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sador
Gondolin
Nov 30 2009, 7:40am
Post #1 of 6
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Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Part I - "Truly Hope Springs Eternal"
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It is said that Beren and Lúthien returned to the northern lands of Middle-earth, and dwelt together for a time as living man and woman; and they took up again their mortal form in Doriath. Those that saw them were both glad and fearful; and Lúthien went to Menegroth and healed the winter of Thingol with the touch of her hand. But Melian looked in her eyes and read the doom that was written there, and turned away; for she knew that a parting beyond the end of the world had come between them, and no grief of loss has been heavier than the grief of Melian the Maia in that hour.
1. This is a very optimistic way to start this chapter! Or is it?
2. What was the ‘winter of Thingol’ that Lúthien healed? The brooding silence that fell since Lúthien ‘sang no more’, as described in the previous chapter? How did Lúthien heal it? Or was it something different?
3. Why is Lúthien parted from Melian ‘beyond the end of the world’? I would understand her separation from Thingol – but are Maiar constrained the same way the Eldar are?
4. What do you make of this disconnect between Thingol and Melian – his winter being healed, as contrasted to her grief?
Compare this to Elrond’s parting from Arwen, in ‘Many Partings’ – which is described as a bitter one, which would endure beyond the circles of the world.
5. Wasn’t Elrond’s grief of loss as heavy as Melian’s?
Beren and Lúthien cross the River Gelion and dwell in Ossiriand, “in Tol Galen the green isle, in the midst of Adurant, until all tidings of them ceased”. That country is called Dor Firn-i-Guinar, the Land of the Dead that Live –
And there was born Dior Aranel the beautiful, who was after known as Dior Eluchíl, which is Thingol’s Heir. No mortal man spoke ever again with Beren son of Barahir; and none saw Beren or Lúthien leave the world, or marked where at last their bodies lay. If I remember correctly, Tolkien wrote somewhere that even after Beleriand was drowned, Tol Galen remained as an island.
6. Comments?
A major effect of Beren and Lúthien’s exploit is the renewal of hope in Maedhros’ breast.
In those days Maedhros son of Fëanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable; for the deeds of Beren and Lúthien were sung in many songs throughout Beleriand.
7. Isn’t this a masterful piece of black irony? After all, the Fëanorians were not exactly helpful to Beren and Lúthien – and to make things worse, the paragraph before talked about the birth of Dior!
8. Could the great deed of the two lovers be seen as proof that Morgoth was not unassailable? After all, they haven’t used might of arms, or military alliances – but a deep kind of magic, such as Maedhros surely does not possess?
An important thing to note, is that it is Maedhros who lifts up his heart.
9. Why not Fingon? Because he is hemmed in his land? Or is he still in shock after his father’s death?
10. Is Maedhros trying to reclaim the kingship of the Noldor? Did he renounce his claim to it, or did he only decline to press it for Fingolfin’s sake?
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As far as I remember (I forgot to double-check  ), in some of the sources of The Silmarillion, the story of Beren and Lúthien’s second life is found in other places: at the end of the previous chapter, or at the beginning of what would be The Ruin of Doriath.
11. Isn’t either of those places better? Why do you think Christopher preferred to insert that story at this place?
Perhaps this is the place to mention that in the early drafts of the Númenor story, Gil-galad (the last High King of the Elves in Middle-Earth) was conceived as a descendant of Fëanor.
I hope to discuss the parentage of Gil-galad (and of Celebrimbor) in a later thread; but one relevant question comes to mind:
12. Should we learn from this that the House of Fëanor were not really ‘The Dispossessed’? That they still asserted their claim to be the heirs of King Finwe? Might that have been a reason for Maedhros asserting his leadership?
Actually, Fingon is not a mere follower of his older cousin: “in the west Fingon, ever the friend of Maedhros, took counsel with Himring, and in Hithlum the Noldor and the Men of the house of Hador prepared for war”. But it appears as an alliance of equals at the most, and the strategic plan is for the Fëanorians to bear the burnt of the assault. Clearly, Maedhros is the leader – perhaps because of the old friendship between them?
Let’s consider the relations between the two leaders, as they developed in Tolkien’s imagination: - In the earliest versions, Fëanor was not of the Noldorin royal house, and there was no question of succession (although his sons quarreled bitterly with Turgon after the war, presumably over the leadership). The war was simply an attack of Melko on the exiles and their allies.
- Later, in the Sketch of the Mythology, the first source to mention Maedhros forming an alliance – he was Fingon’s younger cousin (Fëanor being Fingolfin’s younger brother), and the Nirnaeth was still the first great War against Morgoth – the first war was mostly a Fëanorian affair, probably to regain the Silmarils.
- The Quenta Noldorinwa already mentions Beren and Lúthien’s exploit as inspiring Maedhros, and mention that he renewed his friendship with Fingon – implying a previous break, or at least a coolness while Fingolfin was alive.
13. Does Maedhros’ leadership make more sense in the previous versions? Why do you think Tolkien retained it?
14. In all versions, the Fëanorians ended up coming too late to the battlefield. How does this reflect on Maedhros’ leadership? is he to blame? Do you find it ironic?
Next time we will look at the participants of Maedhros’ Grand Alliance.
”’Farewell, Lady of Dor-Lomin; we ride now with greater hope than ever we have known before...‘
...and the sun glittered on fifty blades as they leaped forth, and the court rang with the battle-cry of the Edain of the North: ’Lacho calad! Drego morn! Flame Light! Flee Night!‘
Then at last Hurin sprang into his saddle, and his golden banner was unfurled, and the trumpets sang again in the morning; and thus Hurin Thalion rode away to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.“
- The Children of Hurin, ch. 1.
For the hopes and their dashing, for valour and defeat, for the fair morning, the baleful nightfall, and the hope that Day will come again – join us in the Reading Room this week.
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Dec 2 2009, 2:00am
Post #2 of 6
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1. This is a very optimistic way to start this chapter! Or is it?
Well...I enjoy seeing that bit of *and then, they...* at this point. Which ties into your #11--placement preference.
2. What was the ‘winter of Thingol’ that Lúthien healed? The brooding silence that fell since Lúthien ‘sang no more’, as described in the previous chapter? How did Lúthien heal it? Or was it something different?
Thingol's winter--the feeling of being useless--giving up--no interest in anything? I'm not convinced that his being healed was a good thing though.
5. Wasn’t Elrond’s grief of loss as heavy as Melian’s?
I suppose it could have been. We're told that none was "heavier than" not that no other grief was as heavy as.
14. In all versions, the Fëanorians ended up coming too late to the battlefield. How does this reflect on Maedhros’ leadership? is he to blame? Do you find it ironic?
He was good at plannning but not so good at executing?
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 2 2009, 10:16am
Post #3 of 6
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Thingol's winter--the feeling of being useless--giving up--no interest in anything? I'm not convinced that his being healed was a good thing though.
That should depend on how you estimate his role in the tale of Turin.
Or are you taking the fatalistic approach that it would have been better if the young boy would have died in the Wild? This speculation does appear somewhere in HoME - can't remember where.
How does this reflect on Maedhros’ leadership?
He was good at plannning but not so good at executing? Perhaps. But note that it was the second time he had let Fingon down (the first was at Losgar, when he couldn't prevent the burning of the ships), while Fingon had saved him from Thangorodrim.
”’Farewell, Lady of Dor-Lomin; we ride now with greater hope than ever we have known before...‘
...and the sun glittered on fifty blades as they leaped forth, and the court rang with the battle-cry of the Edain of the North: ’Lacho calad! Drego morn! Flame Light! Flee Night!‘
Then at last Hurin sprang into his saddle, and his golden banner was unfurled, and the trumpets sang again in the morning; and thus Hurin Thalion rode away to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.“
- The Children of Hurin, ch. 1.
For the hopes and their dashing, for valour and defeat, for the fair morning, the baleful nightfall, and the hope that Day will come again – join us in the Reading Room this week.
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Dec 3 2009, 2:11am
Post #4 of 6
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comments on your answers to my comments...
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Actually, I wasn't thinking of Turin at all! I was thinking of Thingol's focus (or re focus) on *that jewel* --which is described a few paragraphs after this. It seemed to have been sleeping, during his winter, and roused when he was *healed*.
On Maedhros--ok, maybe not so good at planning either. Although with regards to the ship burning incident--I think that would have taken a *hero* to step up against Feanor. So, I will settle for this--Maedhros seemed to have good intentions but little skill in making things happen. Not so strong in the qualities one desires in a leader.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 3 2009, 11:42pm
Post #5 of 6
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The Tragedy of Maedhros, Prince of Hithlum
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I'm starting to get myself pieced together enough to pay attention to this again, and I thought I would come to this:
Maedhros is one of the more interesting and truly tragic characters in the Sil. He really is an anti-hero; at heart, Maedhros is a good guy, and wants to be a good guy, but is beholden to the oath that he foolishly took with his father and cannot bring himself to recant it, despite that it leads him to ruin and, ultimately, evil.
As for what Maedhros is thinking when he organizes the army to go to Nirnaeth Anoediad, there have been several ideas in the reading room. One of them, my favorites, is that Maedhros knows that Thingol now possesses a Silmaril, and he and his brothers are under oath to try to take it from him. Maedhros, wanting to fight on the side of justice as long as he possibly can, organizes this assault against Morgoth not perhaps because he seriously believes he will likely win, but because he does not want some of his less scrupulous brothers from assaulting Thingol instead, him being an easier target.
As for his chances of success, Maedhros isn't as hopeless as you might think. He is the eldest son of Fëanor, supposedly the greatest in arts and crafts of Elven kindred who has ever lived. Perhaps Lúthien does outshine him in resourcefulness and wisdom, but Maedhros certainly possesses his share of knowledge and magic as well. And, as we have seen and will see, magic has numerous military applications in Middle Earth; in LotR the Nine after all use their magical powers for military purposes repeatedly, and to devastating effect. Maedhros is right in thinking that a vast army of the Elven peoples, fortified by Elven magic that kindles their hearts to courage, terrifies their enemies, and makes their very armor and weapons, to quote a phrase from this very chapter, "worth the ransom of any king of Men".
But we know it's futile, and so do the Elves, I think: they are up against Morgoth, who was formerly Melkor, a Vala, one of the fifteen divine beings who sang the Music that created the world, and indeed, the greatest of the fifteen. Melkor has spent much of His wisdom and so has become mere Morgoth, but nonetheless the depth of knowledge of the very fabric of reality, and thus magic, at his command far exceeds anything that any Elf, even Lúthien, could muster. Lúthien succeeded only because she was resourceful, and graced, but even she could not hold off Morgoth's vast power for anything more than a very temporary victory; she had to flee, after all. Whatever deep knowledge and magic the Noldor can muster, Morgoth will trump it easily.
Still, I can see Maedhros deciding to march on Angband anyway. At least he's still fighting evil, and not marching on Doriath, as some of his brothers would do instead.
The paleobotanist is back!
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 6 2009, 7:48am
Post #6 of 6
(525 views)
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One of them, my favorites, is that Maedhros knows that Thingol now possesses a Silmaril, and he and his brothers are under oath to try to take it from him. Maedhros, wanting to fight on the side of justice as long as he possibly can, organizes this assault against Morgoth not perhaps because he seriously believes he will likely win, but because he does not want some of his less scrupulous brothers from assaulting Thingol instead, him being an easier target.
I really like it!
As for his chances of success, Maedhros isn't as hopeless as you might think. He is the eldest son of Fëanor, supposedly the greatest in arts and crafts of Elven kindred who has ever lived. Perhaps Lúthien does outshine him in resourcefulness and wisdom, but Maedhros certainly possesses his share of knowledge and magic as well. And, as we have seen and will see, magic has numerous military applications in Middle Earth; in LotR the Nine after all use their magical powers for military purposes repeatedly, and to devastating effect.
But do Elves? The magic iron-cleaving knife Beren used was made by Telchar, a Nogrod dwarf; and all the magic we know of elven-blades is that they shine when creatures of Morogth are near - except for the Eol-made blades, which Melian called Evil.
I am thinking also of Elrond's words to Boromir, regarding the Three having no military power (save for preseverance and understanding, but no aggressive magic). Perhaps the Elves do not have such Magic? Or was it only the repentant Celebrimbor who renounced it?
their very armor and weapons, to quote a phrase from this very chapter, "worth the ransom of any king of Men". Yes. I did not point this line out in the releavant thread, but I really do not like it. Just how did the Gondolin elves become so rich? What is the point of this magnificence - does the richness make their weapons more potent?
It is somewhat like Gandalf's estimating a small mithril coat worth more than all of the Shire - apparantly, anything which immortals have ever touched becomes infinitely more precious. Sounds hype to me.
But we know it's futile, and so do the Elves, I think
Fëanor did at the hour of his death. I wonder whether he passed this knowledge to his sons; apparantly not.
But perhaps Maedhros had a similar epiphany, as he was hanging by his hand over Thangorodrim?
I would like to note that all it is said is that Morogth is not "unassailbale", not "invincible" - it seems that Maedhros is aware of the futility of his efforts.
At least he's still fighting evil, and not marching on Doriath, as some of his brothers would do instead. And eventually did.
”’Farewell, Lady of Dor-Lomin; we ride now with greater hope than ever we have known before...‘
...and the sun glittered on fifty blades as they leaped forth, and the court rang with the battle-cry of the Edain of the North: ’Lacho calad! Drego morn! Flame Light! Flee Night!‘
Then at last Hurin sprang into his saddle, and his golden banner was unfurled, and the trumpets sang again in the morning; and thus Hurin Thalion rode away to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.“
- The Children of Hurin, ch. 1.
For the hopes and their dashing, for valour and defeat, for the fair morning, the baleful nightfall, and the hope that Day will come again – join us in the Reading Room this week.
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