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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Nov 20 2009, 12:43am
Post #1 of 24
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Chapter 19 Part One Of Beren and Luthien 3
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So, now we come to the greatest love story of the ages. Some might have said that that is Romeo and Juillet, but they are of course, wrong, this is! Beren comes into Doriath worn with care and finds Luthien, the beautiful daughter of Melian and Thingol. He sees her and falls in love as she sings and dances. But Beren calls her Tinuviel that signifies NIghtingale, daughter of twilight in Grey-Elven tongue.
So, Beren could speak Elven could he at least partly. That makes him a bit more cultural than an unhoused outlaw in the country!
Anyway Beren recovers from his wounds in the Forest and they fall in love and walk amongst the forest. Had he not come to Doriath, but had just found more wilderness, would Beren have died then without aid?
Also, did they do more besids just walk? 
But it turned out that Daeron the ministrel was also in love with Luthien. He espies them together and betrays them to Thingol. What a sneak! Still it says that Daeron is one of the most mighty ministrels in the World. Even more so than Luthien's singing? A little speculation, but maybe Luthien was singing one of his numbers when Beren espied her. That would annoy Daeron a little one would have thought.
Luthien brings Beren to her father's throne. No-one speaks for various reasons so Luthien introduces Beren but her Thingol is scornful. This might have been mentioned before, but was there an althernative to Thingol been so undiplomatic? Even if, at the time he was a bit suspicious of Beren he did not necessarily have to treat Beren as a foe.
Until of course, Beren tells Thingol about his love for his daughter. Ah. Now in the text it says that it seems that words were put into his mouth. By whom? Melian? What would have been her purpose for doing this? Or maybe by some higher power?
Thingol and Beren have words but Beren fear leaves him and he becomes proud at least. Melian counsels Thingol to be weary in his dealings with Beren. Just how much does Melian know here and what is her game exactly? Does she just want a good pairing for her daughter? Anyway she doesn't seem to expect Thingol's reply.
Which is to tell Beren that he will only consent to Beren's marriage of his daughter if he can take a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. Well. That is possibly the worst thing Thingol could have said. For if Beren did succeed, that would of course bring down the Oath of Feanor upon Doriath. But obviously Thingol didn't expect Beren to succeed.
In a way, was this sort of thing prophesied by Feanor when he declared that no other Elf could claim the Silmarils long ago, did he think that some other might take it into their heads to take one of them from Morgoth?
Anyway, Beren laughs and says that he can perform this task a little bit of brinkmanship as we shall see later and leaves Doriath upon which a shadow falls as Luthien stops singing.
(This post was edited by Hamfast Gamgee on Nov 20 2009, 12:44am)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Nov 20 2009, 1:55am
Post #2 of 24
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So, now we come to the greatest love story of the ages. Some might have said that that is Romeo and Juillet, but they are of course, wrong, this is! Beren comes into Doriath worn with care and finds Luthien, the beautiful daughter of Melian and Thingol. He sees her and falls in love as she sings and dances. But Beren calls her Tinuviel that signifies NIghtingale, daughter of twilight in Grey-Elven tongue.
And a beautiful account of a man phasing from horrible enchantments to a beautiful if hopeless-seeming one, into despair and back out again to hope, and finally to wholeness and healing!
So, Beren could speak Elven could he at least partly. That makes him a bit more cultural than an unhoused outlaw in the country!
So it would seem, to us. But to Thingol he might simply have seemed to be Finrod's well-trained animal.
Anyway Beren recovers from his wounds in the Forest and they fall in love and walk amongst the forest. Had he not come to Doriath, but had just found more wilderness, would Beren have died then without aid?
Quite probably. He'd been through about as much as a human body could stand without succor.
Also, did they do more besids just walk?
Ah, now you're getting into Yaqui slang! When we say a couple is now walking together, we mean "walking" about as much as you might mean "sleeping".
But I don't think Tolkien intended Yaqui slang here, as he probably didn't know of it anyway. They probably did a lot of smooching, and snuggling, and all manner of tiptoe-on-the-edge things, but Beren would be too gentlemanly to cross the line, and Luthien too innocent. Or maybe Beren's innocent, too; it's not like he's had much of a chance for worldly experience with members of the opposite sex.
But it turned out that Daeron the ministrel was also in love with Luthien. He espies them together and betrays them to Thingol. What a sneak! Still it says that Daeron is one of the most mighty ministrels in the World. Even more so than Luthien's singing? A little speculation, but maybe Luthien was singing one of his numbers when Beren espied her. That would annoy Daeron a little one would have thought.
"One of" the best doesn't make him the best, as in above all others. Luthien had him and every other singer outmatched--could Daeron have sung Mandos into giving up the dead? If he could, surely he would have sung a song that would have won Luthien's heart! But to her he was a choir-buddy, nothing more.
Luthien brings Beren to her father's throne. No-one speaks for various reasons so Luthien introduces Beren but her Thingol is scornful. This might have been mentioned before, but was there an althernative to Thingol been so undiplomatic? Even if, at the time he was a bit suspicious of Beren he did not necessarily have to treat Beren as a foe.
I think he considers Beren more of an animal, and is outraged that Luthien--daughter of a maia and his illustrious self--wants to marry a dog (however faithful a hunting-hound Beren might have been to Finrod.) Of course Thingol's being a hypocrite, since he started this whole business of trans-species marriage and taking a wife higher up on the food chain, but then fathers do that when their daughters aim to marry.
Until of course, Beren tells Thingol about his love for his daughter. Ah. Now in the text it says that it seems that words were put into his mouth. By whom? Melian? What would have been her purpose for doing this? Or maybe by some higher power?
The words, perhaps, but not the intent behind them--that was all his own. As to who did this, I'd say a higher power that Melian was wise enough to see at work. Melian's only motive was not to buck the will of Illuvatar, whatever that might turn out to be, and however strange it might seem.
Thingol and Beren have words but Beren fear leaves him and he becomes proud at least. Melian counsels Thingol to be weary in his dealings with Beren. Just how much does Melian know here and what is her game exactly? Does she just want a good pairing for her daughter? Anyway she doesn't seem to expect Thingol's reply.
Melian knows that the thing she has foreseen has come true--that someone got through her defenses, by a "high doom"--that in other words Illuvatar willed it. Her game is that she absolutely does not want to cross Illuvatar in anything. And she knows that high dooms tend to smash through the status quo like a cannonball, and that breaking into Doriath is only the beginning. She cautions Thingol to be wary because in moments like this everybody's fate even in the remote vicinity of a High Doom quivers in the balance: extreme things might happen now, for good or ill. She feels the charge, electric, in the atmosphere; everything in her maia nature cries out about it. Thingol, of course, blunders on like it's just another day at court. And so interweaves his doom with those fated for a bad end.
Which is to tell Beren that he will only consent to Beren's marriage of his daughter if he can take a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. Well. That is possibly the worst thing Thingol could have said. For if Beren did succeed, that would of course bring down the Oath of Feanor upon Doriath. But obviously Thingol didn't expect Beren to succeed.
I think the malevolent intention in his heart caused him to stumble in that potential-charged moment. Because he obviously wanted to think of some task that would cause Beren's death. And so that malice lured him into the curse, and so the thought popped into his head, "Why not send Beren after a Silmaril?"
In a way, was this sort of thing prophesied by Feanor when he declared that no other Elf could claim the Silmarils long ago, did he think that some other might take it into their heads to take one of them from Morgoth?
I think so. Morgoth had already stung him into insecurity about the Silmarils, and a fear that others coveted them, before he lost them.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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sador
Gondolin
Nov 20 2009, 9:27am
Post #3 of 24
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So, Beren could speak Elven could he at least partly. That makes him a bit more cultural than an unhoused outlaw in the country!
Yeah, sure; all of the Three Houses of the Edain could.
Had he not come to Doriath, but had just found more wilderness, would Beren have died then without aid?
Sooner or later he would; that's the lot of mortal Men.
Also, did they do more besids just walk?
I didn't say that; he did.
Still it says that Daeron is one of the most mighty ministrels in the World. Even more so than Luthien's singing?
Yes. Luthien was renowned as a dancer.
A little speculation, but maybe Luthien was singing one of his numbers when Beren espied her. That would annoy Daeron a little one would have thought.
Why do you think she was singing? It doesn't say so in my book; and when Strider sings to the hobbits of Luthien, he describes her 'dancing to a pipe unseen' - and according to the early versions, the piper was indeed Daeron.
But on the other hand, Beren wouldn't have called her 'Nightengale' if she didn't sing. Hmmm.
This might have been mentioned before, but was there an althernative to Thingol been so undiplomatic? Even if, at the time he was a bit suspicious of Beren he did not necessarily have to treat Beren as a foe.
Kings don't have to be diplomatic; and to a mortal! Contempt is better than he deserves.
Now in the text it says that it seems that words were put into his mouth. By whom? Melian? What would have been her purpose for doing this?
No! He looks into her face and sees beyond her.
Or maybe by some higher power?
Yep. That's the Doom greater than Melian's power which led him thither.
Just how much does Melian know here and what is her game exactly?
Probably a shadow falls on her heart.
Does she just want a good pairing for her daughter?
That's not going to be Beren. Consider the poignant portrayal of her grief at the beginning of the next chapter.
Anyway she doesn't seem to expect Thingol's reply.
Whose face did Thingol look into?
But obviously Thingol didn't expect Beren to succeed.
No, he expected him to slink away like a thief caught red-handed.
In a way, was this sort of thing prophesied by Feanor when he declared that no other Elf could claim the Silmarils long ago, did he think that some other might take it into their heads to take one of them from Morgoth?
When did he declare it? He swore to pursue with vengeance any who tried.
Actually, Thingol wore the Silmaril painlessly for some fourty years, while Maedhros and Maglor were burned by theirs.
Anyway, Beren laughs and says that he can perform this task a little bit of brinkmanship as we shall see later and leaves Doriath upon which a shadow falls as Luthien stops singing.
You spoke truly in your first sentence - nothing similar ever happened to the Capulets.
"I hear now that thou wouldst barter with me. What is thy price?" - Sauron.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 20 2009, 2:31pm
Post #4 of 24
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Lú has had her own share of adventures
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Anyway Beren recovers from his wounds in the Forest and they fall in love and walk amongst the forest. Had he not come to Doriath, but had just found more wilderness, would Beren have died then without aid?
Maybe - maybe not. Even as the semi-Elf-like-creature as he was, he had limits, and would have gotten caught eventually.
Also, did they do more besids just walk?
Actually, I think so, too. I agree with LACE that elves could marry whomever they wanted, whenever they wanted, with sex being the union - and I think they got married here. Why did she marry him? Well, I think Lú herself has been adventuring up to this point as well, and probably has heard loads about Beren, even if she never met the man until now. And, I suspect that they actually spent a lot of time together, at least a year. I still see the Edain as having very long, even elf-like, lifespans.
Still it says that Daeron is one of the most mighty ministrels in the World. Even more so than Luthien's singing?
Considering what kind of heroics Lúthien will shortly pull off, no - but Daeron is still very good.
A little speculation, but maybe Luthien was singing one of his numbers when Beren espied her. That would annoy Daeron a little one would have thought.
More likely she was singing something more glorious still, something about the Valar.
This might have been mentioned before, but was there an althernative to Thingol been so undiplomatic? Even if, at the time he was a bit suspicious of Beren he did not necessarily have to treat Beren as a foe.
Everything Thingol does seems to be misguided or evil henceforth. How did he manage to conceive Lú in the first place?
Now in the text it says that it seems that words were put into his mouth. By whom? Melian? What would have been her purpose for doing this?
Call it destiny.
Just how much does Melian know here and what is her game exactly?
This is Melian, not some ignorant floozy!
Does she just want a good pairing for her daughter?
That she has - but I'm not sure. I have my own thoughts about this scene (really, Beren must get the Silmaril, and not just for Lú or Thingol).
In a way, was this sort of thing prophesied by Feanor when he declared that no other Elf could claim the Silmarils long ago, did he think that some other might take it into their heads to take one of them from Morgoth?
Well, he was when he said that jealous enough that I'm sure it crossed his mind. However, he had no idea how the prophecy would work.
The paleobotanist is back!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Nov 20 2009, 9:05pm
Post #5 of 24
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Squire, whom you refer to, makes an excellent case for a passionate meeting involving more than smooches (especially when their embrace doesn't break off until dawn) and I long held such opinion, myself, except for one problem. "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar" states that elves can tell by looking at each other who's sleeping with who (or walking with whom, if you prefer) and so they can't be deceived into thinking someone's available when they're not. So if Thingol saw that Luthien had given her virginity to Beren, he'd know that he could do nothing about it, Luthie would have become visibly ineligible for any elf at that point, and he might as well accept reality.
(I wonder what it looks like, to elven eyes, when one of their number has become, shall we say, attached?)
Instead, he still considered it possible to break up the couple before it reached the point of no return. So the two must have stopped short of crossing the line.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Nov 20 2009, 9:06pm)
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 21 2009, 11:10am
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I long held such opinion, myself...
I too think squire made some very persuasive points in the post sador links too. But in my case, I've just had a rethink based on a closer reading of the chapter we're on - specifically the introductory setting of the scene: "There came a time near dawn on the eve of spring..." I think it's easy to overlook the fact that Luthien only comes to Beren "near dawn", then slips away from him "even as the day was breaking". The fleetingness of this experience makes this whole scene, for me, much more redolent of a short, transcendent glimpse of Faerie, rather than a night of passion. By coincidence, it reminds me of a scene in Joyce's A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man that sador and Darkstone have been discussing in another thread. Here's a part of that scene, in which Joyce's alter-ego Stephen is standing on the shore as evening falls:
A girl stood before him in midstream : alone and still, gazing out to sea. She seemed like one whom magic had changed into the likeness of a strange and beautiful sea-bird. ...
Long, long she suffered his gaze and then quietly withdrew her eyes from his and bent them towards the stream, gently stirring the water with her foot hither and thither. The first faint noise of gently moving water broke the silence, low and faint and whispering, faint as the bells of sleep; hither and thither, hither and thither: and a faint flame trembled on her cheek.
— Heavenly God ! cried Stephen's soul, in an outburst of profane joy. —
He turned away from her suddenly and set off across the strand. His cheeks were aflame ; his body was aglow ; his limbs were trembling. ...
Her image had passed into his soul for ever and no word had broken the holy silence of his ecstasy. Her eyes had called him and his soul had leaped at the call. To live, to err, to fall, to triumph, to recreate life out of life ! A wild angel had appeared to him, the angel of mortal youth and beauty, an envoy from the fair courts of life, to throw open before him in an instant of ecstasy the gates of all the ways of error and glory.
Like Stephen, Beren sees his vision at the moment of twilight. They are both borne away by a sudden glimpse into a magical world, but the vision ends as the twilight ends - with daylight for Beren, with nightfall for Stephen. I think somehow Joyce and Tolkien are approaching the experience of transcendence from different angles, and here's where they intersect. Joyce is taking the "glimpse of Faerie" and incorporating it into the realism everyday life, while Tolkien is going the other way, returning to the roots of mythology in which Faerie itself is real. But they are both, essentially, describing the same thing. And in the Joyce passage it's clear that there's no need for any mere, mundane sexual contact at all for such an experience - Faerie exists on another plane entirely.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Nov 21 2009, 6:44pm
Post #8 of 24
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That makes a lot of sense!
Another factor to consider might be what time period Tolkien wrote the specific passage of The Lay of Leithian which Squire quotes--a few years can make a huge difference. Before the Roaring Twenties, people would understand any reference to shapely limbs as sexual, since ladies' clothing normally did not reveal limbs in much detail. During and after, the sight of female limbs in public became commonplace.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 21 2009, 7:25pm
Post #9 of 24
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Another factor to consider might be what time period Tolkien wrote the specific passage of The Lay of Leithian which Squire quotes--a few years can make a huge difference. Before the Roaring Twenties, people would understand any reference to shapely limbs as sexual, since ladies' clothing normally did not reveal limbs in much detail. During and after, the sight of female limbs in public became commonplace.
But A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man was published 1916 (having been serialised in 1914-15). And part of the description of the girl that I left out of my quote does reveal some shapely limbs:
Her long slender bare legs were delicate as a crane's and pure save where an emerald trail of seaweed had fashioned itself as a sign upon the flesh. Her thighs, fuller and softhued as ivory, were bared almost to the hips where the white fringes of her drawers were like feathering of soft white down. Her slate-blue skirts were kilted boldly about her waist and dovetailed behind her. Her bosom was as a bird's, soft and slight, slight and soft as the breast of some dark-plumaged dove. But her long fair hair was girlish : and girlish, and touched with the wonder of mortal beauty, her face.
So bare limbs don't always mean sex, it seems, even before those permissive Twenties ... (Certainly there's a sexual element in the Joyce passage, but the sensation is sublimated into something purer and "holier". And that's what I'm arguing for in Beren's case as well.)
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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squire
Gondolin
Nov 21 2009, 8:31pm
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Nice stuff, and your thoughts are in agreement with the argument in the JRR Tolkien Encyclopedia that Joyce and Tolkien are linked in some non-obvious ways.
It's clear that Beren and Luthien's love is meant to be transcendent, that is, a love characteristic of Faerie and higher than mere mortals can expect to achieve. I don't agree that such a love excludes "mere mundane sexual contact". It's not mundane, by definition - rather, it's great! We could all wish for such a sexual contact, which heightens and deepens the feelings between two lovers. In that regard, as opposed to the question of whether and when Thingol would ratify their union, Tolkien's essay on the Lives and Customs of the Eldar is in agreement with the story of Beren and Luthien: sex is both good and necessary for true lovers.
After all, in the Joyce passage Stephen walks away, replete with his ecstatic vision. But Beren and Luthien fall into each other's arms when they finally meet. And let's face it, adults in love who have broken that first physical threshold do not stop at light petting. This would especially be true in a fairy tale that depends on their subsequently having an unbreakable bond across terrifying distances.
Nor is "a night of passion" implicit in my argument, which would thus be confounded by their only embracing "near dawn". But an "hour of passion" is allowable, as per my reading of the poem.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Nov 21 2009, 9:15pm
Post #11 of 24
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Adults do stop at that, sometimes. //
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Nov 22 2009, 12:21am
Post #13 of 24
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But all this talk about naked, young, female Elven flesh is making me a bit excited, you know what I mean!
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sador
Gondolin
Nov 22 2009, 10:40am
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It's a good thing I didn't link to the post with the picture! //
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"I hear now that thou wouldst barter with me. What is thy price?" - Sauron.
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sador
Gondolin
Nov 22 2009, 11:00am
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I think Tolkien was working within a romantic tradition in which Beren and Luthien would not stop, and in which not stopping would not be considered as cheapening, but rather heightening, the relationship.
But was the young Tolkien so free of his religious beliefs as not to impose chastity on this tradition? I would suggest that as superhumans, Elves would not react to sexual stimulation the way Men do - so while poor Beren was probably bursting with animal desire, Luthien might still have avoided him.
"I hear now that thou wouldst barter with me. What is thy price?" - Sauron.
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squire
Gondolin
Nov 22 2009, 1:51pm
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Well, that's the other way to go, of course
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That's an arguable position, which I understand several folks here are adopting. But I don't think we can really take a position on this simply by projecting our understanding of his real-world religious beliefs and sexual morality into an interpretation of how he related those aspects of his personality onto his own fantasy world's characters; especially when the story is supposed to have been based on his own relationship with his fiancee, yet already showed signs of evolving away from that beginning (when both Beren and Luthien were Elves, for instance), and into the core element of an entire Elvish-Mannish mythology in which Luthien and Beren, by meeting, become the parents of a bloodline that is fated to save the earth.
That's why I was so interested to read the poem with its strong textual suggestions of long-delayed, finally-consummated, sexual congress as a culminating expression of true love. Of course the other textual versions of the same myth, being shorter prose redactions, don't have all that expressive literary detail, so you can totally go with them instead.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 22 2009, 3:07pm
Post #17 of 24
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When I called sex "mundane", I wasn't saying it isn't great! I only meant "mundane" in its literal sense - that is, belonging to this world. I'm arguing that physical sex belongs to the physical world - it may be a gateway into Faerie, but in and of itself, it belongs to the body not the spirit. That's why I think that in a poem or even a heightened prose passage that is evoking a mythic sense of transcendence, the question of did-they-or-didn't-they physical sex just isn't part of the deal.
Joyce describes real, human, imperfect sex as well as the transcendent joy of Stephen - here's Molly Bloom, at the end of Ulysses, remembering the first time she and her future husband made love:
...yes when I put the rose in my hair like the Andalusian girls used or shall I wear a red yes and how he kissed me under the Moorish wall and I thought well as well him as another and then I asked him with my eyes to ask again yes and then he asked me would I yes to say yes my mountain flower and first I put my arms around him yes and drew him down to me so he could feel my breasts all perfume yes and his heart was going like mad and yes I said yes I will Yes.
That's a vivid evocation of real, physical sex, I'd say - there's joy and imagination, but also the imperfect, human "as well him as another". Joyce may use a mythic framework, but in the end he's more interested in showing the realism behind the myth. Tolkien, I think, goes the other way - he's striving to create the full illusion of myth. And that's where I'd argue physical sex itself doesn't have a place.
Looking at it just from the story perspective, we also have this, from the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar: "their spirits being masters of their bodies, [Elves] are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast." So the question is, does Beren's human desire overmaster Luthien's Elvish control? I'd say not - I'd say, in fact, that his experience is very much within the tradition of man's experience of Faerie. Like the knight in La Belle Dame Sans Merci, or poor Wandering Aengus, or many another victim of love in a Celtic/Romantic poem, he is left "enchanted" - not satisfied, but bereft and longing for the ecstasy that has slipped from his grasp.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 22 2009, 3:10pm
Post #18 of 24
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*Clears throat, smooths skirt*
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Hmm, yes, sorry. Maybe things did get just a little racy there! And I'm thinking maybe you'd better not read the quote I just copied into my reply to squire ;-)
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 22 2009, 7:29pm
Post #19 of 24
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The relationship between love and sexuality
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is certainly a complicated one. I don't think any of us argue that the love B&L felt for each-other was the genuine love and partnership we all aspire to and could understand in a sexless world (i.e. children too young to understand sexuality would still understand that B&L are inseparable "buddies" and who, quite literally, give their lives to save one-another). This heroic behavior they exhibit is not because they want to go to bed with each-other.
At the same time, the love between B&L is obviously sexual: they do get married, after all, although perhaps not for a while. Even if they don't get married until after they return from Mandos, however, it is obvious that there was something very physical between them from the very first time they meet.
The paleobotanist is back!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Nov 22 2009, 10:37pm
Post #20 of 24
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...did Tolkien even want us to know? Would he ever tell us whether he and Edith went all the way before marriage? Not hardly, no matter what the answer might be; it isn't our business. Yet he did not hesitate to wax poetic about his great love for his wife. Similarly, perhaps he would smile coyly at all of our questions about Luthien and Beren, and give no answer back. Encourage us to guess? Yes, certainly. But maybe we have to accept that no amount of perusing his words, written anywhere, will ever give us a definitive answer, and this he probably intended.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 23 2009, 7:57pm
Post #22 of 24
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about there being no need for a "definitive" answer to a question like this. Despite having argued strongly for the opposite, I still think your argument from back in that old thread is a very convincing one. And having just re-read your comments on the passage you quote from the Lay of Leithian, I can't help thinking that the reference to the "madness" of Luthien pretty much destroys my argument that she would have remained Elvishly self-contained....
I think you and Dreamdeer are quite right to suggest that the ambiguity here is quite deliberate. For me, that's all a part of Tolkien's "mythologizing" approach - the idea that a story can be told in different ways at different times, and indeed be understood differently by different audiences, while remaining fundamentally true. We may never know what "really" happened, but we all get the essential message, and interpret it through the prism that works for each of us.
I'm still not sure that Tolkien would have intended to convey the impression that Beren and Luthien made love on their first meeting, but as you argue very convincingly, the language echoes that of poems where you are intended to get that impression. I think at the very least, he wanted to leave the question ambiguous. And there's nobody quite like Tolkien for deliberate, tantalising ambiguity, when it suits him.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Twit
Menegroth
Nov 26 2009, 2:25pm
Post #23 of 24
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a bit at least
So, Beren could speak Elven could he at least partly. That makes him a bit more cultural than an unhoused outlaw in the country!
Maybe the official language was Elven, although most people didn't speak it, like the English aristocracy [many moons ago] speaking French rather than English. Some 'normal' people would have been able to speak both.
Anyway Beren recovers from his wounds in the Forest and they fall in love and walk amongst the forest. Had he not come to Doriath, but had just found more wilderness, would Beren have died then without aid?
I think so, I think it says there is no food in the wilderness.
Anyway he needed to recover in peace.
Also, did they do more besids just walk?
Maybe, it doesn't matter much to me. My personal preference is that they didn't go all the way, which explains Thingol's words a bit later - he can see he may have already lost her, but it's not yet too late in any literal sense.Them remaining unmarried for me fits the idea that they are fantastical characters that we can only wish we were more like. This for me is the same sort of thing as Mary being a virgin when she gave birth. As stories it works ok, but in reality, well not so.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 27 2009, 6:41am
Post #24 of 24
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of Middle Earth in the Third Age is Westron, a language derived from Adűnaic, the language of Númenor. In the First Age, Númenor doesn't exist yet, so the lingua franca of travelers and traders has to be something else. Given that the Elves are the dominant culture in Middle Earth at this time (excluding Morgoth, of course), and given that the dominant Elven culture, at least linguistically, is the Sindarin culture, it would make sense that the common tongue of Beleriand would be Sindarin.
So yes, anybody used to traveling abroad is probably able to speak passable Sindarin - which happens to be the native language of Doriath.
The paleobotanist is back!
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