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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jun 24 2009, 6:57am
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This came up serendipitously in a recent discussion with Curious, and it's something I've been wondering about for a while.
During the Great Journey, the Valar chose a representative from each of the three elven tribes to come to Valinor and see the paradise their people were destined for. The Teleri they chose to be their prophet was Elwë. Elwë of course never returned to Valinor; Melian distracted him, Olwë took his place, and instead Elwë became the king of the Elves in Middle Earth.
I would normally imagine that the Valar would not have chosen random elves to be their prophets; they would have chosen individuals who were good and wise, and who would do a good job at presenting the message of the Valar to their respective peoples. We know fairly little of what Elwë Thingol did apart from rule Doriath up until the time of the Lay of Leithien. From that point onward, up until his death, seemingly everything Thingol did was decidely unwise at best, and morally questionable at worst, contrasting starkly with the enlightened priest-king I would otherwise expect him to be.
1. Why did the Valar choose Elwë to be their prophet?
2. Why did Melian choose him to be her husband?
3. If the Valar and Melian did choose him for good reasons, when and why did he turn into what we know him as in the later parts of the Silmarillion?
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Jun 24 2009, 7:18am
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Unwise, unwise, whatever did Thingol do that was unwise, please expand on that thought! 
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jun 24 2009, 7:28am
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IMO the same qualities that appealed to the Valar also appealed to Melian We aren't told what they were, but it probably amounted to general intelligence and leadership skills.
Thingol had a good run, somewhat tarnished towards the end. It's hard to live through so many tragedies, not to mention trying (and failing) to manage a beautiful and difficult daughter, without making a few mistakes.
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Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 24 2009, 1:30pm
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In The Silmarillion, the Elves of Middle-earth are flawed creatures.
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Thingol is flawed too, but compares favorably to the kinslayers. He's among the best of the bunch until Beren wins the affection of his daughter. The story of his final demise at the hand of the dwarves was not written by J.R.R. Tolkien, so it's unclear how Tolkien would have written it.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 24 2009, 4:54pm
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Elwe Singolo, or Elu Thingol if you prefer, had an incredibly long and successful kingship. Unfortunately, peace is boring. Only his mistakes, therefore, stand out like a swollen red thumb among all the perfectly good fingers.
I imagine that Melwe saw in him the same qualities that made him a top choice in the first place.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jun 25 2009, 10:55pm
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The murder of Thingol in the versions that JRR wrote have the death occurring off-stage.
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Jun 26 2009, 2:07am
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Where is the word 'prophet' ever used? They are called 'ambassadors', not 'prophets'.
The word 'prophet' would imply that the chosen Elves had some sort of ability to foresee the future and/or special mystical/spiritual powers & to my knowledge, Tolkien never calls anyone a 'prophet' in his work, although he does use the somewhat (biblically) interchangable word 'seer' to describe Malbeth. Tolkien also uses the word 'prophecy'. Ambassabor certainly does not equate to 'prophet'......
1. Why did the Valar choose Elwë to be their prophet?
Perhaps Olwe didn't want to go to Aman as an ambassador.
2. Why did Melian choose him to be her husband?
Chose?
You don't chose who you fall in love with.
3. If the Valar and Melian did choose him for good reasons, when and why did he turn into what we know him as in the later parts of the Silmarillion?
I guess that most of what happened to Elwe had to do with getting tied up with the Doom of the Noldor due to sending Beren to get the Silmaril.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jun 26 2009, 5:20pm
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Chose?
You don't chose who you fall in love with.
Yes you do - or, at least, it is certainly possible for a person to decide that they want a certain quality in their spouse to be, and don't need to marry that person if that quality isn't there, even if other elements of affection are.
I guess that most of what happened to Elwe had to do with getting tied up with the Doom of the Noldor due to sending Beren to get the Silmaril.
This is obviously what Tolkien intended in the literary sense, but there is a problem with it: the Doom of Mandos, like all of the rest of the great curses in Tolkien's universe, is brought about by the actions and characters upon whom the Doom is placed, and it affects a lot of other people who aren't part of the Doom either. All or almost all of the characters who succumb to the Doom of Mandos, or the curse that Morgoth places upon Húrin, or any of the others, show some evidence of the character flaw that actually dooms them beforehand, or at least independent of the curse in some way. Thingol seems the only exception: there is no evidence of his flaws until after he sends Beren on the quest.
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Jun 26 2009, 5:35pm
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Have you ever fallen in love?
It's a rather desperate feeling that you can't control. 
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jun 26 2009, 5:56pm
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just because you're yearning for something doesn't mean you have to give into your desire to have it if you know that it's a really bad idea.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 26 2009, 6:09pm
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Are we talking Primary or Secondary World?
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I would agree with Beren in the Primary World -- at least, I think people should strive hard to take some time and do many reality checks before jumping from infatuation to marriage, so that it becomes a choice, at least to some degree. But I might agree with you in Tolkien's Secondary World, because what is the point of a reality check in a romantic fantasy? On the other hand, there are some examples of unhappy marriages even in Tolkien's Secondary World.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 26 2009, 7:14pm
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The very act of sending Beren on the quest reveals Thingol's flaw, which presumably pre-existed that moment.
He deliberately does this to try and cause Beren's death. Is it justifiable to slay someone just for courting your daughter? If so, then why not just stab him where he stood? If not, then sending someone off to something likely to kill him, with the express hope that it does kill him, is murder. At least so said the Bible, when King David sent the husband of the woman he coveted off on a suicide mission.
I would submit that Luthien is Thingol's silmaril. He wants to control who she marries, even to the point of murder.
Elrond's condition laid upon Aragorn does not count in the same league. If Aragorn succeeds, he will likely survive. If he fails, then all of Middle Earth shall fail, and it would be a moot point. More to the point, Elrond's not being obstructive; rather, he wants Aragorn--his foster-son--to live up to his full potential. He wants both Arwen and Aragorn to live up to their full potentials. He acts out of tough love for them both, not out of possessiveness towards one and malice towards the other.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 26 2009, 7:19pm
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Have you ever fallen in love with the wrong person? Have you ever had to vanquish your feelings for the greater good? How about falling in love with someone unavailable, or someone when you yourself are unavailable? If it was all so hopeless as that, then society would make no moral rules regarding marriage--what would be the point? People do have self-control. And so, I presume, do elves, and maiar even more.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Jun 26 2009, 7:22pm)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 26 2009, 7:20pm
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Maeglin really should have controlled his feelings for his kinswoman. The fact that he didn't showed that he was a bad, bad elf.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 26 2009, 7:51pm
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The odd thing is that Beren agrees.
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And that Luthien lets him. Even after they both escape Doriath, they still go after the Silmaril. I don't know why they don't just get married without Daddy's blessing. They're of age.
It's not quite the same as King David, because Bathsheba's husband couldn't say no. But Beren wasn't Thingol's subject, and he could have said no, or Luthien could have forbidden him from saying yes.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 26 2009, 7:57pm
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There's also Erendis and Aldarion,
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who are unhappy for more complicated reasons.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 26 2009, 9:23pm
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I get the impression that getting married without familial blessing just isn't done in Middle Earth. It made Aredhel's marriage to Eol suspect even though she had a child by him. Beren would not have risked disgracing Luthien.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 26 2009, 9:57pm
Post #18 of 49
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Thingol, of all people, knew different.
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Did he seek anyone's blessing before marrying Melian? No.
Of course, Beren may not have known that. But surely Luthien did.
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Jun 27 2009, 12:00am
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Melian doesn't have a mother or father to get a blessing from - no need to ask permission or get a blessing.
Totally different situation.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 27 2009, 12:57am
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Maybe Luthien didn't see it that way.
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After all, she is her mother's daughter, and half Maia.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jun 27 2009, 2:22am
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that if Beren fails, then all of Middle Earth will still fail, albeit in a different context (and not that it has to be Beren, or so Thingol would know anyway, unlike with Aragorn).
Nonetheless, the fact that Thingol has this flaw indicates that he is a dubious choice of an ambassador to the Valar, which brings us right back to my original question: why did the Valar (and Melian) choose him in the first place, and if they chose him for the right reasons, when and why did he go astray?
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jun 27 2009, 2:26am
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I think Lúthien realizes that, together, they can succeed, and indeed, they must - as long as Morgoth holds all three Silmarils, He holds the hope of the world and withholds it from everybody else. Not even the other Valar can stop Him - unless somebody does a little theiving. That I think is why B&L go after the Silmaril anyway: Lúthien at the very least is smart enough to realize this.
I have to wonder what Thingol would have done if Beren had not accepted his challenge, though.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jun 27 2009, 8:55am
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Just recently (I forget where) someone here pointed out that in order for Melian to wed Thingol, she had to assume a physical form, presumably that of an Elf. Hence, any genetic material would be Elven, so Luthien couldn't be "half Maia".
It's unclear where her Elven genes would have come from, though. Another example of Tolkien writing himself into a corner, though it's a pretty picky one, IMO.
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Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 27 2009, 8:41pm
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even if her body is technically all elven. We know it made a difference because of the magical abilities that went with the Maia heritage, right down to Aragorn's healing.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jun 28 2009, 8:10am
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Ok, she could shape-shift, but Beren could, too, and he isn't even an Elf.
As for Aragorn, how many generations is he removed from Melian? Cutting that maia heritage in half every generation doesn't leave much. I always assumed he learned healing from growing up in Rivendell; it's an art, not magic. Plus, there's the extra benefit of "the hands of a King..." etc.
The Rohirrim, by Peter Xavier Price
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jun 28 2009, 8:11am)
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