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Beren IV
Mithlond
May 25 2009, 7:44am
Post #1 of 58
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Aside: On the late Mrs. Thranduil
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I'm surprised that nobody seems to have brought up the problem of the Elvenking's marital status this time around (not that I saw, anyway).
One of the things that seems to be pretty common in Tolkien's works is that Elven monarchs' wives tend to matter, Melian and Galadriel being by far the most spectacular examples of this, but most of the other Elven queens at least get named. Not so for Thranduil, the king of the woodland elves, and, from LotR, we know he has to be married, or have been married, because Legolas is his son. So, where is she?
There are two possible ways to answer to this question. The first is to consider the way that Tolkien created Thranduil and Legolas as characters. At the time he wrote the Hobbit, Legolas didn't exist yet in the author's imagination, and therefore there was no direct need for there to be a Mrs. Elvenking either. We don't actually visit the Woodland Realm during The Lord of the RIngs, so Tolkien never rewrote the description of Thranduil and his halls to include his wife.
The other answer, in which we attempt to reconcile this missing character from the Hobbit, is to try to come up with an in-story explanation for why Mrs. Thranduil is not mentioned. It could be suggested that she is present but simply that Bilbo did not notice her - but I would think that Bilbo would notice a beautiful crowned lady sitting next to the Elvenking, and we can only assume that she would be beautiful (she's an Elven woman, after all). It could be that she is traveling somewhere while the Elvenking sits in his court, but we have to wonder where she might be traveling. It's possible that she and Thranduil are essentially divorced, as Fëanor and Nernadel were, although that was a noteworthy enough event that we might have word of it. My theory, as the title of the post suggests, is that she is dead: she died perhaps in some battle with Dol Guldor earlier in the Third Age, but you would still expect to hear something about it, just as we know how Turgon's wife Elenwë died in the Helcaraxë. Ultimately, all of the theories have their problems - not unlike the balrog-wings question, although perhaps not as divisive.
The paleobotanist is back!
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sador
Gondolin
May 25 2009, 8:24am
Post #2 of 58
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Obviously, the first answer is true.
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But that does not negate the second one; and I'm sure if Tolkien felt it was important enough, he would come up with a story to explain her absence (he did explain the mising Mrs. Elrond, but not the missing Mrs. Beorn, who also must have existed).
I think the simplest in-story explanation would be to assume Bilbo never got to see her. Note that he sometimes followed the king's hunts (which a good wife would never go to), but was never accepted to the feasts, and that on the way back he refused to return to Mirkwood.
No, this question is simple; it's the missing Mrs. Beorn who bugs me. But perhaps, before I attempt to idly speculate about her, I'll wait till we discuss 'The Return Journey'? dernwyn will lead it, and she should know if Tolkien ever gave her a thought.
"I could eat anything in the wide world now, for hours on end - but not an apple!" - Fili
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Curious
Gondolin
May 25 2009, 11:40am
Post #3 of 58
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Why are there no females at all in The Hobbit?
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Even the Spiders are not identified as females, as Shelob specifically is in LotR. In The Hobbit they are sexless. We are introduced to no females in The Hobbit, or none who are identified as such. Why not? We now know Tolkien was capable of creating memorable female characters, yet The Hobbit is a world of males. I don't have an explanation, I'm just wondering. I'm also wondering how the movie will deal with this.
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Curious
Gondolin
May 25 2009, 1:10pm
Post #4 of 58
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Could The Hobbit be a mid-life male initiation rite?
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Maybe there are no females in The Hobbit because the whole thing is a form of male initiation, although of course it comes late in Bilbo's life. But in many ways Bilbo is born anew during the story, and learns how to be, if not a Warrior, at least a Burglar, deadly to spiders, and indirectly to dragons as well. He sheds respectability, and perhaps Tolkien associated respectability with women. (And perhaps the spiders are female, symbolically attempting to rebind him in the webs of feminine respectability.)
(This post was edited by Curious on May 25 2009, 1:13pm)
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
May 25 2009, 2:26pm
Post #6 of 58
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Oddly enough, my daughters never complained that there were no girls in The Hobbit when I read it to them at a young age.
I never noticed that there were no female characters in The Hobbit. In fact, I never noticed it as a woman either, until someone pointed it out a few years ago.
When I was a girl, my identification with book characters had nothing to do with gender. I found Tom Sawyer much more interesting than Becky Thatcher, and I didn't notice until I was an adult that all the really strong characters (good and bad) in the Oz books were female.
I expect the explanation is that Tolkien was male himself, and spent most of his social time with other males, and so that's how his imagination ran. It's fine with me.
Though I do kind of secretly like the UUT that some of the dwarves were female, but Bilbo couldn't tell.
And actually, as a child, the thing that kept me from identifying with Bilbo more was his age, not his gender. Fifty was impossibly old to comprehend.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 25 2009, 9:48pm
Post #7 of 58
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No wives, no females, no "significant others"!
Beorn was as much a bachelor as that other animal-speech master, Dr. Doolittle (and those books were already being enjoyed by Tolkien's sons before the Hobbit came along).
And there is not the slightest hint of a Wood-elf Queen!
Perhaps if Tolkien's daughter had been old enough to listen to the hobbit's adventures, he might have included a princess for her benefit; but this was told to his sons, so the wife, or queen, was, sad to say, unnecessary!
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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ringers rock!
Ossiriand
May 26 2009, 3:17am
Post #9 of 58
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The male coming of age story is synonymous with adventure. Especially considering its anchors in Gilgamesh, The Odyssey.... nearly all the stories that define the genre. In text & film, boys, in relation to the 'world,' are represented as change itself; women become vessels for that change. But then, painting and sculpture have given equal, if not more focus to female subjects. That might explain why women are not opposed to following boys on the trail to adulthood and imagining women as personifications of stable unmoving forces -- like beauty, nature, love.
(This post was edited by ringers rock! on May 26 2009, 3:19am)
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Curious
Gondolin
May 26 2009, 5:38am
Post #10 of 58
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Isn't it odd, though, that if this was intended
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as a story for boys about growing up, the protagonist is much more like the father than the sons? It always seemed to me that the story was directed to parents as much as to children, consciously written on two levels. It's as much about Tolkien's desire to revisit boyhood as it is about his sons growing up.
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sador
Gondolin
May 26 2009, 5:55am
Post #11 of 58
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Tolkien calls eleven of the dwarves 'he'
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In 'Durin's Folk', Dis is called the only female dwarf to be mentioned in the history, so that precludes all of Durin's line - which anyway, Fili and Kili defended Thorin because they were the sons of his sister, Dwalin and Balin were brother, and in 'Not at Home' Oin has a torch in his hand, and Gloin a few unlit ones under his arm,
Dori gave Bilbo his hand up the trees, Bombur is refered to as 'he' several times (I think the first time was while coming to Beorn's, but it might have been earlier), and in 'Inside Information' is supporter by Bifur his cousin and Bofur his brother.
Ori is mentioned in 'The Bridge of Khazad-dum', where Gandalf says he fears he (Ori) had bad tidings to record. And trust the wizard to know!
But Bifur and Nori might have been female. Perhaps two of Thorin's favourite consorts - which explains why he took their relatives on the Quest? All the others were his close family, and one who was foisted upon him by Gandalf. 
"I could eat anything in the wide world now, for hours on end - but not an apple!" - Fili
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Beren IV
Mithlond
May 26 2009, 7:00am
Post #12 of 58
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I seem to remember that Lobelia features in The Hobbit at the very end, although I could be mistaken.
The paleobotanist is back!
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sador
Gondolin
May 26 2009, 7:14am
Post #13 of 58
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Bilbo's cousins, "the Sackville-Bagginses" are mentioned, but no more. We might assume they were married, or a couple of bachelor brothers.
By the way, mothers are mentioned in The Hobbit - the famous Belladonna Took, Gollum's grandmother and Thorin's sister (as the mother of Fili and Kili). But only Bilbo's mother is named, she is long dead by the time of the story, and she is never mentioned after the first three pages.
"I could eat anything in the wide world now, for hours on end - but not an apple!" - Fili
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xy
Nargothrond
May 26 2009, 11:40am
Post #15 of 58
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Well, I don't know about you but I doubt a tough hermit with little amounts of trust, a bunch of talking animals and frequently turning into a raving bear would get much luck in romance...the elven king was all about partying and hunting - not much to get excited about either.
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NottaSackville
Doriath
May 26 2009, 11:56am
Post #16 of 58
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At least the older one - she has very little interest in stories that don't have female protagonists. She did put up with the Hobbit when she was 7, but really only seemed to "put up with it".
My younger one, now 5, however, has been fascinated by the Hobbit and now Harry Potter. Though the Potter series does have a prominent female as one of the three leads, I don't think that matters much to her.
That fits with their overall personalities as well. The older one has always been a Barbie/My Little Pony/Jumprope kinda girl, while the younger is much more interested in whatever activity Daddy is doing.
Notta
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
May 26 2009, 12:20pm
Post #17 of 58
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Your comment about literature and art suddenly reminded me of the days years ago when Uncle Baggins and I were in an international folk dance performance group, specializing in dances from the Balkans and Turkey. In rehearsals, we women used to grumble that the men's dances were so much more interesting than the women's dances. They got to leap around and we just kind of swayed in the background. But then when the performances came, we realized that there was some justice: the women's costumes were full of flashy colors and fabrics, and the men's were usually black and white and beige. For example, the people in this photo are doing a dance Uncle Baggins and I did at our wedding.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on May 26 2009, 12:22pm)
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sador
Gondolin
May 26 2009, 12:35pm
Post #18 of 58
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But in LotR his son is mentioned!
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I was thinking in lines of his settling down when he became a great chief, and getting married.
It would be fitting to have him surrender his magic as a price, which would account for his son being a normal person.
All UUT, of course.
"I could eat anything in the wide world now, for hours on end - but not an apple!" - Fili
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Morthoron
Hithlum
May 26 2009, 2:13pm
Post #19 of 58
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Sador, I was joking. Perhaps the dwarves are asexual -- their beards bud and a new dwarf falls off. It is rather humorous that Dis is the only female dwarf ever mentioned -- sort of like Smurfette among all the male Smurfs. Maybe Dis was a queen ant or bee; after all, dwarves live busy, hivelike existences in their catacombs.
On a serious note, my daughter and I have read The Hobbit, and she was no worse for wear not having a female character to identify with. She quite enjoyed the story.
Two novel-length stories nominated for 2009 MEFAs: MONTY PYTHON'S 'The HOBBIT':
http://www.fanfiction.net/...y_Pythons_The_Hobbit
-And-
'TALES OF A DARK CONTINENT':
http://www.fanfiction.net/..._of_a_Dark_Continent
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
May 26 2009, 2:25pm
Post #20 of 58
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Why there are no females in The Hobbit:
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Mrs. Thorin: Thirteen Dwarves against a dragon? Don’t be ridiculous! If you and all your relatives want to do something useful there’s plenty of chores that need doing around the house!
Mrs. Baggins: Heading out on an adventure at a moment’s notice without even packing? I don’t think so! You can have a midlife crisis here in the Shire just as well as anywhere else. If you really want to go somewhere we can go to my mother’s.
Mrs. Huggins: I don’t care who said what! Stop all this foolish fighting! It’s near sunup and time to go to bed! Now!
Mrs. Elrond: All you tra-la-lally Elves shut up and get off my lawn!
Mrs. Goblin King: I told you I keep hearing noises in the basement! Something’s down there and you’re going to take some guards and go kill it. Now!
Mrs. Gollum: It may have been your birthday present but now it’s my wedding present!
Mrs. Gwaihir: Whatever were you thinking? You were supposed to bring back some nice tender sheep! I suppose these will have to do. Well, come on and help! The children are hungry and I'm not going to be the only one doing the regurgitating!
Mrs. Beorn: I’ve put up with all the animals in the house, but I’m putting my foot down when it comes to 13 Dwarves, a hobbit, and a wizard! They can sleep outside with all your rowdy bear friends!
Mrs. Thranduil: According to my household accounts we keep coming up short on the Dorwinion wine. Somebody’s snagging a cup now and then and I’m going to find out who. We need to put a stop to it. That stuff’s expensive!
Mrs. Master of Laketown: We're giving them free housing and free food. The least they can do is sign a contract giving us a little share of the treasure. Here, I've drawn it up myself.
Mrs. Smaug: I’m sick and tired of that draft! You’ve been promising to stop up that hole for years and you’re going to do it now!
Mrs. Bard: A black arrow? Oh, I threw away that nasty old thing years ago! It's not like you ever used it!
Mrs. Gandalf: Three hundred lives of Men you’ve walked this earth and you have no time for your wife? Well, from now on that’s going to change!
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
May 26 2009, 2:29pm
Post #21 of 58
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If one was female they'd have stopped and asked for directions instead of wandering around lost.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
May 26 2009, 2:31pm
Post #22 of 58
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Kili was a girl's name.
It is an interesting point you make though, from a film perspective. It is very difficult to find a movie that does not have some sort of male/female love thread (even Brokeback Mountain!)
Saving Private Ryan comes to mind as a film with an (almost) all male cast. Women appear as daughters visiting the grave with their father, as the mother who lost many sons, and as clerical workers writing bereavement letters. I don't think there was a female voice heard through the whole movie, except on the phonograph just before the final battle scene. Someone somewhere probably pointed this out to Spielberg. I'm sure his answer was the same as what Guillermo's will be, "So?"
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
May 26 2009, 3:01pm
Post #23 of 58
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The Emperor's New Groove (2000)
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They tried to put in a romantic interest for Emperor Kuzco, but ultimately they felt it distracted from the main story, so they cut it.
Surely if Disney can resist the formula so can Del Toro?
Some other films without a romantic sub-plot:
2001: A Space Odyssey
Robinson Crusoe on Mars
PT 109
The Taking of Pelham One Two Three
John Carpenter's The Thing
Jaws
Cool Hand Luke
Reservoir Dogs
The Shawshank Redemption
Stand By Me
The Wild Bunch
Lawrence of Arabia
The Great Escape
Stalag17
Kelly's Heroes
12 Angry Men
The Treasure of the Sierra Madre
Deliverance
The Wild Geese
The Unforgiven
The Hobbit would definitely be in good company.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on May 26 2009, 3:03pm)
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xy
Nargothrond
May 26 2009, 3:03pm
Post #24 of 58
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Mrs Balrog: I don't care if you're the uber mighty demon of the ancient world, I refuse to live in this dark pit any longer. I want a bigger appartment and that's final !
Mrs Sauron: Ring this Ring that - if anyone's wearing that precious it's me. Fetch it for me and stop rolling your eye !
Mrs Watcher in the water: If you hadn't scared everyone away, I wouldn't feel so lonely. I like visitors !
(This post was edited by xy on May 26 2009, 3:04pm)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 26 2009, 3:19pm
Post #25 of 58
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I never got the impression that Beorn had actual descendants, and hence I never saw a need for a Mrs. Beorn to exist. As I understood it, the Beornings were men who rallied around him after the Battle of Five Armies (and perhaps after the overthrow of the Necromancer, as Beorn appeared to have arrived around the same time as Gandalf). Thus, on the return trip, we have a big Yule celebration with suddenly lots of men present, whereas on the way out Beorn was clearly a loner.
This matches folklore, where Beorn, the werebear half-brother of Hrolf Kraki, has to prove himself in battle--and on the right side--before people trust him.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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