the death of one of his sons who was hit by Túrin’s arrow. Túrin is aggrieved by his deed and says the following: “Alas! I would recall that shaft, if I could. […] if ever I come to any wealth, I will pay you a ransom of gold for your son, in token of sorrow, though it gladden your heart no more.”
Mîm praises him for his speech and seems satisfied.
Do you think the grieving father may have forgiven the death of his son a little too quickly? It seems a bit odd to me that that’s all it took to appease him… Wouldn’t any one else want revenge? And if Túrin regretted what he had done so sincerely, why did he shoot at the fleeing Dwarves in the first place? Why didn’t he just let them go?
So Túrin and company settle into Mîm’s house. The year draws on and winter comes, and Beleg finally shows up again and decides to stay for a while. Mîm is not very pleased with the new living arrangements and resents Beleg, and Elf, for invading his home, so he withdraws with his son deep into his cave.
What bothers me here is that Túrin doesn’t seem to notice that his Dwarf friend (and they were getting along well until Beleg’s arrival – Túrin would sit with Mîm and listen to his stories) was not at all pleased and was becoming sullen. Does anyone else resent how little civility Túrin showed his host? Even though the Dwarf does prove to be a rotten little fellow later on, he does not seem to deserve such treatment at this point. He was being held hostage unfairly (in my opinion) and made to pay his ransom by allowing a gang of wild men to live in his home. This puts a bit of a black mark on Túrin’s record in my eye. Is this arrogance on his part? Are we beginning to see hints of his tragic flaw here?
Mîm and his remaining son, Ibun, are sent on errands by the Men to gather roots and whatnot. (So they’re servants in their own home now too?) On one of their excavations, they are captured by Orcs and forced to reveal the location of their home a second time. Mîm shows some loyalty to Túrin here, even though he ends up betraying him in the end. He asks that the Orcs to spare Túrin’s life. The Orcs, of course, have something else in store for him so they reply: “Assuredly Túrin son of Húrin shall not be slain.” So he leads them to his house, and the Orcs kill most of the Men and Túrin is captured.
We all know Dwarves are not exactly known for superior intellect, but did he really believe that he was ensuring Túrin’s safety this way?
Why does Mîm keep offering to reveal the secret location of his halls as ransom so readily? Why does he imagine it to be so interesting to people? Evidently the Orcs had a lot to gain by finding it, by why does Mîm always offer it up so easily? Túrin hadn’t even considered invading the Dwarf’s home until the Dwarf himself suggested it. It seems a bit odd, doesn’t it?
And lastly, how did the Orcs know that the Dwarves were harboring the son of Húrin? One would think they were just lucky in finding Mîm, but it’s as if they knew exactly who they were after…
That’s quite enough out of me for today! Tomorrow: how Túrin is saved from the clutches of the Orcs.
~We must away ere break of day
To seek the pale enchanted gold~
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 10 2009, 3:41pm
Post #2 of 8
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Why do Túrin and company attack the Dwarves and capture Mîm? Are the Dwarves their natural enemies or something?
Anyone who might compete with an outlaw for shelter and/or food is an outlaw's natural enemy.
I may have misread, but there seemed no reason for them to do so… the Dwarves did not seem hostile. Túrin seems to pity the pleading Dwarf, so why does he attack him in the first place?
Was Turin there? I'm sorry, but I don't remember.
Didn’t he decide to give up highway robbery and turn to more noble deeds?
Yes. For which he needs food and shelter.
Where do you think this attraction to Amon Rûdh stems from? How did he know he would end up there?
It was lonely and commanded a good view of the lands around it. Quite good security, relatively speaking. Just like Watership Down.
Mîm could have very well led them somewhere else… Were they fated to end up on that mountain?
I'm sure they were.
Do you find it interesting how places are constantly being renamed according to the events that take place in them? Are these constant changes of names a way of recording History in Tolkien?
Yes. And also in real life - which I'm sure Tolkien knew well and meant in this case.
Do you think the grieving father may have forgiven the death of his son a little too quickly? It seems a bit odd to me that that’s all it took to appease him… Wouldn’t any one else want revenge?
Mim also wanted revenge. But in the meantime, he had to satisfy his unpalatable guests.
And if Túrin regretted what he had done so sincerely, why did he shoot at the fleeing Dwarves in the first place? Why didn’t he just let them go?
I don't think it was he who shot that shaft.
What bothers me here is that Túrin doesn’t seem to notice that his Dwarf friend (and they were getting along well until Beleg’s arrival – Túrin would sit with Mîm and listen to his stories) was not at all pleased and was becoming sullen. Does anyone else resent how little civility Túrin showed his host?
Turin never seemed to show to much Emotional Intelligence in general. But it was not only his fault - Saeros anyone?
Is this arrogance on his part?
Yes. But in general, military Lords who defend the peasants tend to become arrogant towards them.
Are we beginning to see hints of his tragic flaw here?
It will be worse with Brandir; and might even be a crooked forerunner of Turin's betraying Gwindor (in effect, but not in intent).
So they’re servants in their own home now too?
Let's call it providers of food for all the tenants, themselves included.
We all know Dwarves are not exactly known for superior intellect, but did he really believe that he was ensuring Túrin’s safety this way?
I resent that insinuation. Dwarves are very intelligent.
Was Mim fooled? I'm not really sure. As you said before, somewhere in the background revenge was still smouldering.
Why does Mîm keep offering to reveal the secret location of his halls as ransom so readily? Why does he imagine it to be so interesting to people? Evidently the Orcs had a lot to gain by finding it, by why does Mîm always offer it up so easily? Túrin hadn’t even considered invading the Dwarf’s home until the Dwarf himself suggested it. It seems a bit odd, doesn’t it?
Turin asked for shelter, and this was the best to offer; also Mim gave his word.
The Orcs will rid him of the nasty intruders.
And lastly, how did the Orcs know that the Dwarves were harboring the son of Húrin? One would think they were just lucky in finding Mîm, but it’s as if they knew exactly who they were after…
The Helm of Hador.
"Of what sort are the women of that land?"
- Saeros
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Dec 10 2009, 6:42pm
Post #3 of 8
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Why do Túrin and company attack the Dwarves and capture Mîm? Are the Dwarves their natural enemies or something?
It could be bigotry. Elves don't love dwarves, and Hurin was raised by elves. Not any particular hostility, mind, but perhaps in their mind dwarves were fair game. Especially since they're just now transitioning from thinking of everybody as fair game.
I may have misread, but there seemed no reason for them to do so… the Dwarves did not seem hostile. Túrin seems to pity the pleading Dwarf, so why does he attack him in the first place?
Turin seems to act first and think later. But he didn't shoot the arrow. One of his men did. And Lost Tales shows that one of his outlaws in particular was Trouble in Boots, difficult to rein in. Even if you mean well, if you set yourself up as a leader over evil men, evil will happen.
Didn’t he decide to give up highway robbery and turn to more noble deeds?
In theory, yes. But it takes time to change the direction of one's life.
Where do you think this attraction to Amon Rûdh stems from? How did he know he would end up there?
It has huge strategic value. Long before he knew that a dwarf family lived under it, he would have seen it from afar and thought, "My, what a defensible and far-seeing base of operations that would make!" In fact, Mim telling him where he lived might seem like a divine gift to Turin, and confirm him in dwelling there. Except we delude ourselves when we imagine that divine gifts can come of crimes, and attacking the dwarves, whether they admitted it or not, was a crime.
Mîm could have very well led them somewhere else… Were they fated to end up on that mountain?
Mim operates under a Middle Earth code of honor, which even Gollum found hard to weasel out of (though eventually he found his loophole.) He promised Amon Rudh, and so he had to deliver Amon Rudh. And why did he promise it? What else of ransom-worth could he offer?
Do you find it interesting how places are constantly being renamed according to the events that take place in them? Are these constant changes of names a way of recording History in Tolkien?
It makes things more realistic. Before the Real Estate Industry started generating meaningless names, like "Oak Hollows" with nary an oak in sight, names derived from their histories and/or the nature of the land. And these change. Sometimes that happens today, too, as in the San Fernando Valley now becoming Silicon Valley. And Istanbul was once Constanople, which was once Byzantium, etc.
Do you think the grieving father may have forgiven the death of his son a little too quickly? It seems a bit odd to me that that’s all it took to appease him… Wouldn’t any one else want revenge?
It was Turin's manner, like a dwarf lord of old, that moved him more than anything. I think on some level, Mim was sincere. Unfortunately, he's also an outcast dwarf--something of an outlaw in his own right. The old dwarf lords had to have some reason for banishing his people--which makes comparing Turin to a dwarf lord a little more emotionally complicated for Mim than it might at first appear.
And if Túrin regretted what he had done so sincerely, why did he shoot at the fleeing Dwarves in the first place? Why didn’t he just let them go?
Because he's an impulsive fool, and his men are worse. I don't think he himself shot the arrow. But he probably had a hand in nabbing Mim.
What bothers me here is that Túrin doesn’t seem to notice that his Dwarf friend (and they were getting along well until Beleg’s arrival – Túrin would sit with Mîm and listen to his stories) was not at all pleased and was becoming sullen. Does anyone else resent how little civility Túrin showed his host?
See "fool", above. Turin is DENSE! And haven't you seen people act in exactly this manner in waking life? How many murders would never have happened if only somebody had looked up and said, "Gee, good ol' Iago looks upset about something--maybe I should talk to him?"
Is this arrogance on his part?
Among other things, yes. Arrogance can contribute to cluelessness. "Oh, I'm doing great, everybody loves me!" Uh-uh.
Are we beginning to see hints of his tragic flaw here?
Darn straight we are!
So they’re servants in their own home now too?
In a sense. Though they need to eat, too.
We all know Dwarves are not exactly known for superior intellect, but did he really believe that he was ensuring Túrin’s safety this way?
It took a superior intellect to build Khazad-Dum. I don't see any evidence that they're particularly dull of wit as a whole.
He might have unconsciously wished Turin dead, yet consciously wanted to spare him--if nothing else to maintain his oath, and hence his self-respect. In any case, I think the orcs forced his hand, leaving him nothing left to defend Turin with but pleading. I do consider Beleg's curse unjust. But then Beleg, seeing Mim eyeing him with murderous intent, might have assumed a matching hatred for Turin, which wasn't necessarily there.
Why does Mîm keep offering to reveal the secret location of his halls as ransom so readily? Why does he imagine it to be so interesting to people? Evidently the Orcs had a lot to gain by finding it, by why does Mîm always offer it up so easily? Túrin hadn’t even considered invading the Dwarf’s home until the Dwarf himself suggested it. It seems a bit odd, doesn’t it?
Amon Rudh is the only bargaining chip that the petty-dwarf has.
And lastly, how did the Orcs know that the Dwarves were harboring the son of Húrin? One would think they were just lucky in finding Mîm, but it’s as if they knew exactly who they were after…
Hurin advertised it pretty blatantly, wearing his father's helm. And the orcs probably interrogated everybody they captured in the vicinity, trying to find him. No doubt many an ignorant wayfarer got tortured to death for information he didn't have, before the orcs got lucky.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Nix of Mirkwood
Nevrast
Dec 11 2009, 12:07pm
Post #4 of 8
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Was Turin there? I'm sorry, but I don't remember.
[..]
I don't think it was he who shot that shaft.
He was there, but it's not exactly clear who shot the arrow. He does say he wishes he could recall it, so it sort of suggests he was the one who fired it... but it could be him taking responsibility for one of his men...
~We must away ere break of day
To seek the pale enchanted gold~
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Dec 11 2009, 2:48pm
Post #5 of 8
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He was there, but it's not exactly clear who shot the arrow. He does say he wishes he could recall it, so it sort of suggests he was the one who fired it... but it could be him taking responsibility for one of his men...
In the Silmarillion text, it states that the arrow was shot by "a man of the company." While not very clear, I think that is sufficient to show that it was not shot by Turin himself. In the Narn (both as presented in UT an in CoH) there is of course much more detail, and it told that the shooter of the arrow, Andróg, was cursed by Mîm, who said that if he ever shot an arrow again, he would die by it (a curse which of course came true). In the Grey Annals, interestingly, Mîm is completely absent, and Turin's company is betrayed by an Easterling named Blodren, son of Ban.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
www.arda-reconstructed.com
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Dec 13 2009, 7:47pm
Post #6 of 8
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Why do Túrin and company attack the Dwarves and capture Mîm? Are the Dwarves their natural enemies or something? I may have misread, but there seemed no reason for them to do so… the Dwarves did not seem hostile. Túrin seems to pity the pleading Dwarf, so why does he attack him in the first place? Didn’t he decide to give up highway robbery and turn to more noble deeds?
Perhaps Turin and Co. wanted to make sure their movements were known by none and were unwilling to risk that these Dwarves might report their whereabouts to someone. Seems pretty extreme, but that's all I can come up with.
Do you find it interesting how places are constantly being renamed according to the events that take place in them?
Yes, it's interesting...but also a bit mind-boggling!
Are these constant changes of names a way of recording History in Tolkien?
Could be.
Do you think the grieving father may have forgiven the death of his son a little too quickly? It seems a bit odd to me that that’s all it took to appease him… Wouldn’t any one else want revenge? And if Túrin regretted what he had done so sincerely, why did he shoot at the fleeing Dwarves in the first place? Why didn’t he just let them go?
Well, yes...these rather short scene does seem rather abrupt (or abbreviated). And I don't have a copy of CoH (and it's been a while since I read it) to check on whether this is expanded on or not. I'm not certain if Turin's words *really* impressed Mim or if Mim simply knows he's in no position to do otherwise, at this moment.
What bothers me here is that Túrin doesn’t seem to notice that his Dwarf friend (and they were getting along well until Beleg’s arrival – Túrin would sit with Mîm and listen to his stories) was not at all pleased and was becoming sullen. Does anyone else resent how little civility Túrin showed his host?
Seems to me that Mim's hatred for Beleg played a big role in his decision to exclude himself from the group. Perhaps Turin could have shown more skill as a host, but he is by far the youngest and least experienced of that trio so I don't lay all the fault of that situation on him.
We all know Dwarves are not exactly known for superior intellect, but did he really believe that he was ensuring Túrin’s safety this way?
Did he really intend to?
And lastly, how did the Orcs know that the Dwarves were harboring the son of Húrin? One would think they were just lucky in finding Mîm, but it’s as if they knew exactly who they were after…
"...and ere long Amon Rudh was ringed with spies." Those dasterdly spies again!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Dec 13 2009, 9:50pm
Post #7 of 8
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This shows, to my mind, that Turin has grown. With Saeros, he called himself wronged before anyone even took action, and did not take even partial blame for driving Saeros to his death (he was no murderer, but he did react over the top.) Here he much more gracefully accepts responsibility for an unjust death, and hopes to make amends.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Nix of Mirkwood
Nevrast
Dec 14 2009, 4:25pm
Post #8 of 8
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...but I like it! It's a thought!
~We must away ere break of day
To seek the pale enchanted gold~
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