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squire
Gondolin
Sep 4 2009, 1:02am
Post #1 of 3
(1891 views)
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**Of the Coming of the Elves** - I have seen the Promised Land
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Synopsis for this thread: The Elvish ambassador-kings convince three groups of Elves to migrate to the West. Start from: But the Elves were at first unwilling to hearken to the summons,… and finish at: Two lords they had, for their numbers were great: Elwë Singollo (which signifies Greymantle) and Olwë his brother.
I. Story Time
We have learned that the Valar wish to take a kind of “older brothers and sisters” or “kindly aunts and uncles” attitude towards the First Children of Iluvatar (i.e., the Elves). Yet they have managed to scare the pants (do they wear pants?) off the Elves so far, by neglecting to introduce themselves before nearly destroying the world that surrounds the Elves’ enclave.
A. Do the Elves at this point understand their relationship to the Valar? To Iluvatar? Do the Elves “worship” the Valar, even in their guises as forces of nature?
Three top Elves go to Valinor and are wowed by it all. Just wowed. They return to Elfland and try to convince everybody to go along with this trip to Valinor quest… journey… thing.
B. Was this the wisest approach to convincing the Elves to make the big move? Whose idea was this (did Oromë ask the “noblest” Elves, for instance, etc.), and what was the thinking behind it?
Varda and Manwë in Valinor, by Ted Nasmith
The ambassadors are “filled with awe” and “desired greatly” the light of the Trees.
C. Is this ambiguous language, coming from Tolkien?
The Elves, when Oromë discovered them, were halfway to hell already thanks to Melkor. Then Oromë goes away a lot, leaving the Elves alone again, or with an unspecified “guard” during the war.
D. At what point did serious instruction of all the Elves, as to the actual state of the Universe, begin? In Cuivienen? On the road? Not until you get to Valinor, little buddy?
 
Two portraits of Finwë. Artist unknown; Sabine Klement
The three leaders, Ingwë, Finwë, and Elwë, are said to have “kindreds” of whom they are the “lords”.
E. Has there been a second and/or third generation of Elves born at this point? Or more? How many were “first born”, and how many were added by natural increase? What qualified these three as the leaders of their respective folk?
The Elves have children, and the Valar model their earthly existence on Elvish forms and examples. Yet the Valar do not have children, and it seems they see the Elves as substituting for that aspect of life.
F. Why did Tolkien eliminate all suggestion that the Valar had “children”, as was often found in his early conceptions of his pantheon?
“Many” Elves “refuse[] the summons, preferring the starlight and the wide spaces of Middle-earth to the rumour of the Trees.” Thus the Elvish people are “sundered”, and the Avari, the “Unwilling”, are left behind in the darkness.
G. Is this – was this – a bad thing?
Noldor Elves, by greenapplefreak
Earlier we saw that the “noblest” Elves did not flee from Oromë’s first appearance, because like all true Elves they were drawn to the “light of Aman” in his face.
H. Why then do the Avari, who are part of that "noblest" group, not follow through at this point and seek out that light at its source?
I. Do the Avari have their own traditions in which they made the wiser choice?
J. Is it an unconscious irony that in one line we learn that those choosing to live in the light of the Trees will henceforth be called the Eldar (“Star People”), and in the next line we read that others refuse to leave because they “prefer the starlight”?
Next the Elves “prepare a great march”, and they arrange to march in three “hosts” that match the three lords who we have met already.
Ingwë, by Miriam Ellis
1. Ingwë leads the smallest group, the Vanyar or Fair Elves; looking ahead we learn they will go to Valinor, hang out with the Valar, and never be seen again in Middle-earth (i.e., by Men). They are especially favored by Manwë and Varda.
2. Finwë leads the next group, the Noldor. They are supposed to be “wise”, and will be sponsored by Aulë, Vala of earths and of crafts. Their nickname is the “Deep Elves”. We are told that they will become famous for fighting and suffering in “northern lands of old.”
3. Two lords, the brothers Elwë and Olwë, lead the biggest and last group, called the Teleri (from Elvish tel-, “finish, end, be last” = the slowest ones on the journey). They are most reluctant to leave Middle-earth; also they love water. When they finally hit the Sea, they are ecstatic, and they will settle eventually not inland in Valinor, but on the shores of Aman. There they will be called the Falmari, the “Sea Elves.” Guess which Vala is their special friend.
K. How many structural story devices do you see in these arrangements? Likewise: themes that Tolkien holds close to his heart?
II. Text and Tradition
Not tonight, dear, I have a headache.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Sep 4 2009, 11:22pm
Post #2 of 3
(1748 views)
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some more comments....a few questions
[In reply to]
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Ok...wait a minute. What'd I miss? When did the Elves see any other Valar besides Orome?
A. Do the Elves at this point understand their relationship to the Valar? To Iluvatar? Do the Elves “worship” the Valar, even in their guises as forces of nature?
No to the first two. As to the third...not sure. I think more filled with wonder--like children.
B. Was this the wisest approach to convincing the Elves to make the big move? Whose idea was this (did Oromë ask the “noblest” Elves, for instance, etc.), and what was the thinking behind it?
I suppose it's a common strategy--get the leaders on board with the idea and let *them* present the idea to the rest of the people. There are probably lots of examples in human history.
D. At what point did serious instruction of all the Elves, as to the actual state of the Universe, begin? In Cuivienen? On the road? Not until you get to Valinor, little buddy?
Orome probably disclosed at least a bit of information while in Cuivienen and the chosen *three* must have learned a few things while in Valinor that *wowed* them. Likely thiese bits and pieces were discussed while on the road--campfire stories? Though I would imagine the real learning came once they were settled
E. Has there been a second and/or third generation of Elves born at this point? Or more? How many were “first born”, and how many were added by natural increase? What qualified these three as the leaders of their respective folk?
Shoot, where's that timeline? Quite some time has passed since the Children were awakened, right? Of course the number of years that have passed doesn't necessarily mean that another generation of Elves has already been born. Kindreds could only refer to brothers/sisters, I suppose. Since the eldest son of Finwe is noted to have been born in Valinor, I'm going to assume that all those that made the journey were first generation-ers.
F. Why did Tolkien eliminate all suggestion that the Valar had “children”, as was often found in his early conceptions of his pantheon?
If the Valar had had children of their own, would they have been able to focus nearly as much on these "adopted" children? I'm thinking of stories in which the nanny/tutor role was filled by an unmarried, childless person. Then there are the (also childless/unmarried) priests/nuns who provide instruction/guidance. Tolkien experienced some of this in his upbringing, didn't he?
G. Is this – was this – a bad thing?
I don't see it a a bad thing. These should be the "experts" of M-e living.
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sador
Gondolin
Sep 7 2009, 1:40pm
Post #3 of 3
(1765 views)
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(do they wear pants?)
Sorry; I don't remember my Bakshi well enough.
But greenapplefreak thinks they don't.
A. Do the Elves at this point understand their relationship to the Valar? To Iluvatar?
Do we now?
Do the Elves “worship” the Valar, even in their guises as forces of nature?
That would seem the natural thing to do.
B. Was this the wisest approach to convincing the Elves to make the big move?
Had this been Tulkas, I would guess not. But Orome is supposed to know his stuff.
Whose idea was this (did Oromë ask the “noblest” Elves, for instance, etc.), and what was the thinking behind it?
I suspect it was the first three who approached him (and therefore the 'noblest'), and the idea was that if these three were drawn to the light of Orome's face, Valinor would really wow them.
It worked.
C. Is this ambiguous language, coming from Tolkien?
Do you mean the 'profound desire' dernwyn is so fond of quoting?
D. At what point did serious instruction of all the Elves, as to the actual state of the Universe, begin? In Cuivienen? On the road? Not until you get to Valinor, little buddy?
I would say as soon as possible. Take no more risks.
E. Has there been a second and/or third generation of Elves born at this point? Or more? How many were “first born”, and how many were added by natural increase?
I think in some later writing Tolkien has given a bit of his own thinking about this queestion; but I haven't got that far in my reading, yet.
What qualified these three as the leaders of their respective folk?
As I said before - I think they were the first three to approach Orome.
F. Why did Tolkien eliminate all suggestion that the Valar had “children”, as was often found in his early conceptions of his pantheon?
Too pagan.
G. Is this – was this – a bad thing?
In the context of the early versions (before the Athrabeth), it was a good thing; the Avari were needed to instruct the aftercomers.
But it gave Melkor more orc-material, which could hardly be called good.
H. Why then do the Avari, who are part of that "noblest" group, not follow through at this point and seek out that light at its source?
That was Ulmo, working behind the scenes to thwart the Doom of Mandos.
I. Do the Avari have their own traditions in which they made the wiser choice?
Probably.
J. Is it an unconscious irony that in one line we learn that those choosing to live in the light of the Trees will henceforth be called the Eldar (“Star People”), and in the next line we read that others refuse to leave because they “prefer the starlight”?
As I said before, I think Orome gave them the name 'Eldar' because of Varda's previous labours.
And if you love the stars so much - wouldn't you rather meet the Kindler?
K. How many structural story devices do you see in these arrangements? Likewise: themes that Tolkien holds close to his heart?
I'll skip that one. Sorry.
"Maybe we cannot guess within a narrow count of days the hour appointed" - Yavanna.
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