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Istar Indigo
Nevrast
May 24 2009, 12:28pm
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Tolkien at UVM
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Greetings all!
It is that time of year again where my UVM students have been encouraged to register and place their questions on this site. I have reminded them of the etiquette of this discussion board and all boards. I hope to have a few students take advantage (for extra credit) of the depth of knowledge and seriousness of enquiry found at this site. Students will hopefully place "at UVM" in their usernames and use this space to direct their questions.
This is the beginning of Week 2 of our four week summer course. Please attach new questions to this thread.
yours,
Chris Vaccaro
[Istar Indigo]
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kejensenuvm
Lindon
May 25 2009, 6:21pm
Post #2 of 21
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May I ask of others opinions and thoughts regarding Lady Galadriel's mirror
Why do you suppose Lady Galadriel invited Sam to look as well? Why not the others as well?
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squire
Gondolin
May 25 2009, 6:34pm
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"It is hardly possible to separate you from him, even when he is summoned to look in the mirror and you are not."
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Galadriel discovers that she cannot detach Sam from Frodo, no matter how important the occasion. Elrond and Faramir have the same experience.
Since Sam is there, Galadriel indulges his curiosity to see Elvish "magic" - which also addresses our curiosity for the same thing. I think Galadriel is amusing herself here, but this is also an example of the little people "troubling the counsels of the Wise and the Great".
In a larger sense, I think this is the beginning of the switch wherein Sam, not Frodo, ends up as the "hero" of the epic. Not that the reader picks up on this during the first reading, of course.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 26 2009, 12:09am
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I'm intrigued by its elemental nature and how it interacts with the people who view it. Both the Elves and Hobbits live closely with nature, so does this help them interact with the mirror? Would Saruman (with his mind consumed by wheels and engines) or Denethor (himself consumed by his heritage and rank, and locked by choice within a city) see anything if they looked into the mirror?
Or would the powers of Ulmo, who is present in all water, be able to connect with anyone at all?
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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sador
Gondolin
May 26 2009, 5:43am
Post #5 of 21
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What difference do you think Sam made?
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Did his presence help or hinder Frodo's offering the Ring to Galadriel?
Was this Galadriel's plan in suggesting Frodo to look in the mirror?
If that was her plan, it actually succeeded rather than failed.
Without Sam looking first, Frodo might have declined the offer to look; and Sam, after looking, actually intended to desert Frodo and go back! Of course he wouldn't have done that, but Frodo was shown that even Sam was not 100% reliable, and that he had another identity apart from being a servant.
Perhaps she was trying to get Frodo to drop the Ring and bolt, or refuse the Quest. As it was, he did neither - he offered her the Ring freely, handing the choice over to her. A great risk - but it ultimately succeeded, as after a momentary faltering she passed the test with flying colours.
"I could eat anything in the wide world now, for hours on end - but not an apple!" - Fili
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Istar Indigo
Nevrast
May 26 2009, 1:35pm
Post #6 of 21
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Great point, Squire.
I too see Sam as becoming the "central" hero of the romance, but never located this scene as a significant turning point. Of course, the story has many heroes of various modes and genre-types, but Sam definitely seems the hero for a modern twentieth-century audience as his future relationship to the Shire suggests [ie. he continues to belong to his low-mimetic community after the quest is over]. This scene reveals Sam's investment in his community and sets him up as potential hero ready to return and fight. Of course, returning is the least likely way of saving the Shire at this point; only Frodo's heroic/martyr-like sacrifice (with the help of other characters) can "save the day" according to the plot restrictions.
II
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Curious
Gondolin
May 26 2009, 7:21pm
Post #7 of 21
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Sam undergoes the same temptation here as Frodo
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underwent in the Barrow-mound, the temptation to flee. Sam finds his courage, and prepares to become the "real hero" of the quest. During the trip down the Anduin we begin to see things through Sam's eyes, and not just through Frodo's -- for a long while they share duty, whereas before this point we almost always saw the story from Frodo's point of view. Then when they enter Mordor Frodo is stung, captured, and suffers the burden of the Ring, becoming mostly incapacitated while Sam takes over the protagonist's role.
But note that Sam's real heroism in the Shire is less about fighting than about rebuilding. Merry leads the fight, and Pippin is his primary helper. Sam earns some reknown at the Battle of Bywater, but more importantly he leads the rebuilding, both by planting trees and by serving as the political leader of the Shire. And of course Galadriel's gift to Sam is vital to that rebuilding effort -- which by the way resembles the tempting vision the Ring offers Sam, where he makes the whole world into a garden.
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Istar Indigo
Nevrast
May 28 2009, 5:57pm
Post #8 of 21
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Did I lose some of your response? II
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Curious
Gondolin
May 28 2009, 7:05pm
Post #9 of 21
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Why do you ask?
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sai_uvm
Registered User
May 29 2009, 10:34pm
Post #10 of 21
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Knowledge provides choices for our heroes
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I think Galadriel's mirror serves as a symbol of the ambiguity of the gift of knowledge. Whatever one sees while looking into the mirror is not guaranteed to happen, or it could also be something that has already happened, but the visions do influence the actions of whoever is looking at it. After looking into the mirror, Sam has the urge to go back to the Shire and Frodo makes the choice of offering the Ring to Galadriel. I think the purpose of the mirror is to offer choices to our heroes. It gives them knowledge which they are free to use to make their decisions. In the end both Sam and Frodo make the correct decision to continure their journey to Mordor and destroy the Ring.
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Curious
Gondolin
May 29 2009, 11:43pm
Post #11 of 21
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Prophetic visions aren't reliable.
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Galadriel warns Frodo and Sam about that, and the Witch-king learns it first hand. Also, those who are tempted by the Ring learn that seemingly-prophetic visions are not always to be trusted.
So what's the point? I think it serves the story-external purpose of foreshadowing, and the story-internal purpose of revealing, in hindsight, that there is a Plan. As Gandalf says to Bilbo at the end of The Hobbit, "'you don't really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your sole benefit?'"
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kejensenuvm
Lindon
May 30 2009, 11:50pm
Post #12 of 21
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To be honest, this particular moment in the book is not my favorite.
Frodo already fears and speculates about the journey's dangers in front of him and needs not more, but rather endurance. And i don't feel Sam needed to worry about home as he needs so much energy to worry for his own and his company's current condition.
I think, after the loss of dear Gandalf, this horrifying view into the mirror shocks them again to think about why they must must must continue on and destroy the Ring and all its evil
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FarFromHome
Doriath
May 31 2009, 7:25pm
Post #13 of 21
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that Galadriel may have been following a "plan" here to induce Frodo to offer her the Ring. It sounds very manipulative, but it's not ruled out, I think, by what we are told. I think the impression we get of her is as a high and wise being above such petty subterfuge - but the impression we get of her is through the eyes of the hobbits, after all. Still, I don't see someone of Galadriel's stature stooping to such a "plan", at least not consciously. She more than anyone would know how plans made through dishonest motives tend to backfire. But perhaps her desire for the Ring has an influence on her thinking that even she is not aware of.
I don't think the issue of Sam's being "100% reliable" is an issue at all - after all, Frodo intended to leave him and all the others behind before he got to Mordor anyway. I would also suggest that Frodo has known about Sam's other "identity" for a long time now - at least since that moment when he predicted that he would be "a wizard, or a warrior". And since Galadriel appears to have heard everything the two hobbits have been conversing about, and has also looked into their thoughts, she would surely have understood all this.
My thought about this scene is that Sam's looking in the Mirror serves two narrative purposes. First, Tolkien needs to show us how the Mirror is supposed to work, before we get to see how it is subverted by the Ring when Frodo looks into it. So Sam shows us the "default experience" against which Frodo's experience can be measured. (It's a bit like the way we see the soldiers of Rohan being seduced by Saruman's words, so that the lack of effect on our heroes has something to be measured against.) Secondly, I agree with squire that this is one of those moments when Sam starts moving into "chief hero" position himself. Still, as in several previous occasions, this is disguised as no more than what I mentioned first - Sam as a foil for Frodo.
What I find interesting is that Sam receives two clear visions - the trees being cut down in the Shire, and Frodo asleep in Cirith Ungol. Both are true visions - yet both lead him astray. His vision of the trees tempts him to leave and go home, and later, his memory of his vision of Frodo asleep will make him second-guess himself and decide that Frodo is actually dead ("And suddenly he saw that he was in the picture that was revealed to him in the mirror of Galadriel in Lórien: Frodo with a pale face lying fast asleep under a great dark cliff. Or fast asleep he had thought then. ‘He’s dead!’ he said. ‘Not asleep, dead!’"). Even true visions, it seems, are "dangerous as a guide of deeds" and can still lead you astray if you are not able to handle the knowledge you have been given.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 1 2009, 2:51am
Post #14 of 21
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Different idea of what they need
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To be honest, this particular moment in the book is not my favorite.
Frodo already fears and speculates about the journey's dangers in front of him and needs not more, but rather endurance. And i don't feel Sam needed to worry about home as he needs so much energy to worry for his own and his company's current condition.
I think, after the loss of dear Gandalf, this horrifying view into the mirror shocks them again to think about why they must must must continue on and destroy the Ring and all its evil
Good points, but sometimes what one needs is to confront what one doesn't need. Galadriel has a somewhat spooky reputation among her neighbors, because she tempts people--but she does so for good purposes. She confronts people with the temptations that they don't even confide to themselves, because it's the temptations that we refuse to admit to that are most likely to catch us by surprise and trip us up in the end. She makes each visitor confront the weakest link in his own character--so that he can conquer it within the safety of Lorien, rather than suddenly coming upon it out in the dangerous world, where he'd be most vulnerable to giving in.
Sam has to confront the possibility of divided loyalty, because loyalty may be a fine thing indeed, but so far he's tapped into nothing else to keep him going. He has to see that there's a larger picture, beyond Frodo, beyond the Gaffer, that he has to serve, even if necessary at their expense.
Frodo already fears, as you point out, but the mirror doesn't confront him with running away. It confronts him with running forward into the arms of evil--it confronts him with giving in. In the final vision he sees the Eye of Sauron, and the Ring yearns for it, dragging him down, dragging him towards the eye. This is the real struggle that he must face from that day forward: the struggle not to surrender to the evil to which the Ring tries to drag him.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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sador
Gondolin
Jun 1 2009, 7:25am
Post #15 of 21
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Especially on how you read Galadriel's confession that for long years she has pondered what to do once she had the One Ring, and that she had greatly desired to ask Frodo for it.
I think most people would read it as no more than a proof that every saint is subject to temptation - but I can hardly see Tolkien showing us a Last_Temptation_of_Christ-equivalent.
Considering what we know of Galadriel from The Silmarillion and UT, I would see her more as the last heir of Noldorin Imperial ambition; and note that she has used her Ring extensively, far more than Elrond and Gandalf did (if at all, which I supposed they did but is not clearly stated).
I take her words on desiring the Ring very seriously (including her toying with the idea of seizing it by force), and her temptation as a matter of touch-and-go. She started her career as a rebel, and continued it with refusing the pardon of the Valar. As far as she knows it, she stands alone in this world, with no going back.
Her temptation is nothing more than offering her a chance to fulfill her desires - and, as Tom Shippey notes, the concept of the Ring turning everyone to Evil is an assertion the readers take on trust (especially with the experience of the 20th century) - but is never quite proven, nor would it be intuitively obvious to anyone a hundred years ago (think of The Lord of Flies as opposed to Coral Island - a comparison Golding made explicitly in his book).
And note the price she has to pay for rejecting the Ring: no less than the destruction of Elvendom in Middle-Earth! Remember the description at the end of The History of Aragorn and Arwen, and note that Sam's mallorn if the only one left in Middle-Earth. As I've argued when we discussed that chapter, she in 'Farewell to Lorien' she surrenders the Elfstone (to Aragorn), her Light (to Frodo) and her Garden (to Sam). Is that not enough to seriously tempt her?
Well, we have serious reasons not to read the book that way: first of all, would Gandalf and Elrond be such utter fools as not to notice her designs? (well, they did miss Saruman's)
Also we actually have the dubious Boromir pointing out both the peril in her and her having her own agenda, which might not be trustworty - but he is rebuked by Aragorn, whom we fully trust and believe in; so it must be that she is a saint!
(Only note that Gimli later feels the peril and temptation of her, Treebeard also confirms it, and so does Faramir, with the benefit of hindsight).
As a matter of fact, I think the question should rather be how Galadriel did manage to pass her test? What made her better than Saruman, Denethor, Boromir?
It could be a comment on the intrinsic value of beauty and light. Definitely as compared with Saruman, and to a lesser extent with Denethor too - both have succunbed to the sin of pride, and thinking that the wisdom which would apply to the common clay does not apply to them (re: the way the Rohirrim understood Saruman's speech to Gandalf). Galadriel's sin is even worse - in refusing Grace twice; but the mere fact she is still on the side of beauty and light, and cleaves to the memory of Valinorean bliss, is a saving grace, which enables her reject the old sinful disobedience, and finally submit to the Valar.
I get the feeling Tolkien is quite ambivalent about the 'secular' virtues, and he seems to suggest that being faithful to them might ultimately help one return to the right path, and chose correctly when faced with a choice. Galadriel is an argument for virtue over vice, even when one chooses virtue disregarding the true (i.e. religious) reason for doing so. Judaism has a similar concept; I do not know if Catholic theology does.
On the other hand, we could look at it from a psychological point of view (which you might like better). If Frodo would fail, and refuse the Quest, Galadriel would happily step in to save it, for some time - probably not immediately challanging Sauron, but waiting for his move, and using the Ring only as the very last resort (like Denethor said he would, and I believe him - although he would be likely to see the last and uttermost need too soon, like he did when he committed suicide). She would like Frodo to break down, or sees that he will and hopes that he does so when in Lothlorien.
But when Frodo offers her the Ring freely, she is forced to actively choose. To take the One Ring would not be stepping in to save the world; it would be claiming for herself the title of the White Queen as opposed to the Dark Lord. Faced with that horror, she must make up her mind - but the moment of freedom is enough for her to realise she must reject it.
Would Saruman do so? Possibly very early in his career, definitely not by the time of the War of the Ring.
Would Denethor? I wonder; but he does seem too morbid at this stage to even think of the long-term consequences.
Would Boromir? I cannot say; he was clearly driven over the edge by being mistrusted all along, and by Frodo's refusing to deal with him openly, while following blindly the wisom of elves (going as far as freely offering the One Ring to someone who desires it!) I would love to think he could redeem himself by refusing the Ring, rather than by his death; but there is no indication in Tolkien that he would.
"And winter comes after autumn." - Bifur
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jun 1 2009, 8:07am
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You make some excellent points about the nature of Evil as it came to be understood in the 20th century, and about the subtext of Galadriel's ambiguous character. I completely agree with your point of view here - I do think that Galadriel, although presented (through the hobbits' eyes) as a saint, also shows hints of the sinner she could have been, if she had had less wisdom and self-control.
It could be a comment on the intrinsic value of beauty and light....I get the feeling Tolkien is quite ambivalent about the 'secular' virtues, and he seems to suggest that being faithful to them might ultimately help one return to the right path, and chose correctly when faced with a choice. Galadriel is an argument for virtue over vice, even when one chooses virtue disregarding the true (i.e. religious) reason for doing so. Judaism has a similar concept; I do not know if Catholic theology does.
Catholicism would indeed value the "secular" virtues embodied in beauty and light (at least as I understand Catholicism). Unlike the Protestant sects that reacted against Catholic excesses in this direction, Catholicism regards the beauty of art, and light, as a reflection and inspiration of religious virtues - as the medieval cathedrals show very clearly.
Overall, I agree wholeheartedly with your arguments here about Galadriel's temptations. For me, it's much more satisfying to believe that what we are told overtly is only part of the story, and that there is much that the hobbits, whose story this is, either didn't want to tell or didn't fully understand. The hints that we get in LotR, and that are expanded in other parts of the legendarium, make Galadriel a much richer and more complex character than the one we get if we accept everything we are told at face value.
I'm still not convinced, though, that Galadriel would have knowingly stooped to tempting Frodo and Sam, via their visions in the Mirror, simply to advance her own agenda. Perhaps indeed she was testing them, to see whether they were up to the job (as you say, this would give her a great excuse for taking the Ring herself). But I still read the Mirror scene as a fair test that was meant as a favour to the hobbits and that in the end was helpful to both of them, since it allowed them to confront their unacknowledged fears (as Dreamdeer points out so well somewhere else in this thread).
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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sador
Gondolin
Jun 1 2009, 8:09am
Post #17 of 21
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"And winter comes after autumn." - Bifur
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 1 2009, 2:05pm
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Galadriel is more tempted than Gandalf or Elrond,
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it appears, and she has more to lose, too. Lothlorien is a piece of the Undying Lands in Middle-earth, or as close as one can come to that, and Galadriel is an unrepentant rebel who refused amnesty. Oh, I know that later Tolkien tried to rewrite her part, but that's who she was when he wrote LotR. I wonder if Gandalf would have let her be alone with Frodo and the Ring if he had survived Moria.
I think Galadriel brought Frodo to the Mirror, and incidentally Sam as well, since they were inseparable, as a test for the hobbits, similar to but stronger than the test she already gave them when she looked long into their eyes on their first meeting. But Frodo turned the tables by offering her the Ring outright, testing her more than she had tested him. I don't think Galadriel manipulated what Frodo saw in the Mirror, but I do think she had an idea what he would see, and wanted to see if he was up to the task. I do think she was surprised when Frodo offered her the Ring. Taking it from him may well have crossed her mind, but I don't think she expected Frodo to offer it to her so freely.
As for the purpose of the visions, I continue to think they serve two purposes. The story-external purpose is to tease the reader with untrustworthy foreshadowing. The story-internal purpose is to show, in hindsight, that there is a Plan, although the characters, including even Gandalf, perceive the future of the Plan dimly, if at all, as if through a dark and warped glass, and often see it best only in hindsight. But the visions and dreams that do prove to be prophetic, such as Frodo's vision of Gandalf on Orthanc, encourage someone like Frodo to have faith in the Plan, and to do what is right at whatever cost even when all seems lost, trusting that Providence will take care of the rest, however unlikely that may seem, and even if he has no hope for himself.
Thus, later Frodo is willing to put his life in Gollum's untrustworthy hands because he believes that he is fated to make it to Mount Doom. Indeed, until Gollum persuaded him to take another route Frodo was willing to walk right up to the Black Gates for the same reason. Frodo believes in his Fate or Doom to bring him to Mount Doom, although he doesn't have a clear idea of what will happen once he gets there. Similarly, Frodo believes that Gollum will play some part in the fate of the Ring, although again he does not have a clear idea of what it will be.
Frodo is following the example of Gandalf and Strider, who also pay close attention to signs and portents, but in the end are willing to sacrifice all to do what is right, trusting that Providence will take care of the rest. Thus Gandalf and Aragorn both foresee that something terrible awaits Gandalf in Moria, but Gandalf is willing to take that risk. Aragorn thinks he is turning away from both the Ring and Minas Tirith when he follows Merry and Pippin, but he lets virtue overcome logic. Prisoners must not be left behind. Providence will take care of the righteous.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jun 1 2009, 3:54pm
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The story-internal purpose is to show, in hindsight, that there is a Plan...
Since, as you say, the foreshadowing is "untrustworthy", I find it hard to deduce from that that there is a Plan. Especially a Plan that can only be seen in hindsight - after all, everything that happens looks like a Plan (or a purposeful unfolding of events) afterwards.
Frodo is following the example of Gandalf and Strider, who also pay close attention to signs and portents, but in the end are willing to sacrifice all to do what is right, trusting that Providence will take care of the rest. .... Providence will take care of the righteous.
I disagree that Frodo, or the others, trust that Providence will take care of them if they are "righteous". On the contrary, they choose to do what is right regardless of whether they will be taken care of. You could say perhaps that they place their fate entirely in the hands of Providence, but it's surely without any sense of confidence that Providence will reward them for it. Their reward comes from their willingness not to expect anything in return for their sacrifice. Which means that they would have acted in the same way (and incidentally, with the same result) whether or not Providence influenced events. And that's how it should be - this is about the power of faith, and it's faith itself that moves mountains, with no way of knowing for sure whether Providence takes an active part or not.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 1 2009, 4:36pm
Post #21 of 21
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Thanks for clarifying. Yes, it is hard to deduce a Plan from visions and dreams that are so untrustworthy. Skeptics can easily point to examples of visions and dreams that were false or misleading, and question the Plan. So the evidence tends to convince only those who need no convincing, those who were already believers. Nevertheless, I do think prophecies provided comfort to believers when they came true, as at the end of The Hobbit or in the Council of Elrond when Frodo realized his vision of Gandalf was a true vision.
And yes, I did not mean that Providence necessarily rewards the righteous in the immediate future in this world, versus at the end of time (for the Ainur or Elves or Dwarves or Ents) or in the next world (for Men). Eventually, right behavior will be rewarded, at least for men -- that's why Gandalf says Boromir was saved, even though he died. I think that eventually the immortals will be rewarded as well, which is why Galadriel speaks of meeting Treebeard again in Arda Remade. I also think, though, that virtue is its own reward, and that those who do right are not calculating benefits and losses when they do so. But the occasional hint that there is a Plan still provides comfort and Consolation, a far off gleam of Evangelium, as Tolkien called it.
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