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sador
Gondolin
Nov 30 2009, 7:48pm
Post #1 of 5
(586 views)
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Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Part II - The New League
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So Maedhros makes his plans, and counts his allies. Unfortunately, his brothers (especially Celegorm and Curufin) have given the Fëanoreans a bad name enough to frighten many would-be recruits.
Orodreth would not march forth at the word of any son of Fëanor, because of the deeds of Celegorm and Curufin; and the Elves of Nargothrond trusted still to defend their hidden stronghold by secrecy and stealth. Thence came only a small company, following Gwindor son of Guilin, a very valiant prince; and against the will of Orodreth he went to the northern war...
1. That’s one ally less. But wasn’t the policy of ‘secrecy and stealth’ caused by Curufin’s crafty words only last chapter?
2. Wouldn’t the elves of Nargothrond have joined the Westren army of Fingon anyway? Why would Orodreth see the alliance as ‘marching forth at the words of a son of Fëanor’?
3. What of Celebrimbor? He stayed in Nargothrond after his father was expelled. Do you think he would join Gwindor’s company?
Doriath is also alienated – not least because Maedhros claims the Silmaril. Melian counsels Thingol to yield it, which he refuses; at which Celegorm and Curufin vow to slay Thingol after they come victorious from war.
4. Why can’t Maedhros be a bit more diplomatic, for the good of the cause?
5. In ‘The Noldor in Beleraind’, Maedhros is said to rebuke Caranthir for his words to Aegnor. Did Maedhros actually agree with Caranthir? Or did he only rebuke him for his words against the sons of Finarfin, while agreeing about Thingol?
6. What do you think of Melian’s counsel? Was it actually wise? If so, why – because it would enable the defeat of Morgoth? Because it would appease the Fëanoreans? Some other reason?
7. Thingol is said to have no less than four reasons to deny the summons: the proud and threatening words of sons of Fëanor, the memory of Beren and Lúthien, their betrayal by Celegorm and Curufin, and desire for the Silmaril. Was any of these reasons sufficient? Which could he pass by for the good of the cause?
8. What would Melian answer to his objections? Did she try to?
9. Would she still give the same counsel, had she known of the extra oath of two of the brothers?
So only Mablung and Beleg, “who were unwilling to have no part in these great deeds”, joined the host of Fingon; and this tale actually says naught of them. And with the mustering of Hithlum under Fingon, and the mention of Turgon "to Gondolin also the tidings came, to Turgon, the hidden king", the tally of the Elven allies is complete.
10. Err – what of the Elves of Ossiriand? In earlier versions, they were also present at this fight!
11. And what of Cirdan and his folk? Were they considered insignificant? Did they obey Thingol? After all, Cirdan was a veteran of the very first wars in Beleriand, and he had Fingon's son with him!
However, Maedhros has the assistance of Dwarves and Men: the two houses of the Edain left are arming, many Easterlings have joined his ranks (as mentioned in 'Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin'), and the smithies of Nogrod and Belegost are working around the clock. We will discuss each of these when the part they played in the ensuing battle will be described.
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In earlier versions, the question of Thingol's reluctant assistance to the Noldor went through various stages. In The Book of Lost Tales, Beleg tells Turin he was not present at the Nirnaeth (although he is called a Gnome in Thingol's service!), and in later versions Mablung (or Beleg) actually leads a small company with him – pretty much like Gwindor in this account. Similarly, Melian’s part changed from insisting Thingol should not assist the Fëanorians, to suggesting the token participation of a small company – and here suggesting Thingol should actually submit to the brothers’ demand, and surrender the Silmaril.
12. Seeing that Beleg and Mablung are "unwilling to have no part in these great deeds" – shouldn't any further account of their part in the great deeds be given? At the very least – how did they return to Doriath after the war?
13. Does the evolving of Melian’s counsel reflect a change in Tolkien’s appreciation of her wisdom, or of his understanding which would be the wise course to pursue? More specifically, does Melian’s advocating the surrender of the Silmaril in the post-LotR writings reflect Gandalf and Elrond’s wisdom regarding the Great Ring?
A last point which should be considered, is the high hopes of Hurin, as described in the The Children of Hurin (p. 48):
And if we gain our ends, then the Elven-kings are resolved to restore all the fiefs of Bëor’s house to his heir; and that is you, Morwen daughter of Baragund. Wide lordships should we then wield, and a high inheritance come to our son.
14. I just wonder – what was promised to the Swarthy Men by Maedhros? Did he mean to deal with them as Morgoth eventually did?
15. Also, retrieving the realm of Dorthonion is more easily said than done – after all, by now it is Taur-nu-Fuin, the new dwelling-place of Sauron! Did the elven-kings conveniently ignore that small difficulty? Did they think Sauron was weak, seeing how Lúthien defeated him? Or was the sentence in the previous chapter merely a foreshadowing, and Sauron was really badly hurt by Huan. And needed time to grow (as Hamfast Gamgee suggested two weeks ago)?
”’Farewell, Lady of Dor-Lomin; we ride now with greater hope than ever we have known before...‘
...and the sun glittered on fifty blades as they leaped forth, and the court rang with the battle-cry of the Edain of the North: ’Lacho calad! Drego morn! Flame Light! Flee Night!‘
Then at last Hurin sprang into his saddle, and his golden banner was unfurled, and the trumpets sang again in the morning; and thus Hurin Thalion rode away to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.“
- The Children of Hurin, ch. 1.
For the hopes and their dashing, for valour and defeat, for the fair morning, the baleful nightfall, and the hope that Day will come again – join us in the Reading Room this week.
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Dec 3 2009, 2:48am
Post #2 of 5
(509 views)
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1. That’s one ally less. But wasn’t the policy of ‘secrecy and stealth’ caused by Curufin’s crafty words only last chapter?
Well, yes it was and, from what I see, only a few years ago. Rather corporate of them--*policy is policy*--even if the ink just dried.
2. Wouldn’t the elves of Nargothrond have joined the Westren army of Fingon anyway? Why would Orodreth see the alliance as ‘marching forth at the words of a son of Fëanor’?
The Union of Maedhros--I suppose Orodreth just did not want to be affiliated with that party!
3. What of Celebrimbor? He stayed in Nargothrond after his father was expelled. Do you think he would join Gwindor’s company?
Apparently not.
4. Why can’t Maedhros be a bit more diplomatic, for the good of the cause?
Arg! That *oath*--again.
5. In ‘The Noldor in Beleraind’, Maedhros is said to rebuke Caranthir for his words to Aegnor. Did Maedhros actually agree with Caranthir? Or did he only rebuke him for his words against the sons of Finarfin, while agreeing about Thingol?
I think Maedhros is too bound up in oaths and family loyalty to know what *he* thinks.
6. What do you think of Melian’s counsel? Was it actually wise? If so, why – because it would enable the defeat of Morgoth? Because it would appease the Fëanoreans? Some other reason?
Well, that just leads to other questions. If Thingol had let the Silmaril go--what would the Feanoreans have done with it?--would alot of woe in Doriath been avoided later?
7. Thingol is said to have no less than four reasons to deny the summons: the proud and threatening words of sons of Fëanor, the memory of Beren and Lúthien, their betrayal by Celegorm and Curufin, and desire for the Silmaril. Was any of these reasons sufficient? Which could he pass by for the good of the cause?
Thingol is doomed--not going to turn loose of the Silmaril for any reason. No matter how logical or illogical.
8. What would Melian answer to his objections? Did she try to?
What could she say? She tried to warn him about this before Beren ever left Doriath.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Dec 7 2009, 5:56pm
Post #3 of 5
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Although not a feminist by modern standards, here Tolkien shows his sympathy for the unfair lot of women (in my opinion) with more understanding than most of his peers. Melian's an angel, perhaps a demigoddess, miles above Thingol in wisdom--and it shows. Yet the queen's council has no sway if the king decides otherwise, no matter how foolish, and there is nothing she can do about it.
Tolkien portrays all of his females as equal in intelligence to their male counterparts, more or less, yet often hampered by having their wisdom ignored. (I think in particular of the last queen of Numenor swept away while trying to climb the hill to the open-air temple.) The notable exception would be wise Celeborn, who defers to the still greater wisdom of Galadriel.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 7 2009, 6:39pm
Post #4 of 5
(445 views)
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And none too soon, it seems.
How was your vacation?
"Of what sort are the women of that land?"
- Saeros
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Dec 7 2009, 8:06pm
Post #5 of 5
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Thanks, Sador! I had an interesting vacation, with various ups and downs. We somehow ended up in the Luxor Hotel at the end, in Las Vegas, where the elevators go diagonally. (I didn't gamble. I did see a magic show.) Something about that place reminded me of dwarves. Sort of a sense of undergroundness about it.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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