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Laerasëa
Dor-Lomin
May 25 2009, 3:55am
Post #1 of 13
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A Warm Welcome-- Part 1: Setting
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Ok, welcome to this week's discussion of A Warm Welcome! As usual, I will be working each discussion thematically, so we won't necessarily be going in order of the chapter. This first one is on the scenic descriptions that we get in this chapter.
I will actually be out working tomorrow (working at a pool, which is apparently always very full on Memorial Day), so this first post will be it until Tuesday morning. Anyway, here we go!
And far away, its dark head in a torn cloud, there loomed the Mountain!....All alone it rose and looked across the marshes to the forest. The Lonely Mountin! Bilbo had come far and through many adventures to see it, and now he did not like the look of it in the least.
We also end the chapter with Bilbo being "the only one thoroughly unhappy" as they paddle towards the Mountain.
1. What did Bilbo expect the Lonely Mountain to be like? Is he having second thoughts about this adventure?
The lands had changed much since the days when dwarves dwelt in the Mountain, days which most people now remembered only as a very shadowy tradition. They had changed even in recent years, and since the last news that Gandalf had had of them.
We then get a description of the earthquakes, floods, marshes, bogs, and vanishing paths around the laketown.
2. What makes the land so ominous? Is the land really that changed, or is it just fear of Smaug working its way into people's minds? (note: it is suggested that the townspeople believe that Smaug is behind the earthquakes and floods; how might that be possible?) If they are simply afraid, what has kept the townspeople living in the middle of the lake, instead of moving? (Tolkien does mention some of their moving, though)
[The Long Lake} was so wide that the opposite shores looked small and far, but it was so long that its northerly end, which pointed towards the Mountain, could not be seen at all....Bilbo had necer imagined any water that was not the sea could look so big.
3. How does the description of the Lake compare with that of the Mountain?
4. We have been treated to three descriptions of this new, foreign (foreign to our protagonists) land, and we are barely into the chapter. What were/are you thinking when reading this? What sort of atmosphere (or setup for the rest of the book) is Tolkien giving us here?
5. Any other thoughts on the setting?
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Traveling Journal Official Site
The journal is finally in America!!
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Curious
Gondolin
May 25 2009, 5:53am
Post #2 of 13
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1. What did Bilbo expect the Lonely Mountain to be like?
Smaller, closer, and much easier to reach. He didn't expect to nearly die getting there. He's sick and tired, and not looking forward to more near-death experiences.
Is he having second thoughts about this adventure?
He had second thoughts about this adventure before it even began, when he woke up and the dwarves had left without him, and he was more relieved than disappointed. Gandalf reminded him of his commitment, and sent him on his way, but Bilbo acts more like someone forced to take on a dare than a willing and eager participant. He started to think adventuring wasn't so bad before they met the trolls, but the trolls quickly taught him that adventuring is not just camping -- there's a decent chance of getting killed. Since then, he's continually had second thoughts, but the idea of turning around on his own is probably even more terrifying than continuing to travel with these crazy dwarves.
2. What makes the land so ominous?
The dragon.
Is the land really that changed, or is it just fear of Smaug working its way into people's minds?
Actually, the people of Lake-town don't fear Smaug enough; some even doubt whether he exists. So I would say the land has really changed.
(note: it is suggested that the townspeople believe that Smaug is behind the earthquakes and floods; how might that be possible?)
The Lonely Mountain bears a distinct resemblance to a restless but mostly dormant volcano. But Tolkien leaves the connection between Smaug and earthquakes and floods ambiguous. If there is a connection, I would say it has to do with the concentration of evil in Smaug's lair, and how that evil can infest activites for miles around.
If they are simply afraid, what has kept the townspeople living in the middle of the lake, instead of moving?
Trade keeps them in the location, trade with the Wood-Elves. Security concerns keep them on the lake rather than the shore -- probably having nothing to do with the dragon, who will scoff at such measures, although such measures do force Smaug to reveal his vulnerable underbelly.
3. How does the description of the Lake compare with that of the Mountain?
The Lake is big, but less ominous than the Mountain. There's no dragon under the Lake.
4. We have been treated to three descriptions of this new, foreign (foreign to our protagonists) land, and we are barely into the chapter. What were/are you thinking when reading this?
Finally! Little did I know this was the short adventure compared to LotR.
What sort of atmosphere (or setup for the rest of the book) is Tolkien giving us here?
Cheerful dwarves and cheerful crowds; miserable Bilbo and an evil Mountain.
Any other thoughts on the setting?
Not at this time.
(This post was edited by Curious on May 25 2009, 5:54am)
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sador
Gondolin
May 25 2009, 6:59am
Post #3 of 13
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1. What did Bilbo expect the Lonely Mountain to be like?
He probably never gave it much thought - at least not after being frustrated by it not being the Misty Mountains.
Is he having second thoughts about this adventure?
He is having his Nth thoughts, in which N is an integer, N>>1.
But note that he is not thinking now of breakfast in Bag End, just contemplating the Mountain and sagaciously shaking his head.
Also, remember that Bilbo is having a bad cold, and the desolate Mountain suggests no warmth or cheer (unless you count dragon-fire); and also that he is lonely without the dwarves - just like the Mountain is!
2. What makes the land so ominous? Is the land really that changed, or is it just fear of Smaug working its way into people's minds?
The land has become desolate, with the pine-forests burnt and Dale deserted. Not a nice place to be in.
It is suggested that the townspeople believe that Smaug is behind the earthquakes and floods; how might that be possible?
Well, the source of the Running River is under the Mountain, which means it literally comes from Smaug.
Also, if the Lonely Mountain is a vulcano (as some have suggested), Smaug personifies it, and there are often rumblings in the deeps of the Earth.
If they are simply afraid, what has kept the townspeople living in the middle of the lake, instead of moving?
We mentioned it last chapter, when discussing the wood-elves.
Esgaroth does sit on a major cross-roads, at the junction of two great waterways. Such opportunities for a flourishing trade will always entice prospectors, risk or no risk (remember the new songs, inspired by the Master!).
And the dragon hasn't been around for some time.
3. How does the description of the Lake compare with that of the Mountain?
Less ominous. Also another mention of his knowing nothing of the Sea.
4. We have been treated to three descriptions of this new, foreign (foreign to our protagonists) land, and we are barely into the chapter. What were/are you thinking when reading this?
The contrast between the Long Lake and the Mountain is striking.
But Lake-town seems quite like the only other place which is named in the book (well, there are Hobbiton, Bywater and the Carrock, but the first two are hobbit-lands, and the third is a natural site) - like Rivendell.
However, I must note that it is not named in this chapter.
Lake-town will be the Last Homely House before the Mountain (which makes Bilbo's previous mistake seem less silly), the last place to be supplied and healed, and make plans.
Bilbo seems reluctant to leave both places.
Even the songs which accompany the dwarves' arrival are similar - with the Elves' song sounding more silly, but the Men's song (despite having no tra-la-lallying) are actually far more foolish.
Of course, the Master is way below Elrond's level, in every comparison; however, Elrond is described as being 'strong as a warrior' - a hint of Bard? (Especially given Curious' reading of Gandalf's search for a hero or a warrior before.)
What sort of atmosphere (or setup for the rest of the book) is Tolkien giving us here?
Ominous, but soon we will be thrown off the tracks.
The chapter seems rather sunny, with the dwarves' feted around the town, and recovring their strength and health; but one notes the undercurrents represented by the Master's character (which I suppose you'll deal with later, so I'll wait until then).
5. Any other thoughts on the setting?
Please tell us tomorrow how working at the pool went! Do you think it will compare to the Lake in any way?
"I could eat anything in the wide world now, for hours on end - but not an apple!" - Fili
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Beren IV
Mithlond
May 25 2009, 7:22am
Post #4 of 13
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Yes, Dragons can do things like that!
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2. What makes the land so ominous? Is the land really that changed, or is it just fear of Smaug working its way into people's minds? (note: it is suggested that the townspeople believe that Smaug is behind the earthquakes and floods; how might that be possible?) If they are simply afraid, what has kept the townspeople living in the middle of the lake, instead of moving?
He's a Dragon - Dragons are intensely magical beings whose will governs or corrupts the forces of nature (corrupts, in most or all of Tolkien's cases, since Tolkien's Dragons are generally if not entirely evil). The changes in the land definitely are the Dragon's work. The land itself does the rest.
The paleobotanist is back!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 25 2009, 9:04pm
Post #6 of 13
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I assumed, since childhood, that folks blamed the earthquakes on Smaug because he's an enormous beast who lives underground, and probably therefore shakes the ground when restless. And the floods come from when he throws his enormous bulk into the river that flows from the Lonely Mountain, causing his own little tsunami.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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batik
Dor-Lomin
May 26 2009, 4:59pm
Post #7 of 13
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3. How does the description of the Lake compare with that of the Mountain?
Long Lake: one !
Lonely Mountain: two !!'s
Bilbo seems to be able to get his bearings (courtesy of his previous look at the map) as he views the Lake; however, when he sees the Mountain he pretty much can only see the Mountain.
5. Any other thoughts on the setting?
Yeah! Big water with a town floating within it! How neat is that? After the greens, browns, and greys of the mountains and forests--now there's a new color--blue--and new textures.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
May 26 2009, 5:51pm
Post #8 of 13
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"For some reason, the people I meet in my country are not the same as the ones I knew in the United States. A mysterious change seems to come over Americans when they go to a foreign land. They isolate themselves socially. They live pretentiously. They're loud and ostentatious."
-The Ugly American
1. What did Bilbo expect the Lonely Mountain to be like?
An ordinary mountain, like someone unsuspecting might expect Barad-dur to look like an ordinary tower.
Is he having second thoughts about this adventure?
I’m thinking it's more like thirty-second thoughts, but I may have lost count.
The lands had changed much since the days when dwarves dwelt in the Mountain, days which most people now remembered only as a very shadowy tradition. They had changed even in recent years, and since the last news that Gandalf had had of them.
We then get a description of the earthquakes, floods, marshes, bogs, and vanishing paths around the laketown.
2. What makes the land so ominous?
Earthquakes, floods, marshes, bogs, and vanishing paths.
Is the land really that changed, or is it just fear of Smaug working its way into people's minds?
The sensation of being somewhere man has not been (or at least not been for a long while) can be either wondrously exhilarating or else creepily foreboding. For good or ill, Man does leave an imprint on the land (both physically and psychically) , and some people get very uneasy when they cannot sense it. (Then again, some people actively seek out such places. I'd say Bilbo is not one of those people.)
(note: it is suggested that the townspeople believe that Smaug is behind the earthquakes and floods; how might that be possible?)
Indigestion and incontinence.
If they are simply afraid, what has kept the townspeople living in the middle of the lake, instead of moving? (Tolkien does mention some of their moving, though)
Why do people live in Catania, or San Francisco, or Dhaka, or New Orleans, or Wichita Falls? Perhaps other places might be far less disaster prone, but there’s no place like home.
[The Long Lake} was so wide that the opposite shores looked small and far, but it was so long that its northerly end, which pointed towards the Mountain, could not be seen at all....Bilbo had necer imagined any water that was not the sea could look so big
Reminds me of my first look at the Mississippi River.
3. How does the description of the Lake compare with that of the Mountain?
Wonder versus disquiet.
4. We have been treated to three descriptions of this new, foreign (foreign to our protagonists) land, and we are barely into the chapter. What were/are you thinking when reading this?
Places are is so much more different in person than on the map.
What sort of atmosphere (or setup for the rest of the book) is Tolkien giving us here?
It’s part of the whole macro-micro thing with Bilbo. Bilbo is all squenched up in his immediate world of misery. His concern is that he's hungry, uncomfortable, and unhappy, even in the face of a wider world of wonder and adventure. Like going to see the Sphinx and Pyramids and all the while complaining about the heat and wondering where to get a hamburger and coke for lunch. He does not travel well.
5. Any other thoughts on the setting?
It seems to set up another reversal of Bilbo and the Dwarves. No doubt the Dwarves will be glad to see Laketown and overjoyed to see the Lonely Mountain. Again, Bilbo will be the odd man out.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
May 26 2009, 6:00pm
Post #9 of 13
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What did Bilbo expect the Lonely Mountain to be like?
It’s telling that, at his first view of the Misty Mountains a few chapters ago, he asks if that was "the mountain". His sense of the scope of the world is small, and he has had nothing to prepare him for the great expanses of the world or unusual sights like the Lonely Mountain.
Is he having second thoughts about this adventure?
Probably thirtieth thoughts!
5. Any other thoughts on the setting?
New landscape, new set of adventures coming up!
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 27 2009, 12:50am
Post #10 of 13
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1. What did Bilbo expect the Lonely Mountain to be like? Is he having second thoughts about this adventure?
He keeps hoping it would be a lot closer! After the arduous trek through Mirkwood and this ride down a river which seems never-ending, he's realizing that the "end" is literally in sight - and there's going to have to be another trek to get to it.
He's also now finding out why it's called the "lonely" mountain. It's like the Devil's Tower in Wyoming, or Uluru in Australia: some people are fascinated by these lone monoliths, others find them too eerie for their tastes. I suspect Bilbo is of the latter group.
2. What makes the land so ominous?
The land around the Lonely Mountain is the dragon's wasteland, similar to the Brown Lands. A dreary area, and constant reminder of the threat within the mountain.
3. How does the description of the Lake compare with that of the Mountain?
They are so huge, and he is just a little hobbit! But I notice that where the Lake is given dimensions, the Mountain is given just an exclamation.
4.What sort of atmosphere (or setup for the rest of the book) is Tolkien giving us here?
We should have a baaad feeling about this...
(I bet you know who the poet is, from whom I snitched the subject line!)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Laerasëa
Dor-Lomin
May 29 2009, 3:41am
Post #11 of 13
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l--(A--le-af--fa--ll--s)--one--l--iness
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e. e. cummings!! I like that poem a lot.
Very interesting point about the lake and the mountain!! That's really cool, I didn't notice! But the ambiguity certainly does seem to separate the lake from the mountain, reading over those parts.
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Traveling Journal Official Site
The journal is finally in America!!
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Curious
Gondolin
May 29 2009, 6:04am
Post #12 of 13
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More like Mount Fuji or Mount Shasta, I always thought.
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It's like the Devil's Tower in Wyoming, or Uluru in Australia: some people are fascinated by these lone monoliths, others find them too eerie for their tastes. I suspect Bilbo is of the latter group.
The Lonely Mountain seems too big and too active to be called a monolith. To me it resembles a lone volcano, with the dragon resembling the constant threat of eruption.
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
May 31 2009, 3:47pm
Post #13 of 13
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1. What did Bilbo expect the Lonely Mountain to be like? Is he having second thoughts about this adventure?
... has had his fill of mountains by now. Especially this one, knowing just getting there won't bring the travel to an end. If anything, it's opening what will prove to be the worse part of the whole adventure. I like his excitement when he first thought he saw the mountain so long ago; but now, it's just another obstacle to overcome so he can go home.
2. What makes the land so ominous? Is the land really that changed, or is it just fear of Smaug working its way into people's minds? (note: it is suggested that the townspeople believe that Smaug is behind the earthquakes and floods; how might that be possible?) If they are simply afraid, what has kept the townspeople living in the middle of the lake, instead of moving?
Besides Gondor, I can't think of another realm that has gone through so many changes from means not of their own making as these lands have. Lake-town really does resemble Minas Tirith in terms of living in the shadow of impending doom. In both cases, it really is just a matter of time before something happens. Just like living in southern California on an earthquake faultline. You know someday something's going to happen... AGAIN!
Thanks lots Laerasea!!!
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
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