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sador
Gondolin
Jun 18 2009, 8:41pm
Post #1 of 8
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Not at Home, part VIII - Run, river, run
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Bilbo wearies of the treasure long before the dwarves.
“Thorin!” he cried aloud. “What next? We are armed, but what good has any armour ever been against Smaug the Dreadful? This treasure is not yet won back. We are not looking for gold yet, but for a way of escape; and we have tempted fate too long!”
“You speak the truth!” answered Thorin, recovering his wits. “Let us go! I will guide you. Not in a thousand years shall I forget the ways of this palace.”
1. I know Tolkien attributes the difference to the dwarvish affinity to treasure – but are there any other reasons for Bilbo’s be weary so soon? It being his fourth time around? His being tired and dizzy with two falls? His having the most precious item of the hoard in his pocket?
2. What defines the Lonely Mountain as a palace? Do we ever see it’s greatness, like we do with Khazad-dum?
Thorin knew every passage and every turn. They climbed long stairs, and turned and went down wide echoing ways, and turned again and climbed yet more stairs and yet more stairs again... and up, up the dwarves went, and they met no sign of any living thing, only furtive shadows that fled from the approach of their torches fluttering in the draughts.
I wonder how long they actuallt walked? Tolkien mentions towards the end of the chapter, two nights and a day passed between their escaping down the tunnel from Smaug’s attack, and there coming to the Front Gate. That’s more than half the time the Fellowship passed through Moria (but not all of it spent walking) – all the time waiting uncertainly for Smaug’s return!
3. Can you imagine this combination of long, hard toil, together with the terror of a long-deserted place with a dragon about to return home? Can a kid do do? Do you have any recollection of a similar experience?
4. How and where did they sleep – or is this just another thing Tolkien conviniently ignores?
Finally they arrive at Thror’s great chamber – the hall of feasting and council.
They passed through the ruined chamber. Tables were rotting there; chairs and benches were lying there overturned, charred and decaying. Skulls and bones were on the floor among flagons and bowls and drinking-horns and dust.
5. What feeling does this description convey?
6. Does this mean that the dwarves were taken at unawares – or did they make a stand in this hall? Compare this to Thorin’s account in ‘An Unexpected Party’.
7. Looking in the geneological table in Appendix A, I note that none of the Kings’ line – including Dis, who was only ten years old, and Fundin’s unnamed wife – was actually killed by Smaug. How did they all escape?
In Thror’s hall the is a bit of light. Soon they get to the rising of the River Running. A wide road runs beside it.
The River Running flows all the way to the Southren side of the Mountain, and issuing from the Front Gate goes down to Dale, feeds the Long Lake at its confluence with the Forest River, and runs down south (probably joined by other streams coming from Mirkwood – which would account for the Marshes), joining the river Carnen which drains the Iron Hills, and ends in the Inland Sea of Rhun (according to the Map in LotR)
8. It’s time for another obscure question! Why is the river below Esgaroth called after the tributary which flows from the Mountain? Surely the Forset River is the more important source!
9. Where does water of the River Running come from, anyway? Is the area subject to heavy storms of rain and snow at winter? Then why didn’t Dwalin mention that when he complained about the coming winter, two chapters ago?
They finally arrive at the Front Gate, frighten the bats and look down upon Dale.
It is late morning, and Bilbo is hungry and wants breakfast – but he does not feel safe to eat it on the front doorstep. Balin agrees, and suggests the old look-out post as an alternative – but it is five hours march away.
“Dear me!” grumbled the hobbit. “More walking and more climbing before breakfast! I wonder how many breakfasts, an other meals, we have missed inside that nasty clockless, timeless hole?“
“Come, come!” said Thorin laughing – his spirits had begun to rise again, and he rattled the precious stones in his pocket. “Don’t call my palace a nasty hole! You wait till it has been cleaned and decorated!”
10. Isn’t that a nice transformation! What would the old Thorin we knew do, if an undersized burglar spoke that way of his ancestor’s home?
11. Just another cultural quetion – note that Bilbo sees “timeless” as a derogatory term (which poets at least, would see as a compliment), and I suspect Thorin took more offense at the term “hole” than Bilbo meant. What do you think?
However, Bilbo is not comforted, and still fears the dragon is watching. His glum feelings spread to the others, especially Dori and Bombur.
“Come on! Come on!” cried the others. “Let us follow Balin’s path!”
"When they came to Bill Ferny's house they saw that the hedge there was tattered and unkempt, and the windows were all boarded up.
'Do you think you killed him with that apple, Sam?' said Pippin.
'I'm not so hopeful, Mr. Pippin,' said Sam."
Ferny is a small fish; a delinquette, and part-time ruffian.
But this week in the Reading Room - a real dragon is NOT AT HOME.
Join us!
(This post was edited by sador on Jun 18 2009, 8:42pm)
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
Jun 18 2009, 10:50pm
Post #2 of 8
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Fiery Death and a Running River
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“Water was running; children were running
You were running out of time
Under the mountain, a golden fountain
Were you praying at the Lares shrine?
But ohh oh your city lies in dust, my friend
ohh oh your city lies in dust, my friend
“We found you hiding, we found you lying
Choking on the dirt and sand
Your former glories and all the stories
Dragged and washed with eager hands
“But ohh oh your city lies in dust, my friend…
“Water was running; children were running
We found you hiding, we found you lying…
“your city lies in dust
ohh oh your city lies in dust, my friend
“Hot and burning in your nostrils
Pouring down your gaping mouth
Your molten bodies blanket of cinders
Caught in the throes .......
“Ohh oh your city lies in dust, my friend…
“Your city lies in dust
- Siouxsie and the Banshees, “Cities in Dust”
1. I know Tolkien attributes the difference to the dwarvish affinity to treasure – but are there any other reasons for Bilbo’s be weary so soon? It being his fourth time around? His being tired and dizzy with two falls? His having the most precious item of the hoard in his pocket?
D. All of the above. :o)
2. What defines the Lonely Mountain as a palace? Do we ever see it’s greatness, like we do with Khazad-dum?
It’s been a long time since I’ve read the ending. Thorin tells Bilbo (as you note below) that he will appreciate it when it is cleaned and decorated, but I don’t know if Bilbo stuck around for that.
3. Can you imagine this combination of long, hard toil, together with the terror of a long-deserted place with a dragon about to return home? Can a kid do do? Do you have any recollection of a similar experience?
The few times in my relatively tame life that I’ve been in danger of dying were over with quickly. So no, I can’t relate to those long hours of dread.
4. How and where did they sleep – or is this just another thing Tolkien conveniently ignores?
I can’t remember if they have their packs with them or if they left them back in the original tunnel. If they had them with them I imagine they would have camped out on the floor if they slept at all.
They passed through the ruined chamber. Tables were rotting there; chairs and benches were lying there overturned, charred and decaying. Skulls and bones were on the floor among flagons and bowls and drinking-horns and dust.
5. What feeling does this description convey?
Desolation. It makes me think of those poor people at Pompeii and Herculaneum who died when Vesuvius erupted and who the ashes preserved in the very positions they were in when they were covered. I saw a museum exhibit of it once, and it’s very moving.
8. It’s time for another obscure question! Why is the river below Esgaroth called after the tributary which flows from the Mountain? Surely the Forset River is the more important source!
Well, the most densely populated area along these two tributaries seems to be Erebor and Esgaroth. Perhaps the people who named the river came from there and didn’t think about the other tributary.
9. Where does water of the River Running come from, anyway? Is the area subject to heavy storms of rain and snow at winter? Then why didn’t Dwalin mention that when he complained about the coming winter, two chapters ago?
Could it originate as a spring?
“Come, come!” said Thorin laughing – his spirits had begun to rise again, and he rattled the precious stones in his pocket. “Don’t call my palace a nasty hole! You wait till it has been cleaned and decorated!”
10. Isn’t that a nice transformation! What would the old Thorin we knew do, if an undersized burglar spoke that way of his ancestor’s home?
He’s in high spirits. He’s just gotten a look at the treasure. I think in earlier situations he would just brush it off as being beneath him to respond.
11. Just another cultural question – note that Bilbo sees “timeless” as a derogatory term (which poets at least, would see as a compliment), and I suspect Thorin took more offense at the term “hole” than Bilbo meant. What do you think?
I don’t know. I think Thorin still thinks of Bilbo as beneath him enough that Bilbo’s opinions don’t have much sting.
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
(This post was edited by GaladrielTX on Jun 18 2009, 10:51pm)
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 19 2009, 1:16am
Post #3 of 8
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Bilbo wearies of the treasure long before the dwarves.
"Thorin!" he cried aloud. "What next? We are armed, but what good has any armour ever been against Smaug the Dreadful? This treasure is not yet won back. We are not looking for gold yet, but for a way of escape; and we have tempted fate too long!"
"You speak the truth!" answered Thorin, recovering his wits. "Let us go! I will guide you. Not in a thousand years shall I forget the ways of this palace."
1. I know Tolkien attributes the difference to the dwarvish affinity to treasure -- but are there any other reasons for Bilbo's be weary so soon? It being his fourth time around?
Good point.
His being tired and dizzy with two falls?
Another good point.
His having the most precious item of the hoard in his pocket?
Incredibly good point. I don't think Bilbo is immune to the effect of the treasure, although he overcomes the effect later, when he gives the Arkenstone away.
2. What defines the Lonely Mountain as a palace? Do we ever see it's greatness, like we do with Khazad-dum?
Well, the treasure is pretty impressive, and so is the fact that a dragon can wander its halls. And we do get the dwarves' memories of the Lonely Mountain back in the glory days, just as Gimli recalls Khazad-dum in its glory days. Both of them have seen better days.
Thorin knew every passage and every turn. They climbed long stairs, and turned and went down wide echoing ways, and turned again and climbed yet more stairs and yet more stairs again... and up, up the dwarves went, and they met no sign of any living thing, only furtive shadows that fled from the approach of their torches fluttering in the draughts.
I wonder how long they actuallt walked? Tolkien mentions towards the end of the chapter, two nights and a day passed between their escaping down the tunnel from Smaug's attack, and there coming to the Front Gate. That's more than half the time the Fellowship passed through Moria (but not all of it spent walking) -- all the time waiting uncertainly for Smaug's return!
3. Can you imagine this combination of long, hard toil, together with the terror of a long-deserted place with a dragon about to return home? Can a kid do do? Do you have any recollection of a similar experience?
I think most of that time was spent huddling in the tunnel -- "days and days," the narrator called it, which sounded like, and perhaps seemed like, more than two nights and a day. During the walk to the main entrance, Bilbo complains about missing breakfast, but not about missing lunch, dinner, or sleep.
4. How and where did they sleep -- or is this just another thing Tolkien conviniently ignores?
They slept -- although not well -- while they huddled in the tunnel.
Finally they arrive at Thror's great chamber -- the hall of feasting and council.
They passed through the ruined chamber. Tables were rotting there; chairs and benches were lying there overturned, charred and decaying. Skulls and bones were on the floor among flagons and bowls and drinking-horns and dust.
5. What feeling does this description convey?
Yech! Smaug was a lousy housekeeper.
6. Does this mean that the dwarves were taken at unawares -- or did they make a stand in this hall? Compare this to Thorin's account in "An Unexpected Party".
I vote for taken unawares, based on the account given in the first chapter.
7. Looking in the geneological table in Appendix A, I note that none of the Kings’ line --including Dis, who was only ten years old, and Fundin’s unnamed wife -- was actually killed by Smaug. How did they all escape?
Thorin and his young family and friends were out on a picnic. The rest used the secret passageway.
In Thror’s hall the is a bit of light. Soon they get to the rising of the River Running. A wide road runs beside it.
The River Running flows all the way to the Southren side of the Mountain, and issuing from the Front Gate goes down to Dale, feeds the Long Lake at its confluence with the Forest River, and runs down south (probably joined by other streams coming from Mirkwood -- which would account for the Marshes), joining the river Carnen which drains the Iron Hills, and ends in the Inland Sea of Rhun (according to the Map in LotR)
8. It’s time for another obscure question! Why is the river below Esgaroth called after the tributary which flows from the Mountain? Surely the Forset River is the more important source!
Apparently the Long Lake is part of the River Running, perhaps because of a natural dam in the river. The Forest River comes in from the side. The Missouri is longer than the Mississippi when they meet, and yet it joins the Mississippi, and not the other way around.
9. Where does water of the River Running come from, anyway? Is the area subject to heavy storms of rain and snow at winter?
Very likely.
Then why didn’t Dwalin mention that when he complained about the coming winter, two chapters ago?
Why should he? I think he did imply that bad weather was coming, and that they could not stay there forever on the side of the Mountain.
They finally arrive at the Front Gate, frighten the bats and look down upon Dale.
It is late morning, and Bilbo is hungry and wants breakfast -- but he does not feel safe to eat it on the front doorstep. Balin agrees, and suggests the old look-out post as an alternative -- but it is five hours march away.
"Dear me!" grumbled the hobbit. "More walking and more climbing before breakfast! I wonder how many breakfasts, an other meals, we have missed inside that nasty clockless, timeless hole?"
"Come, come!" said Thorin laughing -- his spirits had begun to rise again, and he rattled the precious stones in his pocket. "Don’t call my palace a nasty hole! You wait till it has been cleaned and decorated!"
10. Isn’t that a nice transformation! What would the old Thorin we knew do, if an undersized burglar spoke that way of his ancestor’s home?
Well, it is Smaug's hole now. And of course Thorin himself was moaning about it not that long ago, dying to get out.
11. Just another cultural quetion -- note that Bilbo sees "timeless" as a derogatory term (which poets at least, would see as a compliment), and I suspect Thorin took more offense at the term "hole" than Bilbo meant. What do you think?
I don't think Thorin took offense at all. As for the word "timeless," that depends upon the context.
However, Bilbo is not comforted, and still fears the dragon is watching. His glum feelings spread to the others, especially Dori and Bombur.
"Come on! Come on!" cried the others. "Let us follow Balin’s path!"
If Bilbo had a premonition that the dragon was dead, as some of us speculated, why is he fearing it now? Now that he is out of the cavern, has logic overcome his premonition? Or does he have a different premonition, of a different danger? For a different danger is on its way.
Note this comment: "It's a cold lonesome place," said Bombur. "There may be drink, but I see no sign of food. A dragon would always be hungry in such parts." Does this mean Smaug did not live off Morgoth's taint in the treasure, as I theorized? Or does it mean that Morgoth's taint does not satisfy his hunger, even though it keeps him from dying? Or is Smaug immune from starvation, but not from hunger? Or is this something Tolkien never worried about? I am reminded of how Gollum seems to survive without food in Mordor, although he is always hungry.
(This post was edited by Curious on Jun 19 2009, 1:18am)
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Jun 20 2009, 11:47pm
Post #4 of 8
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1. I know Tolkien attributes the difference to the dwarvish affinity to treasure – but are there any other reasons for Bilbo’s be weary so soon? It being his fourth time around? His being tired and dizzy with two falls? His having the most precious item of the hoard in his pocket?
...as well as hungry and thirsty? Or he's just not that into it! I experienced something similar to this when I visited the Metropolitan Museum of Art a couple of years ago--with a couple of teenagers. They were ready to go after a couple of hours looking around on the first floor and barely any time on the 2nd floor  .
2. What defines the Lonely Mountain as a palace? Do we ever see it’s greatness, like we do with Khazad-dum?
I suppose it simply being the (former) home of a King qualifies it as a palace, right? If I look past the "mouldered...destroyed...befouled...blasted...ruined...", I can imagine the "old adornments" and stairs "smooth, cut out of living rock" and "great doors" and the roof that "sprang high". (Of course, having gotten a visual from the films--that's no big leap of imagination though.)
5. What feeling does this description convey?
No one ever came back.
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sador
Gondolin
Jun 21 2009, 8:44am
Post #5 of 8
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Thorin tells Bilbo (as you note below) that he will appreciate it when it is cleaned and decorated, but I don’t know if Bilbo stuck around for that.
He didn't (as Frodo implies when he talks to Gloin in 'Many Meetings'). But Bilbo did visit the Lonely Mountain long after.
Well, the most densely populated area along these two tributaries seems to be Erebor and Esgaroth. Perhaps the people who named the river came from there and didn’t think about the other tributary. That makes sense.
Could it originate as a spring?
A mere spring becoming a river strong enough to create the Long Lake? I don't think so.
I don't think even very heavy rainfalls would be enough; I would suppose there must be quite a few tributaries coming in from around Dale (although they should have been mentioned, had they been there), or else that the water from the Forset River flowed both North and South around the island of Esgaroth, and the water of the Running River only were responsible for the East side of the Lake, which would still be shallower than the Westren side.
But I'm no expert in hydrology.
I think Thorin still thinks of Bilbo as beneath him enough that Bilbo’s opinions don’t have much sting. Ha!
Was it intended as a pun on Sting, or as a sly remark refering to Bilbo's possessing the Arkenstone?
Either way, it's a good one!
"When they came to Bill Ferny's house they saw that the hedge there was tattered and unkempt, and the windows were all boarded up.
'Do you think you killed him with that apple, Sam?' said Pippin.
'I'm not so hopeful, Mr. Pippin,' said Sam."
Ferny is a small fish; a delinquette, and part-time ruffian.
But this week in the Reading Room - a real dragon is NOT AT HOME.
Join us!
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jun 21 2009, 12:23pm
Post #6 of 8
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'dem bones, 'dem bones, 'dem dry bones...
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"...among flagons and bowls and drinking-horns and dust..."
What an evocative description of a horrible outcome. It really is apparent they were caught at unawares when Smaug attacked. I'll bet Thorin, Balin and the others had guessed what must have happened in that attack, but to see it here had to be devastating.
"...are there any other reasons for Bilbo’s be weary so soon?"
I think at this point... Bilbo's done. He's spent. After 2 encounters with Smaug and the draw to treasure (now gone), not to mention the stress of this entire Quest... he's hit the wall.
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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Twit
Menegroth
Jun 22 2009, 9:41am
Post #7 of 8
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1. I know Tolkien attributes the difference to the dwarvish affinity to treasure – but are there any other reasons for Bilbo’s be weary so soon? It being his fourth time around? His being tired and dizzy with two falls? His having the most precious item of the hoard in his pocket?
Maybe he's just bored, how long have they been stuck underground by now? I suspect the fact that he isn't a Dwarf is enough to make the treasure less appealing and the need for fresh air might now be more important. he 's kept his mind on the fact that they are still, to all intents and purposes trapped, and they don't know when Smaug will return.
2. What defines the Lonely Mountain as a palace? Do we ever see it’s greatness, like we do with Khazad-dum?
Palaces to me seem less fortress like and more statements of money, built to look good, that sort of thing, so I'm not sure.
3. Can you imagine this combination of long, hard toil, together with the terror of a long-deserted place with a dragon about to return home? Can a kid do do? Do you have any recollection of a similar experience?
Yes, I think a child could associate with this, only instead of a dragon it would be a parent about to come and see if they are tucked up in bed, or have finished tidying their room. (Minus I hope, the terror)
I remember having to run over a mile cross country at dusk in order to try and beat my dad home...
4. How and where did they sleep – or is this just another thing Tolkien conviniently ignores?
I supposed they slept a bit in the tunnel, that the bulk of their time was spent in the tunnel and that the treasure and the escape was all in one day. (oops)
Also, they wouldn't know if it was day or night, they could be looking around the treasure at night.
5. What feeling does this description convey?
Sadness, danger, run
6. Does this mean that the dwarves were taken at unawares – or did they make a stand in this hall? Compare this to Thorin’s account in ‘An Unexpected Party’.
I think they were taken unaware. Thorin might have wanted to think they made a stand, and given the chance they would have but they didn't get the opportunity (at that point anyway).
7. Looking in the geneological table in Appendix A, I note that none of the Kings’ line – including Dis, who was only ten years old, and Fundin’s unnamed wife – was actually killed by Smaug. How did they all escape?
Maybe they were sent away before - evacuated.
10. Isn’t that a nice transformation! What would the old Thorin we knew do, if an undersized burglar spoke that way of his ancestor’s home?
He is drunk from the treasure - he would still berate Bilbo normally.
11. Just another cultural quetion – note that Bilbo sees “timeless” as a derogatory term (which poets at least, would see as a compliment), and I suspect Thorin took more offense at the term “hole” than Bilbo meant. What do you think?
I thought he hadn't taken offence. Yes calling his palace a hole would be more insulting than timeless. I call my sons' bedroom a pit sometimes, in much the same way as Bilbo calls the palace a hole.
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
Jun 22 2009, 12:35pm
Post #8 of 8
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The word choice of "sting" was unintentional.
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I noticed it after typing it, though, and decided to let it stand. Thanks for assuming the best about me, though.
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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