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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Nov 21 2009, 9:55am
Post #1 of 5
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Chapter 19 part one - Of Beren and Luthien 4
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Beren goes forth from Doriath unhindered but without any aid. Not really knowing what to do he goes to seek out the only ally he might have, Finrod of Nargothrond. By showing the guards the Ring of Barahir, he gains an audience with Finrod. There he finds that Finrod at least is sympathetic to his cause. Unlike Celegorm and Curufin that are dwelling in his halls.
What no gifts of Lembas, counsel or magic cloaks? Stingy old Thingol!
See, it was a bit of bravado which Beren was saying to Thingol earlier!
King Felegund speaks before his people, but Celegorm and Curufin poison most of his peoples hearts against him and Finrod himself is usurped. Only 12 of his people remain faithful to him. They go forth from Nargothrond, disguised by Orcs to hide themselves from Sauron.
One point about Oaths. Interesting that after all the fuss about the Feanorian Oath, here Finrod just says almost with a wave of his hand, 'Your Oaths of fealty to me you can break!' so how comes the people of Nargothrond don't damn themselves? Or are there different interepritations of Oaths. Or different types of Oaths.?
But Sauron is aware of them and as they don't report their deeds as Orcs should he brings them to his Isle. When the text says they are disguised as Orcs, has Finrod used the magic of the Noldor to create an illusion, or has he just given them a cloak, some false teeth and said, 'make sure you walk with a bond, chaps?'
Thoughts?
(This post was edited by Hamfast Gamgee on Nov 21 2009, 9:56am)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Nov 21 2009, 8:23pm
Post #2 of 5
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The people of Nargothrond do damn themselves by not keeping their oaths.
As for the orc disguises, we know that Luthien took the skins of werewolf and vampire bat and turned them into magic cloaks that make the wearer identical to the original skin-owner in every outward regard--even to the point of enabling Luthien to fly. So though I shudder to suggest it, the evidence points towards skinning the orcs from which they seized the uniforms, and Finrod casting a spell on these skins.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Nov 22 2009, 5:33am
Post #3 of 5
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I'm not really convinced that Finrod was sympathetic to Beren's cause here--seems as if he is *simply* bound by his oath "of abiding friendship and aid in every need...". Talk about bad timing....one heck of a mess! Now, of all times--two of Feanor's oath-bound sons have to be in the vicinity and get to have some say-so in this matter. On top of that...Thingol is Finrod's great uncle (I think). What a predicament for Finrod! 
And what is that 'great power' that will be moved from slumber? Greed? Lust? Pride?
The future of these Elves of Nargothrond does seem to be pretty bleak---"...forgetting the bonds of kinship." What are we being told here--that they took the lives of other Elves as they "pursued all strangers"? Saddens me to read that these folk so (apparently) easily shunned their leader at the words of Curufin and Celegorm. Devious--those two are!
"...by the arts of Felagund..."! That's interesting! ...and coming back from doing a search using those terms...I found ...not much in the way of *answers* just more speculation! I suppose Dreamdeer's comments are a possible explaination...kind of *icky* though.  Or maybe this *art* is magic--although I don't recall reading of this ability prior to this. Or maybe they just donned some of the beaked-helmet things, really.
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sador
Gondolin
Nov 22 2009, 8:17am
Post #4 of 5
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What no gifts of Lembas, counsel or magic cloaks? Stingy old Thingol!
Actually, stingy old Melian.
It was she who later gave Beleg lembas, and Galadriel to the fellowship - lembas was elf-queen's province!
Well, Thingol could have given counsel - and with his experience at fighting Morgoth over the last 460 years, it would be really useful...
See, it was a bit of bravado which Beren was saying to Thingol earlier!
Of course. Saucy young Beren!
'Your Oaths of fealty to me you can break!' so how comes the people of Nargothrond don't damn themselves?
Aren't they?
But anyway, he is not contradicting the people's Oaths (which we have never heard of before) with that of the sons of Feanor, but rather to his own to Barahir.
And that Oath was forseen by Finrod himself, in his words to Galadriel (in 'Of the Noldor in Beleriand'); it is possible that when Beren came, producing his father's Ring and asking for help in this rash piece of futiulity, Finrod heard the footsteps of his Doom overtaking him.
He possibly did not even do his utmost to sway his people.
Or are there different interepritations of Oaths. Or different types of Oaths.?
Answered above.
When the text says they are disguised as Orcs, has Finrod used the magic of the Noldor to create an illusion, or has he just given them a cloak, some false teeth and said, 'make sure you walk with a bond, chaps?'
He changed their own faces and forms, so I guess there was some mighty wizardry involved.
Thoughts?
1) Have you read The Lay of Leithan (HoME III)? I like the description of the conversation between Sauron and Felagund.
Apparantly Christopher Tolkien did, too - as he lifted the competition of Songs of Power from it.
2) Inspired by your suggestion of Finrod's mode of disguise:
Blonde waitresses take their trays
They spin around and they cross the floor
They've got the moves (oh whey oh)
You drop your drink then they bring you more
All the school kids so sick of books
They like the punk and the metal band
When the buzzer rings (oh whey oh)
They're walking like an Egyptian
All the kids in the marketplace say
Ay oh whey oh, ay oh whey oh
Walk like an Egyptian
I wonder what blonde waitresses Sauron employed. 
"I hear now that thou wouldst barter with me. What is thy price?" - Sauron.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 22 2009, 7:19pm
Post #5 of 5
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The Sons of Fëanor are mighty sorcerers
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My personal interpretation of the damnation - and soon to be salvation - of Nargothrod has a magical explanation. Celegorm and Curufin are using magic to charm the people of Nargothrond to their will, probably using powers that their father and siblings learned (remember: the Three Rings were made by their nephew, Celebrimbor). Lúthien dispels that by her heroic defeat of Sauron at Minas Tirith, which in turn enables the refugees to return with Lúthien's own grace and depose C&C.
Felagund I think understands this, although not to the level that Lú does.
The paleobotanist is back!
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