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weaver
Gondolin
Jul 9 2009, 8:53am
Post #1 of 16
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A Thief in the Night -- Part 3
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Today, we look at Bilbo's departure and finding by the elves:
First, he has to get past Bombur:
"It is mighty cold!" said Bombur. "I wish we could have a fire up here as they have in the camp!"
"It is warm enough inside," said Bilbo.
"I daresay; but I am bound here till midnight," grumbled the fat dwarf. "A sorry business altogether. Not that I venture to disagree with Thorin, may his beard grow ever longer; yet he was ever a dwarf with a stiff neck."
"Not as stiff as my legs," said Bilbo. "I am tired of stairs and stone passages. I would give a good deal for the feel of grass at my toes."
"I would give a good deal for the feel of a strong drink in my throat, and for a soft bed after a good supper!"
"I can't give you those, while the siege is going on. but it is long since I watched, and I will take your turn for you, if you like. There is no sleep in me tonight."
"You are a good fellow, Mr. Baggins, and I will take your offer kindly. If there should be anything to note, rouse me first, mind you! I will lie in the inner chamber to the left, not far away."
"Off you go!" said Bilbo. "I will wake you at midnight, and you can wake the next watchman."
Bilbo then puts on his Ring and climbs down the wall. It is very dark. He walks along a "strange road" to him, and then has to cross the stream, which is large for him, and he falls in.
The elves hear him and Bilbo takes off his Ring and confronts them. Here is the conversation they have:
"Who are you? Are you the dwarves' hobbit? What are you doing? How did you get so far past our sentinels?" they asked one after another.
"I am Mr. Bilbo Baggins," he answered, "companion of Thorin, if you want to know. I know your king well by sight, though perhaps he doesn't know me to look at. but Bard will remember me, and it is Bard I particularly want to see."
"Indeed!" said they, "and what may be your business?"
"Whatever it is, it's my own, my good elves. But if you wish ever to get back to your own woods, from this cold cheerless place," he answered shivering, "you will take me along quick to a fire, where I can dry--and then you will let me speak to your chiefs as quick as may be. I have only an hour or two to spare."
Questions:
1. Any significance to Tolkien writing that Bombur is "bound" here on this particular night?
2. Would Bilbo have made the attempt if it were another dwarf on guard duty, less likely to stay asleep the whole time?
3. Any comments on the path Bilbo has to travel -- dark, down, along a strange road, across the water, and falling at the end of it?
4. Does the course that Bilbo takes here here remind you of any other roads/places traveled in Tolkien?
5. Bilbo uses talk of nature, rest and food to get past Bombur and talk of woods to get past the elves. Any thoughts on his use of these images?
6. Why doesn't Bilbo specifically ask to see the Elven King as well as Bard?
Weaver
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Twit
Menegroth
Jul 9 2009, 11:57am
Post #2 of 16
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1. Any significance to Tolkien writing that Bombur is "bound" here on this particular night?
It hadn't struck me until you pointed it out. Bound as in tied up, bound as in now- you- think- of- it- he- was- always- going- to- be- there, and bound as in service / agreement (more contracts?).
2. Would Bilbo have made the attempt if it were another dwarf on guard duty, less likely to stay asleep the whole time?
No which is why he made up his mind to do it that night, but he may have waited for Bombur or his turn.
3. Any comments on the path Bilbo has to travel -- dark, down, along a strange road, across the water, and falling at the end of it?
well it's similar to going down the tunnel, only there it was 'into' fire rather than water, and was hot rather than cold. He still fell though.
The fall is a way for him to come to the attention of the Elves as well as to remind us that he is only small and out of his element. And the Ring (that isn't atm) can't hide him completely. Although it is reminiscent of Isildur's death, it later seems to use water to escape.
4. Does the course that Bilbo takes here here remind you of any other roads/places traveled in Tolkien?
yes
5. Bilbo uses talk of nature, rest and food to get past Bombur and talk of woods to get past the elves. Any thoughts on his use of these images?
They are in an inhospitable, almost sterile place, so reminding Bombur of nature, rest and food not only appeals to him, but reminds him of his happy sleep in Mirkwood. Which is later mirrored by Bilbo's own dreams.
Maybe that's all part of the Elf music.
6. Why doesn't Bilbo specifically ask to see the Elven King as well as Bard?
Guilt, embarassment, fear and I think humility. It is also a reminder that because of Bilbo, Bard could kill Smaug (via the Thrush) - they have a connection, even if it one that only we know of. Unless the Thrush told him about Bilbo I suppose, but in the heat of battle it seems unlikely.
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Jul 9 2009, 1:27pm
Post #3 of 16
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1. Any significance to Tolkien writing that Bombur is "bound" here on this particular night?
No, it's his duty, same thing. He's bound by his duty to stay up there until midnight.
2. Would Bilbo have made the attempt if it were another dwarf on guard duty, less likely to stay asleep the whole time?
I doubt it. Remember after falling in the enchanted stream, Bombur can sleep anytime.
3. Any comments on the path Bilbo has to travel -- dark, down, along a strange road, across the water, and falling at the end of it?
None.
4. Does the course that Bilbo takes here here remind you of any other roads/places traveled in Tolkien?
Nope.
5. Bilbo uses talk of nature, rest and food to get past Bombur and talk of woods to get past the elves. Any thoughts on his use of these images?
Well, talk of of those things to Bombur is sure to put him in a mood to want to dream about them again.
6. Why doesn't Bilbo specifically ask to see the Elven King as well as Bard?
"Take me to your chiefs" - same thing.
The Ultimate Tolkien Trivia Quiz: http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/story.php?title=so-you-want-to-be-tolkien-geek
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 9 2009, 1:38pm
Post #4 of 16
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1. Any significance to Tolkien writing that Bombur is "bound" here on this particular night?
Well, it's clear that Bombur, at least, is as unhappy as Bilbo about the state of affairs. But he is bound to his king. Bilbo, arguably, is not.
2. Would Bilbo have made the attempt if it were another dwarf on guard duty, less likely to stay asleep the whole time?
Maybe. But I don't think it is any accident that he chose Bombur's watch for his venture.
3. Any comments on the path Bilbo has to travel -- dark, down, along a strange road, across the water, and falling at the end of it?
Well, Tolkien discovers yet another way for Bilbo to reveal himself despite the ring, but he would have done so anyway at some point -- and indeed he could have slipped away if he desired. I'm not sure I see any greater symbolism.
4. Does the course that Bilbo takes here here remind you of any other roads/places traveled in Tolkien?
Not off hand, except that there are, of course, other roads, and other streams.
5. Bilbo uses talk of nature, rest and food to get past Bombur and talk of woods to get past the elves. Any thoughts on his use of these images?
Actually, Bilbo just mentions to Bombur that it is warm inside, and claims that he, Bilbo, is tired of stairs and stone passages and having trouble sleeping. The talk of grass between his toes is not meant to entice Bombur, but to explain why Bilbo would rather be outside, and is willing to take Bombur's watch.
On the other hand, when Bilbo talks to the elves of returning to their forest, he is enticing them, and persuading them to take him to Bard.
In both cases he uses persuasion, but other than that I don't see any greater significance.
6. Why doesn't Bilbo specifically ask to see the Elven King as well as Bard?
Because Thorin will not negotiate with the Elvenking, but will negotiate with Bard. Also, Bard will recognize Bilbo, while the Elvenking might not.
I'll just comment that I feel bad for Bombur. Bilbo clearly betrays his trust, even if his intentions are good.
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Tavari
Lindon
Jul 9 2009, 2:54pm
Post #5 of 16
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1. Any significance to Tolkien writing that Bombur is "bound" here on this particular night?
When the dwarves are literally "bound" in the story, they are fighting enemies, like the spiders, or those they view as enemies at the time, like the elves. Tolkien is using a strong word to show that not all of the dwarves agree with Thorin by equating Thorin's power over the dwarves with capture by people who were clearly enemies of the dwarves. It shows that some of the dwarves are as unhappy as Bilbo at the whole situation.
2. Would Bilbo have made the attempt if it were another dwarf on guard duty, less likely to stay asleep the whole time?
I think he would have. He knew that Thorin and the dwarves would find out soon enough anyway (after all, later on he's the one who tells them), so I think with Bombur staying asleep, he would just view it as prolonging the inevitable. He has to know what Thorin's reaction will be when he finds out what Bilbo has done.
3. Any comments on the path Bilbo has to travel -- dark, down, along a strange road, across the water, and falling at the end of it?
I thought that the most significant thing was that Bilbo fell into the stream, which could be viewed as a sort of rebirth. If it is, I think that this happens now, instead of when he first starts becoming an active player in the quest because this is the first time that we see Bilbo doing something that the dwarves would hate and in which he is acting entirely of his own accord. When he is saving them from the spiders in Mirkwood, for example, his objective is still the same as their own, but at this point in the book, Bilbo wants something different from the dwarves. I think that the mention of it being a "strange road" is also significant, as it emphasizes that this is the first time Bilbo is taking a course that is opposite to what the dwarves want.
4. Does the course that Bilbo takes here here remind you of any other roads/places traveled in Tolkien?
I think it's different, just because of Bilbo's casual use of the Ring here and at other places in The Hobbit. This is a huge contrast with Frodo in LOTR.
5. Bilbo uses talk of nature, rest and food to get past Bombur and talk of woods to get past the elves. Any thoughts on his use of these images?
I think it's a reflection on Tolkien's views of the world, that nature is always preferable to stone things. You can also see this in LOTR with the ents.
6. Why doesn't Bilbo specifically ask to see the Elven King as well as Bard?
The Elven King is fighting for riches, whereas Bard is fighting to help his people. Bilbo has more of an appreciation for the latter (as I think most of us would) so he would trust someone with that motive more than someone who only wants to get richer.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jul 9 2009, 5:02pm
Post #6 of 16
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1. Any significance to Tolkien writing that Bombur is "bound" here on this particular night?
Bombur certainly feels "bound" by his duty to Thorin - he's not exactly committed to his watching is he? He grumbles about Thorin's "stiff neck" that has got them into this uncomfortable position, even though he doesn't "venture to disagree" with Thorin's decision! He's just following orders, in other words, as he's bound to do, without any love of the work he's been given.
2. Would Bilbo have made the attempt if it were another dwarf on guard duty, less likely to stay asleep the whole time?
I guess this was the last part of the puzzle falling into place. Bilbo has been gradually figuring out what he might do, and now he sees the way clear. Bilbo is careful to get back in time to wake Bombur, so that neither he nor the other Dwarves ever know how the Arkenstone got to Bard (unless I've missed something). It reminds me of the way he put the keys back on the butler's key-ring when they escaped from the Elvenking. It's a thoughtful touch, and maybe a bit mischievous too, since it creates an insoluble puzzle!
3. Any comments on the path Bilbo has to travel -- dark, down, along a strange road, across the water, and falling at the end of it?
I can't remember any others just like it. It makes me wonder if Tolkien ever got caught by nightfall when he was out hiking - it sounds so much like a real experience!
4. Does the course that Bilbo takes here here remind you of any other roads/places traveled in Tolkien?
There are lots of paths, and lots of river-crossings, but nothing just like this springs to mind. Frodo falls into the Withywindle, but that's quite a different scene from this.
5. Bilbo uses talk of nature, rest and food to get past Bombur and talk of woods to get past the elves. Any thoughts on his use of these images?
Well, it's really Bombur who talks about food, drink and bed - Bilbo doesn't have to do much persuading! When he meets the Elves, he's empathetic enough to realize that they, like him, probably want nothing more than to get home as soon as possible. And having visited their home, he knows what to mention to bring it to their minds.
6. Why doesn't Bilbo specifically ask to see the Elven King as well as Bard?
He does mention that he wants to see their "chiefs", so I guess that includes the Elven King. But he mentions Bard specifically by name, perhaps because it's to Bard that he intends to give the Arkenstone.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Kimi
Forum Admin
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Jul 9 2009, 10:53pm
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I think it's partly because, as Bilbo says, Bard will recognise him. But I think it also relates to what we saw in the last chapter, where Bard put forward his case:
"Further in his last battle Smaug destroyed the dwellings of the men of Esgaroth, and I am yet the servant of their Master. I would speak for him and ask whether you have no thought for the sorrow and misery of his people. They aided you in your distress, and in recompense you have thus far brought ruin only, though doubtless undesigned."
And Bilbo's response:
Now these were fair words and true, if proudly and grimly spoken; and Bilbo thought that Thorin would at once admit what justice was in them.
Bilbo respects Bard, and feels something is owed him. I think this is part of what's in his mind when he hands this potent bargaining chip to Bard.
My writing (including The Passing of Mistress Rose)
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
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dernwyn
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Jul 11 2009, 1:59am
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Bilbo has seen Bard "in action", and thus he feels he understands him somewhat and can trust him.
I doubt he ever had the chance to see the Elven-king in the same position; and he may still be thinking of how that king treated the Dwarves.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
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Jul 11 2009, 2:14am
Post #9 of 16
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It was a dark and stumbly night...
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Any significance to Tolkien writing that Bombur is "bound" here on this particular night?
As Tavari and FFH noted, Bombur is bound to his duty to Thorin, even though he is unhappy about what has happened.
Would Bilbo have made the attempt if it were another dwarf on guard duty, less likely to stay asleep the whole time?
Bilbo made the decision to do the deed that night because of Thorin's words to Roâc earlier that day. It was most fortunate that the comfort-loving Bombur was on duty!
Any comments on the path Bilbo has to travel -- dark, down, along a strange road, across the water, and falling at the end of it? Does the course that Bilbo takes here here remind you of any other roads/places traveled in Tolkien?
What is it with that poor Hobbit and stumbing! He travels down a dark tunnel in the Misty Mountains after Dori stumbles and drops him, and thus crawls along and comes upon a Ring - and Gollum. He travels through a dark forest-tunnel, and stumbles into a ring of Elves. He walks down the dark tunnel towards Smaug the third time - and stumbles into the empty lair. Now he's stumbling into a river in the dark!
Those poor hairy toes must be quite bruised...
(Although it should be remembered, that Tolkien intended for Bilbo to be wearing boots during the journey beyond Rivendell - which is why he drew a "booted" Bilbo with Smaug. He just forgot to write that in.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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squire
Gondolin
Jul 11 2009, 2:31am
Post #10 of 16
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Mr. Lucky Number strikes again!
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1. Any significance to Tolkien writing that Bombur is "bound" here on this particular night?
It’s an older usage for “under orders” than is common today, probably because we value individual initiative more than obedience. There are overtones of oath, compulsion, and force to being “bound” to do something. Yet Bombur is no more a complainer than any sentry has ever been.
I can think of very innocent vernacular usages of “bound” from my youth. Here’s one:
Well I come from Alabama with my banjo on my knee
And I'm bound for Louisiana, my own true love for to see
2. Would Bilbo have made the attempt if it were another dwarf on guard duty, less likely to stay asleep the whole time?
No, of course not. Bilbo (unlike Thorin) is no fool. If the “beginnings” of his plan was the recognition of the Arkenstone’s value in ending the stalemate, the “endings” of the plan were details like using Bombur’s duty night to get the job done safely.
3. Any comments on the path Bilbo has to travel -- dark, down, along a strange road, across the water, and falling at the end of it?
It seems like you’re referring to his passage in the goblin tunnels down to Gollum’s lake.
I was interested by the reference to the “bend where he had to cross”. For one thing, I’m surprised to read about a ford at a bend – I thought that was where the water would be fairly deep as the current speeds up to carve its way against the river bank. For another, I wonder if this relates to an interesting detail in the history of Tolkien’s illustrations for The Hobbit, as discussed a while ago.
Here is the original picture of the river coming out of the mountain:
But Tolkien changed the picture, to include a bend:
Did the bend in the picture get added to fit the description in the text as the text evolved? If so – why add the bend at all? Did Tolkien really imagine that the particulars of Bilbo’s excursion needed a bend to justify him crossing the stream and falling in and thus attracting the Elves and providing the comic image of him (once again) sneezing while invisible and then sitting in a conference soaking wet? Couldn't he have just said "where the way led to a ford" etc.? After all, his readers aren't referring to a map, and almost any description of the hazards of a walk in the dark is believable.
4. Does the course that Bilbo takes here remind you of any other roads/places traveled in Tolkien?
As others have said, it’s almost generically Tolkienian. But did you have something in mind? If so, it seems no one has guessed it yet!
5. Bilbo uses talk of nature, rest and food to get past Bombur and talk of woods to get past the elves. Any thoughts on his use of these images?
Others have noted the details of Bilbo’s rhetoric. What I notice is that he uses it in the first place. Bilbo has become wise in the ways of the world and of its peoples. In this chapter, we see that he knows how to appeal to the weaknesses of folk as diverse as the gluttonous Bombur and the ascetic Wood Elves. Another indication of his growing maturity.
6. Why doesn't Bilbo specifically ask to see the Elven King as well as Bard?
He knows that Bard is the key to the puzzle. Thorin just hates the Elven King too much for that route to work.
Bilbo does not expect the Elves to get his little private joke about “he doesn’t know me to look at.” Bilbo's ironic sense of the ridiculous is almost stratospheric by this point in the story.
I think it is a bit artificial that the Elves immediately assume not just that the thrashing in the water is the action of a “spy” from the dwarves’ stronghold, but that it is probably the hobbit. It is excusable only to introduce the comedy of “queer little creature that is said (by whom?) to be their servant (One servant to 13 dwarves?)” and for Bilbo to snort in disgust and sneeze in distress simultaneously. This is the kind of arch construction that I think distinguishes The Hobbit – even in the rather complex and adult latter half of the book – from Tolkien’s more considered and mature fiction.
As an additional comment, I note Bombur’s peculiar mode of addressing his King: “Thorin”. Pretty familiar, no? But in the same breath he calls Bilbo “Mr. Baggins”. After months together, the dwarves still will not call him “Bilbo”.
This is a strong theme in the book: only Bilbo is “Mr.” somebody. The narrator and the dwarves both use the honorific. The title is at once familiar and formal, both dignified and comic. It keeps Bilbo in a different world throughout, the world of a “well-to-do” but bourgeois gentleman (gentlehobbit, as Tolkien later coins it) who has unaccountably become mixed up in a fairy-tale adventure. Even Smaug, who does not know Bilbo’s name, recognizes the burglar’s peculiar status when he honors him with the cognomen “Mr. Lucky Number”!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jul 11 2009, 12:09pm
Post #11 of 16
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Very good point about 'Mr. Baggins':
The title is at once familiar and formal, both dignified and comic. It keeps Bilbo in a different world throughout, the world of a “well-to-do” but bourgeois gentleman (gentlehobbit, as Tolkien later coins it) who has unaccountably become mixed up in a fairy-tale adventure.
I'm not sure I completely agree with your assumption, though, that the Dwarves might have thought they should change to 'Bilbo' after a certain length of time. Historically (in England, at least), people who knew each other well all their lives would still use the honorific to each other. Forenames were reserved for family or childhood friends, and honorifics were a part of everyday life. I remember people who had known my parents for years calling them Mr. or Mrs. [lastname], with lots of affection and familiarity, but no sense that they should use their first names instead. The new fashion for first names indicating friendliness only came in my mother's last years, and it always sounded odd to me to hear young nursing staff, for example, calling her by her first name. Compared to the tradition she knew, it didn't sound friendly so much as impertinent and patronising, as if she was a child again. Just another culture clash, I guess!
The other, rather contradictory, thing about forenames is that they are older and actually more noble than Mr. + last name. Royalty are always called by their forenames, and so are knights and dames of the realm ('Sir Ian' becomes the correct, formal way of addressing the former Mr. McKellen). So I don't see anything less than formal, in the ancient, fairytale world, about the Dwarves calling their leader simply Thorin. At least, I'd find it extremely odd if they called him Mr. Oakenshield... 
On another of your points:
Did the bend in the picture get added to fit the description in the text as the text evolved? If so – why add the bend at all? Did Tolkien really imagine that the particulars of Bilbo’s excursion needed a bend to justify him crossing the stream and falling in and thus attracting the Elves ...
I get the impression that the bend is there so that the stream will clearly block Bilbo's path at a particular point: "At last he came to the bend where he had to cross the water, if he was to make for the camp, as he wished." Bilbo's direct descent is blocked by the stream, so he crosses right there, whether or not it's a shallow place - we're not told that there is a "ford" at that spot, just that Bilbo has no choice but to ford it there or take a detour. Maybe that's also why the Elves are so close, if they are guarding the obvious route from the mountain to their camp.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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sador
Gondolin
Jul 12 2009, 6:26am
Post #12 of 16
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And that despite next chapter's
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prefering to die in defense of the Elvenking, if need be to die?
"Such a fool deserves to starve." - Bard.
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sador
Gondolin
Jul 12 2009, 6:48am
Post #13 of 16
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1. Any significance to Tolkien writing that Bombur is "bound" here on this particular night?
Not much, as squire mentioned.
Or maybe there is - it reinforces the dwarves being a part of the Old World, where one was bound to his duty far more than today.
2. Would Bilbo have made the attempt if it were another dwarf on guard duty, less likely to stay asleep the whole time?
With another dwarf, he would have probably used the Ring. The final incentive for him to take action was Thorin's threat.
That was an immensly good thing! As I have argued before, Bilbo's high point is not in the mere giving Bard the Arkenstone (that could be a simple case of taking fright, and deciding to wash his hands of the whole afair), but in returning back and accepting responsibilty.
This is not like returning the key to the guard in the Elvenking's halls, which actually helped disguise the escape - this is a moral act, plain and simple. It raises Bilbo from being a thief and traitor to a truly moral person.
Had he sneaked past a different guard - he would never have dared to return. He would not feel as bound to (say) Ori as to a Bombur he commiserated with; and he would be mortally afraid of sneezing and being caught.
What difference would that have made? Nothing immediate; but as the Baggins' moral character would be of the utmost importance to Middle-Earth in less than a hundred years, it seems to be critical.
3. Any comments on the path Bilbo has to travel -- dark, down, along a strange road, across the water, and falling at the end of it?
Do you mean birth, or death?
Anyway, ask Dreamdeer. 
4. Does the course that Bilbo takes here here remind you of any other roads/places traveled in Tolkien?
Nothing simple; perhaps the road he sent the dwarves upon in 'Barrles out of Bond'? (Note the use of 'Bond'!) Or his own accompanying them?
If so, it is an interesting comparison; Bilbo is again seperate from the dwarves, but aren't there differences between the two cases a far as trust and faith are concerned?
The imagery of death and rebirth was used by Bilbo himself, when riddling with Smaug.
This brings to mind several other cases in LotR, which Curious mentioned a couple of times when we discussed that book: the Barrow-downs, Moria, Cirith Ungol, the Paths of the Dead. Another case of leaving this life and being reborn, is in a near-diametrically opposite experience: Lothlorien.
5. Bilbo uses talk of nature, rest and food to get past Bombur and talk of woods to get past the elves. Any thoughts on his use of these images?
I think his talk of nature (rather than mere food and rest) shows his affinity with the elves, which will become more pronounced next chapter.
6. Why doesn't Bilbo specifically ask to see the Elven King as well as Bard?
Bard knows him, and all the claims are in his name. The Elvenking is no more than a witness to the proceeding.
"Such a fool deserves to starve." - Bard.
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jul 12 2009, 2:09pm
Post #14 of 16
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*snigger* Bombur sounds more like a hobbit
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than a dwarf ;)
"I would give a good deal for the feel of a strong drink in my throat, and for a soft bed after a good supper!"
But I feel so badly for Bilbo. As soon as he says that he longs for the feel of green grass on his toes, you realize how long it's been since he walked on any tamed grass, let along in the Shire. It's been since Beorn's home, if you think about it. Then he was on a pony, into Mirkwood, into Thranduil's caves, onto the water, stopping at the wooden-island of Lake-town, and then to the Mountain. I suddenly remembered that shot of Frodo after escaping Shelob as he falls onto the green grass in his vision of Galadriel. It's heartbreaking and always hits me whenever I see it.
Good point on whether Bilbo's tactic would have worked on any of the other dwarves. That's a very good point! And if it had been Balin, in particular. Would Bilbo have wanted to pull such a tricksy on Balin?
I think Bilbo's plan... because of its pure intention... was under the grace of the Will of Good, and so could not fail. He was completely selfless in his desire to bring peace to this situation. Though he was selfish in wanting it to end so he could go home; but I think he could be excused for that ;)
I think Bilbo always felt badly about deceiving the Elven King (he's always been fascinated by elves) and he was wise in honouring any and all leaders involved with this dilemma.
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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squire
Gondolin
Jul 12 2009, 6:04pm
Post #15 of 16
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Why don't they just call him "Baggins"?
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I thought an interesting insight from our early discussion was the possibility that the dwarves look down on Bilbo in the beginning because he is a "hired hand". By that interpretation, they could have addressed him as "Baggins" in the beginning, and made the transition to "Mr. Baggins" as they gained respect for him. What argues against the angle of initial disrespect is that they call him "Mr. Baggins" immediately.
I don't think the universal usage in the book of everyone calling the dwarves by their first names means very much, except that Tolkien did not want to gum up the works once the thing was launched. Originally the dwarves are a band of comedians and clowns for whom single names are perfectly appropriate, with only Thorin maintaining enough dignity, and an actual cognomen, that might justify thinking of him as an aging prince in exile.
Once Thorin becomes King - or claims to - it's far too late for the dwarves to adopt a court culture. I agree that "Mr. Oakenshield" would be absurd, but I could have seen Bombur refer to "my Lord Thorin" or "The King" to show the change. Of course that would have weighed the book down further than it already is by this point.
I was always interested in the screenwriters' choice to have Elrond addressed as "Lord Elrond" in the New Line films, something the book never does. I wonder if they decided that just calling him "Elrond" conveyed too little respect, given how undeveloped his character and history are in the film version. Likewise they dropped the Hobbit-y "Halfelven" cognomen!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jul 12 2009, 9:20pm
Post #16 of 16
(858 views)
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I thought an interesting insight from our early discussion was the possibility that the dwarves look down on Bilbo in the beginning because he is a "hired hand". By that interpretation, they could have addressed him as "Baggins" in the beginning, and made the transition to "Mr. Baggins" as they gained respect for him.
In the culture I'm thinking of, a last name only is not a mark of disrespect, but a semi-familiar form - as with Watson and Holmes, for example. I don't think it would be considered appropriate to express a sense of 'looking down on' a hired hand anyway. The Dwarves, like well-educated Englishmen (actually, they seem more like well-educated foreigners trying to treat Bilbo as they think an Englishman would expect to be treated!), use the correct business form of address with 'Mr. Baggins'. I think my main point is that in this formal culture, you don't change the way you address someone to indicate your opinion about them. There's a correct title for everyone, and you stick with it.
You may be right that the dwarves, having been introduced as comic characters, can't really support a lot of extra baggage concerning titles later on in the story. But maybe dwarves never use honorifics at all? I don't know enough about them in other parts of Tolkien's work to know whether any are ever addressed as King So-and-So, or Lord So-and-So. Dain certainly isn't, in this story. He's always just called Dain, or when someone wants to be really formal, Dain son of Nain. In a similar way, the formal address for Thorin is Thorin Oakenshield. Is that just the dwarf cultural norm, perhaps?
I was always interested in the screenwriters' choice to have Elrond addressed as "Lord Elrond" in the New Line films, something the book never does. I wonder if they decided that just calling him "Elrond" conveyed too little respect, given how undeveloped his character and history are in the film version. Likewise they dropped the Hobbit-y "Halfelven" cognomen!
In the book, he's often called 'Master Elrond', but maybe the screenwriters thought that would sound a little odd - in the films, 'Master' is mostly used to address hobbits. I kind of like 'Master Elrond', though, because it makes me think of the Master of an Oxford college, and Tom Shippey always likes to compare Elrond to a senior academic, and the Council of Elrond to a rather out-of-control faculty meeting!
In fact, Elrond's character is quite developed in the films, although in a quite different way from the book. He's less the bookish scholar, and more the hard-headed strategist. The whole 'half-elven' idea was dropped from the movies, as far as I recall. Arwen's fate was implied to be the fate of any elf who chose to give herself to a mortal.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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