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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 16 2009, 3:47pm
Post #1 of 49
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Flies Spiders IX: Exit Thorin
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IX. Exit Thorin–Saturday, May 16, 2009
As we leave our heroes too sick and/or weary to set a guard, let alone do anything about poor Thorin, we join the dwarvish monarch in the clutches of the elven king of Mirkwood.
You have to hand it to Thorin. After Bilbo fell to a sleeping-spell when approaching the elves, Thorin would risk nobody but himself. And, sure enough, he fell under a spell.
(Feel free, if you prefer, to ignore the questions below and instead tell us what you think about this final passage, this whole chapter, and/or the interrelations of elves and dwarves.)
1. What might Thorin represent in Bilbo’s journey? Did it need to fall asleep, or was this a calamity, resulting perhaps from a bad choice?
2. Any speculation on the magic of the Mirkwood elves? Could Legolas have caused enemies to fall asleep at any time, or did he need special conditions? If he could, why didn’t he, and if he needed special conditions, what might those be? UUTs welcome.
We learn about the Wood-Elves (discussed earlier) and their underground palace.
4. Taking this description, and your own imagination, how might you see an elvish cavern-palace differing from the dwellings of dwarves, hobbits, orcs, trolls, and any other underground creatures that come to mind? Would you like to visit? Would you rather live there, or in the trees?
5. Fairies frequently dwell underground in folklore. (Bonus question: Can you give any examples?) As symbols, why might this be? What does it mean for Bilbo’s journey that Thorin has become imprisoned underground?
We learn now at last of the feud between dwarves and elves.
“In ancient days they {elves} had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bargained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay.” Later the narrator mentions that Thorin’s family had had nothing to do with this feud.
6. How does this square with the Silmarillion? Or does it? Are we talking about the incident in Doriath, or another incident involving Thranduil? Is Tolkien being coy about not letting on precisely that “The Elf-King” might refer to more than one person?
7. Earlier Tolkien says that if these elves have a fault, it’s mistrusting strangers. Now he says that if the Elf-King has a weakness, it’s for treasure (especially silver.) Just how many “iffy” faults and weaknesses are we talking about here? Just how flawed are these elves? And do you like them less or better for their imperfections?
8. If the dwarves and the elf-king in the story were a dream, what components might they represent in a person’s psyche, and how could one steal treasure from another? (Have I discussed dissociation before? If not, let me know and I’ll do so. Or explain it yourself, if you know already.) What might it mean that the old issue has cropped up now in Bilbo’s journey? What must Bilbo do to resolve it, fully or in part? Does it ever truly get resolved in “The Hobbit”, or do we have to wait for “The Lord of the Rings” to finish the job?
The elf-king now interrogates Thorin, but Thorin, knowing his greed, will only answer that he is starving. He says nothing but the truth, and when pressed with a question about more than he wants to tell, he shuts up rather than tell a lie. He does not want to reveal to the elf-king that his presence has anything whatsoever to do with treasure. For, of course, Thorin is greedy, too.
9. Does Thorin do the right thing, here? Or what is most sensible? Or should he lay all of his cards out on the table? What would you do in such a situation? Any comments on the legality of his situation?
Thranduil’s response is to provide the poor, starving dwarf with plenty of food, water, shelter, and rest...in a dungeon. “Until he tells the truth.”
10. Does Thranduil do the right thing? Or what is most sensible? Or should he let Thorin go? What would you do? Any comments on the legality of his position?
11. Any other thoughts on this final section?
12. Any thoughts on the chapter as a whole? Especially things that you wish I had not omitted.
(Pictures of cavern-palaces, tree-dwellings, and anything else that seems appropriate, to this section or this chapter, are warmly welcomed, so long as they stay within TORn guidelines.)
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
(This post was edited by Ataahua on May 17 2009, 11:55pm)
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 17 2009, 8:46pm
Post #2 of 49
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What does Thorin represent? A chance for Bilbo, Hobbit of the Shire, to show his quality! 
Seriously: the Elves were on their guard this time, determined to take a prisoner to find out what was going on. They managed to nab the most obstinate of the troop, and so found out about the others, who then were similarly "rescued" from certain death. Which put Bilbo on the spot to develop his "burglar" instincts, and so devise a plan of rescue.
Now, something to wonder about: had Thorin revealed to the wood-elves his reason for returning to the Lonely Mountain, would they have allowed him to travel further, knowing what damage a dragon can do when roused - or would they have forced him to accept their "assistance" in return for certain remuneration?
In the former scenario, they might have allowed the Dwarves more freedom of movement within their halls, but kept a constant guard on them; not good for creating an escape plan! In the latter, we would find a well-armed contingent of Elves travelling alongside the Dwarves; most likely the side door would have been forgotten, and they would have probably all become fricassee in the Mountain.
Rateliff does believe the the old argument referred to is indeed the incident of Tinwelint (later Thingol) and the Nauglafring (Nauglamir).
Thank you for leading us this week, Dreamdeer! This has been a lot of fun - with a lot of new insights!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Beren IV
Mithlond
May 17 2009, 9:13pm
Post #3 of 49
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I would expect that Thranduil would want to know more (e.g. about the side door), but I can't see him not letting the dwarves go eventually. I would expect him to tell Thorin that he needs a plan, and would want to know what the plan is before just releasing him. In that case, the elven guards would also have been able to use the side door.
The paleobotanist is back!
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batik
Dor-Lomin
May 18 2009, 3:01am
Post #4 of 49
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on Thorin and t he Elf-king...
[In reply to]
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Magic of Mirkwood Elves...I'm thinking maybe some special conditions were needed to cause others to fall asleep. It's a bit like why didn't Gandalf use more magic or even why didn't the Eagles take Frodo and Sam to Mount Doom, isn't it?
Treasure-stealing-dwarves!...I assumed this was referring to Thingol and the necklace. A year ago this would have went completely over my head.
Doing the right thing...
as dernwyn commented, a couple of outcomes might have resulted had Thorin come clean here. One would have possibly resulted in less leeway for Bilbo, the other would be against Gandalf's advice that a *small* company be involved in this venture. I suppose saying not much at this point does make more sense the blabbing out too much. Thorin did start thinking about his friends and maybe if too much time passed without word of them he may have asked for help...but that's for another time.
The Elf-king... I suppose the implication here is *no trespassing allowed* and one had better have a valid reason for being in Mirkwood. Thorin doesn't provide that. Is the Elf-King within his legal rights to detain Thorin? Maybe--if he's the guardian of the land then I suppose it's his duty to make sure that no one is there to wreak havoc within the borders.
Tolkien's working on two levels here. Makes me wonder if there is any connection to his war experience here--if you're caught you'll be questioned; if you catch someone, ask questions.
I do like that Tolkien provides the audience with some backstory/explanation with regards to the tension between the two cultures. And I especially enjoyed reading Thorin's way of answering the questions.
and I heard ya---
Elf-King
Xamines
Inflexible
Thorin
Too
Hungry!
Old-timer
Repeats--
Incarcerated,
Now. 
(This post was edited by batik on May 18 2009, 3:02am)
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Modtheow
Menegroth
May 18 2009, 3:11am
Post #5 of 49
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"Then the elves put thongs on him...."
Ok, it's true, I'll laugh at anything.
Attercop
Thanks, FarFromHome, for reporting on the word here.
Confusticate, as in "Hi! hobbit, confusticate you, where are you?"
I like the sound of the word, and it also makes sense to me without my ever having used the word before or looked it up. But that made me think that maybe I should look it up. Here is the Oxford English Dictionary entry, which turned out to be more interesting than I had expected.
Confusticate, v. colloq. Also confuscate. [Fantastic alteration of CONFOUND v. or CONFUSE v.] To confuse, confound, perplex. So con fusticated ppl. a. 1891 FARMER Slang, Confusticate verb (American), to confuse. 1898 WRIGHT Eng. Dial. Dict. s.v. confuscated, For wunse i' mi' l  ëf ahm reight confuscaäted. 1926 C. L. GRAVES Hubert Parry II. 113 He would at once begin to talk in schoolboy slang..interlarding his remarks with such words as ‘awfully’, ‘confusticated’. 1937 J. R. R. TOLKIEN Hobbit i. 21 Confusticate and bebother those dwarves!
It's fun to see that Tolkien's use of the word in the first chapter of The Hobbit is one of the quotations in the OED. Also that one of the other quotations is from Joseph Wright's English Dialect Dictionary -- Joseph Wright was one of Tolkien's professors at Oxford, and I would be pretty confident in guessing that Tolkien knew Wright's dictionary, since Tolkien did some work on English dialects himself. Did he learn the word from Wright, I wonder? The word is listed as American slang and as an English dialect word in the 1890s; I can see how that would happen, but I'm wondering about how it became schoolboy slang, according to quotation number 3? Can our resident linguists say whether this is a common process: schoolboy slang picking up dialect words? Also, I'm wondering what dialect "confusticate" is from and whether there are other instances of such a dialect in The Hobbit? Or maybe Tolkien expects his audience to think of it as schoolboy slang instead? It's also fun to see "awfully" cited as an unusual slang word in 1926.
Awfully interesting and confusticating questions!
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
May 18 2009, 3:48am
Post #6 of 49
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Re: Legolas and magic
I don't think he or any other Mirkwood elf could cast a sleeping spell on anyone outside of Mirkwood. I'm not sure that they could always do it inside of Mirkwood. It seems like a defense mechanism -- it only works on outsiders trying to approach them, not as a pre-emptive strike. They couldn't cast a sleeping spell on Gollum because he was trying to avoid them.
Re: Thorin's interrogation
I think Thorin did the right thing, and so did the elf-king. That part seems very realistic to me. Since both characters are strong-willed, it will take time or a change of circumstance to resolve the situation, as we will see in the next chapter.
Where's Frodo?
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batik
Dor-Lomin
May 18 2009, 4:17am
Post #7 of 49
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Forest
Looms--
Intimidating,
Enclosing,
Suffocating.
Anxiety
Needles
Dwarves.
Slow-
Paced
In
Darkness,
Everywhere
Reside--
Spiders!
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sador
Gondolin
May 18 2009, 6:34am
Post #8 of 49
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You have to hand it to Thorin. After Bilbo fell to a sleeping-spell when approaching the elves, Thorin would risk nobody but himself. And, sure enough, he fell under a spell.
Yes, of course.
1. What might Thorin represent in Bilbo’s journey?
Thorin gives Bilbo direction, a goal, and a set of standards what the heroic world is, and what he should become to be a part of it.
Bilbo has been struggling with both his unwillingness and his inability to become a part. In this chapter, he gets over the inability; only in 'A Thief at Night' he will come to terms with his unwillingness.
Did it need to fall asleep, or was this a calamity, resulting perhaps from a bad choice?
Both (if you believe in the Plan).
2. Any speculation on the magic of the Mirkwood elves? Could Legolas have caused enemies to fall asleep at any time, or did he need special conditions? If he could, why didn’t he, and if he needed special conditions, what might those be? UUTs welcome.
How do you think he won the infamous drinking-game? The poor dwarf is always cheated, and never realises it.
Anyway, I think it is a matter of conditions, of the elves and the land becoming as one over a long time.
4. Taking this description, and your own imagination, how might you see an elvish cavern-palace differing from the dwellings of dwarves, hobbits, orcs, trolls, and any other underground creatures that come to mind?
My visual imagination is not that great; I'll wait and see what GdT comes up with.
Would you like to visit?
As a guest? Why not?
As a prisoner? No thank you!
As an invisible burglar? Err... I need to think of this.
Would you rather live there, or in the trees?
Probably not in the trees.
5. Fairies frequently dwell underground in folklore. (Bonus question: Can you give any examples?) As symbols, why might this be?
Flight takes energy; and they have only so much energy to go around.
Actually, this is also true with flights of fancy, which require a suspension of disbelief, and a willingness to leave the comfortable world we know. That is also limited - so we usually tuck the fairies underground, out of sight and out of mind, untill the author suddenly needs them.
What does it mean for Bilbo’s journey that Thorin has become imprisoned underground?
Should I take it that you see Thorin as a fairy, which needs to be put out of sight and out of mind? I tend to disagree; it is just where prisoners usually are.
If you want to wonder about the symbolic meaning of outting prisoners underground, and consider it as a form of burial - this is possible. Do you want to imply that a part of Bilbo's journey was resurrecting Thorin?
6. How does this square with the Silmarillion? Or does it? Are we talking about the incident in Doriath, or another incident involving Thranduil?
I always assumed it meant the incident in Doriath.
Is Tolkien being coy about not letting on precisely that “The Elf-King” might refer to more than one person?
No, I see no reason to think so.
We know already there were several types of elves, Bombur's dreams mentioned 'a woodland king', and I think 'the Elf-king' and the Elvenking are clearly distinct.
7. Earlier Tolkien says that if these elves have a fault, it’s mistrusting strangers. Now he says that if the Elf-King has a weakness, it’s for treasure (especially silver.) Just how many “iffy” faults and weaknesses are we talking about here?
There is a difference beween the people and the ruler.
If the Lothlorien elves have a fault, it is mistrusting strangers.
If the Lady Galadriel has a fault, it is her ambition to overthrow Sauron and become Queen of Middle-Earth.
Just how flawed are these elves?
Pretty much.
And do you like them less or better for their imperfections?
The become more like humans. I think I like them better.
8. If the dwarves and the elf-king in the story were a dream, what components might they represent in a person’s psyche, and how could one steal treasure from another?
Now you sound like Tweedledee and Tweedledum, discussing the Red King and his dreams.
Perhaps you have something in mind, but I cannot even begin to speculate.
(Have I discussed dissociation before? If not, let me know and I’ll do so. Or explain it yourself, if you know already.)
I do not remember your discussing it.
What might it mean that the old issue has cropped up now in Bilbo’s journey?
Old issues always crop up in any journey.
What must Bilbo do to resolve it, fully or in part?
Break the elvish prison open, and then steal the treasure of the dwarves and give it to the elves.
In short, to betray both sides.
Does it ever truly get resolved in “The Hobbit”, or do we have to wait for “The Lord of the Rings” to finish the job?
Gloin's lashing out at Legolas implies it does not get truly resolved; and 'The Last Debate' implies it will only be resolved by both races fading away - the normal way of laying feuds to rest, see for instance Romeo and Juliet.
9. Does Thorin do the right thing, here?
No. He needs help, and is unwilling to pay for it.
Or what is most sensible?
When issues of honour are at stake, nobody is ever sensible.
Or should he lay all of his cards out on the table?
What cards? He hasn't got anything really - it was a harebrained scheme to begin with.
The Elvenking might think he is only going to rouse the dragon, or at the best do the rounds of Laketown being feted, until he slinks away to the Iron Hills (note that this is what Thorin told the Great Goblin - and it is the most sensible thing to do).
The only card he has got (for whatever it's worth), is the information about the side-door. And if the Elvenking knows enough astronomy to guess when Durin's Day is likely to be, he might deem it expedient to put Thorin out of the way and store the information for future use.
What would you do in such a situation?
Me? I'm a stay-at-home coward. I wouldn't be caught dead in such a situation!
Any comments on the legality of his situation?
A king sets the laws of his land.
10. Does Thranduil do the right thing?
In a way, yes - what else could he do? He might have asked politely what Thorin and Co. were doing in the forest, but once he didn't - should he set Thorin free to wander by himself? How can you aid someone who refuses to ask for it, and you have no idea what he needs?
Or what is most sensible?
Well, if not for Bilbo - Thorin would have broken down and told him all; so I suppose it was sensible.
Or should he let Thorin go?
Where?
What would you do?
Maybe ply Thorin with some bottles of Dorwinion, and see if that loosens his tongue.
Any comments on the legality of his position?
He is King. That sanctions his actions legally, although it does not guarantee their wisdom.
11. Any other thoughts on this final section?
One wonders if without this episode, Thorin would be more amenable to Bard's claims.
12. Any thoughts on the chapter as a whole? Especially things that you wish I had not omitted.
Minor characters! (everyone forgets them):
How does Dori feel being sidestepped for Fili? That when brute force was needed, he was there - but his skill is set aside in favour of Thorin's family? Is he a porter (as he asked Nori two chapters ago)?
Also, note that Dwalin is mentioned here twice - he brings up the rear in the enchanted river (going in the last crossing with Bombur), and is the first to notice Thorin is missing. Any thoughts on that?
Thanks, Dreamdeer, for an enchanted discussion!
"There's nothing in the feeling of weight in an idle toss-pot's arms." - Galion
(This post was edited by sador on May 18 2009, 6:37am)
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Twit
Menegroth
May 18 2009, 12:16pm
Post #9 of 49
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1. What might Thorin represent in Bilbo’s journey? Did it need to fall asleep, or was this a calamity, resulting perhaps from a bad choice?
Pride?
2. Any speculation on the magic of the Mirkwood elves? Could Legolas have caused enemies to fall asleep at any time, or did he need special conditions? If he could, why didn’t he, and if he needed special conditions, what might those be? UUTs welcome.
Perhaps they need to be in their element (the trees) Perhaps they need greater numbers of them. Perhaps they sprinkle water from the river around the edge of the circle.
4. Taking this description, and your own imagination, how might you see an elvish cavern-palace differing from the dwellings of dwarves, hobbits, orcs, trolls, and any other underground creatures that come to mind? Would you like to visit? Would you rather live there, or in the trees?
Quite grand and spacious with plenty of light.
5. Fairies frequently dwell underground in folklore. (Bonus question: Can you give any examples?) As symbols, why might this be? What does it mean for Bilbo’s journey that Thorin has become imprisoned underground?
7. Earlier Tolkien says that if these elves have a fault, it’s mistrusting strangers. Now he says that if the Elf-King has a weakness, it’s for treasure (especially silver.) Just how many “iffy” faults and weaknesses are we talking about here? Just how flawed are these elves? And do you like them less or better for their imperfections?
The Elves as a whole mistrust strangers, the Elf-King likes treasure.
9. Does Thorin do the right thing, here? Or what is most sensible? Or should he lay all of his cards out on the table? What would you do in such a situation? Any comments on the legality of his situation?
The two seem quite similar.
Why would a Dwarf tell an Elf anything? Plus he is greedy.
10. Does Thranduil do the right thing? Or what is most sensible? Or should he let Thorin go? What would you do? Any comments on the legality of his position?
Why should he let him go? I'm guessing he already knows that there are others out there. He does the right thing by 'looking after' Thorin. As King the Elf-King's word is law.
Thanks for the questions, it has been great.
'... no spider has ever liked being called Attercop, and Tomnoddy of course is insulting to anybody.'
(The Hobbit)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 18 2009, 4:21pm
Post #10 of 49
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Thanks especially for the spellorama--good one!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 18 2009, 4:27pm
Post #11 of 49
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And now I'm going to have nightmares about Thorin in a Las Vegas dance-hall, thank you very much!
That's even worse than when I expressed confusion about how Bilbo put his thumbs behind his braces while blowing smoke-rings; it seemed rather undignified, since I only knew of "braces" as wire restraints on teeth. Then a British friend explained that in her country, "braces" meant straps to hold up trousers. "Oh, suspenders!" I replied, only to learn that, in England, suspenders are garters--which put Bilbo in a far more undignified posture for blowing his smoke rings!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 18 2009, 4:29pm
Post #12 of 49
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Thanks--I hadn't thought of that.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 18 2009, 4:30pm
Post #13 of 49
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 18 2009, 4:42pm
Post #14 of 49
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Thanks for some thought-provoking answers!
As for Dwalin and Dori, I see Dwalin as supporting his more assertive brother Balin. Dori might well have cause to grumble, but might have second thoughts about doing so aloud, after what happened to Bombur.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 18 2009, 4:45pm
Post #15 of 49
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I like the image of the elves sprinkling enchanted water around their circles. Yet it seems to need some activating element of will, for when there are no elves there, the dwarves take refuge within such a clearing and...well, come to think of it, they sleep. But on purpose.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
May 19 2009, 12:34pm
Post #16 of 49
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Elven Magic, Interrogation, and Caves
[In reply to]
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2. Any speculation on the magic of the Mirkwood elves? Could Legolas have caused enemies to fall asleep at any time, or did he need special conditions? If he could, why didn’t he, and if he needed special conditions, what might those be? UUTs welcome.
The fact that walking into the circle seems to trigger the spell reminds me of Elrond’s control over the Bruinen. I imagine it takes some time to prepare, and the intruder must cooperate by walking just where you want him. As Legolas was on the move throughout LOTR, I guess he couldn’t do such a thing. Maybe he could only do this in Mirkwood, also.
4. Taking this description, and your own imagination, how might you see an elvish cavern-palace differing from the dwellings of dwarves, hobbits, orcs, trolls, and any other underground creatures that come to mind? Would you like to visit? Would you rather live there, or in the trees?
An Elvish cave would appear more elegant than those of any of the other races mentioned above (and probably smell better, too). I have no doubt it would be even more fascinating than ordinary caverns, and I love those. I’d rather live in a cave than in the trees. For one thing, I don’t like getting wet (except at shower-time).
5. Fairies frequently dwell underground in folklore. (Bonus question: Can you give any examples?)
Does Pratchett count as folklore? :o) Because I can’t help thinking of the Wee Free Men. Which he probably based on real folklore.
As symbols, why might this be?
Underground is a good hiding place. It’s also where many cultures put their dead so it has otherworldly connotations.
What does it mean for Bilbo’s journey that Thorin has become imprisoned underground?
It’s not open to the air so you can only get at him through a limited route (the front gate or the water gate).
6. How does this [account of the dispute between Elves and Dwarves] square with the Silmarillion? Or does it? Are we talking about the incident in Doriath, or another incident involving Thranduil? Is Tolkien being coy about not letting on precisely that “The Elf-King” might refer to more than one person?
Too bad there’s no one in Middle-earth who can reliably handle escrow. So much unpleasantness could have been avoided if only they had a good title company.
Until I read The Sil which didn’t come out until about three years after I read TH, I just figured Tolkien was writing about Thranduil. After that I decided it was Thingol because the similarities were too close to have happened to anyone else.
7. Earlier Tolkien says that if these elves have a fault, it’s mistrusting strangers. Now he says that if the Elf-King has a weakness, it’s for treasure (especially silver.) Just how many “iffy” faults and weaknesses are we talking about here? Just how flawed are these elves? And do you like them less or better for their imperfections?
Perhaps they mistrust strangers because they worry about their treasure.
What might it mean that the old issue has cropped up now in Bilbo’s journey?
It gives the Elves an excuse (no matter how lame) to imprison the Dwaves, and it gives Bilbo something to do (rescue them).
The elf-king now interrogates Thorin, but Thorin, knowing his greed, will only answer that he is starving. He says nothing but the truth, and when pressed with a question about more than he wants to tell, he shuts up rather than tell a lie. He does not want to reveal to the elf-king that his presence has anything whatsoever to do with treasure. For, of course, Thorin is greedy, too.
I have to echo what someone else asked in an earlier discussion. Is it greedy to protect what is yours (and that which you haven’t even gotten back from the first thief yet)?
9. Does Thorin do the right thing, here? Or what is most sensible?
Both.
What would you do in such a situation?
Let’s see. A gang of thugs takes me to their leader, and the leader is asking me a series of questions that will (unknown to him) lead to me giving him the combination to my safe full o' jools and gold bullion. (This is hypothetical, of course. :o) ) I’d probably shut up, too.
Thranduil’s response is to provide the poor, starving dwarf with plenty of food, water, shelter, and rest...in a dungeon. “Until he tells the truth.”
10. Does Thranduil do the right thing? Or what is most sensible?
No and no.
Or should he let Thorin go?
Yes.
What would you do?
I would’ve talked to the Dwarves at the campfire, then either fed them or told them to get lost.
(Pictures of cavern-palaces, tree-dwellings, and anything else that seems appropriate, to this section or this chapter, are warmly welcomed, so long as they stay within TORn guidelines.)
I wouldn't mind staying in this cave. It includes an indoor waterfall, big-screen TV, CD sound system, full kitchen, game room, great room, and three bedrooms, each with its own bath and bidet ("Elven water magic", as someone recently called it in SFTH):
http://www.ozarkcave.com/
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 19 2009, 6:44pm
Post #17 of 49
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Good point about the sleep-spell being location-bound. I hadn't thought of that, but it does make sense.
Pratchett does base his fantasy on folklore in the most traditional sense. In terms of finding symbols, anything that folk come up with is folklore. Symbols crop up spontaneously anywhere that people appeal to something other than strict linear thinking: comic books, advertisements, nursery rhymes, distortions of political image, tabloids, songs on the radio, television shows, etc.
The cave pics look fantastic! Thanks for sharing.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
May 19 2009, 7:15pm
Post #18 of 49
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1. What might Thorin represent in Bilbo’s journey?
Flawed authority.
Did it need to fall asleep, or was this a calamity, resulting perhaps from a bad choice?
In the end Bilbo needs to defy it, but the time is not yet ripe. As for now, he will begin subverting it.
2. Any speculation on the magic of the Mirkwood elves?
A bit mirky.
Could Legolas have caused enemies to fall asleep at any time, or did he need special conditions?
Fans objected to the super powers of Jackson’s Legolas already, so one can only imagine their red faced apoplexy at his Elven Ninja Sleeping Touch.
If he could, why didn’t he, and if he needed special conditions, what might those be? UUTs welcome.
I’d think it’s like how Elrond could make white horses in the Bruinen, but probably not in the Anduin, Bywater, or Silverlode. Or how Galadriel could change the seasons and weather in Lothlorien but probably not in Fangorn, Mirkwood, or the Old Forest. “The (Elf) King and the (Forest) Land are One.”
We learn about the Wood-Elves (discussed earlier) and their underground palace.
4. Taking this description, and your own imagination, how might you see an elvish cavern-palace differing from the dwellings of dwarves, hobbits, orcs, trolls, and any other underground creatures that come to mind?
It’s kind of hard to reconcile this with Legolas’ attitude:
"Strange are the ways of Men, Legolas! Here they have one of the marvels of the Northern World, and what do they say of it? Caves, they say! Caves! Holes to fly to in time of war, to store fodder in! My good Legolas, do you know that the caverns of Helm's Deep are vast and beautiful? There would be an endless pilgrimage of Dwarves, merely to gaze at them, if such things were known to be. Aye indeed, they would pay pure gold for a brief glance!"
"And I would give gold to be excused," said Legolas, "and double to be let out, if I strayed in!"
-The Two Towers
Would you like to visit?
I love visiting caves: Carlsbad Caverns, Cascade Caverns, Wonder Cave.
Would you rather live there, or in the trees?
I like treehouses too, like in Swiss Family Robinson.
So how about living in an underground tree?
5. Fairies frequently dwell underground in folklore. (Bonus question: Can you give any examples?)
The underground world of “St. Martin’s Land”, whence came The Green Children of Woolpit.
As symbols, why might this be?
The difference between Elrond’s Homely House, and the Elf King’s Unhomely House. (Or, as Freud put it, the difference between “das heimliche” and “das unheimliche”.)
What does it mean for Bilbo’s journey that Thorin has become imprisoned underground?
He must go underground, but where ordinarily living underground would be homely (heimliche) for a hobbit, the situation for Bilbo is definitely unhomely (unheimliche).
We learn now at last of the feud between dwarves and elves.
“In ancient days they {elves} had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bargained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay.” Later the narrator mentions that Thorin’s family had had nothing to do with this feud.
6. How does this square with the Silmarillion? Or does it? Are we talking about the incident in Doriath, …
That’s one.
…or another incident involving Thranduil?
That mithril shirt the Dwarves made for an Elfling princeling didn’t ever seem to get delivered, did it?
Is Tolkien being coy about not letting on precisely that “The Elf-King” might refer to more than one person?
He’s always a bit vague. For example, there’s “Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky” but Galadriel is an Elven-Queen. And the “Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone” are actually for the seven Dwarf-kings. So if Dwarf-lords are actually kings, are the Elf-lords Elrond and Glorfindel also Elf-Kings?
In the end I guess it boils down to Boromir’s argument, that if you have the power, you can name yourself king, which indeed Aragorn does despite the previous “final” ruling of the Council of Gondor.
7. Earlier Tolkien says that if these elves have a fault, it’s mistrusting strangers. Now he says that if the Elf-King has a weakness, it’s for treasure (especially silver.)
There’s also slaying kindred, making stupid oaths, dying of broken hearts, rebelling against the Valar, and irrevocably turning into irredeemable orcs with just a few pokes of the comfy chair.
Just how many “iffy” faults and weaknesses are we talking about here?
How much time do you have?
Just how flawed are these elves?
Not as flawed as the ones in the Rankin/Bass cartoon. They looked absolutely horrid.
And do you like them less or better for their imperfections?
A sweet disorder in the dress
Kindles in clothes a wantonness;
A lawn about the shoulders thrown
Into a fine distraction;
An erring lace, which here and there
Enthrals the crimson stomacher;
A cuff neglectful, and thereby
Ribbons to flow confusedly;
A winning wave, deserving note,
In the tempestuous petticoat;
A careless shoe-string, in whose tie
I see a wild civility;--
Do more bewitch me, than when art
Is too precise in every part.
-Robert Herrick
8. If the dwarves and the elf-king in the story were a dream, what components might they represent in a person’s psyche, and how could one steal treasure from another?
Id and Superego, Mutt and Jeff, Tom and Jerry, Laurel and Hardy, Popeye and Bluto, Shem and Shaun, Archy and Mehitabel.
Indeed, perhaps Del Toro will lighten the mood with a little Abbott and Costello “Who’s On First?” type routine during Thranduil’s interrogation of Thorin.
(Have I discussed dissociation before? If not, let me know and I’ll do so. Or explain it yourself, if you know already.) What might it mean that the old issue has cropped up now in Bilbo’s journey?
Issues between the Id and Superego are always popping up. The Ego is always kept busy resolving them.
What must Bilbo do to resolve it, fully or in part?
Beat them both with a baseball bat until they agree to sit down, hold hands, and sing Kumbaya.
(Like it’s gonna happen….)
Does it ever truly get resolved in “The Hobbit”,…
No. Thorin dies. With the id removed it’s kinda like a lobotomy. But Bromden, er, that is, Bilbo escapes.
…. or do we have to wait for “The Lord of the Rings” to finish the job?
It falls to Treebeard to negate the evil voice of Nurse Ratched, er, that is, Saruman, and bring hope and freedom to all the inmates, er, Free Peoples, of Middle-earth.
The elf-king now interrogates Thorin, but Thorin, knowing his greed, will only answer that he is starving. He says nothing but the truth, and when pressed with a question about more than he wants to tell, he shuts up rather than tell a lie. He does not want to reveal to the elf-king that his presence has anything whatsoever to do with treasure. For, of course, Thorin is greedy, too.
9. Does Thorin do the right thing, here?
In an interrogation it’s best to shut up rather than lie.
Or what is most sensible?
Another day and all the Dwarves would have probably starved and/or gotten eaten by spiders. Sensibly speaking, the Elves did indeed save the Dwarves’ lives, and ultimately their quest and their gold.
Or should he lay all of his cards out on the table?
He’s just acting naturally. Usually threats and coercion shuts up the interrogated like a clam despite what Dick Cheney says.
What would you do in such a situation?
Drop Gandalf’s name. And possibly also Elrond’s and Beorn’s.
Any comments on the legality of his situation?
The legal precept is “Rex non potest peccare”, or “The King can do no wrong”.
Unfortunately with a pair of kings we have a case of an immovable object meeting an irresistible force.
The collision is not going to be pretty.
Thranduil’s response is to provide the poor, starving dwarf with plenty of food, water, shelter, and rest...in a dungeon. “Until he tells the truth.”
10. Does Thranduil do the right thing?
It didn’t work, did it?
Or what is most sensible?
Nope.
Or should he let Thorin go?
That’d probably work. Kick him out without any food and let him back in only if he offered to spill the beans.
What would you do?
I’d treat him as an honored guest, feed him, clothe him, build a relationship of trust, but not let him out of his gilded cage until he told the truth.
Basically standard non-Republican interrogation techniques which tend to work in the vast majority of cases.
(Sorry fans of Jack Bauer.)
Any comments on the legality of his position?
It’s kind of like Gandalf in the court of Meduseld, or in the court of Minas Tirith. Unless you’re prepared to give the ruler a good whacking, you pretty much have to do as they decree.
11. Any other thoughts on this final section?
Nice.
12. Any thoughts on the chapter as a whole? Especially things that you wish I had not omitted.
Love the songs.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 19 2009, 7:58pm
Post #19 of 49
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Aha! So somebody else knows about the Green Children!
Nice point about the mithril shirt.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
May 19 2009, 9:08pm
Post #20 of 49
(2367 views)
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1. What might Thorin represent in Bilbo’s journey?
Authority.
Did it need to fall asleep, or was this a calamity, resulting perhaps from a bad choice?
Thorin needed to be out of the picture in order for Bilbo to truly take charge, not just because the other dwarves saw Thorin as their leader, but also because Bilbo has an unfortunate tendency to defer to Thorin, usually with disastrous results. Eventually Bilbo will learn to defy Thorin, which is the final step in his growth process.
2. Any speculation on the magic of the Mirkwood elves? Could Legolas have caused enemies to fall asleep at any time, or did he need special conditions? If he could, why didn’t he, and if he needed special conditions, what might those be? UUTs welcome.
It's hard to compare the magic of The Hobbit to the magic of LotR. However, Frodo nearly fell asleep in Elrond's Hall of Fire, very possibly due to the Elvish Art of Enchantment. Lothlorien is filled with such magic. Haldir and his companions may use such magic to entrap the intruder orcs. It does tend to be specific to place, and defensive in nature. In The Hobbit, the elves do not enchant their enemies in the Battle of Five Armies.
So no, I don't think Legolas could enchant enemies on unfamiliar ground the way he and his fellow elves could at home. But perhaps if he had a few of his fellow elves with him, and a woods in which to operate, they could have improvised an enchantment for some orcs. For example, Elrond, Galadriel, and the other High Elves paraded through the Shire at the end of LotR without anyone seeing them except for Frodo and Sam, who were joining them, and various animals. That seems to have been some kind of enchantment.
Legolas might have enchanted the horse Eomer gave him. It depends on how you define magic.
4. Taking this description, and your own imagination, how might you see an elvish cavern-palace differing from the dwellings of dwarves, hobbits, orcs, trolls, and any other underground creatures that come to mind? Would you like to visit? Would you rather live there, or in the trees?
As someone recently reminded me, the Wood-elves do also live in the trees, or underneath the trees. The underground dwelling is a refuge and a fortress. But it is also relatively light and airy, and not so deep, at least in the upper halls, as opposed to the dungeons. I'm sure it was filled with artwork, too. I would like to visit, but I would probably prefer to live in the trees, if it weren't for the spiders and other enemies.
5. Fairies frequently dwell underground in folklore. (Bonus question: Can you give any examples?)
No, I was unaware of that.
As symbols, why might this be?
This is where I have trouble with symbols. I don't like to generalize. I'm much more comfortable analyzing the potential symbols in a single work, such as The Hobbit, rather than generalizing to all fairy tales.
What does it mean for Bilbo’s journey that Thorin has become imprisoned underground?
Bilbo must take charge whether he wants to or not.
6. How does this square with the Silmarillion? Or does it? Are we talking about the incident in Doriath, or another incident involving Thranduil? Is Tolkien being coy about not letting on precisely that “The Elf-King” might refer to more than one person?
I don't think Tolkien is being coy. There's nothing to be coy about, since The Silmarillion is not published or, in Tolkien's mind, likely to be published. Rather, I think Tolkien is borrowing from The Silmarillion. He did this already by introducing Gondolin and Elrond and Mirkwood, and in The Hobbit he isn't too concerned with incorporating The Silmarillion wholesale, or worrying about potential contradictions or variations. He will soon do so with the Arkenstone as well, which is quite similar to the Silmarils themselves, although not a Silmaril.
7. Earlier Tolkien says that if these elves have a fault, it’s mistrusting strangers. Now he says that if the Elf-King has a weakness, it’s for treasure (especially silver.) Just how many “iffy” faults and weaknesses are we talking about here? Just how flawed are these elves? And do you like them less or better for their imperfections?
Tolkien has a tricky task here, assuring us that the elves are Good People even as they trap and imprison the dwarves and eventually almost go to war with them. Also, they must be tricked by Bilbo, so they can't all be superhuman. But there is precedent in The Silmarillion, where the elves have their flaws, and the lesser elves have more flaws.
It is LotR which gives us a warped view of the elves, since we only meet the best of the best at a time when they have long since learned their lessons. Again, Celeborn is the one elf we meet in LotR who resembles the Elvenking in The Hobbit -- and Legolas too, at first, when he and Gimli quarrel. The theme of LotR is that rivals overcome their differences to defeat a common enemy, but in the long history of Middle-earth, that episode is the exception to the rule.
I don't particularly like the wood-elves in The Hobbit because we never get properly introduced. We don't even learn the Elvenking's name! We don't get close enough to them to like them. Instead we are assured by the narrator that we would like them in different circumstances.
8. If the dwarves and the elf-king in the story were a dream, what components might they represent in a person’s psyche, and how could one steal treasure from another? (Have I discussed dissociation before? If not, let me know and I’ll do so. Or explain it yourself, if you know already.) What might it mean that the old issue has cropped up now in Bilbo’s journey? What must Bilbo do to resolve it, fully or in part? Does it ever truly get resolved in “The Hobbit”, or do we have to wait for “The Lord of the Rings” to finish the job?
In some ways the elves and dwarves in The Hobbit are quite similar. They both lust for treasure and they both are suspicious of strangers, and especially of each other. But the dwarves seem to be all about work, while the elves are all about play. The dwarves think the elves are silly while the elves think the dwarves are dull. In the psyche, this might represent the conflict betweent he dull, responsible side of the brain and the creative, irresponsible side. The dull side accumulates treasure and the irresponsible side wants to spend it -- which the dull side might see as stealing.
9. Does Thorin do the right thing, here?
No, Thorin is not as adept at diplomacy as Gandalf, who wooed the equally-suspicious Beorn by telling him most of the tale, while leaving some parts out until he was sure he could trust him.
Or what is most sensible? Or should he lay all of his cards out on the table? What would you do in such a situation?
Be as straightforward as you can, and where you can't be straightforward, speak in riddles and ambiguities and equivocations rather than flat-out refusals to answer. It's an art form we also see in LotR, as for example when Faramir interrogates Frodo, or when Eomer interrogates Aragorn.
Any comments on the legality of his situation?
No law applies, as far as we know.
10. Does Thranduil do the right thing? Or what is most sensible? Or should he let Thorin go? What would you do?
No. He, too, is bad at diplomacy. Faramir shows how to successfully pry information from a stranger who is not necessarily an enemy. So does Galadriel. It takes a combination of friendliness and sternness, along with assurances of sincerity.
Any comments on the legality of his position?
No law applies, as far as we know.
11. Any other thoughts on this final section?
I doubt that the Elvenking would have let the dwarves disturb Smaug if he had figured out their plan -- and he might have had some idea of what dwarves would be doing in the neighborhood. The Elvenking seems too prudent to go after Smaug, otherwise why wouldn't he have done so himself before now? And the Elves, unlike the men of Lake-town and most of the dwarves, still remember Smaug. On the other hand, if the Elvenking could have been convinced to join the venture, he could have been a valuable ally.
I wonder who gets placed in these dungeons when dwarves aren't around. Outlaw elves? Trespassing humans? Note that Aragorn had to take Gollum all the way from the Dead Marshes to the Elvenking's dungeons to find a place to keep him prisoner -- apparently Lothlorien has no dungeons.
12. Any thoughts on the chapter as a whole? Especially things that you wish I had not omitted.
Not at this time.
(This post was edited by Curious on May 19 2009, 9:13pm)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 20 2009, 2:53am
Post #21 of 49
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You gave me something to think about
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I wasn't sure what the dwarves and elves might represent in how they dealt with each other; I put the question down as I would for a dream that I hadn't yet fathomed. What you say makes sense.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
May 20 2009, 4:46am
Post #22 of 49
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How did the Elvenking accumulate treasure?
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In The Silmarillion, Thingol accumulated treasure from Cirdan in the form of pearls of great worth, which the dwarves valued and could not mine. Cirdan apparently gave them to Thingol without demanding anything in return. But that isn't the case with the Elvenking, so what do the Wood-Elves produce that is valuable in trade?
Note, by the way, that they send what should be empty barrels back down the river. Why empty barrels? Don't they have anything to export? If not, how do they pay for what they import? And apparently they import a great deal. Tolkien doesn't really explain.
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sador
Gondolin
May 20 2009, 6:40am
Post #23 of 49
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Legolas might have enchanted the horse Eomer gave him. It depends on how you define magic.
Do you mean in general, riding him without but or bridle - or specifically in Dimholt, when entering the Paths of the Dead?
And do you think the 'bond of love' which made the Dunedain's horses follow their masters was just that, or enchanted too? Could that explain why Aragorn took Roheryn rather than Hasufel with him, or was it the natural thing to discard Garulf's horse for Arwen's?
I don't particularly like the wood-elves in The Hobbit because we never get properly introduced. We don't even learn the Elvenking's name! We don't get close enough to them to like them. Instead we are assured by the narrator that we would like them in different circumstances.
You don't seem to like Thorin too much, either, although you know him well enough!
But what you say is very interesting. I note that Bard is given a name but the Master of Lake-town is not, and neither is the Lord of the Eagles. Don't you like the Lord of the Eagles? Bard is obviously more likeable than the Master, but is Roac more likeable than the thrush?
Also Gollum - Tolkien tells us it's a name, or a nickname in 'Riddles in the Dark', but does not tell us who and what he is (quite like Beorn, in a way) - does that help you warm up to him?
What's in a name that makes us warm up to a person, rather than learning of him? We are assured that the Elvenking is a good person, and we see that towards the end of 'Fire and Water' - arguably, turning out of the way to Esgaroth is the kindliest and least self-serving thing anyone ever did in The Hobbit. On the other hand, Beorn is described as being appaling when angry, and we are never sure just how trustworthy he is - we do not even know what kind of being he is! But I agree that most readers will like Beorn, while those who like the Elvenking will probably be projecting their liking for his son in the next book (this might even be my case - who knows the paths of the subconcious?).
Does a nickname help? Would people like my as David better than as sador, or less? Or doesn't it make any difference - as long as you have a name to tag somebody with? If so, why should it be different than a title - because the title is impersonal?
The dwarves seem to be all about work, while the elves are all about play. The dwarves think the elves are silly while the elves think the dwarves are dull. In the psyche, this might represent the conflict betweent he dull, responsible side of the brain and the creative, irresponsible side. The dull side accumulates treasure and the irresponsible side wants to spend it -- which the dull side might see as stealing.
I Don't think this is exactly in line with your answers to your answers on questions D-H in squire's discussion, about the dwarves making beautiful things for the sheer pleasure of it, and not working to supply their own needs. Would you like to revisit the subject?
And not specifically to you, just because I forgot to mention this before:
11. Any other thoughts on this final section?
The elves took Orcrist, and all the dwarves weapons. How did they miss Thrain's Map? The Key?
If they were so eager for information, couldn't they have searched Thorin more thoroughly?
Or wasn't he really considering the dwarves as enemies, and was more concerned with matters of honour - like being the one asked for help? Truning Thorin out, like GaladrielTX suggested, would probably be fatal to Thorin and Co. - give them food, and put them anywhere out of your territory in Mirkwood, and let them fend for themselves!
"There's nothing in the feeling of weight in an idle toss-pot's arms." - Galion
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FarFromHome
Doriath
May 20 2009, 8:30am
Post #24 of 49
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Any speculation on the magic of the Mirkwood elves? Could Legolas have caused enemies to fall asleep at any time, or did he need special conditions? If he could, why didn’t he, and if he needed special conditions, what might those be? UUTs welcome.
Falling asleep seems to be the result of a kind of spell or enchantment that Elves can weave under certain conditions - within their own kingdoms, for example, and with subjects who are receptive to the spell. The Dwarves in their fearful, hungry state are susceptible, but I'm not sure unimaginative, blood-focused orcs ever would be. It's a bit like being susceptible to imagining things in the dark, or sensing unseen things around you - if you're tired, or afraid, or full of a sense of wonder, the Elven spell is more likely to affect you.
Fairies frequently dwell underground in folklore. (Bonus question: Can you give any examples?) As symbols, why might this be? What does it mean for Bilbo’s journey that Thorin has become imprisoned underground?
Well, in Irish Celtic mythology, the fairies (i.e. the remnants of the great supernatural race most of whom passed over the western sea) live in the green mounds that are in fact the burial chambers of a prehistoric race. Not only do the entrances remind me of the Elven-King's hall, but the green mounds themselves remind me of burial places such as Cerin Amroth.
Earlier Tolkien says that if these elves have a fault, it’s mistrusting strangers. Now he says that if the Elf-King has a weakness, it’s for treasure (especially silver.) Just how many “iffy” faults and weaknesses are we talking about here? Just how flawed are these elves? And do you like them less or better for their imperfections?
I see this as a result of the point of view of the story - and especially, of the way the Elf-King appears to the Dwarves. Not even the Elves of LotR are perfect - there are little hints of darkness behind their angelic natures, but that story is told through the eyes of hobbits (and later, Gondorian historians) who were entirely won over by the Elves. This story is told from the point of view of Bilbo and his Dwarf companions, and they gain a quite different view of Elvish nature (although, of course, these are "lesser" Elves than the great ones we mostly meet in LotR). I do like to see the imperfections of the Elves, because they are more believable as representatives of an aspect of human nature that way. But I see subtle hints of imperfections in the Elves of LotR, which works for me too.
Does Thorin do the right thing, here? Or what is most sensible? Or should he lay all of his cards out on the table? What would you do in such a situation? Any comments on the legality of his situation?
Does Thranduil do the right thing? Or what is most sensible? Or should he let Thorin go? What would you do? Any comments on the legality of his position?
We're talking geopolitics here. Two peoples with a longstanding distrust of each other, based on historical grudges and mutual misunderstandings. Hostage situations easily arise. They are not necessarily right or wrong, but the result of human (or Dwarvish, or Elvish) nature. Some administrations would opt for the hard line and the show of force, and others for rapprochement. Personally I prefer to see constructive solutions that address the misunderstandings (that seems to be what Gandalf is working towards, too, and with Gimli and Legolas, at least, we see it happen).
Any thoughts on the chapter as a whole? Especially things that you wish I had not omitted.
You brought a wealth of stimulating ideas to the discussion, and I can't think of anything I wish you had not omitted. I'm sorry I didn't have more time to contribute, but I've very much enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts. Thanks for a doing such a great job with this chapter!
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Curious
Gondolin
May 20 2009, 11:33am
Post #25 of 49
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In Reply To
Legolas might have enchanted the horse Eomer gave him. It depends on how you define magic.
Do you mean in general, riding him without but or bridle - or specifically in Dimholt, when entering the Paths of the Dead?
Yes, although I'll admit I'm stretching to find examples of Legolas enchanting someone.
And do you think the 'bond of love' which made the Dunedain's horses follow their masters was just that, or enchanted too?
No, that would be different. The Rangers -- with the possible exception of Aragorn -- should not have elvish powers of enchantment. Instead they had a lifetime with these horses.
Could that explain why Aragorn took Roheryn rather than Hasufel with him, or was it the natural thing to discard Garulf's horse for Arwen's?
Both answers are plausible.
I note that Bard is given a name but the Master of Lake-town is not, and neither is the Lord of the Eagles. Don't you like the Lord of the Eagles?
I'm grateful to the Lord of the Eagles, but we don't really get to know him.
Bard is obviously more likeable than the Master, but is Roac more likeable than the thrush?
Again, I'm grateful to the thrush, but we don't really get to know him.
Also Gollum - Tolkien tells us it's a name, or a nickname in 'Riddles in the Dark', but does not tell us who and what he is (quite like Beorn, in a way) - does that help you warm up to him?
We do get to know Gollum, and perhaps even pity the creature as Bilbo did. Gollum has far more personality than the Lord of the Eagles or the thrush. But it's a creepy personality, so I wouldn't go so far as to say I like him.
What's in a name that makes us warm up to a person, rather than learning of him?
It's hard to warm up to someone we don't know, but that doesn't necessarily mean we will warm up to someone who has been introduced, like Smaug. Still, Smaug has more personality than the Elvenking, the Lord of the Eagles, or the thrush.
We are assured that the Elvenking is a good person, and we see that towards the end of 'Fire and Water' - arguably, turning out of the way to Esgaroth is the kindliest and least self-serving thing anyone ever did in The Hobbit. On the other hand, Beorn is described as being appaling when angry, and we are never sure just how trustworthy he is - we do not even know what kind of being he is! But I agree that most readers will like Beorn, while those who like the Elvenking will probably be projecting their liking for his son in the next book (this might even be my case - who knows the paths of the subconcious?).
Again, we don't get to know the Elvenking. And without knowing him we have to take the narrator's word for it that he is a Good Person. Indeed, the very fact that the narrator must tell us that is a sign that the Elvenking's goodness does not leap off the page.
Does a nickname help? Would people like my as David better than as sador, or less? Or doesn't it make any difference - as long as you have a name to tag somebody with?
If we never got to know Bilbo's first name, if he were Mr. Baggins throughout, that might create a sense of distance.
If so, why should it be different than a title - because the title is impersonal?
Precisely. But it's not just about the title. The fact that we never learn the Elvenking's name is evidence that we don't get to know other things about him either.
The dwarves seem to be all about work, while the elves are all about play. The dwarves think the elves are silly while the elves think the dwarves are dull. In the psyche, this might represent the conflict betweent he dull, responsible side of the brain and the creative, irresponsible side. The dull side accumulates treasure and the irresponsible side wants to spend it -- which the dull side might see as stealing.
I Don't think this is exactly in line with your answers to your answers on questions D-H in squire's discussion, about the dwarves making beautiful things for the sheer pleasure of it, and not working to supply their own needs. Would you like to revisit the subject?
Actually, I think it is consistent. Tolkien mentions the dwarves making toys to show that they are not all about utilitarian work, but even their pleasure involves making something. We never learn whether the elves are productive; we only hear about their leisure activities.
The elves took Orcrist, and all the dwarves weapons. How did they miss Thrain's Map? The Key? If they were so eager for information, couldn't they have searched Thorin more thoroughly?
Good question! Perhaps the elves were not used to being interrogators and jailers, or perhaps Tolkien glosses over this point.
Or wasn't he really considering the dwarves as enemies, and was more concerned with matters of honour - like being the one asked for help?
That's another plausible explanation.
Or how about this. I suspect that the Elvenking was quite aware of who Thorin was and what would bring him to the neighborhood, and did not need the map to prove it. But perhaps the Elvenking was not enthused about rousing Smaug, and would have prevented the dwarves from doing so if they had revealed their mission. So the map and key were irrelevant.
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