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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 24 2009, 6:22am
Post #1 of 33
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Fire and Water: The Battle of Laketown
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1. Where were the guards? Why did it take a civilian to realize that the town would shortly suffer attack?
2. Evidently Smaug was not too pleased to find the bridge destroyed, on Bard's advice. What strategic value would a land-attack have had for a dragon? Why did he prefer it to his Plan B of aerial warfare? What disadvantage might Smaug have been trying to avoid with a land approach?
3. Might the bowmen have any strategy in mind for shooting arrows at an armored creature, beyond the rather narrow hope of hitting a bare spot? What else might arrows accomplish? Where would you aim, if you didn't know about the bare spot?
4. Why a yew bow? Does anyone know about archery, or the properties of yew wood, enough to answer this?
5. Comments on the magical black arrow? Why black? How might Bard feel, in after days, about losing this heirloom that he could always get back before? Any significance to it being a dwarf-made arrow?
6. What strategms might you have used under the same circumstances?
7. What are the advantages and disadvantages of evacuating the women and children to boats in the market center?
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jun 24 2009, 6:47am
Post #2 of 33
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1. Where were the guards? Why did it take a civilian to realize that the town would shortly suffer attack?
Maybe the guards just aren't realizing what they're seeing, whereas some civilian does.
2. Evidently Smaug was not too pleased to find the bridge destroyed, on Bard's advice. What strategic value would a land-attack have had for a dragon? Why did he prefer it to his Plan B of aerial warfare? What disadvantage might Smaug have been trying to avoid with a land approach?
I had always assumed that it meant that although Smaug could fly, he couldn't fly that well. I guess maybe his head and forward talons make him almost invincible in combat, but if he had to fly and couldn't land, all he could do was strafe - devastating, but it could be far worse.
3. Might the bowmen have any strategy in mind for shooting arrows at an armored creature, beyond the rather narrow hope of hitting a bare spot? What else might arrows accomplish? Where would you aim, if you didn't know about the bare spot?
You would think that eyes and nostrils and such would be vulnerable - Smaug is big enough that I doubt an arrow to the eye or nose would be fatal, but getting a fleck of dust in a human's eye is very irritating, and it might send the dragon away or make him decide that it's not worth the trouble.
How Bard's arrow actually manages to kill the beast demands some explanation, actually.
4. Why a yew bow? Does anyone know about archery, or the properties of yew wood, enough to answer this?
The Scots made their bows out of yew.
5. Comments on the magical black arrow? Why black? How might Bard feel, in after days, about losing this heirloom that he could always get back before? Any significance to it being a dwarf-made arrow?
It's a momento to the civilization of Dale. Of course, its expendature makes the new Dale possible!
7. What are the advantages and disadvantages of evacuating the women and children to boats in the market center?
I don't understand it actually. Boats trying to get away = targets.
The paleobotanist is back!
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sador
Gondolin
Jun 24 2009, 11:54am
Post #3 of 33
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1. Where were the guards? Why did it take a civilian to realize that the town would shortly suffer attack?
Was Bard a civilian? I always had the impression he was one of the guards; perhaps an officer.
He does seem to be considered a military leader.
2. Evidently Smaug was not too pleased to find the bridge destroyed, on Bard's advice. What strategic value would a land-attack have had for a dragon? Why did he prefer it to his Plan B of aerial warfare? What disadvantage might Smaug have been trying to avoid with a land approach?
Beren IV's argument is correct - dragons naturally fight on ground, the wings being a relatively late addition. See also the description of Smaug creeping up from Dale in 'An Unexpected Party'.
And it could be that Smaug knows of the hollow patch in his army (although he foolishly forgot it when bragging to Bilbo and again when enjoying he descent on the town).
If nothing else - when fighting on ground he can stop for a moment and have a snack. If he's in the air, he'll need to land for this.
3. Might the bowmen have any strategy in mind for shooting arrows at an armored creature, beyond the rather narrow hope of hitting a bare spot? What else might arrows accomplish? Where would you aim, if you didn't know about the bare spot?
It's far better than doing nothing; and the eyes should be vulnerable - even Shelob's were!
4. Why a yew bow? Does anyone know about archery, or the properties of yew wood, enough to answer this?
I don't. I wonder if brenno does.
5. Comments on the magical black arrow? Why black?
Black is Beautiful.
How might Bard feel, in after days, about losing this heirloom that he could always get back before?
Well, that was relatively a small price to pay for a kingdom!
Any significance to it being a dwarf-made arrow?
Of course! Everyone remembers that Bilbo found the weak spot, and Bard shot at it. But who made the arrow?
6. What strategms might you have used under the same circumstances?
I would probably panic.
7. What are the advantages and disadvantages of evacuating the women and children to boats in the market center?
If Bard's idea of cutting the bridge hadn't been followed, it would be the logical thing to do, wouldn't it? Just shows you that it often not clever to utilise both plan A and plan B.
I suppose the idea was that they were afraid of collapsing houses, and widespread fires. Women and children should be evacuated to safety!
But the downside of this is that they are targets, especially once the dragon is in the air.
"We always elected master from among the old and wise, and have not endured the rule of mere fighting men." - the Master of Lake-town.
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Twit
Menegroth
Jun 24 2009, 1:20pm
Post #4 of 33
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1. Where were the guards? Why did it take a civilian to realize that the town would shortly suffer attack?
The guards as we know are probably sitting around, some might be looking at the Lonely Mountain and generally gossiping. There wouldn't have been many on duty.
I didn't realise Bard was a civilian, I assumed he was part of the guard but more serious about it than the others.
2. Evidently Smaug was not too pleased to find the bridge destroyed, on Bard's advice. What strategic value would a land-attack have had for a dragon? Why did he prefer it to his Plan B of aerial warfare? What disadvantage might Smaug have been trying to avoid with a land approach?
Well his belly wouldn't have been on show (I'm assuming he knows it is more vulnerable) if he was on land, plus there would be no-where to run with him on the bridge, he could have destroyed the town far easier. Maybe he can get more fire out if he's standing still rather than using energy to fly as well.
3. Might the bowmen have any strategy in mind for shooting arrows at an armored creature, beyond the rather narrow hope of hitting a bare spot? What else might arrows accomplish? Where would you aim, if you didn't know about the bare spot?
I would aim for his stomach some-where (not really knowing where his heart might be). Perhaps they do know where a dragon's heart is and could aim for it. To be honest though I think maybe it was just to try and put him off, hurt him some how, although perhaps Bard could argue that he knew it would enrage Smaug so much that he might make a mistake.
4. Why a yew bow? Does anyone know about archery, or the properties of yew wood, enough to answer this?
The English long bows were made of yew. There was a shortage of yew back in the day so I imagine it would be a valuable weapon (reminds me of Bilbo's shirt)
Yew trees are very symbolic, they live for hundreds of years, (some are about 2000 years old) are evergreen (which means alot when you live through hard winters) and they are often planted in church yards and graveyards. I suspect it is strong and bendy.
Thrushes eat the berries.
(I would like to point out that I went to Wikipedia for help on this, but when I read that they are spread by Thrushes eating the berries I got a bit excited)
5. Comments on the magical black arrow? Why black? How might Bard feel, in after days, about losing this heirloom that he could always get back before? Any significance to it being a dwarf-made arrow?
Bard is grim, black seems to fit his profile, I imagine him in dark (black) clothes. It also matches the target's colour.
6. What strategms might you have used under the same circumstances?
I would have legged it out over the bridge to the other side the minute I heard some one saying dragon. And hid. (Having first given Bard his black arrow and pointing him out to the Thrush)
7. What are the advantages and disadvantages of evacuating the women and children to boats in the market center?
They are on water, so can get to land. Gets them out of the way. (nothing worse than children and women wailing when you're trying to aim at a dragon)
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jun 24 2009, 2:03pm
Post #5 of 33
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1. Where were the guards? Why did it take a civilian to realize that the town would shortly suffer attack?
The guards were probably slack and complacent, like the Master. I wonder if Bard is a kind of freelance guard, keeping an eye on things without any official role?
2. Evidently Smaug was not too pleased to find the bridge destroyed, on Bard's advice. What strategic value would a land-attack have had for a dragon? Why did he prefer it to his Plan B of aerial warfare? What disadvantage might Smaug have been trying to avoid with a land approach?
I like to bear in mind that Tolkien is describing a scene inspired by legends that were themselves probably based on volcanic eruptions. The arrival of Smaug is very like an erupting volcano - the light coming and going for a few nights before, and then the intense light in the darkness. Destroying the bridge would prevent the flow of lava onto the town, and this does seem to help against Smaug. But the wooden town is still threatened by fire from the sky, which also eventually arrives in the shape of the flying Smaug. There's even a reference later to the aftereffects of the attack: "Many took ill of wet and cold and sorrow that night, and afterwards died, who had escaped uninjured from the ruin of the town," which also makes me think of the aftereffects of the gases produced by a volcanic eruption.
Of course, Tolkien doesn't intend his readers to think that Smaug is just a volcanic eruption - but I do think that his description of Smaug's attack is inspired by one.
3. Might the bowmen have any strategy in mind for shooting arrows at an armored creature, beyond the rather narrow hope of hitting a bare spot? What else might arrows accomplish? Where would you aim, if you didn't know about the bare spot?
They just felt the need to fight back against an unimaginable attack. I doubt whether aiming really came into it.
4. Why a yew bow? Does anyone know about archery, or the properties of yew wood, enough to answer this?
I know that the traditional English longbow was made of yew. I'm pretty sure Robin Hood never used anything else! The Wikipedia article on the Longbow has some information about the specific properties of this wood, and mentions that mature yew trees almost disappeared from Europe in the late 1500s, due to its popularity in the manufacture of longbows!
5. Comments on the magical black arrow? Why black? How might Bard feel, in after days, about losing this heirloom that he could always get back before?
It fits right into the fairytale convention of the magical object that finds its one true purpose at just the right time. I'm not sure why it's black, except that it seems to fit with Bard's own dark, quiet grimness. There's nothing showy about Bard, but he's solid deep down. He's a proto-Aragorn, I think, an early example of the saying that "all that is gold does not glitter".
As for losing his heirloom, I suppose we could say that it had come down to him for this very purpose, and was destroyed fulfilling its destiny. Like Merry's sword, when he wields it against the Witch-King.
Any significance to it being a dwarf-made arrow?
Perhaps it was made specifically by the Dwarves for this one enemy, in the days when they first fought against the dragon. Again, it's like Merry's sword, which also happened to be facing the very foe it had been designed for, long ages before.
6. What strategms might you have used under the same circumstances?
Getting into (or at least onto) the water seems the best bet. Bard's decision to cut the bridges probably made the greatest difference to the people's survival.
7. What are the advantages and disadvantages of evacuating the women and children to boats in the market center?
Is the market-pool in the centre of the town? I imagined it at the edge of the town, probably the edge nearest the shore. It would be the easiest to access, I suppose, to allow traders to pull up close, so it would be the easiest place to get the women and children afloat.
Thanks, Dreamdeer. Good questions!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Jun 24 2009, 3:02pm
Post #6 of 33
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1. Where were the guards? Why did it take a civilian to realize that the town would shortly suffer attack?
Well, the text says the guards kept very little watch because 'it had been long since there was much need of them'.
2. Evidently Smaug was not too pleased to find the bridge destroyed, on Bard's advice. What strategic value would a land-attack have had for a dragon? Why did he prefer it to his Plan B of aerial warfare? What disadvantage might Smaug have been trying to avoid with a land approach?
I've often wondered about this myself......
I can only surmise that Smaug was hoping to crawl across the bridge & feared that a sudden (crash) landing upon the quays of Lake-town would cause him to crash straight through the town & into the water.
3. Might the bowmen have any strategy in mind for shooting arrows at an armored creature, beyond the rather narrow hope of hitting a bare spot? What else might arrows accomplish? Where would you aim, if you didn't know about the bare spot?
Why would the bowmen even know that the dragon had a stomach/breast covered in jewels?
At first, wouldn't they expect that Smaug had a soft underbelly like all other dragons and therefore aim there?
How would they know otherwise? Certainly not from the regularly scheduled tours of Erebor......
It isn't until the thrush tells Bard to shoot at the hollow of the breast that it all clicks into place & they become aware that Smaug has a 'breastplate' of sorts.
4. Why a yew bow? Does anyone know about archery, or the properties of yew wood, enough to answer this?
Yew is a hardwood & therefore arrows go farther, harder & faster when yew is compressed.
5. Comments on the magical black arrow? Why black?
Why not?
What other color would be appropriate?
The pink arrow?
Perhaps red only.
How might Bard feel, in after days, about losing this heirloom that he could always get back before?
Becoming king of Dale probably lessened the blow.
As Aragorn said "He who can not throw away a treasure at need is in fetters."
Any significance to it being a dwarf-made arrow?
Well, we are told that the Dwarves made the best weapons.
6. What strategms might you have used under the same circumstances?
I would have probably waited for a bird to tell me where to shoot my magic arrow too.
7. What are the advantages and disadvantages of evacuating the women and children to boats in the market center?
It sure beats leaving them on a bunch of flammable wood in the middle of a lake that they can't get off of while a fire-breathing dragon is approaching.
The Ultimate Tolkien Trivia Quiz: http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/story.php?title=so-you-want-to-be-tolkien-geek
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 24 2009, 4:17pm
Post #7 of 33
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1. Where were the guards? Why did it take a civilian to realize that the town would shortly suffer attack?
I'm not sure what you mean by guards. Bard is the captain of a company of archers, so he's not exactly a civilian. On the other hand, he wasn't on duty when he saw the dragon and gave the warning. There are guards by the bridge, presumably, but they aren't assigned to look north. The Elfking is wiser, and has sent spies up the lake to observe what happens. The Master is not so wise.
2. Evidently Smaug was not too pleased to find the bridge destroyed, on Bard's advice. What strategic value would a land-attack have had for a dragon? Why did he prefer it to his Plan B of aerial warfare? What disadvantage might Smaug have been trying to avoid with a land approach?
No exposure of his underbelly! Perhaps he's not quite certain it's well armored. Also, more physical devastation, rather than reliance on fire and tail from the air.
3. Might the bowmen have any strategy in mind for shooting arrows at an armored creature, beyond the rather narrow hope of hitting a bare spot? What else might arrows accomplish? Where would you aim, if you didn't know about the bare spot?
Remember Legolas and the troll in the movies? Shoot for the open mouth. Of course, the troll didn't breath fire when his mouth was open. It would take a brave archer to get off a shot knowing that fire was on its way. The archers could also try for the eyes, or just hope for a weakness in the armor.
4. Why a yew bow? Does anyone know about archery, or the properties of yew wood, enough to answer this?
No, but I can Google. According to Wikipedia:
Yew is the wood of choice for longbow making; the bows are constructed so that the heartwood of yew is on the inside of the bow while the sapwood is on the outside. This takes advantage of the natural properties of yew wood since the heartwood is able to withstand compression while the sapwood is elastic and allows the bow to stretch. Both tend to return to their original straightness when the arrow is released.
5. Comments on the magical black arrow? Why black? How might Bard feel, in after days, about losing this heirloom that he could always get back before? Any significance to it being a dwarf-made arrow?
I've always assumed it was a metal arrow of some kind, since Bard thought it may have come "from the forges of the true king under the Mountain," and that it was black either because it was painted to protect the metal or because it naturally oxidized. It's not clear to me that it is magical, although it could be -- which is more typical of the ambiguous magic we often see in LotR than of the (dare I say it?) flamboyant magic we often see in The Hobbit.
6. What strategms might you have used under the same circumstances?
Hey, I'm not arguing with what worked.
7. What are the advantages and disadvantages of evacuating the women and children to boats in the market center?
"Women and children first" is an attempt to make sure the next generation survives, even if this one must die to save them. But what about old people and invalids? In some cultures they choose to die rather than slow down the tribe.
The dragon doesn't seem to be focusing on the boats, so evacuation of noncombatants is a good strategy if, and only if, a combatant can kill the dragon in the meantime.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 24 2009, 4:21pm
Post #8 of 33
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Excellent points on how Smaug's basic structure dictates his battle preferences.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 24 2009, 4:24pm
Post #9 of 33
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You and Twit are right, Sador, and I was wrong. Bard was not, after all, a civilian. Still, I can't help but wonder if the guards were drinking again.
Good point about not enacting contradictory plans. Part of the chaos of having contradictory leaders.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 24 2009, 4:25pm
Post #10 of 33
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You have certainly given the best answer so far on the Yew bow, though the others answered well as well. You taught me much I didn't know--even a thrush connection!
And as I said, you were right the first time. Bard was not a civilian. Just not a guard. I was wrong.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 24 2009, 4:28pm
Post #11 of 33
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Your comments on Smaug's volcanic nature become more and more fascinating!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 24 2009, 4:29pm
Post #12 of 33
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Good point about the houses being flammable.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 24 2009, 4:32pm
Post #13 of 33
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Good answers! And I'm glad to learn how Yew's specific properties predispose it for bow-making.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 24 2009, 4:34pm
Post #14 of 33
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Regarding Bard's arrow, I found its complete immersion into Smaug--fletch and all--most uncanny and atypical. Which made me think of magic, that it burrowed in of its own accord, seeking the heart like a shard of a morgul blade might do.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 24 2009, 4:43pm
Post #15 of 33
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Good point about the strafing.
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Just because Smaug could fly doesn't mean he could hover like a helicopter. In which case, he was reduced to attacking on the fly, turning, attacking again, turning, and so on, which slowed down the whole process.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 24 2009, 4:47pm
Post #16 of 33
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Interesting connection between thrushes and yews!//
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 24 2009, 4:50pm
Post #17 of 33
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Smaug moves more quickly over ground than lava.
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I generally like the idea of analogizing Smaug and the Lonely Mountain to a volcano, but perhaps you are carrying it too far.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 24 2009, 5:01pm
Post #18 of 33
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Heavy hunting arrows penetrate better
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than light target-shooting arrows. I'm not saying it isn't magical -- it's logical that it would be -- I'm just saying it isn't obviously magical, like, for example, an arrow that changes direction in the air (hey, if smoke rings can do it, why not arrows?).
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Twit
Menegroth
Jun 24 2009, 6:10pm
Post #19 of 33
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it occurred to me that the 'magic' could be the revenge Bilbo talks about in Smaug's chamber. A Dwarf made arrow shot by a man from Dale could be stuffed full of revenge.
Of course it could just be that by pulling the longbow right back to his ear he made the arrow fly just that little bit faster..
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
Jun 24 2009, 6:18pm
Post #20 of 33
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1. Where were the guards? Why did it take a civilian to realize that the town would shortly suffer attack?
Drinking and laughing by the fire in their hut like they were when the Dwarves and Hobbit floated up into the Lake. :o)
Bard was "captain" of a "company of archers", not really a civilian, although he appears to be off-duty and watching the stars with other townspeople when Smaug approaches.
2. Evidently Smaug was not too pleased to find the bridge destroyed, on Bard's advice. What strategic value would a land-attack have had for a dragon? Why did he prefer it to his Plan B of aerial warfare? What disadvantage might Smaug have been trying to avoid with a land approach?
Maybe when he sprays fire it’s hard to get it to shoot straight downwards. Plus, as someone else pointed out, it may be easier to grab your snack from the ground than from the air.
3. Might the bowmen have any strategy in mind for shooting arrows at an armored creature, beyond the rather narrow hope of hitting a bare spot? What else might arrows accomplish? Where would you aim, if you didn't know about the bare spot?
They could shoot for the eyes or the open mouth. If nothing else it might annoy the dragon enough that it would encourage him to give up, or help maintain your position.
5. Comments on the magical black arrow? Why black?
Tolkien tends to favor black, white, and gray, as associations with good. I could see him choosing a green arrow, too. Bard is grim, though, so black it is.
How might Bard feel, in after days, about losing this heirloom that he could always get back before?
Surely he considered it well-spent.
Any significance to it being a dwarf-made arrow?
It reminds me of the choice of all races to be part of the Fellowship in LOTR. The free peoples all contribute to evil’s demise, except there are no Elves involved here.
6. What strategms might you have used under the same circumstances?
I probably wouldn’t have been allowed to be involved. Women and children were hustled to safety. I might have had to clock a guard on the head, steal his outfit, and call myself Helmdern or something if I wanted to have a say in what was going on. Even then, I’d probably go along with what Bard wanted to do.
7. What are the advantages and disadvantages of evacuating the women and children to boats in the market center?
I thought this was strange, too. How are they going to get away if they’re locked in like that?
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
(This post was edited by GaladrielTX on Jun 24 2009, 6:19pm)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 24 2009, 8:09pm
Post #21 of 33
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I like the picture of Smaug struggling to direct his fire where he wants. Come to think of it, if he's flying and he suddenly ducks his head down, that changes the windstream over him, and could send him tumbling downward until he stopped flaming and corrected his course. You may be onto something!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 24 2009, 8:28pm
Post #22 of 33
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Wouldn't the expulsion of flames have a kickback effect, pushing Smaug in the opposite direction? If he didn't have his feet on the ground, and if he is really light enough to fly (bird-like hollow bones, skinny body), that could really throw him back a bit, like turning on a jet engine going in exactly the wrong direction.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jun 24 2009, 9:50pm
Post #23 of 33
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Yes, the physics doesn't bear thinking about! //
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They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 25 2009, 3:09am
Post #24 of 33
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So perhaps the only way he could both fly and throw flame at the same time, would be to make short bursts of flame, and correct his flight pattern immediately after each one.
Very inefficient! No wonder he preferred attacking via land.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
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Jun 25 2009, 3:22am
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Black arrows and Numenorean blades
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Your comparison of Bard's black arrow to Merry's sword is a link Rateliff makes, noting that "although his arrow too is ultimately lost, its final act is to exceed all hope by slaying his people's greatest foe, with a sense that it perishes in the act of fulfilling its destiny." He points out the similarity between Bard's words just before shooting the arrow, and the narrator's words regarding Merry's blade just after he disabled the Witch King ("But glad would he have been to know its fate...").
He also found that the "motif of the Black Arrow" was used in Tolkien's earlier "Lay of the Children of Húrin", in the part about Beleg the Bowman's arrow "Dailir" ("Cleaver"), which he always retrieved after shooting it. That arrow was not black, but Rateliff believes this was the source of the idea for Bard's arrow.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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