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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Jul 14 2009, 5:58pm
Post #1 of 24
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The Clouds Bursts Part I
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Hi everybody,
This is my first attempt at leading a discussion on a chapter of actual narrative within a story of Toilkiens - I previously lead a discussion on 'Durin's Folk' in the Appendices in TLOR, which is certainly a whole different ballgame, much more 'fact oriented' & less opinion-oriented. I've tried to pattern the questions on the types of things I've seen others doing week after week, so hopefully, it works out OK.
I also am trying to stay away from duplicate questions that are bound to pop up previously (it happened to me the week after my last discussion when the exact question I asked on dragons was re-asked the following week). So, I'm not asking you folks to compare the Arkenstone to other gems in Middle-earth like the Nauglimir & Silmarils as I'm sure it's been done (if not, have at it, lol).
"And now, to buisness" as Ton Wee told Obi Wan Kenobi in AOTC...... 
The Chapter begins with a messenger from Bard, The Elvenking & their forces (henceforth known as Bard & Co.) saying that they want a new embassy, claiming there are new tidings at hand. Thorin assumes they have gotten word that Dain approaches with over 500 grim Dwarves dressed for battle, many with experience in the dreadful Dwarf & Goblin War.".....
1. What might have been expected to occur in the parley had this embassy simply been made because Dain had been discovered approaching? What would Bard and/or the Elvenking suggest or renegotiate? How about Thorin?
Negotiations begin & Bard askes Thorin if he would reconsider; Thorin naturally (and stubbornly, which is natural for him, lol) refuses, haughtilly saying HE doesn't change his mind in a few days, blah, blah, blah.....
Then Bard says:
"Is there nothing for which you would yeild any of your gold"
"Nothing that you or your friends have to offer." replies Thorin.
2. Isn't this an odd reply for Thorin to make out of the blue in the course of a normal conversation when he has no clue whatsover that the Arkenstone might be in the enemy's poession?
This is always struck me as very odd phrasing on Tolkien's part & not at all realistic. What are your thoughts?
Thorin, of course, discovers Bard & Co. do indeed have something of value to trade - the Arkenstone! He immediately starts throwing a major conniption fit & calls Bard & Co. theives while asking for an explantion: "But how come you by the heirloom of me house - if there is need to ask such a question of theives?"
3. Is there any justification to Thorin calling his enemy theives without having a clue about where they even got the Arkenstone?
"I gave it to them!" squeaked Bilbo, who was peering over the wall, by now in dreadful fright.
4. Bilbo, Bilbo, Bilbo......
Why in the world does he up and confess to stealing the Arkenstone right then and there?
Wouldn't silence have been a better & safer way to proceed? Afterall, Bard & Co have the Arkenstone & does Thorin really need to know any more than that?
"You,!You!" cried Thorin, turning upon Bilbo and grasping him with both hands. 'You miserable hobbit!You undersized - burglar! he shouted at a loss for words, and he shook poor Bilbo like a rabbit.
5. Is this the final payoff for all the work Tolkien has put in for the Bilbo/burglar angle? How do you think Bilbo felt at this moment considering his original adversion to being called a burglar?
6. Tolkien refers to Thorin shaking Biblo 'like a rabbit'. Earlier, one of the trolls calls Bilbo 'a little rabbit'. Why does Tolkien seem to like to equate the hobbit to a rabbit? Why this partcular animal?
Gandalf is bad-mouthed by Thorin for supplying Bilbo for the original Thorin & Company......
"By the beard of Durin! I wish Gandalf was here! Curse him for his choice of you! May his beard wither! As for you, I will throw you to the rocks! he cried and lifted Bilbo in his arms.
'Stay! Your wish is granted! said a voice The old man with the casket threw aside his hood & cloak. "Here is Gandalf! And none too soon it seems. If you don't like my burglar, please don't damage him. Put him down and listen first to what he has to say."
7. Why does Gandalf refer to Bilbo as 'my Burglar' instead of 'The Hobbit', 'Bilbo' or 'Mr Baggins'?
Is it just a choice of words or might there be a reason behind his choice?
Bilbo explains his justification in stealing and/or giving away the Arkenstone (depending on your point of view):
"You remember saying that I might choose my own fourteenth share?Perhaps I took it too literally - I have been told that dwarves are sometimes politer in word than in deed....Take it that I have disposed of my share as I wished and let it go at that."
8. Does Bilbo really believe this after Thorin's rather clear instructions about the Arkenstone or is he just thinking on his feet, trying to get out of a tight jam?
9. Thorin capitulates & agrees to bring out 1/14 of the hoarde in silver & gold, setting aside the gems.
This gets no agruement at all from Bard & Company. Is Thorin right in doing this? Why wouldn't Bard & Co. complain about no gems? Is Thorin still scheming here by just wanting to keep the gems?
10. As Bilbo prepares to leave the mountain, several Dwarves feel shame & pity at his going, as opposed to Thorin, who is calling Bilbo a 'descendent of rats' & threatening to 'sting his feet' with arrows.
Who do you think has the right feelings towards Bilbo? Bombur, who feels ashamed & will miss Mr Baggins, Thorin who feels betrayed, or is the truth lying somewhere between?
The Ultimate Tolkien Trivia Quiz: http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/story.php?title=so-you-want-to-be-tolkien-geek
(This post was edited by Tolkien Forever on Jul 14 2009, 6:06pm)
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 14 2009, 8:54pm
Post #2 of 24
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1. What might have been expected to occur in the parley had this embassy simply been made because Dain had been discovered approaching? What would Bard and/or the Elvenking suggest or renegotiate? How about Thorin?
Good question! Thorin presumably was hoping that the Elvenking would retreat to the forest with his tail between his legs, while Bard would come unarmed and ask for the price of the lost supplies and ponies the Lake-men gave the dwarves, and perhaps any items that obviously belonged to the King of Dale, provided Bard could prove his heritage. I don't think that would come close to one fourteenth of the whole, and Thorin could probably drag out the negotiations over specific items for years. Bard, of course, would have the disadvantage of a young mortal who was not alive when Smaug came, and did not have an inventory of his ancestor's possessions. In the end, very little would leave Thorin's clutches.
This raises a different question. What would Bilbo get? Would he get a fourteenth share? Could he demand it all, then give it all to Bard? Ah, so many scenarios play out when we play "what if?" But somehow I think Thorin will start scheming to keep Bilbo's fourteenth share as well, or most of it. Perhaps he will insist on sharing with Dain and all his men. I think Bilbo doubts Thorin's good faith at this point, which is why he doesn't simply wait to claim his share, but forces Thorin's hand with the Arkenstone.
2. Isn't ["Nothing that you or your friends have to offer"] an odd reply for Thorin to make out of the blue in the course of a normal conversation when he has no clue whatsover that the Arkenstone might be in the enemy's po[ss]ession?
This is always struck me as very odd phrasing on Tolkien's part & not at all realistic. What are your thoughts?
The Arkenstone isn't the only treasure in the world Thorin would gladly purchase. I'm sure there are others. And actually, it seems likely that the Elvenking would own one or two such treasures.
And what about food? Maybe that would interest Thorin. Maybe he's even thinking about that, and responds in this manner because he's ready to negotiate for some food, and ponies, and maybe some fuel for fires, and clothes and furs -- winter is coming, after all.
3. Is there any justification to Thorin calling his enemy theives without having a clue about where they even got the Arkenstone?
It does seem a bit premature, although for once he isn't far wrong.
4. Bilbo, Bilbo, Bilbo......
Why in the world does he up and confess to stealing the Arkenstone right then and there?
Wouldn't silence have been a better & safer way to proceed? Afterall, Bard & Co have the Arkenstone & does Thorin really need to know any more than that?
Bilbo is an honest Burglar. He never meant to hide what he had done.
5. Is this the final payoff for all the work Tolkien has put in for the Bilbo/burglar angle? How do you think Bilbo felt at this moment considering his original adversion to being called a burglar?
If Bilbo has any sense he's in fear for his life right now.
6. Tolkien refers to Thorin shaking Biblo 'like a rabbit'. Earlier, one of the trolls calls Bilbo 'a little rabbit'. Why does Tolkien seem to like to equate the hobbit to a rabbit? Why this partcular animal?
First of all, are we supposed to know what it is like to shake a rabbit? Do people shake rabbits? Maybe when they want to break their necks and skin them?
Somewhere in one of his letters Tolkien said hobbits are not rabbits, but they have some similarities. They do not normally fight, preferring to sneak about unseen, or hide in burrows, almost invisible without the benefit of magic. They like garden food, and they breed lots of children. They are small and cute with furry feet and heads. And if caught, they are vulnerable. "Bilbo" is to "Beorn" as "rabbit" is to "bear." We get some rabbit references in LotR, in Ithilien, where Gollum strangles some rabbits or "coneys," and there's a hint that he could do the same to Sam and Frodo if he chose.
7. Why does Gandalf refer to Bilbo as 'my Burglar' instead of 'The Hobbit', 'Bilbo' or 'Mr Baggins'?
Is it just a choice of words or might there be a reason behind his choice?
From Gandalf, this is a compliment. Bilbo has fulfilled Gandalf's expectations. It may also remind Thorin that he hired a burglar, and should not be shocked when he gets burgled. More likely it just redirects Thorin's anger from Bilbo to Gandalf, which may save Bilbo's life.
8. Does Bilbo really believe this after Thorin's rather clear instructions about the Arkenstone or is he just thinking on his feet, trying to get out of a tight jam?
Bilbo quite rightly believes that Thorin will give up a fourteenth share for the Arkenstone. It was never about stealing the Arkenstone, which is why Bilbo doesn't feel wicked, and sleeps well -- it was always about ensuring that Bilbo would get that fourteenth share, without delay, so he could give it to Bard.
9. Thorin capitulates & agrees to bring out 1/14 of the hoarde in silver & gold, setting aside the gems.
This gets no agruement at all from Bard & Company. Is Thorin right in doing this? Why wouldn't Bard & Co. complain about no gems? Is Thorin still scheming here by just wanting to keep the gems?
Thorin learned his lesson. The Arkenstone was a gem. He doesn't want any more misunderstandings, and the total value of the fourteenth share should still be the same, plus it will be easier to use in trade.
10. As Bilbo prepares to leave the mountain, several Dwarves feel shame & pity at his going, as opposed to Thorin, who is calling Bilbo a 'descendent of rats' & threatening to 'sting his feet' with arrows.
Who do you think has the right feelings towards Bilbo? Bombur, who feels ashamed & will miss Mr Baggins, Thorin who feels betrayed, or is the truth lying somewhere between?
This is quite nice of Bombur, when you consider that he's the one Bilbo deceived by taking his watch. Actually, the fact that several dwarves feel shame and pity indicates that a strong minority of dwarves are less greedy than Tolkien would have us believe -- but Thorin is not one of them, most of the dwarves back Thorin, and those who don't still obey their king and stay with their people. I wonder what Balin did or said. On the one hand, he was fond of Bilbo, but on the other, he's Thorin's second in command.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 15 2009, 2:22am
Post #3 of 24
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off and running!
1. What might have been expected to occur in the parley had this embassy simply been made because Dain had been discovered approaching? What would Bard and/or the Elvenking suggest or renegotiate? How about Thorin?
How about this: instead of sending the embassy to Thorin, they send it to Dain, negotiate a monetary settlement with him, take a couple of the more important Dwarves as their "guests" to be released when payment is made, and then let Dain and a small party pass along to Erebor.
And Bard gives up plans of re-building Dale because of the unruly neighbors he would have.
2. "Nothing that you or your friends have to offer": this means that there are some things for which Thorin would barter, but at present he believes they have nothing of value to him.
3. Is there any justification to Thorin calling his enemy thieves without having a clue about where they even got the Arkenstone?
Come to think of it...what made Thorin so sure the Arkenstone was actually in Erebor with Smaug? Some other Dwarf might have made off with it when the Dragon attacked! And over the years it got handed down or traded, until it ended up in Bard's hands.
Alternately: the Arkenstone might still have been attached to the Dragon's underbelly (but not in that one spot), and become loose as Smaug crashed onto the town, and fallen near Bard in the water, who retrieved it. Then whose stone would it be?
4. Bilbo, Bilbo, Bilbo......
What a nervous little Hobbit we have here, he's not thinking before blurting things out!
5. How do you think Bilbo felt at this moment considering his original aversion to being called a burglar?
Scared out of his wits, at first, since Thorin seems to be losing it - but he does sufficiently recover to put on his business airs once Gandalf intervenes.
6. Hobbits and rabbits!
In addition to Curious's findings, I'll add that at least one of their dwellings was considered "a regular warren", and that Bilbo wondered at one point if the Eagles would tear him up like a rabbit for supper.
I wonder if Hobbits have fluffy tails beneath those trousers...
7. Why does Gandalf refer to Bilbo as 'my Burglar' instead of 'The Hobbit', 'Bilbo' or 'Mr Baggins'?
Ah, our wizard is working a bit of psychology with that irate Dwarf, appealing to his sense of "value"! Rateliff (History of the Hobbit) gave me quite an eye-opener here. Originally Tolkien wrote "...please don't h[arm]...", then changed that word to "damage".
Rateliff writes: "This casts Bilbo in the role of Gandalf's property ('my burglar'), thus subtly enhancing his value in the treasure-smitten dwarf's eyes. Perhaps the implication is that Thorin might have killed a traitor, but in the grip of the dragon-sickness he would be unable to destroy anything of (monetary) value."
8. Does Bilbo really believe this after Thorin's rather clear instructions about the Arkenstone or is he just thinking on his feet, trying to get out of a tight jam?
I'll go with the jam, since Bilbo's in the midst of a rhubarb.
9. Gems!
As Curious noted, the gold is more useful for trading for needed supplies.
10. Shame and pity!
I think Thorin's gang is starting to get quite embarassed by their leader's actions!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Twit
Menegroth
Jul 15 2009, 11:51am
Post #4 of 24
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2. Isn't this an odd reply for Thorin to make out of the blue in the course of a normal conversation when he has no clue whatsover that the Arkenstone might be in the enemy's poession?
This is always struck me as very odd phrasing on Tolkien's part & not at all realistic. What are your thoughts?
No, to me it sounds right, it emphasises Thorin's utter refusal to see past the treasure, especially with his own personality traits being blown up out of all proportion by the lingering dragon-spell. Twice now he has (basically) refused food and help despite having limited supplies.
3. Is there any justification to Thorin calling his enemy theives without having a clue about where they even got the Arkenstone?
In reality, no, it could have been with Bard all along, how-ever with Thorin under the influence (as it were) he feels that as the Arkenstone was discovered in the mountain, it belonged to him (as heir). He doesn't feel as if he need ask a mere thief how he got it.
4. Bilbo, Bilbo, Bilbo......
Why in the world does he up and confess to stealing the Arkenstone right then and there?
Wouldn't silence have been a better & safer way to proceed? Afterall, Bard & Co have the Arkenstone & does Thorin really need to know any more than that?
Bilbo has to give himself up. If he hides now, he is telling us (children) that it is ok to lie and cover it up after. He has already done something that Isn't Quite Right, then tried to redeem himself by doing something brave and selfless. By cowering in a corner, he makes Bard either lie to cover for him, or tell the truth and as we all know, the truth is better coming from the source.
He shows us that even when he is (from Thorin's point of view certainly) Wrong, he is brave and honest after all. And that is Good.
5. Is this the final payoff for all the work Tolkien has put in for the Bilbo/burglar angle? How do you think Bilbo felt at this moment considering his original adversion to being called a burglar?
I think he agrees with him, although believes he was right, he expected the treatment and so gave himself up and took it like Hobbit.
6. Tolkien refers to Thorin shaking Biblo 'like a rabbit'. Earlier, one of the trolls calls Bilbo 'a little rabbit'. Why does Tolkien seem to like to equate the hobbit to a rabbit? Why this partcular animal?
For all the reasons others have said.
7. Why does Gandalf refer to Bilbo as 'my Burglar' instead of 'The Hobbit', 'Bilbo' or 'Mr Baggins'?
Is it just a choice of words or might there be a reason behind his choice?
I like the idea that it puts a price on Bilbo's head. And after all, Bilbo the burglar was Gandalf's idea in the first place.
8. Does Bilbo really believe this after Thorin's rather clear instructions about the Arkenstone or is he just thinking on his feet, trying to get out of a tight jam?
No, Bilbo knew deep down that the Arkenstone was not part of the deal, and yes he is thinking on his feet. So both really.
9. Thorin capitulates & agrees to bring out 1/14 of the hoarde in silver & gold, setting aside the gems.
This gets no agruement at all from Bard & Company. Is Thorin right in doing this? Why wouldn't Bard & Co. complain about no gems? Is Thorin still scheming here by just wanting to keep the gems?
I don't think they would complain about the gems, gold and silver is more useful. For some reason, to me it seems right that Dwarves would find more value in gems than in money.
10. As Bilbo prepares to leave the mountain, several Dwarves feel shame & pity at his going, as opposed to Thorin, who is calling Bilbo a 'descendent of rats' & threatening to 'sting his feet' with arrows.
Who do you think has the right feelings towards Bilbo? Bombur, who feels ashamed & will miss Mr Baggins, Thorin who feels betrayed, or is the truth lying somewhere between?
I think they are all right, they can only feel what they feel. Some may be more under the influence than others, so that might cloud their judgements I suppose, but my feelings are the dragon-spell emphasises traits and emotions as opposed to creating something that wasn't there to begin with.
(I hope I have made sense)
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jul 15 2009, 9:01pm
Post #5 of 24
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1. What might have been expected to occur in the parley had this embassy simply been made because Dain had been discovered approaching? What would Bard and/or the Elvenking suggest or renegotiate? How about Thorin?
Well, I think Thorin would expect Bard and the Elvenking to want to make a lesser deal as quickly as possible, and Thorin no doubt would now refuse to make any deal at all. However, I suspect that if Bard and the Elvenking were challenged they might actually be more inclined to fight than they were before. And in fact, that's what happens anyway.
2. Isn't this an odd reply for Thorin to make out of the blue in the course of a normal conversation when he has no clue whatsover that the Arkenstone might be in the enemy's poession?
This is always struck me as very odd phrasing on Tolkien's part & not at all realistic. What are your thoughts?
Bard's question seems a bit odd, perhaps. What could he possibly have in that casket to bargain with? It obviously never crosses Thorin's mind that Bard's companion may be bringing the one thing he really wants.
3. Is there any justification to Thorin calling his enemy theives without having a clue about where they even got the Arkenstone?
As far as Thorin is concerned, the Arkenstone is his. Therefore anyone else who has it is a thief.
4. Bilbo, Bilbo, Bilbo......
Why in the world does he up and confess to stealing the Arkenstone right then and there?
Wouldn't silence have been a better & safer way to proceed? Afterall, Bard & Co have the Arkenstone & does Thorin really need to know any more than that?
Why in the world did he go back to the dwarves at all? Because he takes responsibility for what he's done. He made his decision for the good of the dwarves as he saw it, and now he has to let them judge him. Otherwise he really would be just a thief and a traitor. And several dwarves do seem to understand that he was trying to do his best for them. Even as he's thrown out, Bilbo says that he hopes they will meet again as friends - which is of course what happens in the long run.
5. Is this the final payoff for all the work Tolkien has put in for the Bilbo/burglar angle? How do you think Bilbo felt at this moment considering his original adversion to being called a burglar?
'Burglar' was always a pretty low-grade job description. Now it's being used as an insult!
6. Tolkien refers to Thorin shaking Biblo 'like a rabbit'. Earlier, one of the trolls calls Bilbo 'a little rabbit'. Why does Tolkien seem to like to equate the hobbit to a rabbit? Why this partcular animal?
Besides what everyone else has said, there is the similarity in the sound of the words. Tolkien apparently made up the word 'hobbit' (although it seems not to have been completely unknown before), and perhaps as he put what he thought was a new suffix onto the old word 'hob' (a folk name for a mischievous Puck-like creature) he was subconsciously influenced by the sound of the word 'rabbit' - expecially as his new word came to him in a sentence that described its rabbit-like habitat - "a hole in the ground".
7. Why does Gandalf refer to Bilbo as 'my Burglar' instead of 'The Hobbit', 'Bilbo' or 'Mr Baggins'?
Is it just a choice of words or might there be a reason behind his choice?
Gandalf is using the business-speak that he knows Thorin understands. Gandalf provided the burglar in a business arrangement, and now he's making sure his property is not damaged. He's not going to get into arguments based on honour, or mercy, or fairness. A straight business transaction is far easier to understand.
8. Does Bilbo really believe this after Thorin's rather clear instructions about the Arkenstone or is he just thinking on his feet, trying to get out of a tight jam?
He knows perfectly well that the Arkenstone is not equivalent to his fourteenth share. He's known this since he first took it: '"They did say I could pick and choose my own share; and I think I would choose this, if they took all the rest!” All the same he had an uncomfortable feeling that the picking and choosing had not really been meant to include this marvellous gem, and that trouble would yet come of it.' So he doesn't need to think on his feet - he's had that argument at the back of his mind all the time - and yet he knows it's not a good enough excuse.
9. Thorin capitulates & agrees to bring out 1/14 of the hoarde in silver & gold, setting aside the gems.
This gets no agruement at all from Bard & Company. Is Thorin right in doing this? Why wouldn't Bard & Co. complain about no gems? Is Thorin still scheming here by just wanting to keep the gems?
I think he's driving a hard bargain still. Considering how much store he sets by the Arkenstone, I think the Men and Elves could have pushed for more than a fourteenth share. But they accept a fourteenth share minus the gems, which suggests that they only want enough to cover their costs, as they say, and are not profiteering.
10. As Bilbo prepares to leave the mountain, several Dwarves feel shame & pity at his going, as opposed to Thorin, who is calling Bilbo a 'descendent of rats' & threatening to 'sting his feet' with arrows.
Who do you think has the right feelings towards Bilbo? Bombur, who feels ashamed & will miss Mr Baggins, Thorin who feels betrayed, or is the truth lying somewhere between?
My sympathies are all with Bombur. The dwarves who feel pity and shame are the ones with true and noble feelings, I believe. Thorin has allowed his Arkenstone-lust to corrupt his nobility, and (like Boromir) he will only be redeemed by his death.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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sador
Gondolin
Jul 15 2009, 9:21pm
Post #6 of 24
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What basis do you have for thinking this?
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This raises a different question. What would Bilbo get? Would he get a fourteenth share? Could he demand it all, then give it all to Bard? Ah, so many scenarios play out when we play "what if?" But somehow I think Thorin will start scheming to keep Bilbo's fourteenth share as well, or most of it. Perhaps he will insist on sharing with Dain and all his men. I think Bilbo doubts Thorin's good faith at this point, which is why he doesn't simply wait to claim his share, but forces Thorin's hand with the Arkenstone.
After finding out he was betrayed, Thorin considers Bilbo to have forfeited his claim to the treasure, and sees the fourteenth part to be given Bard as a ransom; which would justify trying to sieze it back.
But before this - is there any reason to suspect him of such scheming? Yes, I know Smaug said so - but didn't Tolkien deny his insinuations? Who should we believe - the narrator, or Smaug?
But if you are merely saying that Bilbo doubts Thorin's good faith, you might have a point. Although it is more likely to be a rationalisation after the fact of his own picking the Arkenstone, than having any basis in Thorin's words or actions.
"Let us hope still for something that will bring reconciliation." - the Elvenking.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 15 2009, 11:02pm
Post #7 of 24
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The dragon gold has corrupted Thorin. You may feel manipulated and not like it, but I think we both agree that the narrator has said it. Smaug's prediction has come true, in large part because of Smaug's taint. And the Elvenking, for one, is quite aware of what is happening, because he has seen it happen before. That's why he is not inclined to retreat to his forest and trust to Thorin's good will.
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Jul 16 2009, 1:27am
Post #8 of 24
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1. What might have been expected to occur in the parley had this embassy simply been made because Dain had been discovered approaching?
With no Arkenstone as a bargaining tool, I doubt Bard and Co. would have attempted a parley simply because Dain's entrance was imminent. No, I suppose they might have spent the time preparing for a battle.
What would Bard and/or the Elvenking suggest or renegotiate?
but...if they had attempted one...maybe they would have tried to appeal to Thorin's sense of logic...
How about Thorin?
nah...he already gave them an answer!
2. Isn't this an odd reply for Thorin to make out of the blue in the course of a normal conversation when he has no clue whatsover that the Arkenstone might be in the enemy's poession?
This is always struck me as very odd phrasing on Tolkien's part & not at all realistic. What are your thoughts?
Dang! Hard head>>>Thorin seems to not even consider that someone else might have anything he may value.
3. Is there any justification to Thorin calling his enemy theives without having a clue about where they even got the Arkenstone?
The *means* of this is irrelevent. It's the *end*. See Thorin's words: "my father's"; "mine"; "my own" ; and "my house". Possessed by possession??? (reminds me of similar comments later made by Frodo, Gollum, and Denethor)
4. Bilbo, Bilbo, Bilbo......
Why in the world does he up and confess to stealing the Arkenstone right then and there?
Wouldn't silence have been a better & safer way to proceed? Afterall, Bard & Co have the Arkenstone & does Thorin really need to know any more than that?
Safer, certainly. He could have avoided being shook about like a rabbit in the jaws of a hungry dog! Anyhoo--I'm impressed with Bilbo here--again. Takes a lot of grit to offer up the truth--especially when you've not even been questioned. And yes, Thorin (and the audience) needed to see this great example of courage.
7. Why does Gandalf refer to Bilbo as 'my Burglar' instead of 'The Hobbit', 'Bilbo' or 'Mr Baggins'?
Is it just a choice of words or might there be a reason behind his choice?
Hmmmm...back to the "M" word. You feel protective of your stone, I feel protective of "my" burglar---back up, Barney!
10. As Bilbo prepares to leave the mountain, several Dwarves feel shame & pity at his going, as opposed to Thorin, who is calling Bilbo a 'descendent of rats' & threatening to 'sting his feet' with arrows.
Who do you think has the right feelings towards Bilbo? Bombur, who feels ashamed & will miss Mr Baggins, Thorin who feels betrayed, or is the truth lying somewhere between?
Thorin is a bit possessed and alot pi**ed. I'm not going to judge his feelings as wrong/inappropriate. I suppose he expected that Bilbo would be on *his side* in this matter (although I don't recall this being in the contract) and is feeling let down>>>disappointed>>>betrayed. Bombur and Dori and Balin have probably formed more of a "buddy" relationship with Bilbo. Do the others feel shame over Thorin's actions, or Bilbo's?
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sador
Gondolin
Jul 16 2009, 6:04am
Post #9 of 24
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Of not honouring his own word?
Thorin may have been miserly reluctant, to give Bard what we feel is his due (and I think he has excellent legal excuses for this), but revoking his own promise about paying Bilbo is a bit far-stretched.
And when Smaug insinuates this, the narrator contradicts him with strong words.
Of course, you might say the narrator contradicted Smaug only before Thorin actually saw the treasure, and once he did he would prove Smaug's words true; but isn't that the sort of theorising you dislike in others?
"Let us hope still for something that will bring reconciliation." - the Elvenking.
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sador
Gondolin
Jul 16 2009, 10:10am
Post #10 of 24
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I've tried to pattern the questions on the types of things I've seen others doing week after week, so hopefully, it works out OK.
Wrong! Do you own stuff - it's good enough!
I'm not asking you folks to compare the Arkenstone to other gems in Middle-earth like the Nauglimir & Silmarils as I'm sure it's been done.
The Silmarils were, I think. The Nauglamir hasn't yet; perhaps in the next thread (which I haven't read yet)?
There is also the question of the hoard of Scatha the worm. The whole of Dale and Erebor's history needs to be considered in this light. I suppose Michael Martinez did it sometime; I need to check.
1. What might have been expected to occur in the parley had this embassy simply been made because Dain had been discovered approaching? What would Bard and/or the Elvenking suggest or renegotiate?
Actually, the arriving of Dain can work both ways. They might offer recognition of Thorin as King under the Mountain, and free passage for his subjects.
I suspect Thorin was actually more galled by everyone coming to take his inheritance assuming he was dead, than by the prospect of sharing the treasure.
How about Thorin?
What about a project to recolonize Dale? Dale is dependant on the Mountain to an extent, being strategically vulnerable. Remember that was what Bard first thought of, before he started thinking of his cut of the treasure.
Even more - the people of Esgaroth have proclaimed Bard king, despite his having nothing to be king of - Girion was only lord of Dale; and one wonders under whom (Eorl was lord of the Eotheod until Cirdan allowed him to take the title of king). There is a lot Thorin could offer (once he rules a numerous folk, rather than the thirteen he has at his disposal at the moment) to people who want to coexist in peace with him, even without paying anything more than what he clearly owes - payment for hospitality and the proven heirlooms of Girion's house (which I estimate as far, far below a fourteenth share).
Even more than that, what of artisans and labourers? In 'Many Meetings', Gloin took pride in the waterways of Dale - Beren IV noted the brilliance of the speedy building of the wall before the Front Gate. And let's be reasonable: rebuilding Dale could be postponed for a couple of years, but what of all the poor Lake-men bereft of homes, with winter setting in? Shouldn't their leaders be more worried about finding the most skilled and hardy people around to build them shelters, rather than bickering over treasure? Even had Bard won the whole hoard - will the people eat the gold; or shelter from wind, rain and whatever under piles of silver?
2. Isn't this an odd reply for Thorin to make out of the blue in the course of a normal conversation when he has no clue whatsover that the Arkenstone might be in the enemy's poession?
Not odd, but quite untrue, as I pointed out.
Unless "have to offer" means "are willing to offer".
This is always struck me as very odd phrasing on Tolkien's part & not at all realistic. What are your thoughts?
Why not realistic? I think it is natural enough.
Yes, Thorin is haughty, and clueless about the Arkenstone*, but he realizes there are stronger forces than him in the world. He's probably refering to the military force arrayed against him, in what is now called by the charming name "trash talk".
* Although I wonder - why didn't Thorin have a nagging doubt that Smaug might have carried it on his body when swooping upon Lake-town? Was there any prophecy about its never leaving the Mountain?
This would reinforce my speculation (in this thread; see especially Dreamdeer's response) about the Arkenstone being actually a holy object in dwarvish religion or culture, while explaining why it wasn't saved when the Mountain was first sacked by Smaug.
3. Is there any justification to Thorin calling his enemy theives without having a clue about where they even got the Arkenstone?
Well, they started it, with asking him why does he sit like a robber in his hole...
But you know - I think there is a different term to people who make a profit out of selling robbed objects back to their owners. Isn't this just what they are doing?
So yeah, I guess you're right. I suppose Thorin can excuse himself by the shock he is, so he can't think clearly and find the correct term.
Why in the world does he up and confess to stealing the Arkenstone right then and there?
He believes in Gandalf, and takes his word last chapter about his being likely to survive despite some unspecified further unpleasantness, as a reassurance Thorin won't hurt him now.
This also answers weaver's question last week how he could sleep so soundly; Gandalf has returned!
Wouldn't silence have been a better & safer way to proceed?
Bombur might figure things out, get a fit of conscience and confess to changing the guard duty with him.
And anyway, we discussed before the allure of the campfires, warmth, more varied food, grass, mirth, the company of elves (and Gandalf).
Even if we are charitable to Bilbo, and think these had nothing to do with tempting him to giving the Arkenstone - won't he prefer that to staying in the Mountain during the siege?
Afterall, Bard & Co have the Arkenstone & does Thorin really need to know any more than that?
Of course Thorin needs to know! I suppose you meant to ask whether anyone needs to tell him.
But if (as Curious repeatedly points out), a major part of Bilbo's offer is surrendering his claim to one fourteenth of the treasure - he needs to come out in the open.
5. Is this the final payoff for all the work Tolkien has put in for the Bilbo/burglar angle?
Nice thought!
How do you think Bilbo felt at this moment considering his original adversion to being called a burglar?
Bilbo in his right mind would dislike this title; but as early as the first chapter, he seemed to prefer 'burglar' to 'grocer'. See questions H to J in squire's discussion, and Curious' response to them which was really interesting (I hope you will also like mine, if you bother to read it  ; but Curious' is the more essential reading).
6. Tolkien refers to Thorin shaking Biblo 'like a rabbit'. Earlier, one of the trolls calls Bilbo 'a little rabbit'. Why does Tolkien seem to like to equate the hobbit to a rabbit? Why this partcular animal?
This was discussed often. Dernwyn summed it up excellently.
7. Why does Gandalf refer to Bilbo as 'my Burglar' instead of 'The Hobbit', 'Bilbo' or 'Mr Baggins'?
Is it just a choice of words or might there be a reason behind his choice?
Wizards always have reasons for anything they do; just like they are never early or late.
The truth is, that despite Gandalf's repeatedly telling Thorin this was not his quest in the first chapters, it clearly was. It had to so with his grand strategy, and great amusement; so he sent Thorin off on just the type of adventure he would be out of his depth (Thorin always thought heroically about killing Smaug, and not of stealing treasure) and foisted Bilbo upon him.
And Gandalf's convoluted strategy worked! If he could find nobody to kill Smaug, he found someone to arouse him into attacking the place in which he could get killed; so now the North was free!
By the way, this leads to the conclusion that Bilbo's criticism (in 'Inside Information') that the dwarves haven't thought about how to get rid of Smaug, is both unfair and untrue. Thorin did think about it, and quite a lot - but as there was simply no answer to this problem he never set out. It was Gandalf who prompted him into setting out without having thought of a solution to this problem - and once we come to think of it, he did a similar thing with Frodo in LotR!
8. Does Bilbo really believe this after Thorin's rather clear instructions about the Arkenstone or is he just thinking on his feet, trying to get out of a tight jam?
He has been using this to justify taking the Arkenstone to himself all along.
Everyone who does things they feel uncomfortable with does so (as I know from personal experience  ). It is very much to Bilbo's credit that he still feels uncomfortable with it.
9. Thorin capitulates & agrees to bring out 1/14 of the hoard in silver & gold, setting aside the gems.
This gets no agruement at all from Bard & Company. Is Thorin right in doing this?
It's reasonable. Bard and co. really had no idea how much they are owed (neither has Thorin, of course), and paying with Bilbo's share seems only fair, as it wasn't promised to anyone and he seems to have forfeited it, hasn't he? That is also what Bilbo himself offered.
As I have said before - if all the other dwarves were each promised one fourteenth of the treasure, this is the most Thorin can give without taking from his companions.
Why wouldn't Bard & Co. complain about no gems?
Well, Bilbo was offered "cash on delivery". Delivery hasn't really come yet, as long as Thorin is not undisputed king and owner of the treasure, but that did not include gems.
And if (as Curious argued in answer 4) setting aside the gems does not set aside their worth - they might see no reason to complain.
Is Thorin still scheming here by just wanting to keep the gems?
Possibly. But note that Dain scruplously fulfills the agreement between Thorin and Bard (even though it was only an offer, and was never formally agreed), but does give Bard the emeralds of Girion.
I suppsose gems, and other obvious heirlooms, would be given to their original owners anyway.
10. Who do you think has the right feelings towards Bilbo? Bombur, who feels ashamed & will miss Mr Baggins, Thorin who feels betrayed, or is the truth lying somewhere between?
Thorin is right in feeling betrayed, but we are clearly supposed to feel that Bilbo deserved far better than he got. And he did, after all he did for them.
It's nice noticing some dwarves do feel shame and pity, rather than wrath (even if the wrath is just); it makes them human.
However, I do not think Bombur is one who feels sorry for Bilbo. Bombur is probably beginning to realise how he was tricked, and if he feels shame it is a shame for his betraying the duty he was bound to, and his pity is surely self-pity - after all, he will stay in the cold corridors of the Mountain, while Bilbo is going to eat and drink to heart's content among friends!
Who does? Well, Dwalin and Dori were considerate towards Bilbo early in the journey, although Dori might feel betrayed personally, not just like a porter (which he said in 'Out of the Frying-pan Into the Fire'), but like a proter who was betrayed; and Dwalin was critical of Bilbo doing his job in 'On the Doorstep'.
Balin feels friendly towards Bilbo, but he was the most patronising and insulting of the Burglar (before Thorin came), and seems quite likely to be the type which hardens his heart.
I would vote for Fili and Kili as the youngest (although they also will have mixed feeling), and for Nori and Bifur as the two dwarves which have shown compassion and caring before (Nori in 'Out of the Frying-pan Into the Fire', and Bifur in 'Inside Information') - and I do not mean this to suppost carrioncrow's suggestion they were female, for all Carol Gilligan's "Ethics of Caring" theories!
"Let us hope still for something that will bring reconciliation." - the Elvenking.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 16 2009, 2:13pm
Post #11 of 24
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And when Smaug insinuates this, the narrator contradicts him with strong words.
Can you give me a cite?
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sador
Gondolin
Jul 16 2009, 2:24pm
Post #12 of 24
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Well, perhaps not directly contradicts
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But five paragraphs after Smaug says:
Well, that's just like them. And I suppose they are skulking outside, and your job is to do all the dangerous work and get what you can when I'm not looking—for them? And you will get a fair share? Don't you believe it! If you get off alive, you will be lucky. The author comments (on the much smaller insinuation, of the treasure-removing problem):
You will hardly believe it, but poor Bilbo was really very taken aback... He had never bothered to wonder how the treasure was to be removed, certainly never how any part of it that might fall to his share was to be brought back all the way to Bag-End Under-Hill.
Now a nasty suspicion began to grow in his mind—had the dwarves forgotten this important point too, or were they laughing in their sleeves at him all the time? That is the effect that dragon-talk has on the inexperienced. Bilbo of course ought to have been on his guard; but Smaug had rather an overwhelming personality.
So Bilbo ought to have been on his guard against suspecting the dwarves of pulling such tricks on him; but the narrator hurries to excuse him, by refering to the dragon's overwhelming personality.
"Let us hope still for something that will bring reconciliation." - the Elvenking.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 16 2009, 2:40pm
Post #13 of 24
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This is exactly the effect that dragon taint has on people,
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even after the dragon is gone. It is the effect it is having on Thorin now. He has grown suspicious, and if left to his own devices he will look for a reason to keep the treasure himself and blame everyone else for it. He will accuse Bilbo of betraying him, or he will bring in other dwarves and cut down on the "profits," or he will simply delay paying out the treasure for one reason or another. He may not violate the technical parameters of his agreement with Bilbo -- which, as Smaug rightly notes, was very short on details -- but he will not be generous and he will be difficult. Fortunately, the attack of the goblins and subsequent fight brings Thorin back to his senses.
Thorin was not laughing up his sleeve at Bilbo during the adventure. But the dragon-tainted gold has an effect on him just as Smaug had an effect on Bilbo, and Thorin grows suspicious and difficult. Bilbo overcomes the effect when he freely gives away all of his reward in an attempt to maintain peace. Thorin also overcomes the effect and makes peace with Bilbo before he dies. Generosity is the cure for dragon taint.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jul 16 2009, 9:07pm
Post #14 of 24
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...I do believe that something noble within Thorin is fighting the dragon-spell, that he is inherently a good dwarf, that part of him does want to extend charity to Bard's people and struggles to keep the door open to that. And Gandalf evidently has hope of Thorin's better part winning, or he wouldn't bother rebuking him by telling him that he's not getting off to a good start as King. Why rebuke a mere puppet of evil? It reminds me of Gandalf's harsh words to Bilbo in "The Fellowship of the Ring" that he later describes as Bilbo needing "all the help that I could give him" to get Bilbo to break free of the Ring's spell.
Something in Thorin fights. And Gandalf tries to help that part. And in the end it wins.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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squire
Gondolin
Jul 17 2009, 6:41pm
Post #15 of 24
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I thought there was to be no math
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1. What might have been expected to occur in the parley had this embassy simply been made because Dain had been discovered approaching? What would Bard and/or the Elvenking suggest or renegotiate? How about Thorin?
I’m sorry, but I don’t find this “what-if” question interesting. Here’s why: 1) I think we’re all having enough difficulty figuring out the various motivations and reasons for what does happen in the story. Tolkien is freely mixing up fairy-tale conventions with his knowledge of realistic medieval conflicts and war-customs. Some of what’s going on “makes sense” to us, but other parts do not seem to stand up to logical analysis. But at least we have the text to refer to, whereas we don’t even have that when we begin the what-ifs. 2) I’m getting bored – have always gotten bored – with this part of the story. There’s too much plot for what the pay-off will be. I think Tolkien got interested in writing this little morality play about treasure and forgot that the only thing that really needs to happen is for Bilbo to go home.
There’s a clever bit of time-shifting and stream-of-consciousness in Thorin’s first remarks in this chapter. He speaks his thoughts deep in his stronghold when the other dwarves tell him what the messenger said, and in the same breath he is suddenly up on the wall and calling down his answer to the messenger! I don’t think I’ve seen Tolkien write that way anywhere else in his works.
I’d like to note that in this third exchange, Bard & Co. (excellent abbreviation, TF!) follow Thorin’s instructions exactly, except for the departure of the Elves: the delegation puts down its weapons (sword and spear) before approaching. This might be an additional argument that, by contrast, the second delegation (the guy with the shield) was carrying its arms right up to the foot of the wall, as I advocated in a previous discussion.
2. Isn't this an odd reply for Thorin to make out of the blue in the course of a normal conversation when he has no clue whatsover that the Arkenstone might be in the enemy's poession?
This is always struck me as very odd phrasing on Tolkien's part & not at all realistic. What are your thoughts?
I read this to mean that Thorin’s mind is on the Arkenstone, even as he parleys. Yet so obsessed is he that he does not make the connection between their question and his instinctive answer. A nice psychological insight, and perfect as a build-up to the big surprise.
3. Is there any justification to Thorin calling his enemy thieves without having a clue about where they even got the Arkenstone?
Others have pointed out that Thorin cannot imagine the Arkenstone belonging by right to anyone but him.
I don’t like the idea of the Arkenstone outshining the sun. Somehow I believe it magically generates its own light (like stars) in the darkness, more easily than I believe its own white light leaps from Gandalf’s hand in broad sunlight. (I don’t think the passage as written means that the gem is just refracting the sunlight, which would certainly make more sense).
4. Why in the world does [Bilbo] up and confess to stealing the Arkenstone right then and there?
Wouldn't silence have been a better & safer way to proceed? After all, Bard & Co have the Arkenstone & does Thorin really need to know any more than that?
Along with the obvious integrity the hobbit shows, mightn’t he fear that Bard & Co. will tell Thorin that they got the stone from Bilbo? You feel like less of a liar if you confess to the lie before someone else exposes you.
5. Is this the final payoff for all the work Tolkien has put in for the Bilbo/burglar angle? How do you think Bilbo felt at this moment considering his original adversion to being called a burglar?
I think this is a nice reference all the way back to the moment in Bag End that you mention. Thorin, reaching into his knowledge of Mr. Baggins and what will sting him, finally realizes that “burglar” is an insult, after having used it as a casual term of employment for so long.
6. Tolkien refers to Thorin shaking Biblo 'like a rabbit'. Earlier, one of the trolls calls Bilbo 'a little rabbit'. Why does Tolkien seem to like to equate the hobbit to a rabbit? Why this particular animal?
Good answers from everybody. It wouldn’t read nearly so well if Thorin shook Bilbo ‘like a badger’, as Lewis & Currie might have it.
7. Why does Gandalf refer to Bilbo as 'my Burglar' instead of 'The Hobbit', 'Bilbo' or 'Mr Baggins'?
Is it just a choice of words or might there be a reason behind his choice?
Again, well answered already.
But I would like to know who among the Dwarves could not recognize the “old man” as Gandalf just because he was wearing a hood – starting with the long white beard down below his waist. And why does Gandalf indulge in the melodramatic device of appearing in disguise in the first place?
What does he mean by “none too soon”? That he took off his hood just in time? Or that he showed up in Bard’s camp a day or more ago (yet didn’t immediately go visit Thorin and straighten the paranoid fool out)? Does it not occur to Gandalf that Thorin could well have thrown Bilbo to his death before the wizard could say “Stay! etc.”, drop the casket, and unmask and uncloak himself? It’s a good dramatic scene, but it reeks of cheap Victorian staging.
Likewise, what is the safety in putting the Arkenstone in a “strong” casket that one old man can carry? An ambitious Elf or Man of the Lake could make off with such a casket just as fast as he could have with the gem itself.
8. Does Bilbo really believe this after Thorin's rather clear instructions about the Arkenstone or is he just thinking on his feet, trying to get out of a tight jam?
Bilbo is really mad (in his understated British way) at the “rats” remark. I like Bilbo’s response: unsubtle digs at Thorin’s integrity (“dwarves are sometimes politer in word than in deed”; “Is this all the service of you and your family that I was promised”). Thorin almost instantly calms from rage to grimness, and that might be as much due to the sharpness of Bilbo’s retorts as the logic of his contractual claim.
9. Thorin capitulates & agrees to bring out 1/14 of the hoard in silver & gold, setting aside the gems.
This gets no argument at all from Bard & Company. Is Thorin right in doing this? Why wouldn't Bard & Co. complain about no gems? Is Thorin still scheming here by just wanting to keep the gems?
Hmm. How did Bard hear Thorin say “That shall follow after” to the hobbit, when earlier Thorin is shown addressing the delegation separately from his interchanges with Bilbo (“Then he turned and spoke over the wall”).
Now, I think it’s interesting that everyone assumes that Thorin will be honest in dividing up the treasure. Why does Bard accept an offer to have the 1/14 delivered over the wall, rather than under terms of a negotiated inspection of the whole?
More importantly, why does Bard not realize that if the Arkenstone, which is itself part of the hoard, is by Thorin’s proclaimed agreement now worth 1/14th of the whole value of the treasure, then Bilbo is owed not 1/14th of the value of the remaining gold, silver & gems except the Arkenstone, but rather 1/13th? And taking Curious’ interpretation that Bilbo’s reward is his fraction of the entire value including gems, but delivered only from the metals portion of the hoard, Bilbo’s (or Bard & Co.’s) fraction of the gold and silver inside the cave is rather larger even than 1/13th of the metals, depending on the proportion of the gems in the valuation of the whole.
Furthermore, Bard rashly doesn’t remind Thorin of Bilbo’s acknowledgement that his reward was from the net profits, not the gross – a sure invitation to further strife when that little problem is finally remembered by Balin or whoever the dwarves’ accountant is. Honesty is always the best policy, especially when the written contract is still in existence.
Well, if I were Bard, I’d want my lawyer in that cave immediately, equipped with a bright lantern or three, a good scale, a loupe, and an abacus that can do prime fractions – and as much time as needed to get it right the first time, since Thorin would certainly not re-open the negotiation later on. None of this “by noon tomorrow, without deceit” stuff. Hey Bard, how would you know if there was deceit without seeing the original pile, huh?
10. As Bilbo prepares to leave the mountain, several Dwarves feel shame & pity at his going, as opposed to Thorin, who is calling Bilbo a 'descendent of rats' & threatening to 'sting his feet' with arrows.
Who do you think has the right feelings towards Bilbo? Bombur, who feels ashamed & will miss Mr Baggins, Thorin who feels betrayed, or is the truth lying somewhere between?
I’m not sure Bombur is singled out here. But certainly it’s interesting that the other dwarves are not all caught up in Thorin’s dragon-spell, even though earlier Tolkien tends to describe dwarves’ attitudes towards treasure and bargains in collective terms. This way of putting it singles Thorin out as the villain of the piece (I mean this entire morality play that prolongs the book), since we can imagine as much as we like than our favorite dwarf (so to speak) is among the “more than one” who take Bilbo’s part. Is this the inevitable result of starting with 13 comic dwarves as mere foils for the hobbit’s adventures, and then switching the focus to them at the end?
I propose another bit of rewriting that Tolkien somehow neglected: the eerie willingness with which Thorin dismisses Bilbo’s mail coat simply as valuable for its dwarven-craft, and by no means counting towards his 1/14 share. For one thing, Thorin in the giving explicitly called it Bilbo’s first payment of his share. More comically, of course, in The Lord of the Rings it is quietly transformed into a “mithril” treasure that is worth the entire value of the Shire, which is hardly chickenfeed even to the Dwarves.
Finally, why do the Elves not set a few archers near the dwarves’ gate, and shoot down all the ravens that come and go?
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sador
Gondolin
Jul 19 2009, 8:29am
Post #16 of 24
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Thank you - I never thought of that!
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Bilbo is really mad (in his understated British way) at the “rats” remark. I like Bilbo’s response: unsubtle digs at Thorin’s integrity (“dwarves are sometimes politer in word than in deed”; “Is this all the service of you and your family that I was promised”). Thorin almost instantly calms from rage to grimness, and that might be as much due to the sharpness of Bilbo’s retorts as the logic of his contractual claim. A few more comments about your answers.
1) I think we’re all having enough difficulty figuring out the various motivations and reasons for what does happen in the story. Tolkien is freely mixing up fairy-tale conventions with his knowledge of realistic medieval conflicts and war-customs. Some of what’s going on “makes sense” to us, but other parts do not seem to stand up to logical analysis. But at least we have the text to refer to, whereas we don’t even have that when we begin the what-ifs.
I perfectly agree. But I think TolkienForever asked the question in the wrong way. "What might have been expected in a parley had..." is really quite convoluted; but asking how would Bard react to Dain's dwarves if not for Bilbo's intervention, and what might Thorin offer in a parley are both excellent question, bearing as they are on both Thorin's and Bilbo's motives.
But these question would have belonged more properly in weaver's discussion last week.
2) I’m getting bored – have always gotten bored – with this part of the story. There’s too much plot for what the pay-off will be. I think Tolkien got interested in writing this little morality play about treasure and forgot that the only thing that really needs to happen is for Bilbo to go home.
Curious posted a poll; on this question. It would be interesting to see what answers he will get.
I’d like to note that in this third exchange, Bard & Co. (excellent abbreviation, TF!) follow Thorin’s instructions exactly, except for the departure of the Elves: the delegation puts down its weapons (sword and spear) before approaching.
True. But what do you think of Bard's phrasing, whether Thorin is still of the same mind? Is it normal, or provocative? Do you think Thorin was more provoked by the presence of the Elvenking - or to the contrary, would a less provoking statement made him amenable to the elves' presence?
Well, if I were Bard, I’d want my lawyer in that cave immediately, equipped with a bright lantern or three, a good scale, a loupe, and an abacus that can do prime fractions – and as much time as needed to get it right the first time, since Thorin would certainly not re-open the negotiation later on. None of this “by noon tomorrow, without deceit” stuff. Hey Bard, how would you know if there was deceit without seeing the original pile, huh?
I agree Tolkien assumed an unrealistic amount of mutual trust. He seems to have simply forgotten old lore:
Only trust an elf or dwarf/ as far as you can throw them.
But as a matter of fact, even sorting such a hoard in a day is quite impossible - and evaluating the gems and artifacts (Thror's great cup, for instance, must be worth far more than its weight in gold) makes this even more complicated. And who will Bard trust in this? The only person around who seems to have the professional skills is the Master of Lake-town, and how much could Bard trust him?
I guess my suggestion, that the obvious heirlooms would be restored first to their respective owners would simplify matters, as it would also resolve the need of evaluating special craftsmanship and magic - but it does not seem to be really in line with Bilbo's contract (although it is with Thorin's "setting gems aside"; and once Bard agreed to that - is the original contract still binding?).
On the other hand - note that Thorin also accepted Bard's claim for being the heir of Girion without a murmur - what was his lawyer about? Or did he trust Roac to that extent?
This way of putting it singles Thorin out as the villain of the piece (I mean this entire morality play that prolongs the book), since we can imagine as much as we like than our favorite dwarf (so to speak) is among the “more than one” who take Bilbo’s part.
Yes, we see that with some people each time rushing to assume Balin is a silent opposition to Thorin, which is completely unwarranted except for his being said to be fond of Bilbo.
And my impression from the little I read, is that this was more pronounced in the previous discussion.
I propose another bit of rewriting that Tolkien somehow neglected: the eerie willingness with which Thorin dismisses Bilbo’s mail coat simply as valuable for its dwarven-craft, and by no means counting towards his 1/14 share. For one thing, Thorin in the giving explicitly called it Bilbo’s first payment of his share. More comically, of course, in The Lord of the Rings it is quietly transformed into a “mithril” treasure that is worth the entire value of the Shire, which is hardly chickenfeed even to the Dwarves.
When discussing 'Not at Home' I asked (question 12) whether the mithril-coat was really intended as a part of Bilbo's share, or as a gift; I guess Thorin sees it as a royal gift, which is not revoked. As neither Tolkien nor Thorin forgot the coat at the time (silly phrase, isn't it?), I think that is the answer.
"Let us hope still for something that will bring reconciliation." - the Elvenking.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jul 21 2009, 12:45am
Post #17 of 24
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On Bard's side, I don't think he even expects to get 1/14 of a share. As quickly as he settled, I suspect that he's not going to be too precise, so long as the cash covers Laketown's needs. I think Thorin knows this.
On Thorin's side, accepting Bard's claim of kingship, does it really matter whether or not Bard can prove it? Right now he's got an army behind him, and that's the only proof that any king has ever needed, especially in a patrilinear society without DNA testing.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jul 21 2009, 9:23am
Post #18 of 24
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Great start, Tolkien Forever :D
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One thing I've discovered here, there's really no way of doing these posts "wrong". Diversity is the name of the game :D
What would Bard and/or the Elvenking suggest or renegotiate?
My first thought was that in Thorin's inflated state of mind, he probably would think that Bard and Thranduil would be so overwhelmed at the prospect of facing such a beaudacious hoard of dwarves, they'd want to back off and try to parlay for pocket change and plead for their lives!
For Thorin to be skewered through the heart when realizing the "enemy" has his precious broke his brain!
Why in the world does he up and confess to stealing the Arkenstone right then and there?
Isn't that incredible!? This threw me for a loop as much as when Bilbo showed up at Bard's camp and gave over the Stone and THEN for Gandalf to appear! There were so many twists and turns of unexpected courage and integrity by Bilbo, it really does make him a most incredible hobbit AND individual.
I think he had his mind so set on bringing all of this turmoil to an end, he was determined to come forward and finish the job. I wonder if Balin or the other dwarves would have let Thorin go through with his hobbit tossing? Thank Goodness for Gandalf!
7. Why does Gandalf refer to Bilbo as 'my Burglar' instead of 'The Hobbit', 'Bilbo' or 'Mr Baggins'?
Is it just a choice of words or might there be a reason behind his choice?
*snigger* I think Gandalf was bringing it back around to when Bilbo was hired on as Burglar. It's almost like they're all standing in the darkened rooms of Bag End again. I also think it's a form of endearment for Bilbo by Gandalf. His pride and reverence for Bilbo at this point is great.
10. As Bilbo prepares to leave the mountain, several Dwarves feel shame & pity at his going, as opposed to Thorin, who is calling Bilbo a 'descendent of rats' & threatening to 'sting his feet' with arrows.
Who do you think has the right feelings towards Bilbo? Bombur, who feels ashamed & will miss Mr Baggins, Thorin who feels betrayed, or is the truth lying somewhere between?
I think the dwarves do have a right to feel betrayed by Bilbo. They all care for Bilbo by now. Not only because he saved them a buhzillion times, but because of his goodness, courage, and leadership. They wouldn't be there at all if it hadn't been for him. But they had a right to being afronted by him giving the one very precious thing to Thorin and all dwarves to the enemy. In the heat of the moment, death and curses come quickly... but the others can't just turn off their dominating feelings for Bilbo. He's more a brother than a burglar.
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 21 2009, 10:55am
Post #19 of 24
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The only way to do these posts "wrong" is
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not to do them at all.
That's a good point about the other dwarves letting Thorin try to throw Bilbo off the wall. Didn't any of them move to stop him? I wonder how they will depict this in the movies. And of course in the movies, they can't get away with saying "some" of the other dwarves -- they will have to decide which dwarves react, and which do not.
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jul 21 2009, 4:38pm
Post #20 of 24
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It will be interesting to see if the film dwarves are given dominant characteristics and how they react at this moment... if it's in keeping (or a setup) with their actions throughout the Quest. Fili and Kili being Pippin-ish. Balin a secondary leader. Dwalin a group leader of the youngers. Bombur our comic relief, etc. I would think there'd need to be an underlying conflict between the dwarves to keep their individuality intact. They aren't a mindless herd, afterall. Bilbo and whatever events they're all facing can't be the only antagonists to the story. There's usually some in-fighting when so many strong personalities are involved. It could also be very interesting or comical to see them at each other with Bilbo and/or Gandalf standing aside shaking their heads.
I suddenly pictured Bilbo and the dwarves in the middle of Mirkwood in the deepest dark of night with the dwarves bickering about something and all we hear are their voices.... all the sounds separated in the theatre's quadraphonic effect. Then there's Bilbo's low voice off behind us and to the right clicking his tongue and muttering something hobbity under his breath. That would be fun :)
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 21 2009, 6:21pm
Post #21 of 24
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I see a natural tension between the 7 royal and 6 non-royal dwarves.
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Two of Thorin's kin are the youngest dwarves. Fili and Kili are Thorin's sister-sons, a close relationship in Tolkien's legends, and even closer since Thorin has no sons. They are presumably his heirs, which perhaps is why Tolkien kills them off. They are fifty years younger than the youngest of the other dwarves, and more than a hundred years younger than Thorin. And they are the scouts.
Balin and Dwalin and Oin and Gloin are all Thorin's third cousins, part of the royal family tree but more distant than Dain, a second cousin, and Fili and Kili. Balin is the only dwarf other than Thorin who remembers the Lonely Mountain. Balin becomes very friendly with Bilbo, and comes close to rebuking Thorin about his treatment of Bilbo. But Balin is also the second in command when Thorin is absent. Oin and Gloin are the best firestarters.
The other six dwarves (Bombur, Bifur, Bofur, Dori, Ori, and Nori) are not related to Thorin. They are at least fifty years older than Fili and Kili, but they could still be sixty or so years younger than Thorin. I've always assumed they are among the "younger dwarves," since Thorin's cousins are not significantly younger than him, and someone must be only fifty years older than Fili and Kili.
Bombur is the fattest, and Dori is the strongest. Bifur, Bofur, Ori, and Nori are nonentities, so I've always assumed they are similar to their relatives -- Bifur and Bofur are relatively fat and tend to grumble, Ori and Nori are relatively strong and tend to be helpful. But Bombur and Dori both developed relationships with Bilbo, and when the narrator refers to the dwarves who grumble about Thorin's stubbornness or feel ashamed of Bilbo's treatment, I always think of Bombur, Bifur, Bofur, Dori, Ori, and Nori. I assume that Thorin's closer relatives, even if they feel the same, are more loyal to Thorin, and less likely to openly grumble.
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squire
Gondolin
Jul 21 2009, 8:10pm
Post #22 of 24
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That's a great analysis of the dwarves, one of the best I've ever seen.
My only comment is that, like all the fabulous details in "The Quest of Erebor", it's all retrospective addition by Tolkien. Most of the formal relationships you cite are from the family trees that Tolkien did for the "Durin's Folk" appendices to LotR, written in the late 1940s to tie the two stories more closely together. I think only Fili and Kili's relationship to Thorin is explicitly given in The Hobbit itself. The rest are all effectively of the same vague rank and standing: companions of Thorin Oakenshield, period.
Reading just The Hobbit, I would have guessed that Balin would be among the first to "feel ashamed of Bilbo's treatment." As you point out, he is both friendly to Bilbo and earlier "comes close to rebuking Thorin for his treatment of Bilbo." Yet you conclude that he keeps his mouth shut at this point in the story, entirely because he is of the so-called "royal house."
I assume that a reader of The Hobbit has no idea that Balin would later be added to the so-called royal house of Thorin, and should feel entirely confident that Balin is one of those who "felt shame and pity" when Bilbo was ejected from the dwarves' fortress to appease Thorin's rage.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 21 2009, 9:34pm
Post #23 of 24
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I'm trying to fill in some blanks.
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For the most part, Tolkien treated the twelve dwarves other than Thorin as a chorus, giving them precious little individuality. If we assume that the filmmakers will take a different approach, how can they do so while still remaining true to Tolkien?
One possibility is to pick up on what Tolkien wrote about Thorin's family tree. That might account for the feelings of "some dwarves" or "some of the younger dwarves." If the filmmakers want to identify those grumbling dwarves, Tolkien has offered a means to do so.
As for Balin, even without the family tree we know he is the second-oldest dwarf and second in command when Thorin is absent. He's not one of the "younger" dwarves. And he's not a grumbler like Bombur. If Balin disagrees with Thorin he says so to his face. If his advice is rejected, he keeps his mouth shut.
But all of this is speculative, and if they want to show Balin expressing shame and reject, I don't have a problem with that.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 22 2009, 2:26am
Post #24 of 24
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I also think it's a form of endearment for Bilbo by Gandalf. His pride and reverence for Bilbo at this point is great.
A term of endearment! I like that. And yes - there can be no doubt now of how proud Gandalf is of Bilbo.
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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