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karlj89
Registered User
Jul 4 2009, 11:15am
Post #1 of 7
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Chapter 4 in ROTK Extended Edition
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This is the chapter when Saruman dies. At one point in the scene, Saruman pulls out his palantir and speaks to Gandalf from the top of Orthanc
'Something festers in the heart of Middle-Earth, something you have failed to see, but the great eye has seen it. Even now, he presses his advantage. You're all going to die!'
Saruman sounds like he is talking about something massive that could have a big affect on Gandalf and the fellowship, but watching the rest of film, I can't work out what it is. The Corsairs of Umbar could seem likely but it dosent fit in the context of 'something festers in the heart of Middle-Earth' and furthermore, Gandalf appears to know about them as he tells Aragorn to find them. My best guess is that Saruman is concerning the corrupt Denethor and his Palantir but it still dosen't seem to fit. Any other ideas?
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frederica bolger
Lorien
Jul 4 2009, 11:40am
Post #2 of 7
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...that he meant Denethor being taken over by the Dark Lord (he must know as he has the palantir, and Denethor uses one to talk to Sauron). On the other hand, that is later only alluded to with 'did you think the eyes of the White Tower were blind?' I suppose as this scene was then cut it was less important to connect all the loose threads.
Rain may fall and wind may blow
And many miles be still to go
But under a tall tree I will lie
And watch the clouds go sailing by.
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overlithe64
Rivendell
Jul 4 2009, 10:27pm
Post #3 of 7
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I just assumed that as with Denethor that the Dark Lord was showing Saruman what he wished him to see. Was he seeing truth or twisted portions of it? Was The Dark Lord just feeding him images of his victory and his great strength to continue to convince him that there was no way but to ally with him? Those images would be of despair and defeat to say Denethor, dragging him further into despair and complacency; but to Saruman they would have meant his collaborative victory...With his use of voice to sway, whether true or not it seems only logical that he would be given information to use in order to attempt to sway and deceive the remaining forces of good that their plight was indeed hopeless. So was Saruman simply feeding them a line?
I am obsessed, but I am in excellent company.
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weaver
Half-elven
Jul 5 2009, 4:44pm
Post #4 of 7
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I think you're new, so I'll start out by saying hi and glad you wandered in!
I like overlithe64's response below that what we have here is Sauron messing with Saruman through the Palantir in the place of him messing with Denethor's head in the books -- in both cases, a great person is brought down by seeing something that's misleading...which feeds his paranoia.
Saruman, being Saruman, doesn't just give into despair like Denethor, though -- he can't resist the urge to twist the knife a bit and drag others down with him. So he uses what he's seen as a taunt to his other foes...
All IMHO, of course!
Hope to see more of you around here -- please dive into the regular discussions going on -- or start more of your own as you have here!
Weaver
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jul 5 2009, 8:29pm
Post #5 of 7
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and the impending fall of Minas Tirith. Whatever Saruman is looking at in the palantir, I think it must be related to what Pippin sees when he looks into it later. That's why it was "strangely fortunate" that Pippin did find the palantir - because it gave him "a glimpse of the Enemy's plan", which I guess would be much the same information that Saruman had had and was taunting them about.
It's what Pippin sees in the palantir that moves the story forward to the new location of Minas Tirith, which has hardly been mentioned before and will soon be the focus of attention. And I suspect that Saruman's words were meant to be a first hint of this plot-point.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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sador
Half-elven
Jul 6 2009, 6:02am
Post #6 of 7
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The obvious answer, is of course Denethor
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But Saruman's words might have several layers.
In a previous post I suggested five other options (no. 4 has actually two). Neither of them contradicts the simple understanding about Denethor, and they are not mutually exclusive. But it might serve as food for thought.
And welcome to TORn, karlj89!
"We may not understand him, but that old bird understands us, I am sure." - Balin.
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Nuradar
Rohan
Jul 6 2009, 11:29am
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this has always been my interpretation, too.
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