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Laerasëa
Dor-Lomin
May 29 2009, 3:31am
Post #1 of 14
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A Warm Welcome-- Part Four: The Master and the Elves
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"I speak to the Master of the town of the Men of the Lake, not to the raft-men of the king."
Then the Master hesitated and looked from one to the other. The Elvenking was very powerful in those parts and the Master wished for no enmity with him, nor did he think much of old songs, giving his mind to trade and tolls, to cargoes and gold, to which habit he owed his position. Others were of different mind, however, and quickly the matter was settled without him.
1. What would the Master have done had the elvish raft-men had been more outspoken in their disapproval of the dwarves at the feast? Would his reaction still have depended entirely upon that of his people?
2. The Master is later said to be starting new songs about the death of the dragon and the rewarding of Smaug's gold to Esgaroth; has he forgotten the elves entirely, being caught up in the moment? Or does he simply see them as being less powerful at the moment? Or something else?
3. How would you describe the Master as a leader?
In the meanwhile the Wood-elves had gone back up the Forest River with their cargoes, and there was great excitement in the king's palace....in any case, the king knew now the dwarves' arrand, or thought he did, and he said to himself:
"Very well! We'll see! No treasure will come back through Mirkwood without my having something to say in the matter. But I expect they will all come to a bad end, and serve them right!"
....He sent his spies about the shores of the lake and as far northward towards the Mountain as they would go.
4. What is the excitement over in the king's palace? The discovery of the whereabouts of the prisoners, or the possibility of the death of Smaug, or something else?
5. The king has an interest in the treasure, as we can see here; how does he differ as a leader from the Master?
6. What are his spies waiting for? Do the rest of the elves (other than the king) know about these spies? Do the rest of the elves (or the spies) suspect the same thing that the king does?
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(This post was edited by Altaira on May 29 2009, 3:48pm)
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Curious
Gondolin
May 29 2009, 6:41am
Post #2 of 14
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"I speak to the Master of the town of the Men of the Lake, not to the raft-men of the king."
Then the Master hesitated and looked from one to the other. The Elvenking was very powerful in those parts and the Master wished for no enmity with him, nor did he think much of old songs, giving his mind to trade and tolls, to cargoes and gold, to which habit he owed his position. Others were of different mind, however, and quickly the matter was settled without him.
1. What would the Master have done [if] the [elvish] raft-men had been more outspoken in their disapproval of the [dwarves] at the feast?
I think that's what you meant to say. I'm not sure the elves could have been more outspoken in their disapproval, though. The key was the enthusiasm of the Lake-men, which the Master was too much of a politician to fight.
Would his reaction still have depended entirely upon that of his people?
Not entirely. He certainly took the elves' disapproval into account. But for the moment, at least, he decided it was better to give the dwarves enough rope to hang themselves, as they say, and wait for public opinion to turn. He did not realize, though, that the dwarves were quite serious about confronting Smaug, and was startled when they asked for provisions and prepared to set out for the Mountain.
2. The Master is later said to be starting new songs about the death of the dragon and the rewarding of Smaug's gold to Esgaroth; has he forgotten the elves entirely, being caught up in the moment?
He's going with the flow, but trying to steer it in his direction. I think he has decided that the wrath of the Elvenking is less dangerous than the wrath of his own people.
Or does he simply see them as being less powerful at the moment?
The Elvenking is powerful, but he was elected by the men of Lake-town.
Or something else?
He's a demagogue, the kind of politician who tries to take the popular stance, while holding no strong convictions of his own. Every politician must keep popular opinion in mind, but some are more beholden to it than others. Tolkien doesn't care much for politicians, it seems, although in the end Sam Gamgee becomes a very successful politician -- but in a very different manner than the Master of Lake-town.
3. How would you describe the Master as a leader?
See above.
4. What is the excitement over in the king's palace? The discovery of the whereabouts of the prisoners, or the possibility of the death of Smaug, or something else?
The escape of the prisoners caused the excitement. I don't think the Elvenking considered the death of Smaug a real possibility. He may, however, have been concerned that the dwarves would succeed in rousing Smaug; indeed it is hard for me to believe that the Elvenking didn't suspect the true purpose of the dwarves all along, and I suspect that he imprisoned them in part because he did not approve of rousing Smaug.
5. The king has an interest in the treasure, as we can see here; how does he differ as a leader from the Master?
The Elvenking is not constrained by popular opinion, and unfortunately his personal greed and distrust of dwarves can shape public policy. On the whole Tolkien favors the Elvenking over the corrupt Master, but the Elvenking does have significant flaws in his character, just as Thorin does.
6. What are his spies waiting for?
The wrath of Smaug, most likely. The death of Smaug, possibly.
Do the rest of the elves (other than the king) know about these spies?
Yes, I think these are more like scouts than secret police.
Do the rest of the elves (or the spies) suspect the same thing that the king does?
That's unclear. The king does not, apparently, tell everyone what he is thinking, nor, as a monarch, is he required to do so. That's the blessing and the curse of monarchy -- freedom to act without consulting the public, but few or no checks on personal motives such as greed or distrust.
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Twit
Menegroth
May 29 2009, 10:50am
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3:31am
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A Warm Welcome-- Part Four: The Master and the Elves - NEW Quote | Reply
"I speak to the Master of the town of the Men of the Lake, not to the raft-men of the king."
Then the Master hesitated and looked from one to the other. The Elvenking was very powerful in those parts and the Master wished for no enmity with him, nor did he think much of old songs, giving his mind to trade and tolls, to cargoes and gold, to which habit he owed his position. Others were of different mind, however, and quickly the matter was settled without him.
1. What would the Master have done had the raft-men had been more outspoken in their disapproval of the elves at the feast? Would his reaction still have depended entirely upon that of his people?
[I'm going with Curious' version of this question if that's ok.]
I think he would have blustered his way through and things would have turned out as they did, he wouldn't have wanted to offend the Elves nor would he want to go against popular opinion.
2. The Master is later said to be starting new songs about the death of the dragon and the rewarding of Smaug's gold to Esgaroth; has he forgotten the elves entirely, being caught up in the moment? Or does he simply see them as being less powerful at the moment? Or something else?
He hasn't forgotten the Elves, more that at the present time the Dwarves and his people are more numerous and more pressing. I don't believe he thinks the Elves are terribly dangerous or powerful, especially if Bilbo can free the Dwarves from them. But he knows which side his bread's buttered on.
3. How would you describe the Master as a leader?
He goes where-ever it's easy and makes him look good. He'll suck up to any one, and dismiss any one that might suggest the right but difficult thing to do. He reminds me of a certain ex pm.
In the meanwhile the Wood-elves had gone back up the Forest River with their cargoes, and there was great excitement in the king's palace....in any case, the king knew now the dwarves' arrand, or thought he did, and he said to himself:
"Very well! We'll see! No treasure will come back through Mirkwood without my having something to say in the matter. But I expect they will all come to a bad end, and serve them right!"
....He sent his spies about the shores of the lake and as far northward towards the Mountain as they would go.
4. What is the excitement over in the king's palace? The discovery of the whereabouts of the prisoners, or the possibility of the death of Smaug, or something else?
The fact that the Dwarves escaped, and the thought of the old legends perhaps being fulfilled. And the treasure.
5. The king has an interest in the treasure, as we can see here; how does he differ as a leader from the Master?
I think I some how prefer the Elf King to the Master. Some how, although possibly not pleasant, the King seems to be more up front. Perhaps the greed and politics of the Master are holding up a mirror to our own political problems at the moment. and that is swaying my opinion. I'd like to see his expenses.
6. What are his spies waiting for? Do the rest of the elves (other than the king) know about these spies? Do the rest of the elves (or the spies) suspect the same thing that the king does?
I think he is just wanting to know what is going on. I suppose the scouts know the Dwarves are going to the mountain and they must know of the treasure. They are probably gossiping about how much their King will claim.
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Curious
Gondolin
May 29 2009, 1:12pm
Post #4 of 14
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I prefer the Elvenking to the Master, but unlike Tolkien,
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in the Primary World I prefer representative democracy to absolute monarchy. As Winston Churchill said, "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
On the other hand, in Tolkien's Secondary World, I would go with absolute monarchy or no government at all, both of which seem to work quite well in his fantasy, as long as the people are good hearted.
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Twit
Menegroth
May 29 2009, 1:46pm
Post #5 of 14
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I suppose the idea of 'good' kings or queens comes from childhood fairy tales, and King Arthur. The idea of good kings and queens ruling us because they are 'better' is appealing as they represent the best that we can be.
[Of course if they are 'bad' then the idea that they are ruling us because they are 'better' than us is insulting, but maybe it's because they show us how bad we can be.]
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Laerasëa
Dor-Lomin
May 29 2009, 2:54pm
Post #6 of 14
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you're right about question one. I just made a post in feedback asking a mod to fix that. Thank you!
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The journal is finally in America!!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 29 2009, 4:19pm
Post #7 of 14
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1. What would the Master have done had the elvish raft-men had been more outspoken in their disapproval of the dwarves at the feast? Would his reaction still have depended entirely upon that of his people?
Most likely he would have sweat bullets, and then embarked on a diplomatic dance through the issues that would have impressed Grima Wormtongue, leaving everyone feeling agreed with and no policy actually set.
2. The Master is later said to be starting new songs about the death of the dragon and the rewarding of Smaug's gold to Esgaroth; has he forgotten the elves entirely, being caught up in the moment? Or does he simply see them as being less powerful at the moment? Or something else?
I think he's trusting that Thranduil would know exactly what he's up to, and chuckle quietly from his throne, once he heard the songs.
3. How would you describe the Master as a leader?
Canny. A consumate politician. Quite on top of things in a political emergency, but useless in a real emergency.
4. What is the excitement over in the king's palace? The discovery of the whereabouts of the prisoners, or the possibility of the death of Smaug, or something else?
I don't think the elves actually expect Smaug to die. No, they're quite excited that the mysteriously disappeared prisoners have shown up, and (more to the point) finally revealed their true purpose.
5. The king has an interest in the treasure, as we can see here; how does he differ as a leader from the Master?
He's more of a wait and watch kind of guy (immortality seems to foster that sort of attitude, I've noticed.) While The Master actively gives Thorin enough rope to hang himself, Thranduil lets him.
6. What are his spies waiting for? Do the rest of the elves (other than the king) know about these spies? Do the rest of the elves (or the spies) suspect the same thing that the king does?
No doubt information disperses on a need-to-know basis. The spies suspect whatever they're told to suspect, and the rest aren't included in the loop. Monarchs have no particular need for an informed public.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on May 29 2009, 4:20pm)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 29 2009, 4:26pm
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What are the spies in the forest watching for? Dwarves trying to sneak back the way they came, bearing loot.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
May 29 2009, 5:47pm
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There have been "good" kings and queens in history as well, and often they are able to accomplish much more than the best democratic leaders because they have fewer restrictions and longer terms. But the biggest fiction in fairy tales and fantasy is that sons and daughters inherit the virtue of their parents.
One of the advantages of celibacy in the Roman Catholic Church is that popes should not have children to inherit their office, and therefore popes are somewhat more likely to be picked on merit. The same was true during the true Golden Age of Rome, the age of the Five Good Emperors, all adopted as adults based on merit, and brought to an end when Marcus Aurelius decided to give his office to his unworthy birthson. Some people wonder if George Washington would have become king if he had a son to inherit his office. Perhaps it was fortunate that he did not.
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sador
Gondolin
May 31 2009, 9:36am
Post #10 of 14
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1. What would the Master have done had the elvish raft-men had been more outspoken in their disapproval of the dwarves at the feast? Would his reaction still have depended entirely upon that of his people?
Well, the raft-men are not the Elvenking, but only a few guests caught by surprise.
But as usual, it is a matter of delicate balancing between what the people think is right, and what foreign Powers do (and his own beliefs!). It never depends entirely on one or the other.
2. The Master is later said to be starting new songs about the death of the dragon and the rewarding of Smaug's gold to Esgaroth; has he forgotten the elves entirely, being caught up in the moment? Or does he simply see them as being less powerful at the moment? Or something else?
I do not think these songs are very new. They probably existed before - which means the Master has been around for a long time.
3. How would you describe the Master as a leader?
Very modern.
Cunning, manipulating public opinion rather than leading it directly, very skilled in diplomacy, and very shrewd about his own interests. He also has no interest or belief in old prophecies, and is concerned mostly with the present.
I think he is a comment of Tolkien on modern politicians - and it is quite uncomplimentary!
4. What is the excitement over in the king's palace? The discovery of the whereabouts of the prisoners, or the possibility of the death of Smaug, or something else?
The old prophecies.
And also discovering the whereabouts of the prisoners - but it only enhances the belief in their luck, and ultimately in their chances of future success.
5. The king has an interest in the treasure, as we can see here;
So does Bard, and even Gandalf is hinted as having an interest - he definitely does assert his claim to some of the gold at the end of 'Queer Lodgings'.
Wouldn't you?
how does he differ as a leader from the Master?
At the moment, in nothing that we know of.
But later we will note that the Elvenking is physically brave (leading his own people to battle), mild and less eager for battle than Bard (when Dain's soldiers try to break to the Lonely Mountain), and also kind and compassionate, even against his own self-interest (stopping his march to the Mountain to succor Esgaroth, which could only add nearer claimants to the treasure).
So he does cut quite a good figure.
Note also that Tolkien calls him wise, which he doesn't call the Master.
6. What are his spies waiting for?
Developements.
Unlike the Master, the Elvenking does realise that Thorin will try to get to the Mountain, and is not merely a fraud - which means my previous answer was inexact, and Tolkien already shows us the Elvenking is wiser than the Master.
Do the rest of the elves (other than the king) know about these spies?
I guess it's not common knowledge; but the elves probably trust their king's wisdom, and that he will do whatever is best.
Do the rest of the elves (or the spies) suspect the same thing that the king does?
I guess that would be considered High Politics, which most of the ordinary elves don't bother about.
The spies do not suspect anything yet, but they are likely to make up their minds once they see what the dwarves are doing.
The king might have instructed them about his suspicions, but I think not. It's often better not to tell your spies what they are supposed to see.
"I could eat anything in the wide world now, for hours on end - but not an apple!" - Fili
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
May 31 2009, 2:47pm
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Ahhh... the motivation of leadership ;)
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1. What would the Master have done had the elvish raft-men had been more outspoken in their disapproval of the dwarves at the feast? Would his reaction still have depended entirely upon that of his people?
2. The Master is later said to be starting new songs about the death of the dragon and the rewarding of Smaug's gold to Esgaroth; has he forgotten the elves entirely, being caught up in the moment? Or does he simply see them as being less powerful at the moment? Or something else?
3. How would you describe the Master as a leader?
I get the feeling that the Master looks out for himself first. He'd have done whatever he could to try and appease anyone he'd need to in order to set up this new situation to benefit his own agenda. Given the fact that things were settled so quickly before he had to make that determination told him a lot. He'd want to keep the Elves happy, but the thought of all that gold....
In this case, it's taken out of his hands; so if anything happens to upset anyone, he can claim it's not his fault.
4. What is the excitement over in the king's palace? The discovery of the whereabouts of the prisoners, or the possibility of the death of Smaug, or something else? 5. The king has an interest in the treasure, as we can see here; how does he differ as a leader from the Master?
6. What are his spies waiting for? Do the rest of the elves (other than the king) know about these spies? Do the rest of the elves (or the spies) suspect the same thing that the king does?
"No treasure will come back through Mirkwood without my having something to say in the matter." I notice when all was said and done, Gandalf, Bilbo and Beorn took the road around Mirkwood and not through it ;)
This King is smart. He's going to sit back and watch and see what happens. Plus, he lost a bunch of Dwarves and has had a conspirator appear with the group that he (the King) has no idea about. If nothing else, Thranduil's going to want to know how they escaped and whether or not the Men will side with the Dwarves.
Thranduil's showing the patience of the Elves. Wait, watch, we'll see ;)
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jun 2 2009, 4:44pm
Post #12 of 14
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"I speak to the Master of the town of the Men of the Lake, not to the raft-men of the king."
Then the Master hesitated and looked from one to the other. The Elvenking was very powerful in those parts and the Master wished for no enmity with him, nor did he think much of old songs, giving his mind to trade and tolls, to cargoes and gold, to which habit he owed his position. Others were of different mind, however, and quickly the matter was settled without him.
I’m struck by the similarity with Treebeard’s description of Saruman: "He has a mind of metal and wheels; and he does not care for growing things, except as far as they serve him for the moment."
1. What would the Master have done had the elvish raft-men had been more outspoken in their disapproval of the dwarves at the feast?
Irrelevant.
“All politics is local.”
-Thomas Phillip "Tip" O'Neill, Jr.
Would his reaction still have depended entirely upon that of his people?
Exactly. It ain’t Elves who elect the Master of Laketown.
2. The Master is later said to be starting new songs about the death of the dragon and the rewarding of Smaug's gold to Esgaroth;…
Obviously he’s a first class spinmeister. Even at the end after cowardice and desertion he’s able to snow the wise and noble Bard into trusting him with a share of Smaug’s treasure to re-build the town. Which he promptly absconds with. He seems to possess the Voice Of Saruman.
….has he forgotten the elves entirely, being caught up in the moment?
He’s way too cunning to make that mistake. The more relevant question is “Have the people of Lake-town forgotten the elves entirely, being caught up in the moment?”
Or does he simply see them as being less powerful at the moment?
If he’s a good politician (which by all measures he seems to be) he knows to never, ever count anyone out. Politicians are gracious to defeated enemies because they know what goes around, comes around.
Or something else?
"A new Power is rising. Against it the old allies and policies will not avail us at all. There is no hope left in Elves or dying Numenor. This then is one choice before you, before us. We may join with that Power. It would be wise, Gandalf. There is hope that way. Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those that aided it. As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow; and the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it.”
-Saruman, as quoted by Gandalf in The Council of Elrond
3. How would you describe the Master as a leader?
A little wienie. (As compared to Saruman who is a wienie writ large.)
In the meanwhile the Wood-elves had gone back up the Forest River with their cargoes, and there was great excitement in the king's palace....in any case, the king knew now the dwarves' arrand, or thought he did, and he said to himself:
"Very well! We'll see! No treasure will come back through Mirkwood without my having something to say in the matter. But I expect they will all come to a bad end, and serve them right!"
....He sent his spies about the shores of the lake and as far northward towards the Mountain as they would go.
4. What is the excitement over in the king's palace?
There’s Dwarves moving in next door. Property values will plummet. Houses will be hard to sell. Which is the real reason the Tawarwaith stayed so much longer in Middle-earth than the other Eldar before sailing to Valinor.
The discovery of the whereabouts of the prisoners, or the possibility of the death of Smaug, or something else?
Yes.
5. The king has an interest in the treasure, as we can see here; how does he differ as a leader from the Master?
The Master subvertly manipulates his people so he can acquire the gold.
The Elf King overtly gives commands to his people so he can acquire the gold.
Under a monarchy man exploits man. But under a democracy, it’s the other way around!
6. What are his spies waiting for?
Order 66.
Do the rest of the elves (other than the king) know about these spies?
Only in dark rumors whispered in private, and in redacted documents published in outlawed newspapers, and in the mad ravings of broken prisoners previously subjected to extraordinary rendition to the Misty Mountains.
Remember, the Department of Elfland Security has been established to preserve the security of Elven land.
And the land and the king are one.
Do the rest of the elves (or the spies) suspect the same thing that the king does?
They suspect only what they are told to suspect. Otherwise, they all say “I know nothing! Nothing!”
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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farkun02
Registered User
Jun 5 2009, 7:10am
Post #13 of 14
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In reference to question 4 with the excitement in the woods; I think you all are forgetting the White Council's "routing" of Dol Guldor sp?. Which has just happened around this time or was in progress. I can't imagine Thranduril or his people getting to worked up about the dwarve's overambitious exploits at the dullest of times once they were outside his realm. Much less when larger things were at foot closer to home. I don't think the elves really took notice until after Smaug's rukus at Esgaroth.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 6 2009, 6:35pm
Post #14 of 14
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...how much did Thranduil know about the challenge to the Necromancer, and when did he know it? But you make a good point that had never occurred to me before. Being elves, they might well have sensed great goings on of profound impact to themselves, even without being in the loop.
Thank you for that!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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