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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 15 2009, 5:21pm
Post #1 of 27
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Flies & Spiders VIII: Bilbo the Hero
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VIII. Bilbo the Hero. Friday, May 15, 2009
(Feel free to ignore any questions below and say whatever you want instead about Bilbo’s heroics.)
Bilbo races back to rescue his friends, climbing one of the enemy’s ropes, even though its stickiness hurts his hands.
1. What might it mean, symbolically, to use evil’s own rope against it? What might its painful stickiness mean? Consider in your answer Bilbo’s drive to climb the rope anyway.
Thinking the coast clear, he runs into an “old slow wicked fat-bodied spider” (How Tolkien got past an editor with that phrase sans commas, I’ll never know!) who stayed behind to guard the prisoner (and incidently get a head start on the feasting.) By now, though, Bilbo’s got so much momentum going for him that he dispatches it in a flash.
2. After we think that we’ve finally evaded all of the most obvious obstacles, within ourselves or not, there always seems to be one left! What is this last spider, symbolically speaking?
Now comes the business of retrieving dwarves. Often, after we get rid of what we don’t want in our lives or in ourselves, we find that we haven’t finished the job–we now have to retrieve whatever desirable things those problems bound up or dispatched. Medicine-people (and shamans all over the world) call this soul-retrieval, while modern psychologists prefer the term “reintegrating dissociated elements of the personality”.
As Bilbo retrieves the dwarves, he finds them shaky, weak, sick and poisoned, suffocated, and bruised by the pinching of the spiders. At the same time, they’re ludicrous enough in their debility to make Bilbo laugh despite himself. However, the more dwarves he frees, the more helpers he has at the task, as they slowly regain some strength.
3. What parallels might you see to regaining lost parts of a person who has long labored under troubles, errors, fears, or other obstacles, within or not? You may use hypothetical examples and/or change names.
4. Story-wise, what must it mean to Bilbo to be the hero, the strongest and cleverest of the lot? How would you rank this turning-point, among all the turning-points in the book? (Consider, among other things, that he has done all of this after going without food longer than he did in the Misty Mountains, when he became too weak to cook the food that the Eagles provided.)
5. To what extent do you think Bilbo owes this victory to the Ring? Do you think he could have managed without it?
6. Within the Tolkienverse, what effect might the Ring have on Bilbo by his use of it to wax in power? What effect might it have on the dwarves? When Tolkien went back and rewrote “The Hobbit”, knowing what the Ring would turn out to be, do you think he kept this in mind?
Halfway through dwarf-reclaiming, the spiders return. Bilbo fends them off from the laboring dwarves without his ring on. When he sees Bombur recaptured, he drops down all by himself to the rescue. When he finally does call down the rest of the dwarves, it’s because he sees more spiders after them. Finally, the dwarves start to do battle beside him as well, with whatever sticks and stones come to hand, although still very weak and shaky.
7. Do you think Bilbo inspired them? Encouraged them? Or did they simply see that their lives depended on all fighting together.
8. Does this make Bilbo their captain, in the absence of Thorin (which we will get to, soon)? Is this the Ring’s doing, or Bilbo coming into his own, or a combination?
At last the situation turns so desperate that our exhausted little hobbit puts on the Ring in front of everybody. He could have done so to escape a losing battle, but instead runs off to lure the spiders away again. Balin catches on faster than the rest, and leads a charge on the spiders that breaks them out...for a little while. They really are too sick from poison to run very far, and though they fight with as much valor as they can, under the circumstances, Bilbo reappears sans ring in their midst to save them yet again. He shouts at the dwarves to run while he manages the rear-guard all by himself! Just when exhaustion nearly defeats him, morale among the spiders drops sufficiently that they turn away (presumably to look for easier prey. Those dwarves were pretty tough, anyway. And grapes out of reach are always sour.)
9. What would the original Bilbo, fresh out of Bag End, have done? What specifically has made him who he is now?
10. What comes to mind with Balin taking charge?
11. Any symbolic meaning come to mind with this turn of events?
Finally, the dwarves find themselves within an elven clearing, where they can rest and recuperate. They grill Bilbo about the Ring (especially Balin) but they also suddenly and completely defer to him, expecting him to come up with all of the answers
12. Why do you think Balin might be more interested in the Ring than the rest? Does anyone know if this was in the original version?
13. Do you find the complete about-turn of the dwarves in their attitude towards Bilbo strange, or understandable? Does Bilbo have it coming, or is the Ring working on the dwarves, or might it be a combination of both?
14. Any further ideas? Pictures? Questions you would like to discuss? Observations to make?
And then they discover that Thorin is not in their midst...
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
May 16 2009, 1:37am
Post #2 of 27
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13. Do you find the complete about-turn of the dwarves in their attitude towards Bilbo strange, or understandable? Does Bilbo have it coming, or is the Ring working on the dwarves, or might it be a combination of both?
I'm not sure it has anything at all to do with the ring.
The Dwarves (and Bilbo) found themselves in a similar situation when they were captured by (Bilbo's) Trolls. At that time they were bound, sacked, or otherwise immobilized (seems to happen a lot in this tale) just as they were now. The primary difference is that last time Gandalf saved them; this time it was Bilbo.
This would place Bilbo (yes, owing in part to the assurances that Gandalf gave to them about Bilbo) in the same league as Gandalf.
Of course Bilbo was no Wizard -- being lucky seems to be the one attribute the dwarves attributed to Bilbo -- but then, given his rescuing them from a similar bind (pun intended) as they were in with the Trolls, made Bilbo, at least in their mind (and without Thorin there to downplay the effort or grumble -- strange it is some time before they realize he is gone) the next best thing to having Gandalf around.
Will have to ponder the other questions more, before attempting a reply.
Thanks Dreamdeer
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on May 16 2009, 1:38am)
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batik
Dor-Lomin
May 16 2009, 1:39am
Post #3 of 27
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How would you rank this turning-point, among all the turning-points in the book? (Consider, among other things, that he has done all of this after going without food longer than he did in the Misty Mountains, when he became too weak to cook the food that the Eagles provided.)
Up to this point in the story, pretty high. This seems to be the first time Bilbo has acted more than reacted and has to come up with a plan and go with it.
5. To what extent do you think Bilbo owes this victory to the Ring? Do you think he could have managed without it?
Probably quite a bit. Even though Bilbo is skilled in moving quietly, what are the odds that he would have outmanuvered the spiders if he had been visible?
6. Within the Tolkienverse, what effect might the Ring have on Bilbo by his use of it to wax in power? What effect might it have on the dwarves? When Tolkien went back and rewrote “The Hobbit”, knowing what the Ring would turn out to be, do you think he kept this in mind?
(sort of a time-travel question  ) I do wonder if I would have considered the ring, at all, if not for having some LOTR knowledge of it. What would readers of TH, only, think about the ring--that it can make the wearer invisible? That Gollum had it and lost it? I'd like TH to be TH. That being said--after re-reading this section of the chapter, especially Bilbo's ferocity when "...the battle began.", does make me wonder ...
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 16 2009, 2:25am
Post #4 of 27
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Well, Bilbo does now wield the magical power to vanish at will, so I guess he'll do till a real wizard comes along.
And you're welcome!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 16 2009, 3:56pm
Post #5 of 27
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Of spider-web-string, that is! This section of the story was subject to the greatest change in narrative between the manuscript and the typscript.
Originally, when Bilbo awoke after slaying his first Spider, he did not name his blade. Instead, he found that the Spider had spun out a great deal of thread during their battle, which he collected into a large ball.
Then, since Hobbits are "clever in woods", he re-found the path. After waiting a long time and realizing no one else was coming, he headed back into the woods to find the Dwarves, but not before securing one end of the web-thread to a tree "close by the track". He returned to where the dead Spider lay, and set out in the direction from which he had last heard the Dwarves.
Then came the ensuing battle and freeing of the Dwarves, after which, with an angry mob of Spiders after them, they follow Bilbo's web-string back to the path. "Only one or two followed them to the very edge of the path, and sat fuming and cursing at them from branches in the trees." Definitely some magic keeping the evil things at bay! It was then that they discovered Gandalf Thorin was missing. (At this point, Gandalf was the name of the leader of the Dwarves; the wizard was callled Bladorthin.)
And so it was, that the Wood-elves caught the group as they staggered along the path, trying to reach its end before their own ends came.
What do you think: should Tolkien have kept this plot-line? Do you like the name "Bladorthin" for a wizard?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 16 2009, 4:32pm
Post #6 of 27
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I prefer the ending that he settled on. But thank you for showing us his alternate thinking!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
May 17 2009, 9:14am
Post #7 of 27
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I must admit that I do find it a little odd that Bilbo who to this point has been rather shy and cowardly suddenly becomes a heroic spider-killer! I wonder if he always had this ability or if most of the people in Middle-Earth had they had a sharp Elvish sword and an invisible ring could have fought as well as Bilbo?
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FarFromHome
Doriath
May 17 2009, 9:54am
Post #8 of 27
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(At this point, Gandalf was the name of the leader of the Dwarves; the wizard was callled Bladorthin.)
How odd that sounds! I assume Tolkien had already worked out the etymology Gandalf = wand elf. So I wonder why he would have chosen the name for a dwarf?
As for the spider-thread that lets the company find their way back to the path, it's a nice idea but perhaps a bit too obviously linked to other familiar stories, especially the myth of Theseus using Ariadne's thread to find his way out of the Labyrinth (Ariadne is even connected with spiders), and the tale of Hansel and Gretel (a different kind of trail, but this one is set in a deep, dark, magical forest not entirely unlike Mirkwood).
"Only one or two followed them to the very edge of the path, and sat fuming and cursing at them from branches in the trees." Definitely some magic keeping the evil things at bay!
So in this version, the Elves are protecting the path with their magic? I haven't noticed this in the version we're reading, except for the cryptic comment at the start of the chapter, where the company see "dark dense cobwebs with threads extraordinarily thick, often stretched from tree to tree, or tangled in the lower branches on either side of them. There were none stretched across the path, but whether because some magic kept it clear, or for what other reason they could not guess."
Is this an example of an element surviving from an earlier conception of the story, like Strider's reluctance to enter Moria (based on the backstory of Trotter, the character he replaced)?
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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sador
Gondolin
May 17 2009, 2:46pm
Post #9 of 27
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1. What might it mean, symbolically, to use evil’s own rope against it? What might its painful stickiness mean? Consider in your answer Bilbo’s drive to climb the rope anyway.
I suppose you have something Jungian in mind in this question.
I don't know.
2. After we think that we’ve finally evaded all of the most obvious obstacles, within ourselves or not, there always seems to be one left! What is this last spider, symbolically speaking?
Did Bilbo really think the coast was clear? Well, probably the last obstacle has a symbolic meaning.
3. What parallels might you see to regaining lost parts of a person who has long labored under troubles, errors, fears, or other obstacles, within or not? You may use hypothetical examples and/or change names.
Isn't this true of any task? The longer and more ardous it is, the more point of support you have. That's not just about regaining lost parts of a person!
4. Story-wise, what must it mean to Bilbo to be the hero, the strongest and cleverest of the lot? Now, now. So far he is only the luckiest.
Unless you mean, once they have been weakened by the previous struggle, and have been quite debilitated by hanging on the tree with poison in their blood.
How would you rank this turning-point, among all the turning-points in the book? (Consider, among other things, that he has done all of this after going without food longer than he did in the Misty Mountains, when he became too weak to cook the food that the Eagles provided.)
Based on your parameters, he was already the strongest and cleverest when all the dwarves were in sacks and he was free. But he didn't do much then.
5. To what extent do you think Bilbo owes this victory to the Ring? Do you think he could have managed without it?
No.
6. Within the Tolkienverse, what effect might the Ring have on Bilbo by his use of it to wax in power?
You discussed this before.
What effect might it have on the dwarves?
I think you have a little idea! Later in this post.
When Tolkien went back and rewrote “The Hobbit”, knowing what the Ring would turn out to be, do you think he kept this in mind?
He didn't. He never got further than the third chapter.
7. Do you think Bilbo inspired them?
Yes.
Encouraged them?
I'm not exactly sure of the difference. Is encouraging when you are already engaged in the activity? So no, although the would have probably fought anyway.
Or did they simply see that their lives depended on all fighting together.
I'm sure they did see that.
8. Does this make Bilbo their captain, in the absence of Thorin (which we will get to, soon)?
No; his being the only one with a real weapon does it.
Is this the Ring’s doing, or Bilbo coming into his own, or a combination?
Well, Bilbo needs to use the power! So it is a combination of a sort.
9. What would the original Bilbo, fresh out of Bag End, have done?
Fall on the mat and melt like jelly.
What specifically has made him who he is now?
The whole process. Responsibilty doesn't happen to a person, it grows in him.
10. What comes to mind with Balin taking charge?
Tolkien is teasing us with Thorin missing. Do we catch it?
11. Any symbolic meaning come to mind with this turn of events?
Of what? Of both parties falling with sheer exhaustion at the same time?
12. Why do you think Balin might be more interested in the Ring than the rest?
Because he was the look-out man, and wished to abolish the professional slight he felt was cast upon him.
He was also the most observant and curious of them (which probably was why he was always the look-out man).
But I suspect you are thinking of the Ring's influence on Balin, and whether that was what sent him to Moria.
Does anyone know if this was in the original version?
I think so. Why not?
But I haven't read neither Anderson nor Rateliff.
13. Do you find the complete about-turn of the dwarves in their attitude towards Bilbo strange, or understandable?
Understanable. If the dwarves believe firmly in luck (as it appears to be), and note that he is the luck-bearer - they will greatly respect him.
Does Bilbo have it coming, or is the Ring working on the dwarves, or might it be a combination of both?
I see no reason to attribute this to the Ring.
"Don't start grumbling against orders, or something bad will happen to you." - Thorin
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 17 2009, 8:12pm
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Apparently when Tolkien began writing this, he decided to use the names from the Elder Edda as exclusively Dwarf names. It was not until he was writing the plot outline for the adventure beyond "Medwed's" house that he made a note to change that name to Beorn, Bladorthin to Gandalf, and Gandalf to Thorin Oakenshield, although he did not actually make the latter changes until they reached Lake Town.
Rateliff devotes a small subsection to Tolkien's "Theseus Theme". This was also part of the original plot outline for this chapter.
The lines about the Elves protecting the path was lost when this theme was dropped: "The wood-elves were not going to have dwarves wandering about in their part of the forest, starving or not. So they went back to the place where they had caught Gandalf, and finding no one there they waylaid the track. They knew all about it, because they made it, and still guarded and kept [it] open most of the way."
This is implied in the earlier part of the chapter, but because of the addition of the enchanted stream and dropping of the string ball, it ended up being never outright stated!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 17 2009, 11:27pm
Post #11 of 27
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As of a volcano on the verge of exploding. Yet, as with the eruption of a volcano, it did come as a sudden shock far surpassing the warning signals. I suspect that Bilbo did have it in him all along, but as Sam mentioned about Frodo later, he needed a bit of an education first.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 17 2009, 11:28pm
Post #12 of 27
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I think he thought of Gandalf originally as a name for a dwarf because it's on a list of dwarf names in some folkloric source that I forget (was it the Nibelungenlied? Not sure.)
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 17 2009, 11:32pm
Post #13 of 27
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Thanks for the correction.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Twit
Menegroth
May 18 2009, 11:56am
Post #14 of 27
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. Story-wise, what must it mean to Bilbo to be the hero, the strongest and cleverest of the lot? How would you rank this turning-point, among all the turning-points in the book? (Consider, among other things, that he has done all of this after going without food longer than he did in the Misty Mountains, when he became too weak to cook the food that the Eagles provided.)
It is like his final initiation, he is prepared mentally and physically for what lies ahead. He now knows what he can do, and can only get better.
5. To what extent do you think Bilbo owes this victory to the Ring? Do you think he could have managed without it?
I think the fact that he was invisible helped alot. Maybe the ring enhances his ability to fight, sharpens his mind in order to survive.
7. Do you think Bilbo inspired them? Encouraged them? Or did they simply see that their lives depended on all fighting together.
one for all and all for one. I think it was probably instinct and sheer bloody-mindedness
8. Does this make Bilbo their captain, in the absence of Thorin (which we will get to, soon)? Is this the Ring’s doing, or Bilbo coming into his own, or a combination?
I don't think this makes him captain, not yet. He is still neither as big nor as strong as a Dwarf, and I get the impression they are into the biggest, strongest and best physically rather than intellectually.
9. What would the original Bilbo, fresh out of Bag End, have done? What specifically has made him who he is now?
curled up and been eaten. His experiences so far and the ring have helped shape him into what he is now.
'... no spider has ever liked being called Attercop, and Tomnoddy of course is insulting to anybody.'
(The Hobbit)
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
May 18 2009, 8:11pm
Post #15 of 27
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1. What might it mean, symbolically, to use evil’s own rope against it?
There's letters seal'd: and my two schoolfellows,
Whom I will trust as I will adders fang'd,
They bear the mandate; they must sweep my way
And marshal me to knavery. Let it work;
For 'tis the sport to have the enginer
Hoist with his own petar; and 't shall go hard
But I will delve one yard below their mines
And blow them at the moon: O, 'tis most sweet,
When in one line two crafts directly meet.
-Hamlet
What might its painful stickiness mean?
Sometimes you just have to grab the bull by the tail and face the situation, no matter how messy it gets.
Consider in your answer Bilbo’s drive to climb the rope anyway.
Sometimes the situation is so grave you just go without thinking of the obstacles.
Thinking the coast clear, he runs into an “old slow wicked fat-bodied spider” (How Tolkien got past an editor with that phrase sans commas, I’ll never know!) who stayed behind to guard the prisoner (and incidently get a head start on the feasting.) By now, though, Bilbo’s got so much momentum going for him that he dispatches it in a flash.
I love how the lack of commas drives the sentence without pause mirrors how Bilbo is hurrying to the rescue without pause. A master storyteller! Good writers know how to follow the rules, great writers know how to break them.
2. After we think that we’ve finally evaded all of the most obvious obstacles, within ourselves or not, there always seems to be one left! What is this last spider, symbolically speaking?
It symbolizes that last minute trip to Home Depot you have to make early Saturday morning just when you get started on that weekend project you’ve been planning all week.
Before you get started on something, you always have to do something else.
Now comes the business of retrieving dwarves. Often, after we get rid of what we don’t want in our lives or in ourselves, we find that we haven’t finished the job–we now have to retrieve whatever desirable things those problems bound up or dispatched. Medicine-people (and shamans all over the world) call this soul-retrieval, while modern psychologists prefer the term “reintegrating dissociated elements of the personality”.
Like how Windows inserts itself in every program you install on your computer. Then when you uninstall the program, the Windows part still remains, and you really have to manually dig into the files to get rid of it all. Otherwise you’ll get stupid random messages saying “Windows can’t find program X!” and you yell “Well, of course it can’t! I uninstalled that sucker last year!!”
As Bilbo retrieves the dwarves, he finds them shaky, weak, sick and poisoned, suffocated, and bruised by the pinching of the spiders. At the same time, they’re ludicrous enough in their debility to make Bilbo laugh despite himself. However, the more dwarves he frees, the more helpers he has at the task, as they slowly regain some strength.
3. What parallels might you see to regaining lost parts of a person who has long labored under troubles, errors, fears, or other obstacles, within or not? You may use hypothetical examples and/or change names.
Humor is usually the best medicine.
4. Story-wise, what must it mean to Bilbo to be the hero, the strongest and cleverest of the lot?
The exaltation of the humble.
How would you rank this turning-point, among all the turning-points in the book? (Consider, among other things, that he has done all of this after going without food longer than he did in the Misty Mountains, when he became too weak to cook the food that the Eagles provided.)
“Today I yam a man!”
5. To what extent do you think Bilbo owes this victory to the Ring?
A tool is just a tool. It takes expertise, talent, and imagination to use it effectively.
Do you think he could have managed without it?
“There is little or no magic about them, except the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along, making a noise like elephants which they can hear a mile off.”
The ring merely makes it easier.
6. Within the Tolkienverse, what effect might the Ring have on Bilbo by his use of it to wax in power?
It’s interesting to speculate on whether the ring caused Bilbo to become alienated from the other hobbits of the Shire. Like he had the will to dominate them, so he had to separate himself so he wouldn’t fall to the temptation.
What effect might it have on the dwarves?
Look what happened with the Nauglamír, not to mention the Arkenstone. Somebody always dies.
When Tolkien went back and rewrote “The Hobbit”, knowing what the Ring would turn out to be, do you think he kept this in mind?
The One Ring always preys on one’s mind, especially the writer.
Halfway through dwarf-reclaiming, the spiders return. Bilbo fends them off from the laboring dwarves without his ring on. When he sees Bombur recaptured, he drops down all by himself to the rescue. When he finally does call down the rest of the dwarves, it’s because he sees more spiders after them. Finally, the dwarves start to do battle beside him as well, with whatever sticks and stones come to hand, although still very weak and shaky.
Do you think Bilbo inspired them? Encouraged them? Or did they simply see that their lives depended on all fighting together.
That’s how just about all the survivors say they got off Omaha Beach. Scared, wet, cold, horrified, expecting to die any moment, one would see an anonymous soldier fighting and moving forward, so he said to himself “If he can do it, so can I!” And he in turn was the anonymous soldier who similarly inspired another, then that one inspired another, and so on, and so forth, and thus a disastrous bloodbath was turned into a victory.
8. Does this make Bilbo their captain, in the absence of Thorin (which we will get to, soon)?
I note Thorin has already been treating Bilbo as one of his “go to” lieutenants.
Is this the Ring’s doing, or Bilbo coming into his own, or a combination?
Again, at this point I see the Ring as merely a tool.
At last the situation turns so desperate that our exhausted little hobbit puts on the Ring in front of everybody. He could have done so to escape a losing battle, but instead runs off to lure the spiders away again. Balin catches on faster than the rest, and leads a charge on the spiders that breaks them out...for a little while. They really are too sick from poison to run very far, and though they fight with as much valor as they can, under the circumstances, Bilbo reappears sans ring in their midst to save them yet again. He shouts at the dwarves to run while he manages the rear-guard all by himself! Just when exhaustion nearly defeats him, morale among the spiders drops sufficiently that they turn away (presumably to look for easier prey. Those dwarves were pretty tough, anyway. And grapes out of reach are always sour.)
Yes, most battles are decided by morale rather than by decimation.
9. What would the original Bilbo, fresh out of Bag End, have done?
He’d be dead by now.
What specifically has made him who he is now?
Facing Gollum, facing death, foiling death.
10. What comes to mind with Balin taking charge?
Again, Balin is the hero of “the battle of the Mines of Moria”, aka “the dwarf and goblin war”, aka “the war which you have heard mentioned, but which does not come into this tale”.
11. Any symbolic meaning come to mind with this turn of events?
Balin and Bilbo will become great friends. And Bilbo has become both warrior-hero Balin and trickster-wizard Gandalf.
Finally, the dwarves find themselves within an elven clearing, where they can rest and recuperate. They grill Bilbo about the Ring (especially Balin) but they also suddenly and completely defer to him, expecting him to come up with all of the answers
12. Why do you think Balin might be more interested in the Ring than the rest?
He’s probably wondering if it’s one of the Seven. But mainly he’s latching on the answer of how Bilbo snuck by him to prove he isn’t too old yet!
Does anyone know if this was in the original version?
Which original version?
13. Do you find the complete about-turn of the dwarves in their attitude towards Bilbo strange, or understandable?
In battle a man (or hobbit) can go from cretin to hero (or vice versa) in the eyes of his fellows. Indeed, the fear of appearing a coward to one’s buddies is often greater than the fear of death, and that fear has made many a hero.
Does Bilbo have it coming, or is the Ring working on the dwarves, or might it be a combination of both?
“Knowing the truth about the vanishing did not lessen their opinion of Bilbo at all; for they saw that he had some wits, as well as luck and a magic ring-and all three are very useful possessions.”
14. Any further ideas?
Anyone who fights in a rear guard is a hero in my book.
Pictures?
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
Questions you would like to discuss?
“The dwarves then noticed that they had come to the edge of a ring where elf-fires had been. Whether it was one of those they had seen the night before, they could not tell. But it seemed that some good magic lingered in such spots, which the spiders did not like. At any rate here the light was greener, and the boughs less thick and threatening, and they had a chance to rest and draw breath.”
Morgoth’s taint?
Observations to make?
“Come down! Come down!” he shouted to the dwarves on the branch. “Don’t stay up there and be netted!” For he saw spiders swarming up all the neighboring trees, and crawling along the boughs above the heads of the dwarves.
(Jackson completely reverses this image with the Moria goblins/orcs swarming down the pillars of the Great Hall. Again, one wonders if The Hobbit film will feel too derivative.)
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 18 2009, 10:06pm
Post #16 of 27
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The reference to Omaha Beach especially moved me.
As for Morgoth's Taint creating a safe place for the dwarves, I kind of doubt it, even if it was ring-shaped. Sometimes a ring is only a wrapper on a cigar, even if it's a magic cigar. (And only someone who has read along with this whole chapter would get that!)
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
May 18 2009, 10:30pm
Post #17 of 27
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The ring was the only place that wasn't tainted by the spiders.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 19 2009, 12:53am
Post #18 of 27
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I almost overlooked this one, about whether Balin had been originally more interested than the others in Bilbo's Ring!
Yes, this part was there from the first, and it can be seen that the ever-watchful Balin was simply coming to terms with Bilbo's using the Ring to confound him earlier:
"They just lay and looked at one another - except Balin, who kept on saying - 'so that is how he sneaked past me was it! Now I know. Little <terror> - good old Bilbo - Bilbo - Bilbo-bo-bo-bo', till they told him to shut up."
As best as I can recall from the Annotated Hobbit, the only real change Tolkien made to The Hobbit due to the nature of the Ring was the "Riddles in the Dark" chapter. Bilbo's character remained the same, and he was always intended to have a journey and return home, no longer "respectable"!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Curious
Gondolin
May 19 2009, 6:01pm
Post #19 of 27
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1. What might it mean, symbolically, to use evil’s own rope against it?
"Oft evil will shall evil mar."
What might its painful stickiness mean? Consider in your answer Bilbo’s drive to climb the rope anyway.
No pain, no gain.
2. After we think that we’ve finally evaded all of the most obvious obstacles, within ourselves or not, there always seems to be one left! What is this last spider, symbolically speaking?
Proof that Bilbo will not be stopped.
3. What parallels might you see to regaining lost parts of a person who has long labored under troubles, errors, fears, or other obstacles, within or not? You may use hypothetical examples and/or change names.
I'm going to take a little different angle on it, if I may. It's not enough to free yourself from bonds, real or psychological. It's important to free others as well, to free each other as a group. That's what support groups are about. That's why AA and Weight Watchers work. And that's also the way humans work. We are pack animals; we operate best as a pack.
4. Story-wise, what must it mean to Bilbo to be the hero, the strongest and cleverest of the lot?
"The last shall be first." Matthew 20:16.
How would you rank this turning-point, among all the turning-points in the book? (Consider, among other things, that he has done all of this after going without food longer than he did in the Misty Mountains, when he became too weak to cook the food that the Eagles provided.)
This is one of a few significant milestones in Bilbo's adventure. I think Riddles in the Dark might be the most significant, but An Unexpected Party was certain significant, and so is the present chapter. There are more to come -- when Bilbo tricks Smaug, when he gives up the Arkenstone. Each event builds upon the previous events; here Bilbo not only saves himself, but also, for the first time, saves the rest of the party.
5. To what extent do you think Bilbo owes this victory to the Ring?
Luck is important, but would not save him without courage and wit to go with it.
Do you think he could have managed without it?
No, but one of Tolkien's themes is that no hero can manage without luck -- see, for example, Turin, who had everything Bilbo lacks, but did not have Bilbo's luck.
6. Within the Tolkienverse, what effect might the Ring have on Bilbo by his use of it to wax in power? What effect might it have on the dwarves? When Tolkien went back and rewrote “The Hobbit”, knowing what the Ring would turn out to be, do you think he kept this in mind?
I don't know of any significant changes to this chapter after the ring became the Ring.
7. Do you think Bilbo inspired them? Encouraged them? Or did they simply see that their lives depended on all fighting together.
Yes.
8. Does this make Bilbo their captain, in the absence of Thorin (which we will get to, soon)?
Bilbo's a paid retainer, a professional adventurer coming into his own. He does not plan to settle down with the dwarves for the rest of his life, and so will never be one of them like Thorin is. But in a pinch, they will turn to Bilbo for ideas and leadership.
Is this the Ring’s doing, or Bilbo coming into his own, or a combination?
It's not the Ring's doing, because when Tolkien wrote this it was just a ring of invisibility. It is Bilbo coming into his own with the help of luck. The ring is at this point a symbol of Bilbo's luck.
9. What would the original Bilbo, fresh out of Bag End, have done?
What did he do when the trolls captured the dwarves? Nothing.
What specifically has made him who he is now?
His luck, his courage, and his wit. Gandalf pushed him into situations where he was forced to use all three, and Gandalf also modeled Trickster techniques for Bilbo, which he then uses against the spiders. To pick up on something squire said in an earlier thread, Bilbo has also completed the process of becoming childlike, and uses his childhood ability to throw missiles, and childhood taunts, against the spiders.
10. What comes to mind with Balin taking charge?
Balin naturally takes command in Thorin's absence. Of course, this will prove to be Balin's undoing in the events recounted in LotR.
11. Any symbolic meaning come to mind with this turn of events?
Nothing more than we have already discussed.
12. Why do you think Balin might be more interested in the Ring than the rest?
Because Bilbo snuck past him and hurt his pride -- but to his credit, Balin finds it humorous.
Does anyone know if this was in the original version?
Not me.
13. Do you find the complete about-turn of the dwarves in their attitude towards Bilbo strange, or understandable?
It wasn't a recent about-turn. It started when Bilbo escaped the goblins, continued when he helped cross the magical stream, and has come to fruition because he saves them from the spiders. It was gradual and understandable -- and note that it is not altogether pleasant for Bilbo, who is now expected to find food and shelter.
Does Bilbo have it coming, or is the Ring working on the dwarves, or might it be a combination of both?
No, the Ring was just a ring of invisibility when Tolkien wrote this. The ring is not "working on the dwarves."
14. Any further ideas? Pictures? Questions you would like to discuss? Observations to make?
Not at this time.
(This post was edited by Curious on May 19 2009, 6:03pm)
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
May 19 2009, 6:03pm
Post #20 of 27
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What might it mean, symbolically, to use evil’s own rope against it?
Well, I could say the it means same thing as it means to use the Enemy’s attachment to the Ring and his blindness to its destruction against it in FOTR. You probably mean something like, “Oft evil will evil mar,” or however Tolkien put it. That’s not how I read it, though. It’s just a mistake the spiders made, leaving a way for Bilbo to rescue his friends.
2. After we think that we’ve finally evaded all of the most obvious obstacles, within ourselves or not, there always seems to be one left! What is this last spider, symbolically speaking?
A way of keeping the plot interesting.
4. Story-wise, what must it mean to Bilbo to be the hero, the strongest and cleverest of the lot?
He has a streak of vanity as shown when he uses the ring to sneak up on the Dwarves after escaping from the mountains and his accepting their wonder at his assumed natural ability. Rescuing the Dwarves will probably puff him up a bit. On the other hand, he will find their expectations a burden.
How would you rank this turning-point, among all the turning-points in the book? (Consider, among other things, that he has done all of this after going without food longer than he did in the Misty Mountains, when he became too weak to cook the food that the Eagles provided.)
Getting them into the Lonely Mountain will be his biggest contribution to the Dwarven company, but this one is important in its way.
5. To what extent do you think Bilbo owes this victory to the Ring? Do you think he could have managed without it?
It was a big help. As quiet as hobbits are, they aren’t invisible. He couldn’t have succeeded with this particular plan without it. I don’t know if he would have come up with something else as effective if he didn’t have the ring..
6. Within the Tolkienverse, what effect might the Ring have on Bilbo by his use of it to wax in power?
I have trouble understanding this question. Are you saying Bilbo is using the Ring in order to wax in power, and so what effect is the Ring having on him because of his decision to gain power from it? If so I think you premise isn’t quite right. The ring isn’t having any effect on him in The Hobbit, other than giving him a way to sneak around and take credit for things, that he didn’t have before finding it.
What effect might it have on the dwarves?
They don’t know of it till Bilbo tells them.
When Tolkien went back and rewrote “The Hobbit”, knowing what the Ring would turn out to be, do you think he kept this in mind?
Maybe, but I don’t think he decided to include anything more sinister than Bilbo’s mischievous taking credit for something he couldn’t do naturally. Tolkien focuses on The Hobbit story, leaving the corruption of the Ring to LOTR.
7. Do you think Bilbo inspired them? Encouraged them? Or did they simply see that their lives depended on all fighting together.
Self defense, although they did steal the method from Bilbo because it obviously had some effectiveness.
8. Does this make Bilbo their captain, in the absence of Thorin (which we will get to, soon)? Is this the Ring’s doing, or Bilbo coming into his own, or a combination?
They’re willing to take suggestion from him because it makes sense.
10. What comes to mind with Balin taking charge?
He was Thorin’s nearest relative, I think.
11. Any symbolic meaning come to mind with this turn of events?
The show must go on.
12. Why do you think Balin might be more interested in the Ring than the rest?
Because he had had confidence in his ability as watchman until Bilbo slipped past him. Balin had thought he (Balin) had slipped up there. He had probably felt guilty and a little less sure of himself after that. To learn that wasn’t the case was naturally important to him. He’s conscientious and wants to know exactly how Bilbo got past him.
13. Do you find the complete about-turn of the dwarves in their attitude towards Bilbo strange, or understandable?
Tolkien has given us precedents to make it understandable. Bilbo helped in small ways by bringing the Trolls’ key to their attention and yelling when the goblins attacked in the mountains. More important, Bilbo had the good luck and perceptiveness to find his way out of the mountains. Now he’s used the same qualities here. They’re finding him reliable.
Does Bilbo have it coming, or is the Ring working on the dwarves, or might it be a combination of both?
I don’t think see any influence on the Dwarves besides their logical conclusions in the face of Bilbo’s bravery and other assets.
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 19 2009, 7:36pm
Post #21 of 27
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Always feel free to take a different angle. That's what makes the Reading Room, at its best, so stimulating--so many different angles!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
May 19 2009, 10:59pm
Post #22 of 27
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I suspect that Bilbo was a bit lucky that he didn't cut one of his own fingers of with that sharp Elven sword of his! But then as Tolkien tells us, he was born with a lot of luck!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 22 2009, 8:10pm
Post #23 of 27
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1. What might it mean, symbolically, to use evil’s own rope against it? What might its painful stickiness mean? Consider in your answer Bilbo’s drive to climb the rope anyway.
Yes, "Oft evil will shall evil mar" is a good answer. But there is the added angle, that you have to take care when turning an enemy's weapons against him, because they're sticky--you can become too much like what you oppose if you use such means too often.
'
It also says something about Bilbo's drive to grow that he is willing to endure any kind of pain to get where he feels that he must.
2. After we think that we’ve finally evaded all of the most obvious obstacles, within ourselves or not, there always seems to be one left! What is this last spider, symbolically speaking?
To my thinking, this is the very darkest part of Bilbo's Bombur side, not surprisingly preparing to devour anything that is loveable or redeemable about that aspect of himself, in the person of Bombur himself. This is naked greed, naked laziness, the ugliest truth about being willing to let others do the work while one feasts alone, betraying even one's own allies.
Bilbo does not reject a little bit of self-indulgence--rescuing Bombur is what motivates him into action. He does not become an ascetic saint (in the last chapter we see Balin discreetly refraining from commenting on how Bilbo's waistcoat has expanded over time.) but he does slay what that self-indulgence could ultimately become if its worst potential goes unconfronted.
3. What parallels might you see to regaining lost parts of a person who has long labored under troubles, errors, fears, or other obstacles, within or not? You may use hypothetical examples and/or change names.
I once knew a woman recovering from addiction to heroin and crack, trying to rebuild her life. She regarded herself as stupid, and dreaded going to job interviews. I told her, "Are you kidding me? Look at all of the ingenious schemes you engineered to get money for drugs! And you did it all while your mind was still clouded. I'm sorry that it took addiction to force you to discover your full potential, but now that all your cards are on the table, look at the hand you've got--you're brilliant!" She got employed soon after.
4. Story-wise, what must it mean to Bilbo to be the hero, the strongest and cleverest of the lot? How would you rank this turning-point, among all the turning-points in the book? (Consider, among other things, that he has done all of this after going without food longer than he did in the Misty Mountains, when he became too weak to cook the food that the Eagles provided.)
Personally, I'd call it a close second to finding the Ring, on a practical level, and I'd give it first place on the moral growth level. Before, in the goblin tunnels, he finds his magical aid, but here in Mirkwood he finds the very substance of himself, that will stay with him whether he has a magic ring or not.
5. To what extent do you think Bilbo owes this victory to the Ring? Do you think he could have managed without it?
I think that the Ring gave him confidence, and gave him an edge, but he might have--just barely--been able to pull it off by himself. Remember, hobbits are naturally adept at going unseen and unheard when they want. I'd almost rank the Ring with the gifts from the Wizard of Oz.
6. Within the Tolkienverse, what effect might the Ring have on Bilbo by his use of it to wax in power? What effect might it have on the dwarves? When Tolkien went back and rewrote “The Hobbit”, knowing what the Ring would turn out to be, do you think he kept this in mind?
I know that others disagree, but I do think it affects the dwarves. It's one thing to increase in respect for someone who has shown resourcefulness in getting you out of a bad situation, it's another to suddenly lose all initiative in determining your own course, surrendering cultlike to this other person.
I also disagree with the argument that Tolkien had no idea of where he would later go with the Ring at the time that he wrote "The Hobbit". When one sets about writing a sequel that one originally did not intend, one reads over what one has written before for ideas, nuances that one didn't see before, that could add up to a future plot twist; bits of story that could make even more sense after the sequel comes out. Tolkien may have originally oversimplified the reaction of the dwarves with a child audience in mind, but I expect that when he re-read his own work with adult eyes, the incongruity of their behavior leaped out at him. And from attempts to resolve incongruity come some of the best story ideas.
7. Do you think Bilbo inspired them? Encouraged them? Or did they simply see that their lives depended on all fighting together.
Yes. I made that question too easy, giving every possible answer away. Sorry.
8. Does this make Bilbo their captain, in the absence of Thorin (which we will get to, soon)? Is this the Ring’s doing, or Bilbo coming into his own, or a combination?
The natural captain would be Balin, who, had his reactions remained natural, would have praised Bilbo, maybe pinned a medal on him (or promised him one) and made him second in command. Am I right, Darkstone, if you're still reading this far back?
Instead Balin and all of the dwarves become dependant on Bilbo. Balin does lead a charge, but as Bilbo's second in command. Bilbo makes all decisions, now. That seems suspiciously ringish to me.
9. What would the original Bilbo, fresh out of Bag End, have done? What specifically has made him who he is now?
The respectable Mr. Baggins, fresh out of the Shire, would have run away and hid, watching fearfully from the bushes and wringing his hands. He might have eventually become a sort of Gollum of Mirkwood, if he survived.
What has changed is, for one thing, that he has gradually become inured to hardships and fear. But more important than that, he has also traveled long enough with these dwarves to bond with them, flaws and all. They have, after all, rescued him from a few tight spots, themselves, at considerable risk, even if they did grumble about it. This might well be the first time that he ever met anybody willing to risk their lives for him, or for whom he has developed sufficient feelings to risk his life for them.
No doubt he had many "friends" in the Shire, and threw spectacular parties for them. But did he really? He had become so adept at hiding who he was, and offering a social mask instead, that he himself hardly knew who he was inside anymore. Yes, in the Shire he had friends who were glad enough to partake of his excellent cooking--but would have shunned him if he spoke the deep poetry within him or otherwise acted unpredictable--as they later do. The Authentic Bilbo does become an outcast in the Shire, until some of his younger kin grow up and befriend him (no doubt influenced by him from an early age.) Nobody rejoices that Bilbo turns out alive! They're just disappointed that they don't get a shot at his wealth. That shows what they really wanted from him, all along.
10. What comes to mind with Balin taking charge?
For me that he's a fine candidate for becoming the King of Khazad-Dum.
11. Any symbolic meaning come to mind with this turn of events?
That the parts of yourself that you reclaim can start to take on a life of their own at your aid. Bilbo has claimed something Balinish in himself.
12. Why do you think Balin might be more interested in the Ring than the rest? Does anyone know if this was in the original version?
Okay, so he wants to know how Bilbo snuck past him. But let's face it, he's also ambitious. Who else would try to retake Moria?
13. Do you find the complete about-turn of the dwarves in their attitude towards Bilbo strange, or understandable? Does Bilbo have it coming, or is the Ring working on the dwarves, or might it be a combination of both?
I didn't structure these questions very well. I already answered this one above. I think that Bilbo has some of it coming, but the Ring exaggerates it.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
May 23 2009, 7:11am
Post #24 of 27
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to BfME (the game) perhaps, being spiders, they were never that difficult to defeat. Irrational fear probably adds great might (for many) to the otherwise feeble poison wielders.
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
May 23 2009, 7:17am
Post #25 of 27
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"But I will delve one yard below their mines
And blow them at the moon"
Righteous answers my lord.
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