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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 24 2009, 5:33am
Post #1 of 3
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Beren and Lúthien part II: 1. C&C and their political plays
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B&L are free, now, and wander the forests of the north, while Huan goes back to his master Celegorm and the inhabitants of Nargothrond return from the dungeons of Sauron. I have to wonder what Celegorm thought about Huan now, especially considering what he's going to try to do with his bow very soon!
1. Why didn't Celegorm try to kill Huan?
It's really pretty apparent here just what Celegorm and Curufin were trying to do, and what they were motivated by: power politics. They've taken over Nargothrond. They realized that Lúthien was an important player in this whole situation, for several reasons: first, she's the princess of Doriath, the one kingdom that the Sons of Fëanor really can't get into, and second, Lúthien is powerful in the Arts, perhaps as powerful as Fëanor their father, and far more resourceful. If they could control her, she would be the greatest boon to their own power they could ever wish for, and if they can't control her, then she's almost as serious a threat as Morgoth!
Lúthien does this right now: when the people of the dungeons of Sauron return, the hearts of the people in Nargothrond are "released from [Celegorm and Curufin's] dominion", and choose Finrod's kin Orodreth as their new king. C&C ride away in anger.
2. Well, this is politics! Why do C&C want to take over Nargothrond in the first place? Isn't their oath to retake the Silmarils? Are they trying to amass an army of loyal thralls to use as longbow fodder against Morgoth? Or have they, if only for the moment, forgotten their Oath entirely?
3. The choice of words here suggests that C&C held the Nargothrondrim under a magical enchantment, which Lúthien's refugees dispelled. Just how much magic is being thrown around here? How much bearing does this have on what the evil brothers are going to do next?
4. Who, in Middle Earth, realizes Lúthien for the threat that she is? How long have they known this? Who is still underestimating her?
Meanwhile, B&L are wandering through the wilderness. We aren't told how long they wandered we are not told, although conceivably it could be some time. Now, seriously, a man and a woman, travelling together, in love... 5. Aren't they married yet? Lúthien points out that Beren has a choice to make with two options: to wander forever, or to continue the quest Thingol gave him. Whichever, Lúthien will go with him, and their fates will be the same. Sounds like a statement a wife would make to me!
6. Which of these would Lúthien have preferred? Certainly she realized the gravity of the Silmarils - the sacred jewels that contained the Light of Varda, Goddess of Hope, and that so long as Melkor held all three of them not even the Valar could defeat Him?
7. Lúthien certainly isn't the sort of woman who is content to be a housewife - more dramatically perhaps than any other woman in Arda, Éowyn and Galadriel notwithstanding. Just how exceptional is her behavior in Middle Earth? How many Elven adventurers, for example, enjoyed the companionship of their wives when they went off to war? If Lúthien really is exceptional, is she a model that not enough women emulate, an aberration to be avoided, or a special case based on who she is?
B&L aren't able to have their conversation for long: C&C find them at this very moment. They aren't very happy: Lú has just caused them to be deposed as kings of Nargothrond, and here she is with Beren. Leaving the question of Beren's race aside, just think of the jealousy they must be feeling! Quite an action scene follows: Curufin snatches up Lú in his saddle, Celegorm tries to ride down Beren, but Beren does some incredible acrobatics and grabs onto Celegorm's horse, jumps to Curufin's horse, pulls Curufin off and begins to strangle him. Lú is thrown from the saddle and "lay upon the grass". Celegorm tries to spear Beren, but suddenly Huan forsakes Celegorm and switches sides, keeping Celegorm at bay. Lúthien gets up and prevents Beren from killing Curufin, but Beren does strip him of everything he has, including the knife Angrist, and his horse, suggesting that Curufin mistreats it. Celegorm, meanwhile, tries to shoot Lúthien with his bow, of which Huan catches the first arrow, and Beren takes the second in his chest trying to defend Lú. Huan chases the brothers and drives them off, then comes back with an herb Lú uses to heal Beren.
8. Again, I'm curious as to what the motives are here. The brothers may lust for power, revenge, and, well, lust for sex. Which of these is driving their anger most here?
9. Celegorm is really brassy trying to kill Lúthien here. She just prevented Beren from killing his brother! Is he in a mindless rage, trying to kill the woman Beren loves, or is he instead still thinking politics, and trying to assassinate a rival?
10. Huan catches one arrow, Beren another, both aimed at Lúthien. I would think that if Celegorm were far enough away that doing this would be possible, Lúthien herself would be agile enough to dodge the darts. Why doesn't she? Or maybe she would, but she doesn't get the chance to show off her agility because somebody keeps the arrows from getting near her!
Beren abandons Lúthien in the grass, having decided that he's going to Hell to try to get the cursed Silmaril (double entande intentional). When will he ever learn? Some singing happens, but page of exposition short, it doesn't take Lúthien long to catch up to him, with Huan's help. Lúthien remarks to Beren that she's going to die anyway if he leaves her (although she doesn't say why), and she's not going to let him go alone. She's quite prepared to die with him. Well, as for the last question, the answer is now. This is when Lú creates the magical disguises for herself and Beren: Lú turns into a bat-like beast, Beren a werewolf.
11. So why would Lú have died if she had let Beren get away from her? I somehow doubt that the Brothers C. would have gotten her. Just grief?
12. Lú is quite willing to die, though. If you asked her, what would her guess be at their chances of success?
13. This kind of desperate journey into Hell to face the Devil on His throne is almost what Frodo and Sam will do many thousands of years hence. Lú is a bit more capable as a magician than Sam, and Beren more a warrior, but considering what they are up against, they're similarly desperate. Comments? What would you give to be able to read an LotR-length novel based on the adventures of B&L?
14. Lúthien is without question my favorite character in all of Tolkien, because she does things like this: she obviously is an extremely intelligent, capable person, and yet she is also amazingly brave, willing to face impossible odds realizing fully the near-certainty that she will fail utterly. Is there another character anywhere in Tolkien as simply heroic as she? How does the fact that she is a woman, against whom almost (but not absolutely) every other heroic character in Tolkien is male, factor into this?
15. Lúthien isn't thinking of herself as immortal; she clearly expects to die here. There was that comment earlier that Finrod was walking with his father in Valinor. Is that poetic licence, foreshadowing that Lúthien will leave the world later as a mortal, or is she just thinking in a more corporeal, existential, fashion, then the poet who mentioned Finrod?
The paleobotanist is back!
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sador
Gondolin
Nov 24 2009, 10:36am
Post #2 of 3
(401 views)
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1. Why didn't Celegorm try to kill Huan?
Huan belongs to Orome. You don't just kill a gift fron a Vala!
2. Well, this is politics! Why do C&C want to take over Nargothrond in the first place? Isn't their oath to retake the Silmarils? Are they trying to amass an army of loyal thralls to use as longbow fodder against Morgoth? Or have they, if only for the moment, forgotten their Oath entirely?
No, but don't forget that the house of Feanor are called "the Dispossessed" ever since Maedhros renounced the High Kingship for Fingolfin. And now, Fingolfin is dead - and Fingon is the High King, from his puny lordship in Hithlum!
3. The choice of words here suggests that C&C held the Nargothrondrim under a magical enchantment, which Lúthien's refugees dispelled. Just how much magic is being thrown around here? How much bearing does this have on what the evil brothers are going to do next?
I don't think so; it's just the magic of powerful words. Remember Saruman?
4. Who, in Middle Earth, realizes Lúthien for the threat that she is? How long have they known this? Who is still underestimating her? Nobody, ever.
5. Aren't they married yet?
No.
6. Which of these would Lúthien have preferred? Certainly she realized the gravity of the Silmarils - the sacred jewels that contained the Light of Varda, Goddess of Hope, and that so long as Melkor held all three of them not even the Valar could defeat Him?
The romantic in her would prefer living as a vagabond with the Man she loved. The princess would prefer fulfilling the oath.
7. Lúthien certainly isn't the sort of woman who is content to be a housewife - more dramatically perhaps than any other woman in Arda, Éowyn and Galadriel notwithstanding. Just how exceptional is her behavior in Middle Earth? How many Elven adventurers, for example, enjoyed the companionship of their wives when they went off to war? If Lúthien really is exceptional, is she a model that not enough women emulate, an aberration to be avoided, or a special case based on who she is?
It appears she is a special case.
8. Again, I'm curious as to what the motives are here. The brothers may lust for power, revenge, and, well, lust for sex. Which of these is driving their anger most here?
"All of them at once," said Bilbo.
9. Celegorm is really brassy trying to kill Lúthien here. She just prevented Beren from killing his brother! Is he in a mindless rage, trying to kill the woman Beren loves, or is he instead still thinking politics, and trying to assassinate a rival?
Revengeful, especially for the humiliation.
10. Huan catches one arrow, Beren another, both aimed at Lúthien. I would think that if Celegorm were far enough away that doing this would be possible, Lúthien herself would be agile enough to dodge the darts. Why doesn't she? Or maybe she would, but she doesn't get the chance to show off her agility because somebody keeps the arrows from getting near her!
Is she in shock?
When will he ever learn?
One day we'll find the drafts in which Tolkien rewrote this tale in the 1950s - and then we'll know if Beren did.
Well, as for the last question, the answer is now.
Only because he was spoken to by a dog.
11. So why would Lú have died if she had let Beren get away from her? I somehow doubt that the Brothers C. would have gotten her. Just grief?
Probably.
12. Lú is quite willing to die, though. If you asked her, what would her guess be at their chances of success?
Do women in love think in chances?
13. This kind of desperate journey into Hell to face the Devil on His throne is almost what Frodo and Sam will do many thousands of years hence. Lú is a bit more capable as a magician than Sam, and Beren more a warrior, but considering what they are up against, they're similarly desperate. Comments?
Are you sure? Beren was neither conspirator nor jester - Sam was clearly better qualified than him! 
What would you give to be able to read an LotR-length novel based on the adventures of B&L?
Written by whom?
14. Lúthien is without question my favorite character in all of Tolkien, because she does things like this: she obviously is an extremely intelligent, capable person, and yet she is also amazingly brave, willing to face impossible odds realizing fully the near-certainty that she will fail utterly. Is there another character anywhere in Tolkien as simply heroic as she? How does the fact that she is a woman, against whom almost (but not absolutely) every other heroic character in Tolkien is male, factor into this?
Into what? Into your preferences?
(Not being nasty; simply not understanding)
15. Lúthien isn't thinking of herself as immortal; she clearly expects to die here. There was that comment earlier that Finrod was walking with his father in Valinor. Is that poetic licence, foreshadowing that Lúthien will leave the world later as a mortal, or is she just thinking in a more corporeal, existential, fashion, then the poet who mentioned Finrod?
I would say she expects to die; especially if seperated for ever from Beren. Think Miriel.
"Forget for a while the dreadful doom of life" - Luthien.
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Nov 25 2009, 9:26pm
Post #3 of 3
(396 views)
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2. Well, this is politics! Why do C&C want to take over Nargothrond in the first place? Isn't their oath to retake the Silmarils? Are they trying to amass an army of loyal thralls to use as longbow fodder against Morgoth? Or have they, if only for the moment, forgotten their Oath entirely?
I think an *answer* this the first question (and possibly the others as well) as given in the first past of this chapter..."And they did not purpose to seek the Silmarils by craft or war, or suffer any others to do so, until they had all the might of the Elf-kingdoms under their hands."
3. The choice of words here suggests that C&C held the Nargothrondrim under a magical enchantment, which Lúthien's refugees dispelled. Just how much magic is being thrown around here? How much bearing does this have on what the evil brothers are going to do next?
I see this more as C and C using fear and doubt (scare tactics) to influence the folk of Nargothrondrim--oh, you don't want to get involved in *that* situation!--to get people to *turn on* their leader.
(You know, I just this instance caught that Celebrimor stayed behind!)
5. Aren't they married yet?
I guess not but I do believe they are committed!
8. Again, I'm curious as to what the motives are here. The brothers may lust for power, revenge, and, well, lust for sex. Which of these is driving their anger most here?
I'm going with revenge--at least for Celegorn. Curufin, with that smile upon his exit, I am not sure about at all.
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