|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nix of Mirkwood
Nevrast
Dec 7 2009, 7:07am
Post #1 of 6
(437 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Chapter XXI - "Of Túrin Turambar" Part 1
|
Can't Post
|
|
Hello everyone! I’m very pleased to be your discussion leader for Part 1 of Túrin Turambar!
I’m not very good with time difference, but it’s Monday morning where I am so I hope my timing is good for everyone.
Alright, what I would like to do is start with a few general thoughts and observations I’ve come up with during my readings of this chapter, and then move on to more specific questions in later posts.
Interestingly enough, the chapter does not start with Túrin’s parentage, but rather with Tuor’s. Do you think that is more of a stylistic choice or does it have any significance with regards to later chapters?
We know that Morwen chose to stay in Dor-lómin despite the immediate danger she and her children were in. However, when Túrin was eight years old, his mother sent him to Doriath with two aged servants to live under the protection of the King. This part has a very fairy tail-like aspect, doesn’t it? The aged servants, the chosen child sent away for his protection, a King in a far away and secret land… Or is it just the little girl who refused to grow up inside me talking?
Morwen sends the Dragon Helm of Dor-lómin along with her son, which he later claims to go into battle. The following may not be that obvious to everyone, but it’s just where my train of thought led me, so bear with me. It seems to me that throughout the Silmarillion, there is never any mention of written law or constitution of any form. And yet, the characters in the story always seem to be agreed upon what is right and what is wrong, and when people claim their rights, they are never contested. What is Tolkien telling us here? Is it that people have an inherent sense of right and wrong? Or is it that the Elves are just innately just and righteous? I think it could be both, but what do you think? Don’t Men need rules to govern by?
This also got me thinking about the Realm beyond the Sea. We all know the Elves go there when their time to leave Middle-earth, for whatever reason, comes, and we also know that some chosen people, such as the Ring Bearers, also travel there. But what of… everyone else? Does Tolkien ever talk about that? And where do Orcs and other demonic beings end up? Do they just disappear?
Finally, one last general comment before we move on to the actual chapter. While I was reading the Lord of the Rings, I found the references to the “days of old” very striking. Many of the older characters talk about them in a very nostalgic kind of way, as if those times will never come again, and as if to lament their passing. Then when I read the Silmarillion, which relates the tails of the Elder Days, I found that it was the same thing. People always speak of times gone by with fondness and regret. They talk about their ancestors and their great deeds. But aren’t the characters in the Silmarillion supposed to be living in those times? It got me to thinking about something one of my professors at university said once, that everyone always talks about the “good old days”. But doesn’t that mean that there were no “good old days” really? Any thoughts on this matter?
Alright, I think that’s quite enough for today. I’ll be back tomorrow hopefully with more on Túrin Turambar. ‘Til then!
~We must away ere break of day
To seek the pale enchanted gold~
(This post was edited by Nix of Mirkwood on Dec 7 2009, 7:08am)
|
|
|
sador
Gondolin
Dec 7 2009, 9:38am
Post #2 of 6
(303 views)
Shortcut
|
Do you think that is more of a stylistic choice or does it have any significance with regards to later chapters?
I actually mentioned it last week! 
My thought is that Tolkien wanted to end the previous chapter with the erection of the Haudh-en-Nirnaeth, as a wrap-up to the battle; and this chapter refers to the doom of the house of Hador. Rian's death is a part of that.
We know that Morwen chose to stay in Dor-lómin despite the immediate danger she and her children were in. However, when Túrin was eight years old, his mother sent him to Doriath with two aged servants to live under the protection of the King.
No, that was quite immediately after. Note that Turin was sent before Nienor was born, and that must have meant nine months at the most after the Nirnaeth.
In The Children of Hurin, Morwen knows she is pregnant before Hurin rides away, and is still pretty strong when Turin leaves for Doriath - which makes the interval even shorter.
This part has a very fairy tail-like aspect, doesn’t it?
You meant fairy-tale-like aspect, didn't you?
Just checking. 
But well, it does sound a bit like King Arthur as a child.
The aged servants, the chosen child sent away for his protection, a King in a far away and secret land… Or is it just the little girl who refused to grow up inside me talking?
Not at all; it's perfectly correct.
It seems to me that throughout the Silmarillion, there is never any mention of written law or constitution of any form. And yet, the characters in the story always seem to be agreed upon what is right and what is wrong, and when people claim their rights, they are never contested. What is Tolkien telling us here? Is it that people have an inherent sense of right and wrong? Or is it that the Elves are just innately just and righteous? I think it could be both, but what do you think?
I guess Tolkien would believe this, based on his religion. I personally do.
And check this discussion of orkish morality.
Don’t Men need rules to govern by?
So do Elves; both Thingol and Turgon sit in judgement, and Finrod has something to say about his subjects forgeting their oaths.
They might not need a written constitution, though - nit with their memory.
But what of… everyone else? Does Tolkien ever talk about that? And where do Orcs and other demonic beings end up? Do they just disappear? Oh, he wrote about it a lot; he was really bothered with the problem of Orcs.
But why should I even try to summarise this, when squire has already done such an excellent job?
But aren’t the characters in the Silmarillion supposed to be living in those times? It got me to thinking about something one of my professors at university said once, that everyone always talks about the “good old days”. But doesn’t that mean that there were no “good old days” really? Any thoughts on this matter?
That's a real question! See Eccles. 7:10.
But I'm pretty sure Tolkien did believe in the "good old days" (as Curious used to be fond of arguing).
And here, specifically - well, the days while the Siege of Angband lasted were pretty good, weren't they?
"Of what sort are the women of that land?"
- Saeros
|
|
|
Nix of Mirkwood
Nevrast
Dec 7 2009, 2:07pm
Post #3 of 6
(303 views)
Shortcut
|
Yes, of course I meant fairy tale. I should probably say this now before I embarrass myself any further: my spelling is terrible, so I apologize to everyone in advance...
I'm afraid I didn't have time to follow your thread, sador  That's unfortunate. I hope I don't repeat too many things that have already been mentioned...
In reply to what you wrote: "No, that was quite immediately after. Note that Turin was sent before Nienor was born, and that must have meant nine months at the most after the Nirnaeth."
...I don't understand what you mean; do we disagree? I'm aware Turin wasn't around when his sister was born, but he was eight years old.
"Now after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad Morwen abode still in Dor-lomin, for Turin was but eight years old, and she was again with child." (paragraph 3 of chapter 21)
What do you mean "quite immediately after"?
~We must away ere break of day
To seek the pale enchanted gold~
|
|
|
sador
Gondolin
Dec 8 2009, 10:01am
Post #4 of 6
(262 views)
Shortcut
|
I'm afraid I didn't have time to follow your thread, sador That's unfortunate. I hope I don't repeat too many things that have already been mentioned...
Whoever is leading the next week is officially excused from participating in this week's discussion. However, I expect you to return to it later...
If you are interested in things which might be relevant to your chapter, then Thingol and Melian are briefly discussed in thread I, Beleg and Mablung in II, Nargothrong in III, Gwindor in V, the dwarves (not the Petty-dwarves, but this might be interesting) in VI, the Easterlings in IX and the curse of Morgoth in X.
In reply to what you wrote: "No, that was quite immediately after. Note that Turin was sent before Nienor was born, and that must have meant nine months at the most after the Nirnaeth."
...I don't understand what you mean; do we disagree? I'm aware Turin wasn't around when his sister was born, but he was eight years old.
I'm afraid you weren't clear enough in your first post (at least, not clear enough for me). You wrote:
We know that Morwen chose to stay in Dor-lómin despite the immediate danger she and her children were in. However, when Túrin was eight years old, his mother sent him to Doriath with two aged servants to live under the protection of the King.
I took the "however" to mean that after a long time has passed, Morwen had a change of heart, and took new counsel for her son. Perhaps I misread you.
"Of what sort are the women of that land?"
- Saeros
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Doriath
Dec 8 2009, 7:42pm
Post #5 of 6
(270 views)
Shortcut
|
I had to chuckle--right after he corrected your "fairy-tails" Sador wrote, "...nit with their memory", which led me to imagine rather talented nits, burrowing deep enough into the scalp to resurface with memories, perhaps reciting them in squeaky voices. Or perhaps he meant that elves are particularly nit-picky about their memories. Or maybe it was a Freudian slip.
It is often thus--whenever I correct anybody else's grammur or spelling, I always make a mistake, myself!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
|
|
|
Nix of Mirkwood
Nevrast
Dec 9 2009, 6:48am
Post #6 of 6
(302 views)
Shortcut
|
|
And why break with tradition now?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Thank you for stopping by to help us with our lousy grammur Dreamdeer!  That was a great start to my morning!
Cheers
~We must away ere break of day
To seek the pale enchanted gold~
|
|
|
|
|
