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sador
Gondolin
Dec 3 2009, 6:28pm
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Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Part VIII - The Last Stand of Húrin
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Then Turgon took the counsel of Húrin and Huor, and summoning all that remained of the host of Gondolin and such of Fingon’s people as could be gathered he retreated towards the Pass of Sirion; and his captains Ecthelion and Glorfindel guarded the flanks to right and left, so that none of the enemy should pass them by. I expect most first-time readers recognized these two names from LotR. Ecthelion might have rang a bell and no more, but Glorfindel surely came to most as a pleasant surprise!
1. Trying to remember your first reading – how many expected it to be the Glorfindel of Rivendell? And how many remembered Elrond’s connection with Gondolin?
2. Is Turgon summoning the remnant of Fingon’s people to him a way of claiming the High Kingship of the Noldor?
But the Men of Dor-lómin held the rearguard, as Húrin and Huor desired; for they did not wish in their hearts to leave the Northlands, and if they could not win back to their Homes, there they would stand to the end. Thus was the treachery of Uldor redressed...
3. Wasn’t retreating back to Gondolin better than dying in the fens?
4. Why was the stand of the Men of Dor-lómin the redressing of Uldor’s trachery, rather than the keeping faith of the sons of Bór?
5. In LotR, we have at least one case of a leader deciding to emulate Húrin. Who?
So Turgon escapes down the Sirion, and vanishes into the mountains. Then the brothers withdraw foot by foot, they leave the Fen of Serech behind them, and make their last stand before the stream of Rivil.
There as the sun westered on the sixth day, and the shadow of Ered Wethrin grew dark, Huor fell pierced with a venomed arrow in his eye, and all the valiant Men of Hador were slain about him in a heap; and the Orcs hewed their heads and piled them as a mound of gold in the sunset.
I wonder whether Huor died from the impact of the arrow, or from the poison. I would love to think one alone could not kill him!
6. I remember we discussed this before – but how often in Tolkien people died because of arrows piercing their eyes? What does such a manner of death mean, or imply? How realistic is it in such a battle?
As far as I know – this is the only case in Tolkien when someone actually dies from a poisioned wound caused by the enemy, although twice the fear of such poison is mentioned (where?); on the other hand, we do know of a poisoned dart used by an elf – the javelin with which Eöl killed Aredhel!
7. Comments?
Last of all Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Húrin cried: ‘Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!’ Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth... Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him to Angband with mockery.
Well, this is the heroic end to the heroic last stand of the remnant of the House of Hador. Seventy times Húrin slays, probably most were trolls.
8. Is this feat believable?
9. Does the two-handed axe recall Gothmog hewing Fingon with his black axe?
10. Does Húrin’s Elvish call reflect Fingon’s before the battle begun? Or the battle-cry of Dor-lómin (see in my footer)? What do you make of the similarity?
11. Who made the song anyhow? How did they know? Did they torture orcs to get this description? Did Húrin brag to Thingol of it?
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As I’ve mentioned before, in the early versions of this story, Gondolin was built only after Turgon escaped the Nirnaeth. Turgon, as the King’s Heir (his son in The Book of Lost Tales, his brother in the later versions) was one of the chief captains. After the High King was killed, Turgon gathered all the survivors around him, and clove a way out of the battle; only after returning to Hithlum to pick up the women and children and some goods, did he seek the hidden valley in which he built the White City.
12. Which version makes more sense? I suppose about everyone will agree the later one is better, but why?
The last stand of the men of Úrin goes back to the very first outlines of The Book of Lost Tales, and other than adding Huor and some changes in the geography, hardly much is to be said.
One thing should be mentioned though; the troll-guard of Gothmog was originally a body guard of Balrogs. Seventy Balrogs did Húrin slay! And it was not just him – Tuor and Ecthelion between them killed some ten in The Fall of Gondolin; and as late as 1937, in the Quenta Silmarillion (The Lost Road p. 310), when Morgoth lets loose his last strength, “There came wolves and serpents, and there came Balrogs one thousand, and there came Glómund the Father of Dragons”!
I’m pretty sure at this stage Tolkien still thought of the Balrogs as merely some sort of uber-orcs, but not the demons of the Ancient World which Legolas talks about in Lothlórien. As late as the first draft of the post-LotR version of The Annals of Aman, Morgoth sent forth a host of Balrogs from Utumno (Morgoth’s Ring p. 75), and only in a note added in the margin of the typescript, Tolkien wrote “There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed” (ibid, p. 80).
Another intersting point to add is that in A Short Rest, Elrond mentions the fate of Gondolin: “dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago” – no mention of balrogs, who from the first versions were the captains of Melko’s hosts!
13. So I wonder – were the Balrogs considered among the goblins when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit? If so (considering that in The Lost Road p. 336, some Balrogs are said to have fled and hidden in the deep places of Middle-earth), is it inconceivable that some of the super-huge goblins were not thought of as Orcs (as Tolkien had it in the appendix about Durin’s Folk to LotR), but as Balrogs? Was the Great Goblin a Balrog? Was Azog?
I know this last suggestion seems a bit over the top; but oddly enough, a similar idea does appear in section X of Myths Transformed (Morgoth’s Ring p. 418):
Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible. Thus it is that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.
This should include even Gorbag and Shagrat, who in The Choices of Master Samwise discussed the good ‘old times’!
14. So to sum up – were the Great Goblin and Azog Maiar like the Balrogs, only of lesser potency?
”’Farewell, Lady of Dor-Lomin; we ride now with greater hope than ever we have known before...‘
...and the sun glittered on fifty blades as they leaped forth, and the court rang with the battle-cry of the Edain of the North: ’Lacho calad! Drego morn! Flame Light! Flee Night!‘
Then at last Hurin sprang into his saddle, and his golden banner was unfurled, and the trumpets sang again in the morning; and thus Hurin Thalion rode away to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.“
- The Children of Hurin, ch. 1.
For the hopes and their dashing, for valour and defeat, for the fair morning, the baleful nightfall, and the hope that Day will come again – join us in the Reading Room this week.
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Ashkan1984
Lindon
Dec 4 2009, 9:33am
Post #2 of 10
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An arrow in the eye in Persian mythology
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Regarding Sador's question about an arrow in the eye of Huor, it might help to say that a similar concept exists in the Persian mythological story of "Rostam and Esfandyar" composed by the great Persian poet Ferdowsi (who lived thousands of years before Tolkien). I will not go into details of Ferdowsi's works, which really embody a "history" of Persia.
In short, Esfandyar, in order to defeat the protagonist Rostam, dips into a liquid which guarantees the protection of his body against spears, swords, arrows, etc. However, he closes his eyes before dipping into the liquid (and you can bring many reasons why he did so). In the final battle, Rostam shoots an arrow into Esfandyar's eye, which kills him.
If you read the story in full, the arrow in the eye gains significance in several ways. It can be explained in terms of Esfandyar's character (he found refuge in his new impenetrable body from the absurdities of war) or Rostam's character (who has his own tradegy when he kills his son by mistake) or from the general fact that there is always a weak point even in the most valiant (both physically and spiritually).
I wonder whether Professor Tolkien was acquainted with Persian mythology.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Dec 4 2009, 10:49am
Post #3 of 10
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Ouch, that could take someone's eye out! But arrows this case always reminds me of poor King Harold Godwinsson at Hastings!
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Dec 5 2009, 2:21am
Post #4 of 10
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1. Trying to remember your first reading – how many expected it to be the Glorfindel of Rivendell?
Oh--this is not the same Glorfindel? Surely sometime during the past year or so, *that* issue has come up? Being that it's not been that long since my first reading, I will only offer that the name rang a bell (distantly) and I don't recall connecting it with Rivendell.
And how many remembered Elrond’s connection with Gondolin?
Nope, didn't catch that either.
2. Is Turgon summoning the remnant of Fingon’s people to him a way of claiming the High Kingship of the Noldor?
I don't read this as Turgon necessarily claiming anything at this point. Seems he is doing the best he can to get the survivors out of harm's way. Setting the Feanor clan aside, (I assume) he is now the eldest living grandson of Finwe. Two thirds of Fingolfin's children--gone; three-fifths of Finarfin's children--gone. Sad..
3. Wasn’t retreating back to Gondolin better than dying in the fens?
Not for the men of Dor-lomin. That kind of thinking is nearly beyond my comprehension.
4. Why was the stand of the Men of Dor-lómin the redressing of Uldor’s trachery, rather than the keeping faith of the sons of Bór?
Some kind of explanation for this is just on the edge of my brain. It's somewhere along the lines of not getting praised for acts that are expected of one (keeping the faith of...) but instead getting attention for acts that appear to counter another deed. I have a feeling that doesn't make a lot of sense...but there it is.
5. In LotR, we have at least one case of a leader deciding to emulate Húrin. Who?
Reminds me of Boromir.
6. I remember we discussed this before – but how often in Tolkien people died because of arrows piercing their eyes? What does such a manner of death mean, or imply? How realistic is it in such a battle?
Yes, I think I remember that, too. Something about how likely would it be that one arrow would make it through that particular spot in a helmet?
7. Comments?
Um...Frodo...Shelob's stinger and the Wraith's blade?
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 6 2009, 9:24am
Post #5 of 10
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Oh--this is not the same Glorfindel? Surely sometime during the past year or so, *that* issue has come up?
It has indeed come up pretty often.
Tolkien himself wasn't so sure about this, but his later writings imply that he concluded the Glorfindel of Gondolin was reincarnated and allowed to return to Middle-earth.
But in someone's first reading, s/he will know that Gondolin fell eventually, and that there were some survivors (Earendil was one) - but not whether Glorfindel was one of them.
That was in effect the question - whether this name makes one more expectant; [ and whether reading chapter 23, one feels a letdown.] ]
That kind of thinking is nearly beyond my comprehension. Yes, to most people in the modern world - although I suppose the perception in the ancient days was different. I wonder whether that's a good or bad thing?
Some kind of explanation for this is just on the edge of my brain. It's somewhere along the lines of not getting praised for acts that are expected of one (keeping the faith of...) but instead getting attention for acts that appear to counter another deed. I have a feeling that doesn't make a lot of sense...but there it is.
It does, a lot of sense.
(Of course, the simplest answer is that this statement is a leftover from the Book of Lost Tales, in which the faithfulness of the sons of Bór was yet unthought-of, but I assume any such leftovers were carefully considered, and retained only if they still fit in)
5. In LotR, we have at least one case of a leader deciding to emulate Húrin. Who?
Reminds me of Boromir.
Where?
My idea was from The Battle of the Pelennor Fields:
Stern now was Éomer's mood, and his mind clear again. He let blow the horns to rally all his men to his banner that could come thither; for he thought to make a great shield-wall at the last, and stand, and fight there on foot till all fell, and do deeds of song on the fields of Pelennor, though no man should be left in the West to remember the last King of the Mark.
Um...Frodo...Shelob's stinger and the Wraith's blade?
No; I was asking about wounds caused by enemy darts, which are feared to be poisoned but turn out not to be.
There is Sam's orc-wound in Moria, which Aragorn proclaims not poisoned when he treats it in Lothlorien;
And Faramir's being hurt by a flying dart from the shadow when trying to gain the Gate of Minas Tirith, which Imrahil feared was poisoned and Aragorn said if it was he would have died that very night (The Houses of Healing).
”’Farewell, Lady of Dor-Lomin; we ride now with greater hope than ever we have known before...‘
...and the sun glittered on fifty blades as they leaped forth, and the court rang with the battle-cry of the Edain of the North: ’Lacho calad! Drego morn! Flame Light! Flee Night!‘
Then at last Hurin sprang into his saddle, and his golden banner was unfurled, and the trumpets sang again in the morning; and thus Hurin Thalion rode away to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.“
- The Children of Hurin, ch. 1.
For the hopes and their dashing, for valour and defeat, for the fair morning, the baleful nightfall, and the hope that Day will come again – join us in the Reading Room this week.
(This post was edited by Kyriel on Dec 6 2009, 12:40pm)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Dec 6 2009, 11:33pm
Post #6 of 10
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And killing many Goblins. Well, I can believe he killed seventy Orcs. After all, wasn't Hurin the mightest of all living men? And he was desperate. But this didn't do him much good in the long run. Hurin was still made the prisoner of Morgoth nonetheless. Now, had he killed 7000 Orcs......... Also, considering that this was a great triumph of Morgoth, I doubt if the Lord of despair gave a hoot about the lives of seventy Orcs!
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Dec 6 2009, 11:49pm
Post #7 of 10
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To question no.5! Didn't Eomer at the Battle of the Pelloner when he thought he was overwhellmed with foes decide to have the knights of Rohan come around him in a circle and make a stand to the death?
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 7 2009, 7:43am
Post #8 of 10
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I suppose most were trolls of Gothmog's bodyguard
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Which was why I asked how realistic this really was.
Although if the idea was to take him alive, perhaps sending trolls against him wasn't the best method: "Is the prisoner dead?" "Gosh, Sarge; I thought I was only stunning him - never thought his skull was so faragile!"
And killing many Goblins. Well, I can believe he killed seventy Orcs.
And regarding your other post - yes, you got it right, as I quoted in my answer to batik.
”’Farewell, Lady of Dor-Lomin; we ride now with greater hope than ever we have known before...‘
...and the sun glittered on fifty blades as they leaped forth, and the court rang with the battle-cry of the Edain of the North: ’Lacho calad! Drego morn! Flame Light! Flee Night!‘
Then at last Hurin sprang into his saddle, and his golden banner was unfurled, and the trumpets sang again in the morning; and thus Hurin Thalion rode away to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.“
- The Children of Hurin, ch. 1.
For the hopes and their dashing, for valour and defeat, for the fair morning, the baleful nightfall, and the hope that Day will come again – join us in the Reading Room this week.
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PhantomS
Nargothrond
Jan 31 2010, 6:52pm
Post #9 of 10
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1. Trying to remember your first reading – how many expected it to be the Glorfindel of Rivendell? And how many remembered Elrond’s connection with Gondolin? I thought it was the same guy, until I read about his battle with the Balrog and death. It was only until HoME 12 that I figured that Tolkien was thinking about sending Glorfindel back to Middle Earth, as a 'lord from beyond the Sea' to help Elrond. The golden hair is a tad strange, though,. 2. Is Turgon summoning the remnant of Fingon’s people to him a way of claiming the High Kingship of the Noldor? Turgon has the right to do so as he is a king and the only one left standing on the field. Plus Fingon is his brother and the sons of Fingolfin stick together to the end, their armies should too. Unlike Feanor's kids, there is no room for strife or grudges. 3. Wasn’t retreating back to Gondolin better than dying in the fens? The Men of Dor-lomin set out with the intent to win or die trying; retreating would only have them watch in horror as the northlands were taken by Morgoth. Theirs was a holding action to make sure Turgon's forces could escape. 4. Why was the stand of the Men of Dor-lómin the redressing of Uldor’s trachery, rather than the keeping faith of the sons of Bór? Uldor's men betrayed the plan and showed how spineless men were, the Men of Dor-lomin were brave to the very end even if they had no reward for it. The sons of Bor remained faithful , but they were under Elven banners- had they lived to stand alongside the Men of Dor-lomin they might have redressed it fullly; they did kill all of Ulfang's sons, though. 5. In LotR, we have at least one case of a leader deciding to emulate Húrin. Who? Boromir comes to mind with his defence of Merry and Pippin, then there is Theoden deciding to ride to his doom at the Hornburg, Eomer going wild at the Pelennor. We also have King Dain Ironfoot standing over King Brand's dead body and defending it to his own death, and the Lonely Mountain being under seige for three days. Forlong , a chieftain of Gondor was hewed by axes as he stood alone unhorsed. The only 'beserker' action that really comes off is Beorn in the Hobbit, who walks into an Orc army, kills, picks up the wounded Thorin and jumps back into the fray to kill more. 6. I remember we discussed this before – but how often in Tolkien people died because of arrows piercing their eyes? What does such a manner of death mean, or imply? How realistic is it in such a battle? It's never happenned at all,though if I'm not mistaken one of the Dwarf Kings or lords (Thrain II?) lost an eye at Azanulbizar. Throndor almost pecked Morgoth's eyes out, and that's pretty much it. Nailing the bullseye is either extremely good archery or extremely good luck. 7. Comments? 8. Is this feat believable? This is Hurin we're talking about, even as an old man much later he is an imposing figure who has to kill himself as no one is able to do it. The Numenoreans were scarier , so Hurin is the standard that they go by. 9. Does the two-handed axe recall Gothmog hewing Fingon with his black axe? It recalls Turin's adventures with his black sword. The axe smoked black with blood, it wasn't black itself. It also foreshadows Tuor picking up Drambor-leg in Gondolin later. A big axe is a better weapon for a tall man than a pointy sword. 10. Does Húrin’s Elvish call reflect Fingon’s before the battle begun? Or the battle-cry of Dor-lómin (see in my footer)? What do you make of the similarity? Fingon said 'day has come' and Hurin said 'Day will come again' . He has hope, something Morgoth will do anything to crush. 13. So I wonder – were the Balrogs considered among the goblins when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit? If so (considering that in The Lost Road p. 336, some Balrogs are said to have fled and hidden in the deep places of Middle-earth), is it inconceivable that some of the super-huge goblins were not thought of as Orcs (as Tolkien had it in the appendix about Durin’s Folk to LotR), but as Balrogs? Was the Great Goblin a Balrog? Was Azog? I know this last suggestion seems a bit over the top; but oddly enough, a similar idea does appear in section X of Myths Transformed ( Morgoth’s Ring p. 418):
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sador
Gondolin
Feb 1 2010, 12:39pm
Post #10 of 10
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A few further comments:
Turgon has the right to do so as he is a king and the only one left standing on the field. Plus Fingon is his brother and the sons of Fingolfin stick together to the end, their armies should too. Unlike Feanor's kids, there is no room for strife or grudges. What of Gil-galad?
The Men of Dor-lomin set out with the intent to win or die trying; retreating would only have them watch in horror as the northlands were taken by Morgoth.
That's an interesting take. But didn't they feel any responsibility for their wives and children?
The sons of Bor remained faithful , but they were under Elven banners- had they lived to stand alongside the Men of Dor-lomin they might have redressed it fullly
I'm not sure I've understood the difference. Could you please elaborate?
Eomer going wild at the Pelennor That's who I had in mind. Especially in the description of his stern mood when seeing the ships of the Corsairs.
A big axe is a better weapon for a tall man than a pointy sword. Actually, some time ago we had a proffessional swordmaker who explained that axes were specifically useful for dwarves, because they were short!
However, Hurin was actually relatively short for the Men of the House of Hador - according to the first chapter of The Children of Hurin.
oddly enough, a similar idea does appear in section X of Myths Transformed (Morgoth’s Ring p. 418)
The quote doesn't show! Ah well, I'll look it up at home.
Thank you again!
"Why should we not go to Avallónë and greet there our friends?" - the Númenóreans.
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