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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 11 2009, 7:37pm
Post #1 of 33
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Flies & Spiders II. The Waters of Oblivion
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II. The Waters of Oblivion–Monday Afternoon,, May 11, 2009
(I had originally planned to lead this discussion linearly, but the rich foreshadowings and interwoven themes do not lend themselves to that sort of presentation. So bear with me, please, as I seem to sometimes leave out matters of significance to come back to later.)
Our heroes encounter a stream that flows right across their path.
“It flowed fast and strong, but not very wide right across the way, and it was black, or looked it in the gloom.”
In their thirst they felt very tempted to drink of it, yet Beorn warned them about this particular water:
“There is one stream there, I know, black and strong, which crosses the path. That you should neither drink of, nor bathe in; for I have heard that it carries enchantment and a great drowsiness and forgetfulness.”
(Feel free, if you wish, to completely ignore these questions and tell us instead what you like, dislike, or notice about the enchanted creek and/or the crossing of it.)
1. Can anyone think of similar enchanted waters in folklore? Other novels? Movies? Comic books? Myths? Family tales?
2. Taking into consideration whatever you answered before about the overall significance of Mirkwood Forest, how does the Enchanted Stream fit into that picture?
Our heroes show wonderful teamwork in figuring out how to cross the river, setting each person to the task best suited to them (almost as though they have read Miyamoto Musashi’s classic strategy text, “The Book of Five Rings”–anyone who has read this feel free to comment.) The dwarves fit Bilbo smoothly into this effort, on account of him having the sharpest eyes.
3. How his status has changed! What has caused this change? How do you think it affects Bilbo to now be part of a team? Do you think he might ever have been part of a team before? Do you think he has noticed the transition, or has it been too gradual for comment? What does it say about who he is becoming?
4. Why does Thorin choose himself, Bilbo, Fili and Kili to cross over first?
Unfortunately, a deer ruins everything by leaping right through their midst, knocking Bombur into the water (shortly after Thorin warned him that grumbling against orders could cause something bad to happen to him.)
(I will say more about Bombur in a subsequent discussion. Same goes for the hunting-horns.)
Now, I had in mind all sorts of symbolic research into the possible significance of Deer in this scene, but Tolkien might merely have needed a large animal that leaps creeks to bowl over poor Bombur. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
5. However, if you do see symbolic meaning in the presence of this deer, by all means share! And what additional practical role might the appearance of the deer play in this story?
6. Thorin takes a shot at the black deer, and it connects, but the deer falls out of their reach. How many different things might this scene say about Thorin, positive and/or negative?
While sitting around the slumbering Bombur in a “What’ll we do now?” kind of haze, the party suddenly sees other deer on the path foward: “...a hind and fawns as snowy-white as the hart had been dark.” Before Thorin can stop them, three other dwarves waste all their arrows on these deer and miss. They hear elvish hunting-horns in the distance.
7. Why are these deer white, and the other black? How many different reasons might you come up with as to why they appear there, whether plot-practical, symbolic, or otherwise?
Tolkien offers one reason, right in the book, that if the dwarves had only known it, seeing these deer would have told them that in fact they had begun to approach the limit of the forest. However, they did not know enough about the forest to understand that.
8. Why do these deer signify that they fast approach the far edge of Mirkwood?
9. What might it signify, to have glimpsed a glimmer of hope and not recognized it for what it is? How might their actions in response fit in with your answer?
10. Who enchanted the creek, anyway? The Necromancer? The elves? Or was it always thus? Other ideas? Any thoughts on motivation? Or do you suppose that it just happened?
11. Any other thoughts on this passage?
(We will get to the hunting-horns later.)
(I also invite pictures of white deer, black deer, spooky streams, or anything else that seems relevant. TORn guidelines apply.)
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
May 11 2009, 10:01pm
Post #2 of 33
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1. Can anyone think of similar enchanted waters in folklore? Other novels? Movies? Comic books? Myths? Family tales?
The River Lethe, also known as the River of Oblivion, came to mind. People drink to forget. The Annotated Hobbit also says that in Celtic legends such streams are associated with Faerie. This also resembles the enchantment cast upon Bilbo and Thorin when they enter the Elven Feasts. I see this as an Elven enchantment, and part of the protection of the Elven lands in Mirkwood.
2. Taking into consideration whatever you answered before about the overall significance of Mirkwood Forest, how does the Enchanted Stream fit into that picture?
One of the considerable dangers of Elven lands is that mortals will enter but won't want to return, or will lose track of time and return when everyone they knew is old or dead. Metaphorically, having lost his grounding and the comfort of his previous life, one of the considerable dangers for Bilbo during his midlife crisis is that he will lose all sense of purpose, fail to move forward, and dwell forever in Mirkwood.
Our heroes show wonderful teamwork in figuring out how to cross the river, setting each person to the task best suited to them (almost as though they have read Miyamoto Musashi’s classic strategy text, "The Book of Five Rings"–anyone who has read this feel free to comment.) The dwarves fit Bilbo smoothly into this effort, on account of him having the sharpest eyes.
The master carpenter distributes the work among his men according to their levels of skill. Some are floor layers, others makers of sliding doors, thresholds and lintels, ceilings and so on. Those of poor ability lay the floor joists, and those of even lesser ability can carve wedges and do such miscellaneous work. If the master knows and deploys his men well the work will progress smoothly and the result will be good.
The master carpenter should take into account the abilities and limitations of his men. Circulating among them, he can know their spirit and different levels of morale, encourage them when necessary, understand what can and cannot be realized, and thus ask nothing unreasonable. The principle of strategy is like this.
The Book of Five Rings, Miyamoto Musashi (I looked it up.)
3. How his status has changed! What has caused this change?
His escape from the goblins.
How do you think it affects Bilbo to now be part of a team?
He is no longer a quivering bowl of jelly.
Do you think he might ever have been part of a team before?
Not on an adventure, that's for sure.
Do you think he has noticed the transition, or has it been too gradual for comment?
Bilbo noticed, and was quite pleased -- until the Wargs taught him that invisibility wasn't everything, and the goblins nearly fried him, and the Eagles' rescue scared him, and Gandalf left him in charge at the end of the last chapter: "'You have got to look after these dwarves for me,' [Gandalf] laughed." Bilbo is no longer strutting as he did when he sneaked into the dwarves' council.
What does it say about who he is becoming?
Bilbo comes up with the idea and leads the effort, although he relies on the strength of the dwarves. Bilbo is becoming the brains of the operation.
4. Why does Thorin choose himself, Bilbo, Fili and Kili to cross over first?
Thorin is the nominal leader, the rest are their usual scouts. I think they may also be the lightest and therefore can crowd together in the same boat, with the exception of Thorin who just wants to go first and watch over the crossing.
Unfortunately, a deer ruins everything by leaping right through their midst, knocking Bombur into the water (shortly after Thorin warned him that grumbling against orders could cause something bad to happen to him.)
(I will say more about Bombur in a subsequent discussion. Same goes for the hunting-horns.)
Now, I had in mind all sorts of symbolic research into the possible significance of Deer in this scene, but Tolkien might merely have needed a large animal that leaps creeks to bowl over poor Bombur. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
5. However, if you do see symbolic meaning in the presence of this deer, by all means share! And what additional practical role might the appearance of the deer play in this story?
In Beowulf, King Hrothgar's great hall was called Heorot, or Hart. Stag ornamentation was found at the Anglo-Saxon burial ground, Sutton Hoo. Saint Augustine said with disgust that the Anglo-Saxons dressed up as stags. The stag seems to have been associated with royalty, the king of the forest, and we see that association as recently as the movie Bambi.
Perhaps it means something, then, that Thorin, the king of the dwarves, shoots the stag. On the other hand, the stag and the white deer that appear thereafter may also be a part of the Elves' defense mechanism at the border of their kingdom. Perhaps the stag is associated with different royalty, the Elvenking. Or perhaps the stag is just a stag. Then again, this seems to be the first time they have seen a deer.
Did the hart really die, or did it disappear? We never find out for sure. The white hind and fawn also vanish, and none of the arrows "seem to find their mark." Are these real deer or enchantments?
6. Thorin takes a shot at the black deer, and it connects, but the deer falls out of their reach. How many different things might this scene say about Thorin, positive and/or negative?
Thorin is the most warlike member of the party. He's also alert where the others are not. He shoots the deer, but perhaps he should not have done so. After all, he tells the other dwarves not to waste their arrows on the white deer.
While sitting around the slumbering Bombur in a "What’ll we do now?" kind of haze, the party suddenly sees other deer on the path foward: "...a hind and fawns as snowy-white as the hart had been dark." Before Thorin can stop them, three other dwarves waste all their arrows on these deer and miss. They hear elvish hunting-horns in the distance.
7. Why are these deer white, and the other black? How many different reasons might you come up with as to why they appear there, whether plot-practical, symbolic, or otherwise?
White is usually associated with purity, but also with rare and enchanted beasts. The association of the black stag and white deer with hunting horns may mean that the elves are on the hunt, or it may mean that they are part of an elvish enchantment, like the stream.
Tolkien offers one reason, right in the book, that if the dwarves had only known it, seeing these deer would have told them that in fact they had begun to approach the limit of the forest. However, they did not know enough about the forest to understand that.
8. Why do these deer signify that they fast approach the far edge of Mirkwood?
Because they seem to be enchanted creatures, associated with the elves who live at the far edge of Mirkwood.
9. What might it signify, to have glimpsed a glimmer of hope and not recognized it for what it is?
Lack of courage and hope and lack of knowledge needed to interpret the signs given them.
How might their actions in response fit in with your answer?
They succumb to despair.
10. Who enchanted the creek, anyway? The Necromancer? The elves? Or was it always thus? Other ideas? Any thoughts on motivation? Or do you suppose that it just happened?
The elves. Again, note that Bilbo and Thorin had similar reactions when they crashed the Elvish feast.
11. Any other thoughts on this passage?
There's an implication that Bombur's fatness is the outer sign of an inner moral failing, and goes with his grumbling and whining and clumsiness.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 12 2009, 2:56am
Post #3 of 33
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I particularly like the idea of this being Bilbo's midlife crisis. I hadn't thought it through before, but I think you're right.
Interesting idea about Bombur's fatness as an outward sign. In Tolkien's day it was a lot harder to get fat. One had to be tricky about getting other people to do all of your labors for you, and self-indulgent about eating more than your fair share. (Today one gets fat by working long hours at a desk and sacrificing home-cooked meals for junkfood.) So, being a whiner might mean that he habitually manipulated other people into taking on exertions that were rightfully his.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Beren IV
Mithlond
May 12 2009, 5:43am
Post #4 of 33
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Certainly the Elves use other, similar magic later on (and yes, it's called "magic"!). But I'm not sure the stream itself was Elvish, I had never thought of it that way. I had instead envisioned it as a danger, perhaps a Necromancer-done thing, although now thinking about it I would imagine Sauron to make something nastier (read: deadlier).
Has anybody else asked this question?
The paleobotanist is back!
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Twit
Menegroth
May 12 2009, 10:08am
Post #5 of 33
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any other posts yet, sorry.
2. Taking into consideration whatever you answered before about the overall significance of Mirkwood Forest, how does the Enchanted Stream fit into that picture?
It seems as though the stream could be a protective device, you are so thirsty that by the time you reach it, you'll drink anything. It could almost be a bit like a moat.
3. How his status has changed! What has caused this change? How do you think it affects Bilbo to now be part of a team? Do you think he might ever have been part of a team before? Do you think he has noticed the transition, or has it been too gradual for comment? What does it say about who he is becoming?
I think this will give him the confidence to be able to say his part in the future, he is now an important part, the eyes and the ears of the team.
4. Why does Thorin choose himself, Bilbo, Fili and Kili to cross over first?
Thorin is the leader, so he will take Bilbo, perhaps in case there is trouble on the other side, which would explain why he's also taken Fili and Kili.
5. However, if you do see symbolic meaning in the presence of this deer, by all means share! And what additional practical role might the appearance of the deer play in this story?
It shows there are good creatures alive in the Forest, it is like a sign of hope.
6. Thorin takes a shot at the black deer, and it connects, but the deer falls out of their reach. How many different things might this scene say about Thorin, positive and/or negative?
He has quick reactions and is a sure shot, how-ever killing a deer is always somehow wrong. Perhaps that thought stems from the tradition of not killing the King's deer, although it possibly means he shouldn't be greedy and should look to his people first.
7. Why are these deer white, and the other black? How many different reasons might you come up with as to why they appear there, whether plot-practical, symbolic, or otherwise?
Beorn had mostly snow white animals, with one black one, perhaps it is connected. The black hart (heart) caused them problems, depsite being a sign of hope, they still needed to carry on striving to get through the trees, but the snowy white ones properly represent hope, pure and simple. The fact that they couldn't hit these deer perhaps represents the idea that you can't kill hope.
8. Why do these deer signify that they fast approach the far edge of Mirkwood?
They graze, there must be grass, or young leaves low enough to eat, therefore an end to the dark of the forest.
9. What might it signify, to have glimpsed a glimmer of hope and not recognized it for what it is? How might their actions in response fit in with your answer?
Typical Dwarves, thinking of their stomachs and not the bigger picture.
10. Who enchanted the creek, anyway? The Necromancer? The elves? Or was it always thus? Other ideas? Any thoughts on motivation? Or do you suppose that it just happened?
I think perhaps the Elves, as protection. (Bear in mind I haven't re-read the rest of the book yet, so be gentle)
11. Any other thoughts on this passage?
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sador
Gondolin
May 12 2009, 11:43am
Post #6 of 33
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1. Can anyone think of similar enchanted waters in folklore? Other novels? Movies? Comic books? Myths? Family tales?
It is a very familiar motive.
Can't think of any examples just now - except for the Nimrodel, and Celebrant, which both cross into regions with more powerful elvish magic.
2. Taking into consideration whatever you answered before about the overall significance of Mirkwood Forest, how does the Enchanted Stream fit into that picture?
I did think of it as Elvish, and in a way it seemed to signify the border of the Elves's power as opposed to the Necromancer's.
But then we're stuck with the spiders.
3. How his status has changed! What has caused this change?
He saw the boat first.
How do you think it affects Bilbo to now be part of a team?
He's glad to be of use. Up to now, he was accepted as a personal favour to Gandalf. And the previous times he proved useful are not likely to be remembered - nobody (not even Gandalf) remembered his finding William's key, and his yell at the mountain-crossing is more likely to be sneered upon.
Do you think he might ever have been part of a team before? Do you think he has noticed the transition, or has it been too gradual for comment? What does it say about who he is becoming?
He is not quite a part of the team even now (or later); Bilbo still considers himself a free agent, and so do the dwarves.
4. Why does Thorin choose himself, Bilbo, Fili and Kili to cross over first?
Bilbo and Fili as a reward, and Kili because he goes with Fili.
But note that Thorin goes first, in what is likely to be a risky enterprise. He is not the kind of coach-general some have portrayed him as!
Also note that Dwalin goes last, with Bombur. Does that mean anything?
5. However, if you do see symbolic meaning in the presence of this deer, by all means share! And what additional practical role might the appearance of the deer play in this story?
"Come on in, deer boy, have a cigar..."
Err' what was I saying?
6. Thorin takes a shot at the black deer, and it connects, but the deer falls out of their reach. How many different things might this scene say about Thorin, positive and/or negative?
Just think how good he eyes were a hundred years ago!
Also, it shows that in 'The Gathering of the Clouds', when he shot at the middle of the messenger's shield, it wasn't a miss.
7. Why are these deer white, and the other black?
They are on the elvish side of the River.
How many different reasons might you come up with as to why they appear there, whether plot-practical, symbolic, or otherwise?
Thirty-seven. But I won't weary you with all of them.
But I note that these seem to be the first animals who do not seem afraid of the dwarves - and wrongly! So could it be a symbol of temptation? Or of a kind of revelation, which silly people try to prevert into gratifying their carnal desires rather than follow them to salvation?
8. Why do these deer signify that they fast approach the far edge of Mirkwood?
I never thought it were the deer; I assumed it was the hunt.
They are getting near the dwellings of the elves.
9. What might it signify, to have glimpsed a glimmer of hope and not recognized it for what it is? How might their actions in response fit in with your answer?
I think I've answered this above.
10. Who enchanted the creek, anyway? The Necromancer? The elves? Or was it always thus? Other ideas? Any thoughts on motivation? Or do you suppose that it just happened?
The elves.
11. Any other thoughts on this passage?
Where is NEB? Does he plan on another 48-hours session when we end this discussion, answering all of the questions?
"Don't start grumbling against orders, or something bad will happen to you." - Thorin
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Curious
Gondolin
May 12 2009, 2:02pm
Post #7 of 33
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Yes, I can't imagine the Necromancer sending delightful dreams.
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And the fact that Bilbo and Thorin experience the same dreams when they interrupt the elves clinches it in my estimation. The stream marks the boundary of Elvish lands, and protects those lands with an Elvish enchantment.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 12 2009, 3:20pm
Post #9 of 33
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Those are good answers, some of which I hadn't thought of.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 12 2009, 3:26pm
Post #10 of 33
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Thanks for the laugh!
Good point about Thorin hitting the shield, by the way! I hadn't thought of that.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
May 12 2009, 5:25pm
Post #11 of 33
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1. Can anyone think of similar enchanted waters in folklore? Other novels? Movies? Comic books? Myths? Family tales?
The Withywindle from FOTR comes to mind. Also, Elrond has enchanted the river at the Fords of Bruinen so that it will flood under his command. Ossë commands (possibly enchants) stormy seas in The Sil.
Our heroes show wonderful teamwork in figuring out how to cross the river, setting each person to the task best suited to them (almost as though they have read Miyamoto Musashi’s classic strategy text, “The Book of Five Rings”–anyone who has read this feel free to comment.)
I haven’t read that, but your question did remind me at first of the concept of comparative advantage from Economics 101. Gee, thanks, Dreamdeer. :o)~ Now I have to infect everyone with it:
http://www.econlib.org/library/Topics/Details/comparativeadvantage.html
Actually, it’s more strictly absolute advantage, now that I refresh my memory. Fortunately, it’s also the easier of the two concepts to understand. :o)
This is what comes of having a business major on the boards. ;o)~
3. How his status has changed! What has caused this change? How do you think it affects Bilbo to now be part of a team? Do you think he might ever have been part of a team before? Do you think he has noticed the transition, or has it been too gradual for comment? What does it say about who he is becoming?
He has proved himself useful (and, as on most teams, the Dwarves will take his continuous usefulness for granted and demand it, going forward). He has gradually formed a reciprocal attachment to the Dwarves. His accomplishments help to soothe his vanity in the face of the Dwarves’ previous skepticism while also giving him a valid sense of pride and growing self-assurance as the story progresses.
4. Why does Thorin choose himself, Bilbo, Fili and Kili to cross over first?
Bilbo, Fili (or was it Kili?), and Thorin have been the most useful in this situation so far. The other twin seems to be inseparable and probably shares similar talents with his brother.
5. …And what additional practical role might the appearance of the deer play in this story?
They’re the first large mammals we’ve knowingly encountered in the forest so far. They also appear and behave as they do in the mundane world, unlike freakishly huge, talking spiders and creatures whose huge eyes glow at night. Clearly, after days of alien monotony, things are changing.
6. Thorin takes a shot at the black deer, and it connects, but the deer falls out of their reach. How many different things might this scene say about Thorin, positive and/or negative?
He’s capable under pressure and practical. I wonder why the Dwarves didn’t retrieve the deer. After Bombur fell in, I suppose they considered crossing the river again too dangerous.
7. Why are these deer white, and the other black? How many different reasons might you come up with as to why they appear there, whether plot-practical, symbolic, or otherwise?
Brown deer seem more common, though I am no expert, so there must some reason Tolkien chose black and white. As for symbolism, Tolkien maintains his ambiguity here concerning the meaning he assigns to black and white. Fortunately for him, both colors are neutral and fit in with the monochromatic aesthetic of the forest.
I imagine they’re there because they’re fleeing the hunting horns of the Elves.
8. Why do these deer signify that they fast approach the far edge of Mirkwood?
They’re the first large mammals we’ve seen since the Dwarves entered Mirkwood. They require wholesome water which must mean an end of the forest.
9. What might it signify, to have glimpsed a glimmer of hope and not recognized it for what it is? How might their actions in response fit in with your answer?
They’re weary, and the monotony has dulled their minds. They’re probably unable to think of much else than their hunger and have become pessimistic.
10. Who enchanted the creek, anyway? The Necromancer? The elves? Or was it always thus? Other ideas? Any thoughts on motivation? Or do you suppose that it just happened?
I think it’s just the nature of the river, one of those mysterious phenomena of Middle-earth. Like I said above, it reminds me of the Withywindle and therefore Old Man Willow who isn’t dangerous because of Sauron or any other supernatural power except maybe the corrupting influence of Morgoth that pervades everything. Unlike Old Man Willow, though, this river doesn’t seem actively malicious or even sentient. I don’t see it as motivated to do anything.
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
May 12 2009, 5:56pm
Post #12 of 33
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I immediately thought of the Forbidden Fountain in the Oz books
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which is filled with the Water of Oblivion. This first showed up in "The Emerald City of Oz", published in 1910.
Spoiler: Glinda used this to good effect when the Nome King built a tunnel under the Deadly Desert to invade the Emerald City. Glinda used magic to fill the tunnel with dust, so that when the Nomes and their evil allies the Whimseys, Phanfasms and Growleywogs burst out into the palace gardens, they were so thirsty they made straight for the fountain, drank from it, and forgot their evil ways.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on May 12 2009, 5:58pm)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 12 2009, 6:00pm
Post #13 of 33
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Once again we see that no matter what background a person has, it will make itself useful in the Reading Room.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 12 2009, 6:02pm
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...to have an expert on Oz show up. Thank you, Aunt Dora!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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batik
Dor-Lomin
May 13 2009, 3:20am
Post #15 of 33
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Well I did read this and thought it of interest...
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5. However, if you do see symbolic meaning in the presence of this deer, by all means share! And what additional practical role might the appearance of the deer play in this story?
The theme of the hunt uses animals to pass to and from the realm of magic and the gods in Celtic and Welsh mythology. For example, during the excitement of the hunt, the chosen party pursues an unusually fleet of foot, magical prey out of the world of the mortals and into a place of magic. Other ways to enter the other world are by charm, like the song from magical birds (Ford, 71), or by spell, like the mist descending over land (Ford, 77). Wells, springs, rivers, and earthen mounds are some of the magical places that border with or co-exist in the other world. In these places, magic is much more prevalent and sometimes even time passes differently there. The magical animals are noteworthy in appearance and get the attention of the hunter by their supernatural shape, color, speed, and power. There are many other examples of the pursuit of supernatural beasts throughout Celtic and Welsh mythology with the common characteristic being their unnatural, white color. While pursuing a large, white deer, King Arthur arrives at Sir Pellinore's well, a magical site, without his hunting party or his horse (Baines, 37). Pryderi and Manawydan pursue a "gleaming white boar" (Ford, 80) which leads them and their dogs to a magical trap. The bright white animals from the other world sometimes have bright, glowing, red ears, but they are not a natural type of white or red. Prince Pwyll encounters king Arawn's dogs from the other world. The dogs appear with "glittering bright white" and red ears that glitter as brightly as their white bodies (Ford, 37). Rhiannon arrives from the other world on her white horse at an earthen mound (Ford, 42-45). Animal Symbolism in Celtic Mythology
A paper for Religion 375 at the University of Michigan
by Lars Noodén, 22 November 1992
As for me, I enjoy the way Tolkien draws attention to the deer--more creatures which are familiar to the audience (like bear, dogs, etc.) then adds a bit of *magic* to them.
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sador
Gondolin
May 13 2009, 6:22am
Post #16 of 33
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I've posted this link on the previous thread, but it is apt here.
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Especially questions 4-9.
I think Dreamdeer, for one, will like it.
"Don't start grumbling against orders, or something bad will happen to you." - Thorin
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 13 2009, 3:58pm
Post #17 of 33
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And now you remind me of the whole Wild Hunt theme throughout folklore, often involving pursuing a deer (although the Southwestern American version involves pursuing stampeding cattle) through the sky, sometimes as a damnation, always hungering, always exhausted, never catching the prey.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 13 2009, 4:03pm
Post #18 of 33
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If the Necromancer stayed long enough, would Mirkwood have eventually deteriorated to such scrub and brambles?
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
May 13 2009, 4:42pm
Post #19 of 33
(1871 views)
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"Bambi. Quick! The thicket! Faster! Faster, Bambi! Don't look back! Keep running! Keep running!"
….
"Mother? Mother?”
”Your mother can't be with you anymore. Come my son.”
-Bambi (1942)
1. Can anyone think of similar enchanted waters in folklore?
Egyptians (and Burton and Speke) and the Nile, Moses and the Red Sea, Washington Irving and the Hudson River, Mark Twain and the Mississippi River.
Other novels?
Willy Wonka and his river of chocolate.
Movies?
The river that separates Winter from Spring in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.
Comic books?
The river that separates the day of Metropolis from the night of Gotham City.
Myths?
Styx, Lethe, and Eridanos, the three rivers of Hades.
Family tales?
The Red River that separates Texas from Oklahoma.
2. Taking into consideration whatever you answered before about the overall significance of Mirkwood Forest, how does the Enchanted Stream fit into that picture?
It puts people (and animals and trees) into a sleepy stupor so they can be corrupted. Sort of like the Congressional Record.
3. How his status has changed! What has caused this change?
Gandalf leaving. There’s now a leadership vacuum and he’s the only one around. It’s interesting that Jackson explores this same dynamic with Aragorn after Gandalf’s fall in FOTR.
How do you think it affects Bilbo to now be part of a team?
He seems to be irritated that everyone thinks he can pull solutions out of his pockets like rabbits out of his hat. Now he knows exactly how Gandalf feels. I think that sympathetic understanding will be a large part of Bilbo's and Gandalf's future friendship.
Do you think he might ever have been part of a team before?
I’m sure he’s been on plenty of committees, but more of the “let’s discuss the problem ad infinitum until it goes away” type rather that the “let’s actually make a decision and do something to solve it” type.
Do you think he has noticed the transition, or has it been too gradual for comment?
I think he considers it just one more inconvenience he has to bear. I’m sure it’s all blurring into one big haze of irritation.
What does it say about who he is becoming?
He’s becoming another Gandalf: “Bilbo the Green, Trickster Extraordinaire!"
(One wonders if Gandalf sadistically relishes thrusting power, responsibility, and leadership on unsuspecting people against their will because that’s exactly what Eru did to him.)
In fact, one can easily imagine 2nd Lieutenant Tolkien feeling similarly thrown in the deep end without floaties, with all the members of his unit looking at him and expecting him to know exactly what to do.
4. Why does Thorin choose himself, Bilbo, Fili and Kili to cross over first?
My copy says “’I shall,’ said Thorin, ‘and you will come with me, and Fili and Balin.’”
Balin is already a war hero, so he’s the fighter. Fili was the one chosen for best eyesight, Thorin is going first because he’s the leader, and Bilbo is going because Thorin wants to keep his luck close to him.
Now, I had in mind all sorts of symbolic research into the possible significance of Deer in this scene, but Tolkien might merely have needed a large animal that leaps creeks to bowl over poor Bombur. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
And sometimes seeing a patronus across a river is quite significant.
5. However, if you do see symbolic meaning in the presence of this deer, by all means share!
The White Hart is an indicator that the boundary of Faerie is near. However, here we have a “snowy white” hind and fawns, and a hart as dark as the hind and fawns were white.
In the folklore of India, when a black hart is chased, it seeks refuge in the Celestial path to Heaven. Which is why it is disastrous for a mortal to pursue it.
And what additional practical role might the appearance of the deer play in this story?
It knocks Bombur in the river.
6. Thorin takes a shot at the black deer, and it connects, but the deer falls out of their reach. How many different things might this scene say about Thorin, positive and/or negative?
He’s a very quick shot. Impressive.
However, wounding an animal and then letting it run off and die a lingering death is pretty despicable. He should have made sure of his shot.
Also, he's so busy shooting the hart that he misses the opportunity to deal with two more important problems: Bombur falling into the river, and the runaway boat.
So it says that Thorin has the leadership ability to make quick decisions, but they aren’t always wise decisions, and often those decisions aren't really the ones that need to be made.
Which is basically true of all capable leaders, good and evil.
While sitting around the slumbering Bombur in a “What’ll we do now?” kind of haze...
I always call it "a brief period of adjustiment to a new reality".
7. Why are these deer white, and the other black?
They’re on different sides of the Enchanted Boundary.
How many different reasons might you come up with as to why they appear there, whether plot-practical, symbolic, or otherwise?
How many do you want?
For example, female deer take their fawns to the edge of the forest so they can graze on the spring grass. (Remember, that's how Bambi's mom got shot.) So if they knew as much as Walt Disney, they'd know they were near the edge of the forest.
8. Why do these deer signify that they fast approach the far edge of Mirkwood?
The deer very explicitly signify the boundary of Faerie, black on one side, white on the other.
In fact, consider the Black Horses of the Ringwraiths and the White Horses of the Ford of Bruinen.
I’ve always said LOTR is The Hobbit writ large.
Which is the problem with making a film of The Hobbit in the same vein as LOTR. It will end up not a prequel, but a pastiche.
9. What might it signify, to have glimpsed a glimmer of hope and not recognized it for what it is?
Blindness of the soul.
How might their actions in response fit in with your answer?
That’s for later chapters, and indeed a later novel!
10. Who enchanted the creek, anyway?
Enchanters. That’s what they do.
The Necromancer?
I’m sure he’s corrupted the enchantment with the mockery of an enchantment. Look at what Saruman did with the Isen.
The elves?
Elves do seem to do that with the local waters. Look at Elrond and the white horses of the Loudwater. I can only imagine what tricks Galadriel taught the Silverlode.
Or was it always thus?
Which came first: The river or the enchantment?
Other ideas?
I’m thinking Gandalf: “May your water be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven lives of Men!
Any thoughts on motivation?
The local Water Daughter rubbed Gandalf’s sore feet, biblically speaking.
Or do you suppose that it just happened?
Nothing “just happens”. “And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.” Whether that unfolding is by the design of a benevolent all knowing merciful God, or a malevolent god of chaos and madness, is entirely something else though.
11. Any other thoughts on this passage?
Nice.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on May 13 2009, 4:49pm)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 13 2009, 4:59pm
Post #20 of 33
(1846 views)
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Thorin, Bilbo, Fili, and Balin! I must have been incredibly tired when I read that part. Balin makes much more sense. We're getting more and more of a picture of the future King of Moria here.
Thank you for all of your court-jester-style thought provocation, as always!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 13 2009, 11:23pm
Post #21 of 33
(1810 views)
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1. Can anyone think of similar enchanted waters in folklore? Other novels? Movies? Comic books? Myths? Family tales?
~~~Other people have hit all of those that I thought of, and others besides.
2. Taking into consideration whatever you answered before about the overall significance of Mirkwood Forest, how does the Enchanted Stream fit into that picture?
~~~I think that the Mirkwood part of Bilbo's psyche came about because he has slept through his life. This is the water that has fed his inner Mirkwood and left it overgrown and strangled, this business of dreaming about adventure rather than taking action.
3. How his status has changed! What has caused this change? How do you think it affects Bilbo to now be part of a team? Do you think he might ever have been part of a team before? Do you think he has noticed the transition, or has it been too gradual for comment? What does it say about who he is becoming?
~~~With the kind of self-centered existence that Bilbo has led, it is hard for me, personally, to picture him working with others. In the first chapter, when he uses a tone that he normally reserves for people asking to borrow money from him, it kind of hints to me that he has not been a generous person, that he hadn't given of himself without carefully checking as to what was in it for him, never mind the fact that he did not actually earn his own wealth. ~~~He has lived alone, not needing anybody. Now he needs the dwarves, on a deep emotional level that makes him want to rescue them even when it might seem to his best interest to abandon them. This need has made him strong. He is becoming a person that one can relate to and depend upon, rather than a mask acting out a role.
4. Why does Thorin choose himself, Bilbo, Fili and Kili to cross over first?
~~~My mistake! Others have answered better, knowing that I asked wrong.
5. However, if you do see symbolic meaning in the presence of this deer, by all means share! And what additional practical role might the appearance of the deer play in this story?
~~~I didn't want to introject my own ideas here, too much, because they might be culturally idiosyncratic, but in my culture the Deer represents sacrifice and love. He gives his life so that the people may eat. Thanks to the deer, we see Bombur go into a deathlike state and his friends taking care of his lifeless-seeming body at great sacrifice to themselves. It is mainly because of his dreams that they later suspect that the fires that they see might be elves rather than trolls (which in this setting might have seemed more likely, especially considering their past experience.) Deer teaches us to think of others besides ourselves, which can have unpredictable rewards down the line.
6. Thorin takes a shot at the black deer, and it connects, but the deer falls out of their reach. How many different things might this scene say about Thorin, positive and/or negative?
~~~First, that he's more alert and intelligent than the rest of them, and sees opportunity where others see disaster--he is a fit leader, if not always knowlegeable about the things outside of dwarfdom. Second, he's a darn good shot. Third, he cares for his people and wants to provide for them. Fourth, on the negative side, he incurs the greatest disgrace that a hunter can know: to wound game and lose it, leaving it to suffer. A curse cannot help but come from such a deed; he himself eventually will die slowly from a wound. Yet perhaps his good intentions mitigates the curse, for the slow death makes it possible for him to reconcile with Bilbo before he dies.
7. Why are these deer white, and the other black? How many different reasons might you come up with as to why they appear there, whether plot-practical, symbolic, or otherwise?
~~~I think of the Yin/Yang symbol, where there is always a spot of black on the white side, and a spot of white on the black side: a reminder that nothing is ever all one or all the other. As for why they are there, others have thought of just about every answer that I could come up with, plus some I didn't.
8. Why do these deer signify that they fast approach the far edge of Mirkwood?
~~~Dense forest deer live on the edges, where they can find the most green things to nibble.
9. What might it signify, to have glimpsed a glimmer of hope and not recognized it for what it is? How might their actions in response fit in with your answer?
~~~It reminds us that even when things seem their darkest, help that we cannot comprehend might be just around the corner. We do not know all of the possibilities in the world, and too often we despair too easily.
10. Who enchanted the creek, anyway? The Necromancer? The elves? Or was it always thus? Other ideas? Any thoughts on motivation? Or do you suppose that it just happened?
~~~I entertained the possibility that the elves drew their magic to enchant travelers to sleep from the stream rather than the other way around, but since reading other people's responses I now prefer the deliberate elvish border interpretation.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Twit
Menegroth
May 14 2009, 10:07am
Post #22 of 33
(1838 views)
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The fountain of youth? Does that count?
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acheron
Mithlond
May 14 2009, 12:07pm
Post #23 of 33
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The most obvious parallel is Lethe, the river of forgetfulness (or even "oblivion") in the underworld in Greek myth. Souls drank from the Lethe to forget the cares of their mortal life.
There were other rivers in the Greek underworld, the most well-known today being the Styx, but also, I am obliged to point out, the river Acheron. While the mythology is notoriously inconsistent, most of the main ancient sources have the Acheron at the border of the underworld, which everyone had to be ferried across after dying. (Today that myth is more associated with the Styx than with the Acheron, but your Homer, your Virgil, etc., all have it as the Acheron, and when Dante adapted the Greek myths for his Christian Hell he used Acheron as well.)
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 14 2009, 1:29pm
Post #24 of 33
(1800 views)
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So, does this particular stream mark the entry or the exit to the land of death?
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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simplyaven
Hithlum
May 15 2009, 2:48am
Post #25 of 33
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There was no exit except for those who were allowed by the god Hades himself to take the same way back (like Orpheus). But it was the same way crossing Acheron in the boat of Charon (without paying this time of course), passing Cerberus, etc. In fact in Argonautica it is Acheron which brings forgetfullness but can not affect Aethalides who was granted with "memory of all things" by Hermes himself.
Editing to mention that Acheron river still exists today and, believe it or not, its reputation hasn't changed much. It's still the way to hades and his kingdom.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on April 30th on the Main board for the renewed thread!
Middle earth recipes archive
My rambling on food, cooking, wine and other life pleasures
I believe
(This post was edited by simplyaven on May 15 2009, 2:51am)
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