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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jun 11 2009, 9:13am
Post #1 of 18
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**Hobbit Discussion – Inside Information** Part 4 – Third time pays for all
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Bilbo's hobbit sense returns as he begins to realize what he's done and what's to come after his second encounter with Smaug.
... "So Bilbo told them all he could remember, and he confessed that he had a nasty feeling that the dragon guessed too much from his riddles added to the camps and the ponies. "I am sure he knows we came from Lake-town and had help from there; and I have a horrible feeling that his next move may be in that direction. I wish to goodness I had never said that about Barrel-rider; it would make even a blind rabbit in these parts think of the Lake-men."
... 'Well, well! It cannot be helped, and it is difficult not to slip in talking to a dragon, or so I have always heard," said Balin anxious to comfort him. "I think you did very well, if you ask me---you found out one very useful thing at any rate, and got home alive, and that is more than most can say who have had words with the likes of Smaug. It may be a mercy and a blessing yet to know of the bare patch in the old Worm's diamond waistcoat."
After Bilbo tells the dwarves the good and the bad of what happened in that hole, it was Balin who reassures Bilbo that he did well with Smaug. With all that's going on, Balin's affection and reverence for this hobbit is engaging.
Bilbo's in a panic because senses… he KNOWS what's coming next! The dwarves have not talked with Smaug, so they don't realize his logic, determination, his horrific anger and his guile. Bilbo does. Could falling under a dragon's spell leave some residual understanding with the victim? A form of symbiosis?
... " …they all began discussing dragon-slayings historical, dubious and mythical, and the various sorts of stabs and jabs and undercuts, and the different arts, devices and stratagems by which they had been accomplished. The general opinion was that catching a dragon napping was not as easy as it sounded, and the attempt to stick one or prod one asleep was more likely to end in disaster than a bold frontal attack. All the while they talked the thrush listened, till at last when the stars began to peep forth, it silently spread it wings and flew away. And all the while they talked and the shadows lengthened Bilbo became more and more unhappy and his foreboding grew.
... At last he interrupted them. "I am sure we are very unsafe here," he said, "and I don't see the point of sitting here. The dragon has withered all the pleasant green, and anyway the night has come and it is cold. But I feel it in my bones that this place will be attacked again. Smaug knows now how I came down to his hall, and you can trust him to guess where the other end of the tunnel is. He will break all this side of the Mountain to bits, if necessary, to stop up our entrance, and if we are smashed with it the better he will like it."
... "You are very gloomy, Mr. Baggins!" said Thorin. "Why has not Smaug blocked the lower end, the, if he is so eager to keep us out? He has not, or we should have heard him." [P'raps Bilbo senses that Smaug has left the cave and is circling high above]
... "I don't know, I don't know—because at first he wanted to try and lure me in again, I suppose, and now perhaps because he is waiting till after tonight's hunt, or because he does not want to damage his bedroom if he can help it—but I wish you would not argue. Smaug will be coming out at any minute now, and our only hope is to get well in the tunnel and shut the door."
... The talk turned to the dragon's wicked words about the dwarves. Bilbo wished he had never heard them, or at least that he could feel quite certain that the dwarves now were absolutely honest when they declared that they had never thought at all about what would happen after the treasure had been won. "We knew it would be a desperate venture," said Thorin, "and we know that still; and I still think that when we have won it will be time enough to think what to do about it. As for your share, Mr. Baggins, I assure you we are more than grateful and you shall choose your own fourteenth, as soon as we have anything to divide. I am sorry if you are worried about transport, and I admit the difficulties are great—the lands have not become less wild with the passing of time, rather the reverse—but we will do whatever we can for you, and take our share of the cost when the time comes. Believe me or not as you like!"
What do you think about Bilbo telling the dwarves what Smaug had said about not trusting them? Is he looking for reassurance, or is he alerting them to his awareness of their possible deception. Either way, Smaug's poisonous words are still at work.
While the dwarves talked at length about how to slay a dragon, the thrush listened intently. The Inside Information wasn't just for the dwarves. While it would seem that it was meant for them, the thrush understood its real purpose.
Then the topic turned to the treasure. It could be that the description of the treasure was saved for this moment… for the longing of the dwarves. It would have diluted the drama of their reflection of what they hoped to find within the cavern here. We'll have to watch for these to appear in the film.
... "From that the talk turned to the great hoard itself and to the things that Thorin and Balin remembered. They wondered if they were still lying there unharmed in the hall below… …But fairest of all was the great white gem, which the dwarves had found beneath the roots of the Mountain, the Heart of the Mountain, the Arkenstone of Thrain.
... "The Arkenstone! The Arkenstone!" murmured Thorin in the dark, half dreaming with his chin upon his knees. "It was like a globe with a thousand facets; it shone like silver in the firelight, like water in the sun, like snow under the stars, like rain upon the Moon!"
... But the enchanted desire of the hoard had fallen from Bilbo. All through their talk he was only half listening to them. He sat nearest to the door with one ear cocked for any beginnings of a sound without, his other was alert for echoes beyond the murmurs of the dwarves, for any whisper of a movement from far below.
... Darkness grew deeper and he grew ever more uneasy. "Shut the door!" he begged them. "I fear that dragon in my marrow. I like this silence far less than the uproar of last night. Shut the door before it is too late!"
... Something in his voice gave the dwarves an uncomfortable feeling. Slowly Thorin shook off his dreams and getting up he kicked away the stone that wedged the door. Then they thrust upon it, and it closed with a snap and a clang. No trace of a keyhole was there left on the inside. They were shut in the Mountain!
... And not a moment too soon. They had hardly gone any distance down the tunnel when a blow smote the side of the Mountain like the crash of battering-rams made of forest oaks and swung by giants. The rock boomed, the walls cracked and stones fell from the roof on their heads. What would have happened if the door had still been open I don't like to think. They fled further down the tunnel glad to be still alive, while behind them outside they heard the roar and rumble of Smaug's fury. He was breaking rocks to pieces, smashing wall and cliff with the lashings of his huge tail, till their little lofty camping ground, the scorched grass, the thrush's stone, the snail-covered walls, the narrow ledge, and all disappeared in a jumble of smithereens, and an avalanche of splintered stones fell over the cliff into the valley below.
... Smaug had left his lair in silent stealth, quietly soared into the air, and then floated heavy and slow in the dark like a monstrous crow, down the wind towards the west of the Mountain, in the hopes of catching unawares something or somebody there, and of spying the outlet to the passage which the thief had used. This was the outburst of his wrath when he could find nobody and see nothing, even where he guessed the outlet must actually be.
... After he had let off his rage in this way he felt better and he thought in his heart that he would not be troubled again from that direction. In the meanwhile he had further vengeance to take. "Barrel-rider!" he snorted. "Your feet came from the waterside and up the water you came without a doubt. I don't know your smell, but if you are not one of those men of the Lake, you had their help. They shall see me and remember who is the real King under the Mountain!"
... He rose in fire and went away south towards the Running River."
Does exposure to Dragon speech make you more susceptible or tuned in to the Dragon mentality.... just as the lust for gold when being around Dwarves? Are Hobbits vulnerable to such temptations but then quickly go back to their own sensibilities... Like Sam when he wore the Ring or Merry and Pippin talking about living on the heights? They're tempted long enough to understand their adversaries/counterparts, but remain hobbits, except for those like Sandyman and Lotho.
WANTED: Sharing of any thoughts or comments.
***Tomorrow... "Never match wits with a Reptilian when death's on the line!"
[text taken from J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit: Inside Information, 1965 Ballantine edition, pgs 203-222]
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 11 2009, 12:30pm
Post #2 of 18
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I think Bilbo's intuition is at work. If there is any outside influence
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on that intuition, I don't think it is Dragon Speech or Dragon Spells, which befuddle rather than enlighten, but perhaps Bilbo's Luck or Destiny, or his connection to a Higher Power.
Could falling under a dragon's spell leave some residual understanding with the victim? A form of symbiosis? Does exposure to Dragon speech make you more susceptible or tuned in to the Dragon mentality.... just as the lust for gold when being around Dwarves?
Just the opposite, I think. If Bilbo had been under Smaug's influence, he would have done Smaug's bidding.
Are Hobbits vulnerable to such temptations but then quickly go back to their own sensibilities... Like Sam when he wore the Ring or Merry and Pippin talking about living on the heights?
In LotR, hobbits are more resistant to temptation. I think the same is true of Bilbo in the Hobbit. But I also think Bilbo is too humble and afraid to look fearlessly into the eyes of a dragon, which is a good thing. Bilbo also seems to have benefited from dragon lore of which even the hobbits are aware. Turin did not have that advantage, since Glaurung was the first dragon to attack people.
WANTED: Sharing of any thoughts or comments.
Bilbo's insistence on shutting the door is a key moment. It's a big step, since it leaves them only one way out. Yet there was no way they were going to escape in that direction, so it is a wise, if desparate, move. Unbeknownst to Bilbo, the information he gave the thrush, including Bilbo's unwise mention of barrel riding, is also important. If Bilbo had been too ashamed to mention it, the thrush might not have realized that Smaug would be attacking Lake-town soon. But how did the thrush know Bard after all these years? Has Bard been speaking to thrushes all his life?
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jun 11 2009, 2:26pm
Post #3 of 18
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What do you think about Bilbo telling the dwarves what Smaug had said about not trusting them? Is he looking for reassurance, or is he alerting them to his awareness of their possible deception. Either way, Smaug's poisonous words are still at work.
In my work I often have to cooperate with other government departments in dealing with environmental problems. Sometimes the person at the center of the problem will tell different inspectors different stories, like “That other inspector told me the opposite” or “That other inspector said you didn’t know what you are talking about”. I’ve learned long ago to always document what was said, and to regularly touch base with the other inspectors working the case. The person is playing a sophomoric “divide and conquer” gambit that can actually work with new inspectors, or if two departments are already at odds.
Similarly, Bilbo is “documenting” the accusations just in case, like if one of the Dwarves goes down to talk to Smaug and Smaug begins sowing suspicion about Bilbo.
"From that the talk turned to the great hoard itself and to the things that Thorin and Balin remembered. They wondered if they were still lying there unharmed in the hall below… …But fairest of all was the great white gem, which the dwarves had found beneath the roots of the Mountain, the Heart of the Mountain, the Arkenstone of Thrain.
"The Arkenstone! The Arkenstone!" murmured Thorin in the dark, half dreaming with his chin upon his knees. "It was like a globe with a thousand facets; it shone like silver in the firelight, like water in the sun, like snow under the stars, like rain upon the Moon!"
One wonders if this was a natural stone or if it was cut by the Dwarves. Normally natural gemstones are pretty unimpressive. If it was cut one wonders, who cut it?
And again one is struck by the similarities with the Silmarils and the One Ring. Tolkien basically has the same McGuffin in his stories. just in different guises.
But the enchanted desire of the hoard had fallen from Bilbo. All through their talk he was only half listening to them. He sat nearest to the door with one ear cocked for any beginnings of a sound without, his other was alert for echoes beyond the murmurs of the dwarves, for any whisper of a movement from far below.
Darkness grew deeper and he grew ever more uneasy. "Shut the door!" he begged them. "I fear that dragon in my marrow. I like this silence far less than the uproar of last night. Shut the door before it is too late!"
Something in his voice gave the dwarves an uncomfortable feeling. Slowly Thorin shook off his dreams and getting up he kicked away the stone that wedged the door. Then they thrust upon it, and it closed with a snap and a clang. No trace of a keyhole was there left on the inside. They were shut in the Mountain!
Which sort of rains on my theory that the tunnel was made as an escape hatch as in National Treasure.
And not a moment too soon. They had hardly gone any distance down the tunnel when a blow smote the side of the Mountain like the crash of battering-rams made of forest oaks and swung by giants. The rock boomed, the walls cracked and stones fell from the roof on their heads. What would have happened if the door had still been open I don't like to think. They fled further down the tunnel glad to be still alive, while behind them outside they heard the roar and rumble of Smaug's fury. He was breaking rocks to pieces, smashing wall and cliff with the lashings of his huge tail, till their little lofty camping ground, the scorched grass, the thrush's stone, the snail-covered walls, the narrow ledge, and all disappeared in a jumble of smithereens, and an avalanche of splintered stones fell over the cliff into the valley below.
Again, I am struck by Bilbo’s Gandalf-like intuition. Might Gandalf (or even Elrond?) have blessed Bilbo in some way? What didn’t he bless Thorin? Or would Aule’s Dwarves be too naturally resistant to the blessings of the servant of another Valar?
. After he had let off his rage in this way he felt better and he thought in his heart that he would not be troubled again from that direction. In the meanwhile he had further vengeance to take. "Barrel-rider!" he snorted. "Your feet came from the waterside and up the water you came without a doubt. I don't know your smell, but if you are not one of those men of the Lake, you had their help. They shall see me and remember who is the real King under the Mountain!"
He rose in fire and went away south towards the Running River."
Does exposure to Dragon speech make you more susceptible or tuned in to the Dragon mentality.... just as the lust for gold when being around Dwarves?
“After he had let off his rage in this way he felt better.” Smaug seems remarkably childlike. If children are supposed to identify with Bilbo, then maybe Smaug is supposed to be that big mean playground bully that, while physically unbeatable, just might be dealt with in other ways.
Are Hobbits vulnerable to such temptations but then quickly go back to their own sensibilities... Like Sam when he wore the Ring or Merry and Pippin talking about living on the heights? They're tempted long enough to understand their adversaries/counterparts, but remain hobbits, except for those like Sandyman and Lotho.
As Curious has pointed out, our hero hobbits like Sam, Merry, and Pippin are atypical. (Remember, it took atypical hobbits to lead the Scouring.) The typical hobbit will indeed be tempted by treasure, obsessing over its possible existence in pub talk, tearing up other people’s floorboards and wainscoting searching for it, and stealing spoons outright. It would seem indeed that a hobbit’s nature is constantly torn between burglar and burgher.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 11 2009, 5:02pm
Post #4 of 18
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And again one is struck by the similarities with the Silmarils and the One Ring. Tolkien basically has the same McGuffin in his stories. just in different guises.
This supports why I find "tremendous love of the artifact" to be insulting. Tolkien consistently writes very bad things about people who love artifacts too tremendously.
“After he had let off his rage in this way he felt better.” Smaug seems remarkably childlike. If children are supposed to identify with Bilbo, then maybe Smaug is supposed to be that big mean playground bully that, while physically unbeatable, just might be dealt with in other ways.
Power can make people childish, because power can plow through the boundaries that most adults have to observe. Why do rock stars trash hotel rooms? Because they can.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 11 2009, 8:35pm
Post #5 of 18
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They were shut in the Mountain!
Which sort of rains on my theory that the tunnel was made as an escape hatch as in National Treasure.
How did Thorin's father escape? I always thought it was through the escape hatch as well, since so few others escaped. Maybe they had a different key or formula to get out. And I suppose they made it secret because they didn't want any burglars escaping through that passageway.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Jun 12 2009, 7:46am
Post #6 of 18
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One thing which I have often found ironical about the Hobbit is that the most important thing which Bilbo did was to find out about Smaug's bald patch. Yet, according to the narrator later on, no-one remembered this. Well, perhaps Balin did remember this and appreciate the importance of Bilbo's discovery!
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Twit
Menegroth
Jun 12 2009, 9:15am
Post #7 of 18
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it could have been an escape route
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if they kept it open until they had escaped, this would effectively stop anyone following them up, trapping them with Smaug. It might have been a ventilation shaft, made ready for some one to close, from the outside if they had needed to escape by it.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Jun 12 2009, 9:44am
Post #8 of 18
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I've assumed that there was some way of opening the Door from the inside, maybe the old "push the stone three blocks up and two to the right" sort of thing, or some opening-spell.
I wonder why Thorin & company did not spend some time, when the Door was still ajar, examining the area to locate the mechanism? Most likely, they never thought they'd have to completely shut the Door!
And once it was shut, the Door was ruined within seconds...
...just like the West-gate of Moria...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jun 12 2009, 2:38pm
Post #9 of 18
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I've assumed that there was some way of opening the Door from the inside, maybe the old "push the stone three blocks up and two to the right" sort of thing, or some opening-spell.
^This.^
I wonder why Thorin & company did not spend some time, when the Door was still ajar, examining the area to locate the mechanism? Most likely, they never thought they'd have to completely shut the Door!
The Dwarves seem to be pretty much reactive rather than proactive. One wonders how they ever got up the initiative to go on this quest in the first place? Then again, maybe, like Bilbo, Gandalf gave them a not-so-gentle nudge out the door?
Sneaky Gandalf!
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 12 2009, 2:56pm
Post #10 of 18
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I'm sure the dwarves had talked about it all their lives.
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Then Gandalf encouraged (dared?) them to do it, and they couldn't back out, much like Bilbo when his courage was challenged. But they seem like tourists, rather than experienced adventurers, who relied first on Gandalf, then on Bilbo, to tell them what to do.
I've just been reading a marvelous version of the Bible called The Child's Story Bible by Catherine F. Vos. I just got through the story of Moses, and, just like Gandalf and Bilbo, he had to deal with grumbling Hebrews who expected Moses to provide for all their needs.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jun 12 2009, 3:22pm
Post #11 of 18
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...like Gandalf with Bilbo, God cajoled a reluctant Moses into going on the adventure into Egypt.
I've often thought of Bilbo as Moses. Like Bilbo wrote The Red Book, so did Moses write the Pentateuch. And both works were added to by Frodo and Joshua respectively.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 13 2009, 4:57am
Post #12 of 18
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Jun 13 2009, 6:05am
Post #13 of 18
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I am fairly impressed with the Dwarves in this section. Not only did they tend to his injuries and do "their best to cheer him up" but *treasure* was the final subject they discussed. Before that---Bilbo was able to recount his experience with Smaug, provide some information that led to a little brainstorming session, and clear the air a bit with regards to the Dwarves intentions.
Yes, Balin's demeanor towards Bilbo is a nice contrast to Thorin's gruffness later in the conversation-- (and after reading this I have more appreciation for film-Gimli's nod to Balin as the fellowship enters Moria).
The role of the thrush...how long has that phrase *a little bird told me* been in use? Brilliant!
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 13 2009, 1:53pm
Post #14 of 18
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The role of the thrush...how long has that phrase *a little bird told me* been in use? Brilliant!
There are several possible origins of the phrase, but perhaps Tolkien did have it in mind when he invented his own origin!
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jun 14 2009, 1:42pm
Post #15 of 18
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"Bilbo is too humble and afraid to look fearlessly into the eyes of a dragon"
Isn't it amazing that it's the Hobbits' humility as well as their innate courage that gives them so much strength... and resiliency.
After travelling down the tunnel twice before, Bilbo knew what small hope there'd be at the end of it; but knew there was no hope at the door. His panic was palpable! I was amazed he stayed with the dwarves, trying to convince them to shut the door (and save their lives) instead of hauling on down through the treasure room and out of the mountain if he was so sure Smaug was coming. The coast would be clear and he'd be free to escape; but he stuck with his friends.
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jun 14 2009, 2:11pm
Post #16 of 18
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there are other tunnels from different parts of the chamber. The way dwarves seems to like chomping through rock, I'd guess there could have been a variety of tunnels, chambers or vents. Given the size and depth of the realm, and the dwarves' prep for protection with gates and doors, they'd most certainly have ways of ventilating other than the main door and this secret door.
I agree there had to be charms of some sort for opening the Hidden Door as well. That same key may have worked from the inside as the outside.
And I hear ya with the "divide and conquer" techniques. I've encountered the same thing in my history ;)
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jun 14 2009, 2:17pm
Post #17 of 18
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And I'm sure you're right. He really respected Bilbo by now and always gave him credit for his efforts. Even after the Quest and everyone went home, Balin remembered.
Woudn't it have been fun to travel with Gandalf and Balin as they came to Bag End later on and hear what they had to say about the Quest and Bilbo. And especially interesting on their ride back from Hobbiton ;)
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jun 14 2009, 2:23pm
Post #18 of 18
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couldn't hear them saying as he travelled down the tunnel was a growing concern for him over the treasure. Maybe there was some soul-searching going on that left them so relieved to see Bilbo re-appear and distressed that he'd finally/ultimately been wounded on their behalf as they sit untouched by this whole episode.
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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