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SaulComposer
Nargothrond
Sep 11 2009, 10:13pm
Post #1 of 43
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Liv Tyler Jewish
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I have found out that the beautiful actress Liv Tyler who played Arwen is Jewish. Her mother Bebe Buell is Jewish, and since Judaism is passed down through the mother, she is Jewish.
I also found out that Sean Austin's father is Jewish, but that doesnt make him a Jew because it must come from his mother.
Another Jewish addition to the Lord of the Rings Trilogy is Howard Shore, the composer of the enchanting soundtrack for the LOTR trilogy.
If anyone else knows of Jewish actors and actresses that participated in the films, please let me know.
Cheers,
Saul
http://www.musicalpaintings.net/
(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Sep 11 2009, 10:14pm)
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squire
Gondolin
Sep 11 2009, 10:51pm
Post #2 of 43
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I understand that Jewish descent is traditionally passed down the mothers' line. But doesn't the individual have something to say about it? That is, couldn't Liv Tyler be considered to be Jewish, not because of her mother and father, but because she chooses to continue to embrace the faith that her ancestry offered her? Couldn't Sean Astin be a Jew, if he chose to honor his father's heritage and be a Jew, no matter his mother's faith? If one of the Lord of the Rings actors or actresses was Jewish by an act of conversion, would that count for your list? I am reminded of a number of friends in whose families the wife converted to Judaism because she loved her husband, and the husband's family then congratulated themselves that the grandchildren would be truly Jewish because the formerly Irish or WASP mother now "was" Jewish!
"Blood" used to tell us a lot about ourselves. I don't think that is as acceptable these days as it used to be. I don't think the Jews are a "race" so much as a tradition that has survived by an emphasis on family to encourage religious continuity. The ethnic component is strong, but not at all definitive. The Nuremberg Laws and their consequences did a lot to discredit the idea that one is a Jew whether one likes it or not.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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SaulComposer
Nargothrond
Sep 11 2009, 11:01pm
Post #3 of 43
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Well, in Jewish Law or Halacha, in order to be considered a Jew you're mother must be Jewish.
In other matters, such as priesthood and Kinghood, the father must be a priest in order to be a priest , the same goes for a King.
For example, the Priests that served in the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem all had fathers that were priests all the way back to Aaron, who was the father of all priests. Also to be a King over Israel a person must be a descendant of King David. He will not be considered King through his mother, even if his mother would be a descendant of King David, that doesn’t qualify him.
So, it really has to do with Law. In order to be considered Jewish, you're mother must be Jewish, and in order to be considered a Priest or a King your father must be a priest or a descandant of King David.
Best,
Saul
http://www.musicalpaintings.net/
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Tim
Dor-Lomin
Sep 11 2009, 11:03pm
Post #4 of 43
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I don't think the Jews are a "race" so much as a tradition that has survived by an emphasis on family to encourage religious continuity. The ethnic component is strong, but not at all definitive. The Nuremberg Laws and their consequences did a lot to discredit the idea that one is a Jew whether one likes it or not.
I agree and well said. 
Good... Bad..... I'm the guy with the gun.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Sep 12 2009, 7:13am
Post #5 of 43
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It is surely possible to convert to Judaism.
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Here's one path. As I recall, Sammy Davis Jr. was a Jew, by conversion.
The Rohirrim, by Peter Xavier Price
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Sep 12 2009, 7:13am)
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Kyriel
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 12 2009, 10:37am
Post #6 of 43
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I think I get where SaulComposer is coming from, though
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I don't have the authority to say who is and isn't a Jew, but I do understand the minority mindset from a number of different angles, the very least of which is my being left-handed. When you're part of a small group that stands out in one way or another, and especially when you face difficulties because of your difference (whether it's being the victim of hate crimes or simply having trouble with right-handed gadgets), you tend to notice and consciously look for others who are like yourself. It gives you a certain amount of satisfaction and, at times, comfort, to know that "one of your own" is out there representing the group and doing well. So I don't think SaulComposer is trying to lay down any laws about who is and isn't Jewish; he's just finding family.
Those left standing will make millions writing books on the way it should have been. --Incubus
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squire
Gondolin
Sep 12 2009, 3:38pm
Post #7 of 43
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I agree that was SaulComposer's motivation, and there's nothing wrong with that, at all. It's his methodology I was asking about. Using the law of maternal descent, he took the traditional point of view that Judaism is somehow a genetic, heritable quality because the Jews are a "race". Starting from that premise, he was relying on his research into ancestral gender to determine that the stars in question were or weren't Jewish, rather than on the stars' own biographies.
I was arguing, politely I hope, that the issue is more complex than that. I believe that if Liv Tyler is known to be Jewish by her own assertion or from witnesses who know her, it would have been sufficient to conclude she is Jewish. I think it's not sufficient to learn that her mother was Jewish, and say therefore she must be and no further inquiry is needed.
Likewise with Astin (who is, by the way, said in one film industry database to be Catholic). A man whose religion is yet unknown to us but who we know had a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother might very well be Jewish - the odds are quite high, if you think about it! I know many Jewish people with a similar mixed heritage. Had Astin's parents raised him in the father's faith, or had Astin himself chosen to be confirmed in his father's faith once he reached adulthood, I would hope that no one would say he wasn't really Jewish.
With all respect to SaulComposer and his sincere interest in knowing who of The Lord of the Rings cast and crew share the Jewish faith, or have Jewish ancestry, I think people's identities should be informed, but not determined, by heredity or family. I was just now directed by Google to a discussion board that had an exchange in 2003 about Tyler's, and Orlando Bloom's, possible identities as Jews, using parental or maternal ancestry as the concluding argument. I should say "condemning" argument, for it was a rather appalling White Supremacist site.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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orcbane
Mithlond
Sep 12 2009, 4:07pm
Post #8 of 43
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Kyriel, what about having your arms swopped surgically ? I guess the grip would then be backwards and maybe your thumbs would be alternately oriented, but on the positive side, you could scare everyone standing behind you in lines and such.
I'm not supposed to be here
(This post was edited by Altaira on Sep 12 2009, 4:36pm)
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orcbane
Mithlond
Sep 12 2009, 4:30pm
Post #9 of 43
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I do follow your distinction here and think it is well to consider when approaching conversations. It has me thinking about each persons identity and the ownership of it. Is stereo-typing just an early form of identity theft ? Like stealing just to steal and then throwing the stolen property away.
I also think the impulse to be proud of backrounds and heritage is both natural and not of itself wrong. I often think about my own ancestors and wonder about connections. I also find other's traditions among the most interesting things on earth. I regret when abusers of this variety, those who view it negatively, silence its expression.
I'm not supposed to be here
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Sep 12 2009, 7:09pm
Post #10 of 43
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related to Sean Astin's Jewish father (Michael Tell):
Sean only found out that Michael Tell was his father (through DNA testing) when he was in his 20s. He was brought up by John Astin, who married Sean's mother Patty Duke when Sean was a small child. It seems that she always believed that his father was actually Desi Arnaz Jr., her boyfriend right before her brief marriage to Tell. So there was no Jewish heritage during Sean's formative years at all, although he has said that he has become close to his natural father since then. But when asked about his heritage, he usually seems to say "Irish".
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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sador
Gondolin
Sep 12 2009, 7:36pm
Post #11 of 43
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I don't really care about the Jewishness of this or that actor. At least until someone claims their Jewish heritage influenced them in a distinct way, I would not quite look into it.
But perhaps that is because I do not care that much about celebrity trivia.
I would be far more interested to find how many Jews are on board - for the simple reason that I have a more direct interaction with the other TORnsibs, and care more about them as persons.
But as I am not exactly sharing of personal information regarding myself (at least, far less than many others around here) - I do not feel comfortable to ask others for confidences I won't willingly give.
"I would weep, if I were not so weary" - Miriel.
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Doriath
Sep 13 2009, 12:16am
Post #12 of 43
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As long as everyone could agree
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to let the individual decide what makes him or herself a Jew, we would probably be okay.
I still remember a similarly themed side-"discussion" as one of the ugliest flame wars I have ever seen on TORn or anywhere else on the internet. :/ And the ugliness was Practicing Jew Vs. "Wrong" Kind of Practicing Jew, which made it even sadder and more gut-churning. I don't know if any of those old-timers even lurk anymore, but I know at least one of them made the jump to the new boards but hasn't posted in a long time. I know there are others still around with a least some Jewish ancestry...and cooler heads about it, it seems. ;)
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SaulComposer
Nargothrond
Sep 13 2009, 12:55am
Post #13 of 43
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Hello there, and sorry for the short answer before, the Sabbath was approaching and I had no time to give you an encompassing answer.
To clarify one important point is that Jewish Law clearly says that anyone who chooses to become Jewish through an Orthodox Jewish court is considered 100% Jewish without any limitations. Even Abraham our great father was not born Jewish. His parents were idol worshipers and he went against their ideology and destroyed all the idols of Terach his father, and then he recognized G-d and believed in him. There after he fulfilled G-d's commandment and circumcised himself. He then became the first Jew in the world and he thought his faith to his children and grandchildren.
The only limitation that a convert has is that he can't be a priest nor a King. But that's hardly a limitation because the vast majority of Jews have the same limitation.
Some of our greatest leaders and sages were children of converts. For example, King David and King Solomon were both descendants of Ruth, who was a Moabite princess that converted to Judaism and married Boaz who was from the Tribe of Judah. Even the Messiah that we Jews are waiting for and praying for to come and redeem us will be a descendant of King David, who was himself a descendant of Ruth as I mentioned.
One of the most influential and greatest Rabbis and leaders the Jewish people ever had was Rabbi Akiva(lived about 2000 years ago). He was a son of a convert and his Knowledge of Torah and his sainthood was so great that when G-d was showing Moses all the leaders the Jewish people will have all throughout the ages, when he came to Akiva, Moses asked G-d :" You have such a man on earth and yet you choose me to give the Torah to your children"?
Even Moses the greatest of all prophets, the prince of Prophets, the redeemer of the Jewish people acknowledged the greatness of Rabbi Akiva to the point that he asked G-d that he is more worthy to redeem the Jewish people from Egypt then himself.
We are commanded in the Torah to "love the convert".
There is absolutely no difference between me and a convert, we are both Jews.
But said all this, the Jewish Law must be included in all of this. One can't become a Jew just by "wanting" or "Believing" . He must go through a conversion process in front of an Orthodox Jewish court of at least three Jewish Orthodox scholars. If this most imperative thing is not done, then a person can't be considered Jewish in any way shape or form.
Is Judaism a race today?
No its not because people of all walks of life and almost every background have converted to Judaism and therefore one can't say that a Jew belongs to a particular race. There are European, Asian , and African Jews.
Also a very important point:
When a person converts to Judaism and gets married to another Jew, his children are Jewish and do not need anymore conversion. They are Jews because their parents are, and if his mother became Judaism, they are Jewish because their mother is.
I hope this is clear.
Best,
Saul
http://www.musicalpaintings.net/
(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Sep 13 2009, 1:05am)
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Smeagirl/Girllum
Mithlond
Sep 13 2009, 4:09am
Post #14 of 43
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I consider it both a race and a religion.
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A race, because there are genetic conditions more common in Jews (as there are other genetic conditions more common in other races). So if someone is at risk of (for instance), Tay-Sachs disease, it would be important for them and their doctors to be aware of their Jewish heritage, regardless of their religion.
Of course, when it comes to religious beliefs and practices, anyone can be Jewish, whether they were raised in this faith or converted later.
The difficulty is that if someone says, "I'm Jewish," it can be unclear whether they're talking about their heritage or their beliefs. In my experience, if someone is, say, a Jew from Russia, they would say "I'm Jewish," while a non-Jew from Russia would say "I'm Russian." The Jew could say "I'm Russian" just the same, but doesn't, because they identify more with the worldwide Jewish culture than with the Russian culture. But saying "I'm Jewish" in this context doesn't necessarily mean they're religious; it's might just be a description of their family background.
(It's midnight and I'm tired; sorry if any of the above is unclear. I'll get back to this interesting thread tomorrow.)
"I deemed it the worst part of all my journey, the road back, watching him day and night, making him walk before me with a halter on his neck, gagged, until he was tamed by lack of drink and food, driving him ever towards Mirkwood."
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Doriath
Sep 13 2009, 5:07am
Post #15 of 43
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I agree, but I must admit that I'm influenced by the opinion of friends who would define themselves as "legally and ethnically Jewish, but religiously Christian". They get very offended if someone implies that they can't or shouldn't call themselves Jews. They haven't left their heritage or all traces of Judaism behind in favor of Christianity. I figure they ought to know how to identify themselves better than anyone else would.
Others who would not legally be able to call themselves Jewish, self-identify as "half-Jewish" even if they don't practice any religion at all. I support my fellow Americans in that right, too.
Seems like there's enough conflict available from "outside" without stirring up any from "within". Yet I've seen it happen.
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sador
Gondolin
Sep 13 2009, 5:24am
Post #16 of 43
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The "if you say so" definition of religious tolerance.
Personally, I don't; I believe there is a component of heritage, as well as one of commitment, in religion (at least in mine; can't speak for others), which is not subject to self-definition.
But I had absolutely no intention of opening this (or any other) can of worms. I just said that I am more interested in how members of this board were affected by their being Jewish, than in any actors/actresses being so - with no claim to scrutinise anyone's credentials. I am not interested in arraging marriages for my kids, only in my fellow-fans, especially regarding their reading of Tolkien.
Moreover, this was meant as an opinion regarding interest in celebrities vs. TORnsibs, not as a question.
But if you read it as such, and are concerned it might induce another flamewar - I retract it.
"I would weep, if I were not so weary" - Miriel.
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Doriath
Sep 13 2009, 5:56am
Post #17 of 43
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that you were making an effort to start a conversation about it now. But I didn't know who might be lurking and might possibly stir up bad feelings like before, and apparently, made a very bad job of attempting to head them off just in case. :/ And, as I said, the fighting was really between practicing members of different Jewish sects, so the biggest "self-identification" issue that time was between those who were also Jewish by religion. That's what made it so distressing to witness, the lack of toleration for each other.
(This post was edited by Eowyn of Penns Woods on Sep 13 2009, 5:59am)
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SaulComposer
Nargothrond
Sep 13 2009, 6:05am
Post #18 of 43
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Well, I thanks G-d was not present to see this take place but if we are talking about Tolerance between different Jewish "sects" then I must mention that in contrast to Christianity and Islam who all throughout the ages even until today in the case of Islam they are waging wars and many thousands of people were murdered because of this intolerance.
Examples:
Lutherans and the Catholic church. Sunnis and Shihads and so on.
By comparison the Jewish disagreement never turned violent thank G-d, it never burst out from an internet fan website.
And that's good to know.
http://www.musicalpaintings.net/
(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Sep 13 2009, 6:08am)
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orcbane
Mithlond
Sep 13 2009, 6:06am
Post #19 of 43
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The people who read Tolkien are more interesting then Tolkien
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But Tolkien of course starts off being severely handicapped cause he's dead.
Anyway, I know people are interested in the subject of religion and religion-not, and would like to discuss them. Eowyn mentions an interesting group of people and you have expressed interest in certain groups. Lately I have been mainly talking with Muslims, including one at least that is a Lotr-Fan, and finding it very engaging.
But I think we are possibly drifting off the original topic.
I wish we could discuss these things in new threads. But the life expectancy of any I opened on such a subject is about 45 seconds. And Eowyn is correct, when she warns where they usually go, here and on most Forums. But it is not true of all Forums & can be done. I have found a very few that manage an unusual degree of open dialog.
I'm not supposed to be here
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L. Ron Halfelven
Hithlum
Sep 13 2009, 12:30pm
Post #20 of 43
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There was that Hornberg guy everyone kept talking about in TT./
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Get ready, mooters, here comes the Big Apple!
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Smeagirl/Girllum
Mithlond
Sep 13 2009, 1:56pm
Post #21 of 43
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I think we can have tolerance without an "if you say so" definition.
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I disagree with this "if you say so" idea. For example, if there were a person who went around saying "I am a Jew" when they actually knew zilch about Judaism, didn't engage in any particularly Jewish practices and didn't have any connection to Judaism other than saying "I am a Jew," I think people would be quite right in saying, "No, actually you're not." Same goes for any religion or religious sect.
The problem comes about when people follow up their "No, actually you're not" with "So you'd better stop saying that!" which escalates into persecution and sometimes violence. When IMO the correct reaction would be to say, "Meh." If someone lies or is confused about a religion, it should be the same as if they lie or are confused about anything else -- either just avoid them, or discuss the disagreement in a civilized manner.
But people have such strong feelings about their own religious beliefs, and some religions expressly teach that other religions are inferior, so people have trouble saying "meh."
I don't see any problem with (politely) discussing the actors' religious heritage or beliefs, just as we might discuss any other publicly-available information about them.
"I deemed it the worst part of all my journey, the road back, watching him day and night, making him walk before me with a halter on his neck, gagged, until he was tamed by lack of drink and food, driving him ever towards Mirkwood."
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Smeagirl/Girllum
Mithlond
Sep 13 2009, 3:20pm
Post #22 of 43
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What we need here is a few good tater pancakes.
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OK, there's a plot bunny hopping in my head and no time to write it, but maybe some else wants to?
Could someone please write a version of this "taters" scene where Sam is stirring a pot of borscht, and Gollum is talking about gefilte fish?
Alternately, the (book) balrog scene, where instead of (IIRC) Legolas shouting "Ai! A balrog!" he's shouting "Oy! A balrog!"
Thanks very much. I'll check back later. 
"I deemed it the worst part of all my journey, the road back, watching him day and night, making him walk before me with a halter on his neck, gagged, until he was tamed by lack of drink and food, driving him ever towards Mirkwood."
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Dwana
Lindon
Sep 14 2009, 2:56am
Post #23 of 43
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I'm an American Christian descended from German Jews. My family converted to Lutheranism before immigrating here in the late 1800s. The funny thing is that I don't consider myself a Jew, just a descendant, but some Jews would consider me Jewish.
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Dwana
Lindon
Sep 14 2009, 3:16am
Post #25 of 43
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I'm also going to follow some of the related links. This may sound superficial, but I only really became interested in my Jewish heritage through Schindler's List. I was born and raised in a small German farming community in South Texas where my parents where also born and raised and where everyone is related to everyone else. I've since read the book, but originally watching the movie, I was struck by how many of our names were called out on the train platforms, in the lines, etc. Klein, Klenk, Krienhop, Strack....etc. All the names from my cousins, family, community.
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