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Kelvarhin
Gondolin
May 21 2009, 2:34am
Post #1 of 31
(2452 views)
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Barrels Out of Bond Part III
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Hi Guys, sorry about this being late. I'm posting when I can at the moment. The weather has finally remembered that we're heading into winter and we've been hit by storms since yesterday afternoon and my power keeps dropping out. Anyway here's the latest lot of questions.
The prisoners are fed and Bilbo overhears the king's butler and the chief of the guards discussing a feast that night. There is much talk of Bilbo's luck in this paragraph and at other times. Do you believe in luck or do you think we make the most of existing circumstances? Is this really what Bilbo did?
Bilbo follows the two elves and waits as they drink themselves senseless. How long do you think this would take? Is the wine 'fortified' and that's why it's so potent? He then steals the keys and sets off to free the Dwarves. When Balin is released he immediately wanted to discuss how Bilbo had achieved it. Why do you think he does this? Would you, when you know that there are still others to free?
Bilbo puts him in his place and tells him "No time now!" Don't you just love it when the 'little' guy steps up? (I don't just mean Bilbo here).
The Dwarves prove to be clumsy in the dark. Isn't this a little surprising given that Dwarves are miners and should be at home in the dark? Is it solely due to their incarceration? Afterall they have been given food and water and are probably in much better shape than Bilbo at this time.
There is a great Autumn Feast of the elves taking place, do you think this corresponds with the real world celebrations of the harvest etc?
The Dwarves protest Bilbos plans, yet have none of their own. This seems to characterise the Dwarves all through this adventure. They can talk the good talk, but their planning is non-existent. Do you agree?
Bilbo shows his kind heart by returning the keys to the guard, to "save him some of the trouble he is in for". He also muses over the puzzle it will set the elves too. Did you enjoy the set up of this puzzle for the elves and the quiet humour portrayed by Bilbo?
After reading through this section, if you were Bilbo would you still want to help the Dwarves?
Catch you next time the powers working.
Kel x
Warning items may fade in the wash.
Kelvarhin's Universe~~~~~~~Laerasea's Travelling TORn Journal
One book to rule them all
One book to find them
One book to bring them all
And in TORn bind them
In the land of TORnadoes...where the brilliant play
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
May 21 2009, 6:49am
Post #2 of 31
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Do you believe in luck or do you think we make the most of existing circumstances?
To quote Obi-Wan Kenobi, "In my experience there's no such thing as luck." 
Of course we must make the most of our circumstances, but just like Tolkien believed as a Catholic, I believe as a Christian in a God who does not even miss a sparrow falling from the sky - everything is in the palm of His hand & is our destiny.
This is a constant theme in Tolkien's work as the powers to be 'meant' Bilbo to find the Ring for example.
Is this really what Bilbo did?
Well of course he made the most of his circumstances....
As he told the Dwarves that complained, if they didn't like his plan, they could go back and wait for another oppurtunity to come along (chance or luck or destiny or 'existing circumstances', whatever word you prefer)
How long do you think this would take?
A few hours, as long as it takes to get drunk.
Is the wine 'fortified' and that's why it's so potent?
Certainly not. It is called the 'heady vintage of Dorwinion'. Some wines are stronger than others. I have some that are 14% alcohol. I guess that's 'heady'.
Isn't this a little surprising given that Dwarves are miners and should be at home in the dark? Is it solely due to their incarceration?
I'm sure that may be part of it, but Dwarves constantly make noise when moving compared to the Hobbit. Bilbo is always saying "Drat the Dwarvish racket." So, it's not that unusual.
There is a great Autumn Feast of the elves taking place, do you think this corresponds with the real world celebrations of the harvest etc?
Not quite sure I get the question.....
Any real world festivals in the Northern Hemispere would naturally be in Autumn. The Jewish feast of the gathering in of the fruits (Succouth) is in the Fall
The Elves seem to be carrying on a tradition learned from the Valar in Valinor.
Melkor & Ungoliant come to destroy the Two Trees at a time of harvest festival.
Bilbo shows his kind heart by returning the keys to the guard, to "save him some of the trouble he is in for". He also muses over the puzzle it will set the elves too. Did you enjoy the set up of this puzzle for the elves and the quiet humour portrayed by Bilbo?
I never gave it much thought.
After reading through this section, if you were Bilbo would you still want to help the Dwarves?
Good grief, yes.
Friends (and people) don't have to preform well to be given help.
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sador
Gondolin
May 21 2009, 7:50am
Post #3 of 31
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Do you believe in luck or do you think we make the most of existing circumstances?
In RL? Depends on what you call 'luck'.
If it is a power some people have to create favourable circumstances, then no; but I do believe that God acts in this world in His own mysterious ways, and much of what is passed over as 'chance' is actually more than that.
Is this really what Bilbo did?
It was making the most - it took a lot of research and planning and a magic Ring of invisibilty - and even then needed exact timing and taking the chance the elves will check one of the heavier barrels. Just think if they decided to check one of them, when half of the dwarves were already in the river and the others still inside!
How long do you think this would take? Is the wine 'fortified' and that's why it's so potent?
It is a very good vintage.
But once again - it is a long chance he's taking.
Why do you think he does this?
Bilbo has fooled him once already; he doesn't want to be fooled again.
Would you, when you know that there are still others to free?
Put like that, of course not!
But being suddenly and unexpectedly set free - I would be likely to explode with questions; and as you know - when I have questions, I do ask them.
Don't you just love it when the 'little' guy steps up? (I don't just mean Bilbo here).
What else do you mean? The downtrodden fellow getting even with his betters?
Do you like Uriah Heep?
Isn't this a little surprising given that Dwarves are miners and should be at home in the dark?
They're not used to the place, and were never renowned for being silent; however, it might seem a bit surprising.
Is it solely due to their incarceration? Afterall they have been given food and water and are probably in much better shape than Bilbo at this time.
Stolen goods are always better!
There is a great Autumn Feast of the elves taking place, do you think this corresponds with the real world celebrations of the harvest etc?
Do you harvest in autumn, i.e. grow your grain in the summer? Where I live, the harvesting festival is in spring, and the ingathering of fruit in autumn.
But if Middle-earth is in the Northren parts of the world, far from the equator - perhaps they do harvest in summer; there is something in Unfinished Tales about the agricultural festivals in Numenor, but I haven't got that book with me here.
Anyway, I don't see these elves as reaping the harvest (why, are they Entwives or something?); it's more a part of being in tune with Nature.
Do you agree?
No, not really. They don't have the relevant information to make a better plan.
As a rule - religious, political, military and econimic leaders know far more than you do, and often you are really unable to offer a better plan to theirs. Does that prevent you from criticising them?
Did you enjoy the set up of this puzzle for the elves and the quiet humour portrayed by Bilbo?
Judging by this incident alone - I wouldn't really see it as a kind heart - it's more of covering the tracks properly. If the guard hasn't lost the key, the method of escape cannot be pinpointed, and the elves won't intercept the barrels somewhere on the way.
But it is a sign of a good heart - as we will see in 'A Thief at Night', when Bilbo does the same by returning to save Bombur from trouble.
After reading through this section, if you were Bilbo would you still want to help the Dwarves?
What alternative would I have? It's hanging together or hanging seperately.
"There's nothing in the feeling of weight in an idle toss-pot's arms." - Galion
(This post was edited by sador on May 21 2009, 7:53am)
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Twit
Menegroth
May 21 2009, 8:59am
Post #4 of 31
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Do you believe in luck or do you think we make the most of existing circumstances?
Good luck or good timing? Yes he made the most of the circumstances, but yes, it was also lucky he happened to be around when they were preparing a celebration.
Is this really what Bilbo did?
he was in the right time at the right place and he made the most of it yes. He was lucky that he wasn't caught.
How long do you think this would take? Is the wine 'fortified' and that's why it's so potent?
How big were the cups? How quickly did they drink? Had they lined their stomachs first or were they drinking on an empty stomach?
Could have been an hour, depending on the circumstances really. I mean drinking a pint of sherry on an empty stomach in say 5-10 minutes could make a person sleepy.
Why do you think he does this? Would you, when you know that there are still others to free?
It's nature, it seems as if he can't quite believe he is free and that Bilbo was behind it. Yes, I probably would, as I was hurrying along to save the others.
Don't you just love it when the 'little' guy steps up? (I don't just mean Bilbo here).
Yes.
The Dwarves prove to be clumsy in the dark. Isn't this a little surprising given that Dwarves are miners and should be at home in the dark? Is it solely due to their incarceration?
It didn't strike me as odd until you mentioned it, I suppose I just thought that compared to Bilbo they were just noisier and clumsier. Also I always seem unable to walk quietly, and bump into things when sneaking in to check on a baby at night. And sneaking in a 4am after a night out when I was younger.
There is a great Autumn Feast of the elves taking place, do you think this corresponds with the real world celebrations of the harvest etc?
In England yes, I guess the same could be said for most of Europe as well.
Do you agree?
I do. But they are still only just recognising Bilbo's true worth I think at this point.
Did you enjoy the set up of this puzzle for the elves and the quiet humour portrayed by Bilbo?
It shows us that although Bilbo is willing to sneak around and steal food, he is aware of the moral implications, and doesn't wish any harm.
After reading through this section, if you were Bilbo would you still want to help the Dwarves?
Yes, he needs them and he too is a prisoner in Mirkwood and the fortress, whether he is locked up or not.
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Curious
Gondolin
May 21 2009, 12:44pm
Post #5 of 31
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Do you believe in luck or do you think we make the most of existing circumstances?
I believe in Bilbo's luck, to be sure. But I also think it is more than luck, as Gandalf says at the end of the book.
In the Primary World I think that luck matters when all else is equal, but we have to work hard to make all else equal. I also think that optimism, or a belief in one's luck, can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. A simple example is looking for a parking spot in the city. My wife is convinced that she has parking luck, and that belief helps her find a spot when others would give up the search. On the other hand, she also has keen eyesight, has spent a lifetime in the city, knows to look for people walking towards their cars, and leaves extra time to find a spot. All of that contributes to her "luck."
Is this really what Bilbo did?
Luck alone is not enough, as we learned with Gollum, who had the same luck as Bilbo in finding the ring, but lacked the courage or wits to escape the goblins. So what Bilbo did was not just about luck, but luck was certainly a factor.
How long do you think [falling asleep due to the potent wine] would take?
Not long, according to the book.
Is the wine 'fortified' and that's why it's so potent?
Maybe, or perhaps it is pure brandy, or brandywine, as it was originally called -- distilled wine, in other words.
Why do you think [Balin asks how Bilbo freed him]?
Natural curiosity.
Would you, when you know that there are still others to free?
Does he know that? At any rate, he is quickly reminded of it, and holds his questions.
Don't you just love it when the 'little' guy steps up?
Sure.
Isn't [the dwarves stumbling in the dark] a little surprising given that Dwarves are miners and should be at home in the dark?
They need some light.
Is it solely due to their incarceration?
No.
There is a great Autumn Feast of the elves taking place, do you think this corresponds with the real world celebrations of the harvest etc?
Sure, why not? Although I don't see the elves as farmers. But since Tolkien felt uncomfortable incorporating religion into his Secondary World the holidays tend to celebrate the change of seasons.
The Dwarves protest Bilbos plans, yet have none of their own. This seems to characterise the Dwarves all through this adventure. They can talk the good talk, but their planning is non-existent. Do you agree?
I would say it is worse than that. When the dwarves do come up with a plan, as for example when they run into the trolls, or when they try to join the elves' feasts, or when Thorin decides to fight for Smaug's treasure, it usually results in a near-disaster.
Did you enjoy the set up of this puzzle for the elves and the quiet humour portrayed by Bilbo?
Yes.
After reading through this section, if you were Bilbo would you still want to help the Dwarves?
Yes. Although I might also want to drown them -- which is very nearly what happens.
(This post was edited by Curious on May 21 2009, 12:48pm)
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batik
Dor-Lomin
May 21 2009, 2:07pm
Post #6 of 31
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"...there's a good fellow!" :)
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Do you believe in luck or do you think we make the most of existing circumstances? Is this really what Bilbo did?
luck: fortune, either good or bad
fortune: the good or ill that happens to mankind; chance; fate; future destiny
That's something I have wondered about for a while. I suppose I identify "luck" with events/circumstances for which I cannot identify a logical reason for being. Of course those events tend to be more complicated and/or life-altering. The odd chance of being lucky enough to catch a good sale or finding a parking spot--I can ususally figure of how that happened (or make the most of existing circumstances). In Bilbo's case I think he used his wits to recognize this opportunity. Tolkien seems to reinforce the idea of deciding/doing (which Gandalf will state in precise terms later) as being as important as destiny/"meant to".
How long do you think this would take?
(...deleting the "drinking game" file) how long is "soon" and "very soon"--the tim" it took for them to laugh merrily and for the chief guard to nod off? Under an hour?
Is the wine 'fortified' and that's why it's so potent?
Probably. Tsk, tsk sounds like they may have ignored the *rule* about drinking on a empty stomach.
Why do you think he does this? Would you, when you know that there are still others to free?
Maybe to make sure this isn't some kind of trap or trick? Yes, after bring locked up for a week or two I probably would ask questions--if only to make conversation.
Don't you just love it when the 'little' guy steps up? (I don't just mean Bilbo here).
Yes, it's good to see a display of assertiveness.
Isn't this a little surprising given that Dwarves are miners and should be at home in the dark? Is it solely due to their incarceration?
I do imagine their being confined played a role in this. While the Dwarves were probably fed well enough, I would think they would still be a bit disoriented when they were able to move about after having experienced restricted movement for a while.
do you think this corresponds with the real world celebrations of the harvest etc?
I think so...wasn't the approaching season mentioned earlier...as they entered Mirkwood?
He then steals the keys and sets off to free the Dwarves. When Balin is released he immediately wanted to discuss how Bilbo had achieved it. Why do you think he does this? Would you, when you know that there are still others to free?
(This post was edited by batik on May 21 2009, 2:08pm)
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
May 21 2009, 2:21pm
Post #7 of 31
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Do you believe in luck or do you think we make the most of existing circumstances?
My father always said good luck is being prepared for opportunity.
Is this really what Bilbo did?
Others might have heard the same thing Bilbo did, but not realize the opportunity, or, if they did, fail to take it.
Bilbo follows the two elves and waits as they drink themselves senseless. How long do you think this would take?
Well, I used to have a hollow leg, but nowadays alcohol puts me to sleep. A couple of drinks will put me to sleep within 15 minutes to an hour.
Is the wine 'fortified' and that's why it's so potent?
That’s a good possibility. A “fortified” wine would have a spirit (like miruvor) added to it. One can extrapolate from the effects of just one sip of miruvor to imagine the effects of swilling down a wine fortified with it.
He then steals the keys and sets off to free the Dwarves. When Balin is released he immediately wanted to discuss how Bilbo had achieved it. Why do you think he does this?
As a warrior he naturally wishes to know the extent of their current assets. This way he can make suggestions to Bilbo from a position of knowledge rather than ignorance.
Would you, when you know that there are still others to free?
Of course, *especially* when there are still others to free.
Bilbo puts him in his place and tells him "No time now!" Don't you just love it when the 'little' guy steps up? (I don't just mean Bilbo here).
I’m especially impressed that Balin accepts Bilbo’s statement, shuts up, and goes along without further questions. That a veteran like Balin is willing to set aside his own experience and place total faith in Bilbo shows a lot of confidence in the little guy.
The Dwarves prove to be clumsy in the dark. Isn't this a little surprising given that Dwarves are miners and should be at home in the dark?
One wonders exactly how much noise did they make? Are the Dwarves indeed being extremely noisy, or is it just that hobbits have very acute hearing?
For example:
“There is little or no magic about them, except the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along, making a noise like elephants which they can hear a mile off.”
If a Man out for a little walk in the woods sounds like an elephant to a hobbit, one can imagine the surreptitious movement and very quiet whispers of the Dwarves to sound like a “racket” to Bilbo.
Is it solely due to their incarceration? Afterall they have been given food and water and are probably in much better shape than Bilbo at this time.
But they’ve been cooped up and limited in movement and Bilbo has been free to move about and keep up his muscle tone.
For example, a dubious point to me in LOTR is how the galley slaves of Pelargir are able to move about and function at all after being chained to the oars. After a period of imprisonment their legs would have atrophied.
There is a great Autumn Feast of the elves taking place, do you think this corresponds with the real world celebrations of the harvest etc?
Bilbo finds the ring in July and the Battle of the Five Armies occurs in October, so it sounds about right.
The Dwarves protest Bilbos plans, yet have none of their own.
Sounds like the Republicans.
This seems to characterise the Dwarves all through this adventure.They can talk the good talk, but their planning is non-existent. Do you agree?
This really doesn’t come as no surprise. Indeed, Gandalf seems to have been herding the Dwarves along even before they got to Bag End. One wonders if they would have even started this adventure own their own.
Bilbo shows his kind heart by returning the keys to the guard, to "save him some of the trouble he is in for". He also muses over the puzzle it will set the elves too. Did you enjoy the set up of this puzzle for the elves and the quiet humour portrayed by Bilbo?
Yes.
After reading through this section, if you were Bilbo would you still want to help the Dwarves?
Sounds like herding cats.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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FarFromHome
Doriath
May 21 2009, 3:01pm
Post #8 of 31
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Do you believe in luck or do you think we make the most of existing circumstances? Is this really what Bilbo did?
Whether the idea is expressed as "You make your own luck" or as "God helps those who help themselves", it comes down to what others have said - if you "feel lucky" you will try harder and seize chances that others may miss.
Bilbo follows the two elves and waits as they drink themselves senseless. How long do you think this would take? Is the wine 'fortified' and that's why it's so potent?
Wine can go to your head pretty quickly if you drink it on an empty stomach, especially if you're rushing it because you're not meant to be drinking at all, I should think. Wines can vary greatly in alcoholic content from year to year - a good vintage might be very strong because a sunny summer will allow more sugar to develop in the grapes, which then produces a higher level of alcohol during fermentation. The variation in alcoholic content was probably greater in the past than it is now, because there's a tendency to standardize everything these days. But I get the impression that this wine was a very special vintage, and so might be pretty strong stuff.
The Dwarves prove to be clumsy in the dark. Isn't this a little surprising given that Dwarves are miners and should be at home in the dark?
The Dwarves may live and work underground, but not in darkness, as Gimli explains to Sam in Moria: "‘This is the great realm and city of the Dwarrowdelf. And of old it was not darksome, but full of light and splendour".
There is a great Autumn Feast of the elves taking place, do you think this corresponds with the real world celebrations of the harvest etc?
Yes, that seems about right. Although the Elves don't seem to be farmers, as others have mentioned, they do seem to be hunter-gatherers, and this is also the season for the gathering of fruits, and the hunting of game. So definitely a good time for a celebratory feast.
The Dwarves protest Bilbos plans, yet have none of their own. This seems to characterise the Dwarves all through this adventure. They can talk the good talk, but their planning is non-existent. Do you agree?
Yes, they seem to have lots of high ideas about great deeds, but no idea how to think on a practical level. So it's the little, ordinary guy who ends up doing what it takes. I think Tolkien might have thought the same thing about the ordinary soldiers of WWI.
Bilbo shows his kind heart by returning the keys to the guard, to "save him some of the trouble he is in for". He also muses over the puzzle it will set the elves too. Did you enjoy the set up of this puzzle for the elves and the quiet humour portrayed by Bilbo?
It shows Bilbo has a kind heart - and that he enjoys a riddle, as we have already seen. But there's also something a bit mischievous about leaving the Elves with this puzzle - he's turning a perfectly ordinary (if difficult) trick into something inexplicable and potentially magical...
After reading through this section, if you were Bilbo would you still want to help the Dwarves?
If I were Bilbo, I'd never have got this far! But I think there's a sense of pride involved now (actually there was right from the start, as Bilbo was only prodded into volunteering when he heard the Dwarves' low opinion of him). Plus, as I think the narrator says, Bilbo wouldn't have anywhere to go without the Dwarves. But I don't think he feels too much sympathy for them now - all their complaining about the discomfort of the barrels doesn't seem to bother him much!
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 21 2009, 3:31pm
Post #9 of 31
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Do you believe in luck or do you think we make the most of existing circumstances?
Luck happens all around us, but only clever people ready themselves in advance in case good fortune comes their way. For instance, it's total luck that I find the perfect piece of junk in the ranch's dumpsters to transform into a miniature bay window for a project of mine. It is not luck that I have equipped a workshop and tool collection precisely for transforming any perfect pieces of junk that might come my way.
Is this really what Bilbo did?
Yes. He made his plan in advance, and watched for the first stroke of luck that he could to put it into operation. He couldn't have done it without the unusual event of an elvish jailer getting smashed while still wearing the keys, but neither could he have done it if he hadn't scouted around first and known about the watergate (Gee, does this make it a watergate s scandal for the unfortunate jailer?
How long do you think this would take?
I'm not familiar with elvish metabolism, but I expect long enough to have Bilbo biting his nails.
Is the wine 'fortified' and that's why it's so potent?
I expect that it's probably a brandy of some sort, perhaps a natural brandy created by leaving the wine out in the snow and then removing the frozen water in the morning. That seems more elvish than distilling.
Isn't this a little surprising given that Dwarves are miners and should be at home in the dark? Is it solely due to their incarceration?
Part of the racket, no doubt, is simply a figment of Bilbo's hobbity sensitivity to noise. The clumsiness I would attribute to the dwarves not getting any exercise for a couple of weeks.
As for the dwarves fumbling in the dark, that makes me wonder if the optimum diet for dwarves might differ from the optimum diet for elves or men. I expect that, as underground creatures, root vegetables play a large role in their diets (and the Silmarillion, in fact, indicates that dwarves introduced the concept of root-vegetables to men.) They might be used to a high percentage of carrots, rich in vitamin A, helpful to seeing in the dark.
When Beorning restocked their supplies, he gave them what he had to hand: mannish food. And now the elves have been feeding them elvish food. Maybe they haven't seen a proper carrot since Rivendell. This wouldn't be a problem so long as they traveled under open sky, absorbing vitamin A from skin micro-organisms photosynthesizing sunlight (an uncharacteristic experience for a dwarf, but one so prevalent under circumstances when they're not eating dwarvish cuisine that they might never have figured out that they need lots of carrots for the dwarvish lifestyle) but as soon as they began to travel in Mirkwood, they started to slowly develop vitamin A deficiency.
There is a great Autumn Feast of the elves taking place, do you think this corresponds with the real world celebrations of the harvest etc?
I think it more corresponds to elves throwing a party every time the seasons change.
Bilbo shows his kind heart by returning the keys to the guard, to "save him some of the trouble he is in for". He also muses over the puzzle it will set the elves too. Did you enjoy the set up of this puzzle for the elves and the quiet humour portrayed by Bilbo?
I thought it was rather sweet of Bilbo--and also rather clever. If the keys vanish off of a guard found passed out besides the empty barrels, of course the elves would figure out the escape route immediately!
After reading through this section, if you were Bilbo would you still want to help the Dwarves?
Yes. I'd be used to their ways by now, as well as their compensating virtues. If you don't cut your friends some slack, you can't ask them to cut you some slack when you need it. I'll go looking for perfect friends when I become perfect, myself.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
May 21 2009, 11:16pm
Post #10 of 31
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It's nice to know that Elves can get drunk just like the rest of us! But I think that Galion is the only example of a drunk Elf! I wonder if the other Elves could get drunk as well.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
May 21 2009, 11:26pm
Post #11 of 31
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Bilbo would have said the same
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If I were Bilbo, I'd never have got this far! If the story were about someone else, and Bilbo were reading it, he would likely have said the same thing. I bet if you had to, you would rise to the occasion, just as he did. 
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
www.arda-reconstructed.com
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
May 21 2009, 11:26pm
Post #12 of 31
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water-gate/water gate/Watergate
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You made me curious about whether the naming of the infamous Watergate complex, the site of the 1970s political scandal, had any relationship to the term “water-gate” as Tolkien used it so I looked it up.
I couldn't immediately find a definition for "water-gate", but a "water gate" is “a regulator consisting of a valve or gate that controls the rate of water flow through a sluice”, a “floodgate”, or a “gate that gives access to an area of water”. That last definition sounds like what Tolkien meant in The Hobbit
Then there is the Watergate complex, consisting of office buildings and a hotel. For some time, I had assumed the name of the complex referred to the network of canals on the Potomac River and the locks that allowed barges to move along them. It surprised me to learn just now that the complex actually got its name from a nearby amphitheater of days gone by, formed of terraced steps that led down to the river. Performances for the amphitheater audience took place on a floating stage on the water. As far as the name goes, the developers also intended the amphitheater as a reception area whenever foreign dignitaries would arrive in Washington, D.C., by water. So in that sense, it was a gateway to the city by water, a “water” “gate”.
The hotel is plush and expensive, BTW. Back during my college years, a friend answered a trivia question on a radio station and won a bunch of prizes, including a suite there for a weekend. I got to stay in one of the rooms in the suite. We college kids probably stuck out like a sore thumb. They had valet parking, and the friend I rode to the hotel with had an ancient VW Rabbit. Whenever she stopped suddenly the radio would fall out of the dashboard. It also had a muffler problem, and I’m sure the loud “PPPPBBBHHFTTT!” drew stares when we pulled up to the valet stand. Then, of course, I insisted on taking a picture of a friend “breaking into” our room. Rumor had it that the Pointer Sisters were staying up on the top floor. They didn’t come out and say hi, even when we walked down the hallway and one of my more embarrassing friends started singing “We Are Family”. :o)~ When we presented the claim ticket at the end of our stay, it took a long time for the valet to return with the car. One of his coworkers at the valet stand said, “I’ll go check on him.”
A few minutes later we heard “PPPPBBBHHFTTT!” coming around the corner. When the valets got out of the car they explained that they had had to push the car to get it started. *giggle*
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The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
May 22 2009, 12:38am
Post #13 of 31
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Hi Guys, sorry about this being late. I'm posting when I can at the moment. The weather has finally remembered that we're heading into winter and we've been hit by storms since yesterday afternoon and my power keeps dropping out.
How frustrating for you! Thanks for hanging in there and posting questions anyway.
Do you believe in luck or do you think we make the most of existing circumstances? Is this really what Bilbo did?
Luck is part of existing circumstances. You can’t do anything to change it, but you should do the best you can when you happen upon it. It’s like Gandalf said about doing what we can with the time [and circumstances] in the present. Bilbo did the best he could with his luck.
Bilbo follows the two elves and waits as they drink themselves senseless. How long do you think this would take?
It would depend on how potent the wine is and maybe how tired the Elves were.
Is the wine 'fortified' and that's why it's so potent?
Could be. You make me think of port or sherry. Distillers add brandy to these wines to make them stronger. It packs a wallop, and it does seem sort of Elvish because they add the brandy before the sugar in the wine has fully fermented which stops the fermentation. So it’s sweeter and more pleasant-tasting than weaker wine (to me, anyway). The filmmakers could make something of the fortification to explain why Legolas doesn’t feel the alcohol at Meduseld yet these Elves do become intoxicated.
When Balin is released he immediately wanted to discuss how Bilbo had achieved it. Why do you think he does this? Would you, when you know that there are still others to free?
Balin comes off as an inquisitive guy who wants to know why. Come to think of it, that very curiosity may have drawn him to Moria. He also wanted the most to know details about how Bilbo snuck into the camp after their escape from the goblins and all about the ring. I’m kind of like that, yeah. I’m also a chatterer.
Bilbo puts him in his place and tells him "No time now!" Don't you just love it when the 'little' guy steps up? (I don't just mean Bilbo here).
Sure. I like people who take charge. Those conversations that go, “I don’t know. What do you want to do/eat?” drive me crackers.
The Dwarves prove to be clumsy in the dark. Isn't this a little surprising given that Dwarves are miners and should be at home in the dark? Is it solely due to their incarceration? Afterall they have been given food and water and are probably in much better shape than Bilbo at this time.
I can’t remember if it’s dark in the Elf-king’s tunnels or not. Anyway, I’ll echo what the others say about the Dwarves getting out of shape in their cells. It doesn’t sound like they’ve used their free time to exercise.
There is a great Autumn Feast of the elves taking place, do you think this corresponds with the real world celebrations of the harvest etc?
Yeah, except when I think of Thanksgiving it seems more homey and family-oriented, with a plump, red-cheeked mom carrying out a stuffed bird on a platter, and all the grown-ups at the big table and the kids at the little table. The Autumn Feast sounds more like Thanksgiving and Halloween combined. ;o)
The Dwarves protest Bilbo’s plans, yet have none of their own. This seems to characterise the Dwarves all through this adventure. They can talk the good talk, but their planning is non-existent. Do you agree?
Yes. As to whether it’s constructive, well, it’s not bad to question authority. Maybe someone will come up with a better plan. In this case, though, no one does; and the plan presented is better than the only apparent alternative.
Bilbo shows his kind heart by returning the keys to the guard, to "save him some of the trouble he is in for". He also muses over the puzzle it will set the elves too. Did you enjoy the set up of this puzzle for the elves and the quiet humour portrayed by Bilbo?
Yes, it was a kindly act, much in character. I enjoy imagining the Elves after the fact trying to piece together the puzzle.
After reading through this section, if you were Bilbo would you still want to help the Dwarves?
Yes.
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The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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squire
Gondolin
May 22 2009, 12:50am
Post #14 of 31
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In the good old days of walled cities, there would be one or several gates in the walls on the land side, the "North gate" or the "South gate" or the "Orleans gate" (Paris's Porte d'Orleans, opening onto the road to the southern town of Orleans). Since many cities were on a river or other water frontage, there might also be a "Water gate". The stout and high city walls would run along the waterfront, with piers and landings on the outside, but only one gate in the wall for entry from that side. And sometimes the water gate was even built in a canal that passed through the walls, so that the landings and piers could be in a protected artificial harbor complex within.
Here is Amersfoort in Belgium, with its land gate on the left (and bridge over the canal/moat), and the water gate on the right. Inside the headhouse is a giant treadmill, which people would walk in to lower the barrier down into the archway in time of attack.
The same concept applied to smaller fortifications, like a lord's castle if it was on a waterway. The main gate would face the road, and the water gate on some other side would allow entry directly from the river. This is the inspiration for the Elven-king's water gate, although I've never heard of an underground palace built over an underground stream. Such a palace would be extremely damp, in my opinion, although perhaps here the use of Elven magic for drainage and ventilation is implied.
Tolkien loves underground streams and uses them a lot more than I think is justified - probably because of their symbolic nature (the water of life flowing through the caverns of death, etc.)
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 22 2009, 3:17am
Post #15 of 31
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Not just Galion the butler got drunk enough to pass out, but the jailer as well. And the elves who came down to help apparently had been partying rather heavily before they arrived, so that one drink of the Dorwinion wine had an immediate and visible effect on them. When Galion derisively referred to them as "toss-pots" we may assume that he had in mind the older definition of "drunkards", given that the other, modern meaning would not be Tolkien's style and does not belong in a children's book. So that's a whole lot of tipsy elves, right there.
In the Silmarillion, those who repented involvement in Feanor's revolt said something about Feanor's words making them as drunk as with wine, and as soon sobered. I submit that this indicates knowlege of intoxication, which they could not have learned from observing dwarves, hobbits, or human beings, as they had not encountered any of these as yet.
Tolkien seems much more favorably disposed to intoxication, in his various writings, than Americans might understand (we're the ones, after all, who toyed with Prohibition.) While he wrote of numerous incidents involving good guys drinking in his stories (and some scenes hint mightily that these heroes might not have been fit to drive had Middle Earth known cars) the only instance that we know for sure of bad guys even possessing anything alcoholic is when an Uruk pours a burning beverage down Merry and Pippin's throats, strictly for medicinal purposes. Lotho, in fact, bans beer in the Shire and closes down the pubs. Bilbo does make a joking reference to an elvish lullaby being enough to wake a drunken goblin, but we never actually see any drunken goblins.
The only evidence for elves not getting tipsy is one scene in the expanded movie version of The Two Towers, and the script was careful to say that Legolas doubted that he could get drunk on "human beer". That's a pretty specific limit. It seems that the elvish wine of Dorwinion easily slips through a loophole as wide as a barn door.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 22 2009, 3:20am
Post #16 of 31
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Thank you for sharing that with us!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 22 2009, 3:30am
Post #17 of 31
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Building over an underground stream might not be damp, if there's rock between you and the stream. Such waterways usually do follow a fault in rock; if they passed through earth, they'd just dissipate into it.
Is there an underground stream in the Cheddar Caves? I know that Tolkien was very impressed by them, and used them for inspiration for the Glittering Caves of Aglarond.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Twit
Menegroth
May 22 2009, 8:41am
Post #19 of 31
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Is there an underground stream in the Cheddar Caves? I know that Tolkien was very impressed by them, and used them for inspiration for the Glittering Caves of Aglarond.
there used to be but only in part of it now, and there's also Wookey hole not too far away. I can't remember if either of them glitter in any way (other than perhaps the damp?).
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FarFromHome
Doriath
May 22 2009, 9:27am
Post #20 of 31
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I think Dreamdeer meant (and I hope she'll correct me if I'm wrong) that many casual viewers of the movies seem to assume that Elves don't get drunk, based on this one scene (a scene that's only in the Extended Edition, by the way!).
Even in the book, the Elves of LotR seem to be above actual drunkenness, but then we only really meet the highest-ranking, most sober (in all its senses) Elves in LotR. And even in The Hobbit, Tolkien specifies the difference between the high-ranking Elves and the lower orders in terms of holding their liquor: "this wine, it would seem, was the heady vintage of the great gardens of Dorwinion, not meant for his soldiers or his servants, but for the king’s feasts only."
So assuming Del Toro wants to film this sequence (and I hope he does) the "precedent" set by the EE scene in RotK holds no water - Legolas is the King's son, and anyway he's only drinking Men's ale in the "drinking game" at Meduseld.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 22 2009, 2:49pm
Post #21 of 31
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I was saying that the only "evidence" that elves don't get drunk is from the movies, and therefore is not actually evidence at all. Granted, some LotR-first readers also assumed this before the movies came out, and became quite shocked when they read "The Hobbit", but that is due to an American association of alcohol with vice.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 22 2009, 3:09pm
Post #22 of 31
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Thank you! Although I understand that the class difference among elves referred not to their ability to hold their liquor, but to the size of their drinking-vessels. The royalty drank from "smaller bowls", no doubt because the politics at the royal table required a clear head to negotiate. The working-class elves drank from "great flagons".
England differs from America in how the classes drink, as I understand it. In America, during prohibition, the wealthy came to flaunt their immunity from law enforcement by the invention of the cocktail party (the original purpose of cocktails being to disguise the flavor of bad liquor bought from moonshiners by mixing in flavorings) so that now alcohol-imbibing is much more a part of socialite culture than it is working-class culture. The working class here tends to drink milder beverages (mainly beer), frown upon those who drink by daylight (except that some subcultures do allow a beer with lunch) and are more likely to ascribe to religions that ban alcohol altogether. Then alcohol takes a second leap in acceptability among the underclass: outlaw culture that takes pride in flaunting the rules. Sometimes outside observers confuse the working-class with the underclass.
In contrast, the American upper classes have many ritual occasions to drink throughout the day, such as serving wine with meals (even, for special occasions, champagne breakfasts!) a regularly scheduled cocktail hour, aperitifs before dinner, nightcaps after dinner, etc. I read a journalist's notes, following a typical rich couple for a slice-of-life article, where he tallied up seven drinks in a single day, with no special occasion! And I remember getting to see orchestral performances, ballets, etc., by volunteering backstage, and when I'd step out into the lobby full of rich people, there'd be this overwhelming odor of alcohol intermixed with competing perfumes.
But I've heard that in England it's the other way around, that the wealthier drink less and the poorer drink more. So Tolkien might be reflecting this, in his "small cups" versus "great flagons".
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 22 2009, 3:10pm
Post #23 of 31
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Thank you for the information! Maybe the glittering was in Tolkien's abundant imagination.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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FarFromHome
Doriath
May 22 2009, 3:30pm
Post #24 of 31
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I don't think the differences sound too great...
[In reply to]
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... between the drinking habits in the US and the UK. In Britain too, working-class drinkers are more likely to stick to beer. But they may drink a fair bit of it during an evening at the pub! Although there was no prohibition in the UK, pub opening hours were strictly controlled for many years - I believe that started during WWI, when the powers that be wanted to be sure that the afternoon shift didn't turn up too loaded to do any work...
Although I understand that the class difference among elves referred not to their ability to hold their liquor, but to the size of their drinking-vessels.
I get the impression that there are two factors at work - the Dorwinion wine is "not meant for his soldiers or his servants ... and [it's meant] for smaller bowls...." The two factors are linked, though, I guess - the people that the wine is "meant" for know how to handle it, know to drink it with food, and by the glass, not by the pint!
Actually we see this same thing happen with Sam too - he can hold plenty of beer, but when he has wine at Faramir's table he's soon under the influence. I think you do tend to get drunk quicker on a drink you're not familiar with, partly no doubt because you don't realize how strong it is and so drink too much too fast.
So with the Elven butler and his friends, perhaps it's the combination of their unfamiliarity with wine, and the fact that they chug it like beer that causes the problem...
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on May 22 2009, 3:32pm)
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Curious
Gondolin
May 22 2009, 3:54pm
Post #25 of 31
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Yes, these are working-class elves.
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We don't meet working-class elves in LotR.
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