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weaver
Gondolin
Jul 11 2009, 3:37am
Post #1 of 28
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A Thief in the Night -- Part 5
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This post covers the final part of Bilbo’s conversation with Bard and the Elvenking and the encounter with Gandalf. I will do one final post on the weekend that will both cover the chapter’s ending and serve as a conclusion to this discussion.
First, here are Bard and Bilbo’s farewell words:
"But how is it yours to give?" he (Bard) asked at last with an effort.
"O well!" said the hobbit uncomfortably. "It isn't exactly; but, well, I am willing to let it stand against all my claim, don't you know. I may be a burglar--or so they say: personally I never really felt like one--but I am an honest one, I hope, more or less."
"Anyway I am going back now, and the dwarves can do what they like to me. I hope you will find it useful."
The Elvenking and Bilbo’s farewell:
"The Elvenking looked at Bilbo with a new wonder. "Bilbo Baggins!" he said. "You are more worthy to wear the armour of elf-princes than many that have looked more comely in it. But I wonder if Thorin Oakenshield will see it so. I have more knowledge of dwarves in general than you have perhaps. I advise you to remain with us, and here you shall be honoured and thrice welcome."
"Thank you very much I am sure," said Bilbo with a bow. "But I don't think I ought to leave my friends like this, after all we have gone through together. And I promised to wake old Bombur at midnight, too! Really I must be going, and quickly."
Bilbo’s departure, and his encounter and conversation with Gandalf:
"Nothing they could say would stop him; so an escort was provided for him, and as he went both the king and Bard saluted him with honour. As they passed through the camp an old man, wrapped in a dark cloak, rose from a tent door where he was sitting and came towards them.
"Well done! Mr. Baggins!" he said, clapping Bilbo on the back. "There is always more about you than anyone expects!" It was Gandalf.
For the first time for many a day Bilbo was really delighted. But there was no time for all the questions that he immediately wished to ask.
“All in good time!” said Gandalf. “Things are drawing towards the end now, unless I am mistaken. There is an unpleasant time just in front of you; but keep your heart up! You may come through all right. There is news brewing that even the ravens have not heard. Good night!”
Questions:
1. Why does Bilbo still not consider himself a burglar, after all of the successful burglaring he's done on this adventure?
2. What does the Elvenking know about dwarves that Bilbo doesn't?
3. Why is the Elvenking, and not Bard, the one to acknowledge Bilbo's actions?
4. What does it mean to be "thrice welcome?"
5. Why is Bilbo concerned about keeping his promise to Bombur after the trick he's just pulled on Thorin?
6. Any comments on Gandalf's return to the story at this point, and in this way?
7. How does Gandalf know news that not even the ravens know?
8. Heart of the mountain...heart of Thorin...and now, Gandalf says "keep your heart up" . Anyone care to comment on the repeated use of that image?
Weaver
(This post was edited by weaver on Jul 11 2009, 3:39am)
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Jul 11 2009, 3:59am
Post #2 of 28
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Thoughts Under the Influence. Well, it IS Friday night.
1. Why does Bilbo still not consider himself a burglar, after all of the successful burglaring he's done on this adventure?
I beg your pardon, Bilbo is a solid, upstanding citizen and master of Bag End. He may have had to be more...resourceful...than he would if he were just walking through the countryside near his home, but he still doesn't see himself as an outlaw, as a burglar must be.
2. What does the Elvenking know about dwarves that Bilbo doesn't?
The effect of treasure on their brains.
3. Why is the Elvenking, and not Bard, the one to acknowledge Bilbo's actions?
He needed some lines.
4. What does it mean to be "thrice welcome?"
Not just twice, but thrice.
5. Why is Bilbo concerned about keeping his promise to Bombur after the trick he's just pulled on Thorin?
See #1
6. Any comments on Gandalf's return to the story at this point, and in this way?
Love it! I am so happy and surprised to see Gandalf again, I could shout!
7. How does Gandalf know news that not even the ravens know?
Looking ahead. Or behind.
8. Heart of the mountain...heart of Thorin...and now, Gandalf says "keep your heart up" . Anyone care to comment on the repeated use of that image?
Not sure, except where there's a heart, there's life. Okay, that's lame. Posting anyway.
Where's Frodo?
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squire
Gondolin
Jul 11 2009, 5:51am
Post #3 of 28
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1. Why does Bilbo still not consider himself a burglar, after all of the successful burglaring he's done on this adventure?
His respectable Baggins side really really hates this version of his job description. Obviously Gloin’s “expert treasure hunter” doesn’t sing. It’s a shame Bilbo didn’t know about the extraordinarily flexible word we have for his situation: “consultant”.
This remark is also a sign that Bilbo finally sees his way clear to returning home fairly soon.
2. What does the Elvenking know about dwarves that Bilbo doesn't?
He thinks of dwarves in the terms of The Silmarillion, although we don’t know more of that than the hints Tolkien gives in his little arias about the Wood-elves and the dwarves as they await Bilbo’s return from the depths of Erebor. But Bilbo is not an Elf! He knows that The Hobbit’s dwarves are not quite the same creatures as in the Sil. For instance, as I noted before, Bilbo knows the dwarves very well by now and clearly does not anticipate being killed for his double-dealing, which is what the Elven King is hinting.
3. Why is the Elvenking, and not Bard, the one to acknowledge Bilbo's actions?
A little touch of how the Elves are actually morally superior beings. Not very strongly handled in The Hobbit (since the Elves serve as the villains at one point). This speech sounds like noble blather for that reason.
4. What does it mean to be "thrice welcome?"
Three is the magic number.
5. Why is Bilbo concerned about keeping his promise to Bombur after the trick he's just pulled on Thorin?
Bilbo’s goodness is never clearer than here, where he strives to keep his promises and do well by others, even as he seemingly plays the traitor.
6. Any comments on Gandalf's return to the story at this point, and in this way?
I hate this scene. Who needs Gandalf, when Bilbo has done it all?
And Gandalf’s “There is always more about you than anyone expects!” is patronizing – clearly Gandalf expected this very scene to play out as it did, being omniscient and all. He wouldn’t have picked Bilbo had he not expected Bilbo to rise to the occasion, as he repeatedly remarked when he was traveling with the company. Bilbo collapses back into juvenilism at the sight of Gandalf – it’s sickening.
7. How does Gandalf know news that not even the ravens know?
Who the hell knows? Who cares? He’s no longer Curious’ beloved Trickster. He’s the Deus ex Machina at this point. (Much as Gandalf the Grey becomes the boringly perfect Gandalf the White in the sequel!)
8. Heart of the mountain...heart of Thorin...and now, Gandalf says "keep your heart up" . Anyone care to comment on the repeated use of that image?
I haven’t the heart.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Kimi
Forum Admin
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Jul 11 2009, 9:50pm
Post #4 of 28
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1. Why does Bilbo still not consider himself a burglar, after all of the successful burglaring he's done on this adventure?
Burglars prey on respectable folk with houses or hobbit-holes, thank you very much.
5. Why is Bilbo concerned about keeping his promise to Bombur after the trick he's just pulled on Thorin?
Bilbo is prepared (even when given the chance to stay out here) to face the consequences of what he's done to Thorin. He's not prepared to let Bombur suffer Thorin's wrath by being found to have left his watch because Bilbo tricked him into it.
7. How does Gandalf know news that not even the ravens know?
I imagine this is the author having fun with the Gandalf/Odin link.
My writing (including The Passing of Mistress Rose)
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 11 2009, 10:23pm
Post #5 of 28
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1. Why does Bilbo still not consider himself a burglar, after all of the successful burglaring he's done on this adventure?
Who ever heard of an honest burglar? Only in a lawless society can a burglar be honest, and the Shire is not lawless. But of course the Wild is lawless, and therefore Bilbo has not broken any laws.
2. What does the Elvenking know about dwarves that Bilbo doesn't?
The Elvenking does know the effect of dragon-tainted treasure on dwarves. See the fall of Doriath.
3. Why is the Elvenking, and not Bard, the one to acknowledge Bilbo's actions?
Bard does not know the effect of dragon-tainted treasure on dwarves.
4. What does it mean to be "thrice welcome?"
I think it just means really, really welcome.
5. Why is Bilbo concerned about keeping his promise to Bombur after the trick he's just pulled on Thorin?
He's hoping his trick does more good than harm. Leaving Bombur in the lurch would do more harm than good. He's not ashamed of tricking Thorin. He would be ashamed if he broke his promise to Bombur.
6. Any comments on Gandalf's return to the story at this point, and in this way?
He's the first of many old friends and enemies to show up. But he must have come before Smaug died, because he got a jump on everyone else -- even Dain. I think we learn later that he came because someone informed him that the path the dwarves were using, and that Gandalf told them to stay on, died in the east.
7. How does Gandalf know news that not even the ravens know?
I'm not surprised that Gandalf knew or guessed that the goblins were coming. My question is how the ravens don't know, and others haven't guessed, that the goblins will try to take the treasure.
8. Heart of the mountain...heart of Thorin...and now, Gandalf says "keep your heart up" . Anyone care to comment on the repeated use of that image?
Tolkien is big on following your heart, not your head. And Gandalf's specialty is kindling courage in the hearts of the fearful.
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Jul 12 2009, 3:00am
Post #6 of 28
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1. Why does Bilbo still not consider himself a burglar, after all of the successful burglaring he's done on this adventure?
Because his heart is not in it. Ever had a job/title that you just did not connect with?
2. What does the Elvenking know about dwarves that Bilbo doesn't?
All that history from TS.
3. Why is the Elvenking, and not Bard, the one to acknowledge Bilbo's actions?
Possibly because Bard was still "dazed"?
4. What does it mean to be "thrice welcome?"
More than his physical presence is welcome--also his spirit and mind.
5. Why is Bilbo concerned about keeping his promise to Bombur after the trick he's just pulled on Thorin?
Point of honor. And Bilbo wouldn't want Bimbor to incur Thorin's questioning of *where's Bilbo*?
6. Any comments on Gandalf's return to the story at this point, and in this way?
Does Bilbo need Gandalf's *pep talk* to see him through the next part of the tale?
7. How does Gandalf know news that not even the ravens know?
He has other friends? 
8. Heart of the mountain...heart of Thorin...and now, Gandalf says "keep your heart up" . Anyone care to comment on the repeated use of that image?
Heart of the mountain--like its foundation; heart of Thorin--what drives him; heart of Bilbo--keeps him true.
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sador
Gondolin
Jul 12 2009, 8:44am
Post #7 of 28
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1. Why does Bilbo still not consider himself a burglar, after all of the successful burglaring he's done on this adventure?
I think he doesn't want to.
In his heart, he is still the respectable middle-class hobbit, who sees burglars as ruffians.
2. What does the Elvenking know about dwarves that Bilbo doesn't?
Well, he knows ancient history and the fire of the dwarves' hearts better than Bilbo does(however, squire had a different take on this).
The funny thing is that what prevents Thorin from harming Bilbo is the presence of Gandalf - which the Elvenking knows about, but Bilbo doesn't yet!
3. Why is the Elvenking, and not Bard, the one to acknowledge Bilbo's actions?
He is a king. This might be Bard's battle, but in many things he is still outranked.
4. What does it mean to be "thrice welcome?"
A nice contrast to Bilbo's previous stay at the Elvenking's halls.
5. Why is Bilbo concerned about keeping his promise to Bombur after the trick he's just pulled on Thorin?
This is Bilbo's finest moment. It shows him to be a really decent, good-hearted fellow, who keeps troth and feels responsible towards others.
With Thorin he had excuses - both a semi-legal claim why he could do what he did, and a belief he was doing it for everyone's good (including Thorin's).
There is no excuse to betray Bombur's trust like that (and remembering his Ring, possibly nobody ever did blame Bombur), except for Bilbo's personal safety and convinience.
So he does not betray Bombur, and assumes responsibility (at a considerable risk) for his action.
I join the Elvenking and Bard in saluting him - although perhaps for a different reason.
6. Any comments on Gandalf's return to the story at this point, and in this way?
It's the turning of the tide. Like in 'The White Rider'.
7. How does Gandalf know news that not even the ravens know?
Ask no questions, and you'll hear no lies.
8. Heart of the mountain...heart of Thorin...and now, Gandalf says "keep your heart up" . Anyone care to comment on the repeated use of that image?
Nice catch!
Let me add a fourth, from 'Riddles in the Dark':
Bilbo's heart jumped into his mouth. He gave a terrific squirm. Buttons burst off in all directions. He was through, with a torn coat and waistcoat, leaping down the steps like a goat, while bewildered goblins were still picking up his nice brass buttons on the doorstep. Is that what Gandalf meant in "keep your heart up"? 
"Such a fool deserves to starve." - Bard.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Jul 13 2009, 3:29am
Post #9 of 28
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You mean someone like...the fox?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Jul 13 2009, 3:32am
Post #10 of 28
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maybe....or bears..or eagles?//
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(This post was edited by batik on Jul 13 2009, 3:33am)
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dernwyn
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Jul 13 2009, 3:44am
Post #11 of 28
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You would have really hated the original version.
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I hate this scene. Who needs Gandalf, when Bilbo has done it all?
Well, it's far better than the original, which had the Elvenking arguing against using the precious stone to bargain with Thorin, when up steps an old man who reveals himself to be Gandalf. The wizard then lectures both sides, and has everyone sign a pact in the Ruined City, and Thorin becomes King under the Mountain, and Bilbo returns home with a set of golden dinner service and a silver kettle.
Right.
And Bilbo will need Gandalf shortly, to save his Hobbit hide when Thorin discovers the deception!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Jul 13 2009, 3:55am
Post #12 of 28
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I admit to hero worship of Gandalf, but this still seems unwarranted:
6. Any comments on Gandalf's return to the story at this point, and in this way?
I hate this scene. Who needs Gandalf, when Bilbo has done it all?
And Gandalf’s “There is always more about you than anyone expects!” is patronizing – clearly Gandalf expected this very scene to play out as it did, being omniscient and all. He wouldn’t have picked Bilbo had he not expected Bilbo to rise to the occasion, as he repeatedly remarked when he was traveling with the company. Bilbo collapses back into juvenilism at the sight of Gandalf – it’s sickening.
To me, Gandalf's reappearance and approval of Bilbo's actions gives a blessing to the Arkenstone deal. I always felt uneasy about Bilbo's "stealing" the Arkenstone. I'm a play-by-the-rules kind of person, and it makes me uneasy when Bilbo not only keeps the Heart of the Mountain hidden from the Dwarves but then sneaks out at night and gives it to Bard. Gandalf makes everything OK for me, and if that's juvenile, then shut the book, give me my blankie and tuck me in!
Where's Frodo?
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Pryderi
Ossiriand
Jul 13 2009, 7:31pm
Post #13 of 28
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Just the place for a Snark! the Bellman cried,
As he landed his crew with care;
Supporting each man on the top of the tide
By a finger entwined in his hair
Just the place for a Snark! I have said it twice:
That alone should encourage the crew.
Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice:
What I tell you three times is true.
That is from Lewis Carrol's "The Hunting of the Snark" just in case anybody thought I composed it. Is that why Bilbo would be welcomed thrice? I recall Bilbo welcoming Gandalf in the first film. He certainly repeats his "welcome" but do we get it "thrice"? I forget!
I find repetition, like the beating of a drum, to be quite a significant amplifier. Carrol exploits it, I think, magnificently in the quote above. Is that what Tolkien is hinting at in allowing the aristrocratic Elven King to allude to a colloquial repetetive form of speech whilst maintaining his formal persona?
I really don't know. Is it interesting? If so let me know.
Pryderi.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 13 2009, 7:44pm
Post #14 of 28
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There's Bilbo's own phrase, "Third time pays for all."//
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Pryderi
Ossiriand
Jul 13 2009, 8:48pm
Post #15 of 28
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Quoted by Bilbo. I forget but it sounds like one of the pearls of wisdom that Bungo bequeathed to his son. Thanks for taking the trouble to respond.
Pryderi.
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Ankalima
Lindon
Jul 16 2009, 9:44am
Post #17 of 28
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amplification through repetition
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This would merit a whole new thread.
It reminds me of Opera where much of the libretto is repeated for impact.
Last night when I was walking across Trafalgar Sqaure watching the Barber of Seveille on the big screen, the repetition was wondrous as the lyrical melody soared - Rossini was the Master of that. BYW Does anyone know is there are any of the volunteers on the Gormley Plinth there going to use it to construct a Hobbit message. If so I will make sure I am there to cheer them on.
I am enjoying this thread very much even though I am always a lurker more than a contributor
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Gatehammer
Lindon
Jul 16 2009, 9:51am
Post #18 of 28
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colloquial words in a formal manner of address?
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This is a very very interesting thread. This may have been well recognised by others, but I might suggest that when content and form are used thus, they are opposing signifiers underlying the dissonance the speaker feels in embedded in his message. And also received by the listener with a frisson of recognition of the dissonance in the message - perhaps. - or is that reading too much into it?
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 16 2009, 2:16pm
Post #19 of 28
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I don't understand. Are you suggesting that when the Elvenking says "thrice welcome" he is being insincere?
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jul 16 2009, 8:33pm
Post #20 of 28
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I would never have thought of the opera connection--thanks for a refreshing new perspective!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 16 2009, 8:38pm
Post #21 of 28
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How about the Hallelujah Chorus?
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Now there's repetition for impact!
Actually, most songs repeat the chorus.
And how about cheers? Three cheers for _____?
(This post was edited by Curious on Jul 16 2009, 8:39pm)
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sador
Gondolin
Jul 17 2009, 6:52am
Post #22 of 28
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You're moving on... leaving us all far behind... (wipes tears on sleeve, changes the postcard address to 'Valinor').
"Let us hope still for something that will bring reconciliation." - the Elvenking.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jul 17 2009, 2:39pm
Post #23 of 28
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I'm headed for Valinor already? I still think of myself as a newbie! Thanks for bringing this to my attention!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Pryderi
Ossiriand
Jul 17 2009, 8:22pm
Post #24 of 28
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I agree! (about the whole new thread) and Welcome! Welcome! Welcome!
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Well I don't really feel sufficiently "senior" to welcome another newcomer but I couldn't resist the opportunity to do so in, what I hope is, an apposite way.
I'm afraid I have never "got into" the opera so I cannot speak of that in any convincing way. So I won't try, but I will mention one verse of the Scottish Ballad "Sir Patrick Spens" which begins: "They hadna sailed a league, a league/ A league but barely three/....". Here surely the drum is beating and as the traditional audience already knew that the crew were all going to drown doesn't the threefold repetition heighten their expectation? I think the allusion, that I see, to counting (first league, second league, third league rather than (one, two and therefore) three leagues) only adds to the effect.
Well thanks a lot for responding to my post. As I said above I, too, am new around here and so I was pleased to hear that you were interested in my comment.
Pryderi.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jul 17 2009, 9:02pm
Post #25 of 28
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The more welcomers, the better! //
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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post..
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