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Elven
Doriath
May 8 2009, 1:08pm
Post #1 of 28
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Queer Lodgings - Part Five
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Hi tornsibs  ... off we go once more to the end of the chapter ...
Gandalf, Thorin and Company and Mr Baggins are now on the road and heading north to north-west to the forest gate after leaving Beorns house. On advice from Beorn they had decided not to go South, due to the path being used by Goblins and being basically impassable at the eastern end.
Beorn advices them to ride fast because if the Goblins do decide to make their raid and come south of Mirkwood and skirt the forest north, the company maybe cut off.
So far they are one day into the journey and the going has been good. They make song. But in the evening they make camp, and set guard. Their dreams filled with the howl of hunting wolves and goblin cries.
Tolkien is moving them fast across the plain to get them to the gate of Mirkwood Forest. For the next two days there is no mention of trouble as the company rides to its destination. Only mentions the land and the weather, birds, flowers, the herd of red deer and the harts. The company rode through the third night to try and reach the gate by the fourth day. Though Bilbo thought he saw a shadowy form of a bear prowling in the same direction – but was told to hush and take no notice, by Gandalf.
Why does Bilbo have to hush up about seeing the bear?
On the fourth days ride they could see the forest looming ahead. By the afternoon they had reached the eaves of Mirkwood Forest.
“Well here is Mirkwood!” “The greatest of the Forests of the Northern world. I hope you like the look of it.”
Do you think Gandalf is being sarcastic with his last statement?
Now the ponies must be returned! To the grumbling of the dwarves, Gandalf alerts them that Beorn is near – he had been guarding and guiding the company as they made their way to the gate.
But the dwarves learn that Gandalf is not returning his horse – he is riding it back – and the time has come, he is leaving them, as he said he would, which he mentioned at the Carrock.
But then Gandalf mentions he has business to attend to South – so is he riding South and then back to Beorn’s to return his horse?
When do you think Gandalf had time to discuss this plan of his with Beorn?
Gandalf says he may meet them again, depending on their luck, courage and sense. He also mentions that is why he is sending Mr Baggins with them.
So does Gandalf see luck, courage and sense in Mr Baggins – are these references to describe qualities the dwarves lack and that’s why he has chosen Bilbo, as a quality filler?
In the morning the dwarves prepared to go into the forest. They released the ponies – who as Bilbo recalled thought he saw a bear follow them as they trotted off home.
Gandalf reminds the company not to stray from the track – or they may never been seen again.
Bilbo asks if there is another way around the forest they could take instead.
Gandalf mentions the dangers that they would face if they took the Northern path – goblins, hobgoblins and orcs (our first and only introduction to the word orc – a name applied to the various sea-beasts of the dolphin order). If they went South they would be in the lands of the Necromancer. “ ... and even you, Bilbo, won’t need me to tell you tales of that black sorcerer. I don’t advise you to go anywhere near the places overlooked by his dark tower!”
Here in this mention of the Necromancer, we see the intention of Gandalf – but this is not clear at the time. In other words, Gandalf is going that way, but he will not take the dwarves with him. They have a better chance through the forest than to scale around it. He is steering them into it and trying to keep them on their course and out of his business. After all he has mentioned that this is not his adventure.
In the Annotated Hobbit – (12) p.188 – Tolkien said in a letter .. about the mention of the Necromancer .. his function was ...
“Hardly more than to provide a reason for Gandalf going away and leaving Bilbo and the dwarves to fend for themselves, which was necessary for the tale” (letters #257)
At the time of writing the Hobbit, had Tolkien developed a story about where Gandalf had gone after he left the company, and what he was up to?
In 25 words or less, describe what Gandalf did after he left the company at this point.
He does offer much moral support though .. “ ... keep your spirits up, hope for the best, and with a tremendous amount of luck you may come out one day and see the Long Marshes lying below you, and beyond them, high in the East, the Lonely Mountain where dear old Smaug lives, though I hope he is not expecting you.”
Though Thorin doesn’t think so, and bids Gandalf to be off without any more talk.
So Gandalf rode off into the West, but could not resist the temptation to yell to them “Good-bye! Be good, take care of yourselves – and DONT LEAVE THE PATH!”
The Dwarves were dismayed although they bid him “O good-bye and go away” – they were not happy at losing Gandalf before they went into the forest.
“They now began the most dangerous part of the journey” ... ‘they turned from the light that lay on the lands outside and plunged into the forest’.
Cheers
Elven x
Swishtail.
Tolkien was a Capricorn!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn!!
Avatar: Liberace - The other Lord of the Rings.
Quote of The Week: The thing is I always write in the morning, and I know that if I go to the Net I won’t write ... you can start in the most scholarly website and end up at Paris Hilton dot com .. GdT
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Curious
Gondolin
May 8 2009, 2:28pm
Post #2 of 28
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On advice from Beorn they had decided not to go South, due to the path being used by Goblins and being basically impassable at the eastern end.
Okay, now I'm confused. I thought during our last reading we established that the path the party did take was impassable at the eastern end, but now I am wondering if I confused it with the road they did not take. It matters, because if the path is impassable at the eastern end then sticking to the path was bad advice.
Mirkwood is a very strange forest. What is unwholesome about the flora and fauna in the forest? What does unwholesome mean? Poison? Evil? Magical? What makes the path safe, and leaving the path unsafe? Who maintains the path, and why don't they maintain the road? How does Beorn know about any of this? Why doesn't he know or tell more, like the exact nature of the magic stream, or the fact that there are elves at the other end of the path, or the exact mileage so they can estimate their progress? And why does the forest begin so abruptly, far from the river, then block out the sun completely?
I don't really have good answers to these questions, although I could try to make something up. I don't think Tolkien answers them in The Hobbit, although perhaps I have forgotten answers yet to come. All we know is that both Beorn and Gandalf have insisted that the party stick to the path, avoid the magic stream in the middle of the forest, and live off the food and water they bring with them into the forest.
That must be lots of water, by the way, and must weigh a great deal. Having backpacked, I cannot imagine carrying all my water with me for even a week-long trip. The party is heading into a forest, but must pack as if they are heading through a desert.
Why does Bilbo have to hush up about seeing the bear?
If Beorn wants to spy on them that is his business, and Gandalf does not want to draw attention to it.
Do you think Gandalf is being sarcastic with his last statement?
Yes.
But then Gandalf mentions he has business to attend to South – so is he riding South and then back to Beorn’s to return his horse?
No, he is riding back south to Beorn's house with the ponies, then further south to do his business. Beorn's house is on the way -- it's accompanying the party to the edge of Mirkwood that has taken Gandalf out of his way.
When do you think Gandalf had time to discuss this plan of his with Beorn?
There was plenty of time to do so during the preparations that morning.
So does Gandalf see luck, courage and sense in Mr Baggins – are these references to describe qualities the dwarves lack and that’s why he has chosen Bilbo, as a quality filler?
Mostly Bilbo was picked for luck -- he is lucky number 14, after all. But he will need his courage and sense to make that luck work for him. The whole party will lose their courage and sense before they reach the end of the path, but fortunately they will not lose their luck (Bilbo), and with Bilbo's help they will regain their courage and sense.
At the time of writing the Hobbit, had Tolkien developed a story about where Gandalf had gone after he left the company, and what he was up to?
Yes, but not in nearly the detail we find in LotR or later writings. Gandalf does offer an explanation before the end of The Hobbit, though.
In 25 words or less, describe what Gandalf did after he left the company at this point.
"Gandalf had been to a great council of the white wizards [who had] driven the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood."
The Hobbit, "The Last Stage."
He does offer much moral support though .. " ... keep your spirits up, hope for the best, and with a tremendous amount of luck you may come out one day and see the Long Marshes lying below you, and beyond them, high in the East, the Lonely Mountain where dear old Smaug lives, though I hope he is not expecting you."
Gandalf seems to find the situation quite amusing, as he did when he first sent Bilbo on the adventure. Either Gandalf is tremendously callous to the danger facing the party, or he has much more confidence in the party's luck than they do -- although he still seems callous to their feelings. This is Gandalf as Trickster once again, leaving them to their danger with a laugh. I don't blame Thorin for taking offense.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
May 8 2009, 3:35pm
Post #3 of 28
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"Thorin wouldn't have gotten very far without Bilbo."
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Frodo read the letter to himself, and then passed it to Pippin and Sam. 'Really old Butterbur has made a mess of things!' he said. 'He deserves roasting. If I had got this at once, we might all have been safe in Rivendell by now. But what can have happened to Gandalf? He writes as if he was going into great danger.'
'He has been doing that for many years,' said Strider.
-Strider
Why does Bilbo have to hush up about seeing the bear?
He wants the Dwarves to keep up their guard. With goblins and wargs in pursuit It might be disastrous if they relaxed their guard and assumed every glimpse of fleeting form and sound of footsteps was Beorn, especially when Beorn leaves.
Plus I’m struck with the parallel of the glimpses of Gollum that Frodo had in the woods approaching Lothlorien.
On the fourth days ride they could see the forest looming ahead. By the afternoon they had reached the eaves of Mirkwood Forest.
“Well here is Mirkwood!” “The greatest of the Forests of the Northern world. I hope you like the look of it.”
Do you think Gandalf is being sarcastic with his last statement?
Yeah. In fact a full quote I’ve heard elsewhere in other circumstances was “I hope you like the look of it cause you’ll be seeing it for a very long time.”
Now the ponies must be returned! To the grumbling of the dwarves, Gandalf alerts them that Beorn is near – he had been guarding and guiding the company as they made their way to the gate.
But the dwarves learn that Gandalf is not returning his horse – he is riding it back – and the time has come, he is leaving them, as he said he would, which he mentioned at the Carrock.
But then Gandalf mentions he has business to attend to South – so is he riding South and then back to Beorn’s to return his horse?
He’s probably stealing the horse. Like he did with Shadowfax.
When do you think Gandalf had time to discuss this plan of his with Beorn?
Just about any time. Like between the bear dances at night.
Tolkien’s characters always discuss things “far into the night”. Ah, to be a fly on the wall!
Gandalf says he may meet them again, depending on their luck, courage and sense. He also mentions that is why he is sending Mr Baggins with them.
So does Gandalf see luck, courage and sense in Mr Baggins – are these references to describe qualities the dwarves lack and that’s why he has chosen Bilbo, as a quality filler?
Bilbo is the lucky number, and has good old fashioned hobbit sense. In some ways Bilbo is Sam to the Dwaves’ Frodo.
“Thorin and Company wouldn’t have gotten very far without Bilbo.”
Gandalf reminds the company not to stray from the track – or they may never been seen again.
Bilbo asks if there is another way around the forest they could take instead.
Gandalf mentions the dangers that they would face if they took the Northern path – goblins, hobgoblins and orcs (our first and only introduction to the word orc – a name applied to the various sea-beasts of the dolphin order). If they went South they would be in the lands of the Necromancer. “ ... and even you, Bilbo, won’t need me to tell you tales of that black sorcerer. I don’t advise you to go anywhere near the places overlooked by his dark tower!”
Just as in LOTR, it’s impossible to get where they’re going without having to make detours through extremely dangeours places; Weathertop, Moria, Fangorn, Cirith Ungol, The Paths of the Dead.
Here in this mention of the Necromancer, we see the intention of Gandalf – but this is not clear at the time. In other words, Gandalf is going that way, but he will not take the dwarves with him. They have a better chance through the forest than to scale around it. He is steering them into it and trying to keep them on their course and out of his business. After all he has mentioned that this is not his adventure.
In the Annotated Hobbit – (12) p.188 – Tolkien said in a letter .. about the mention of the Necromancer .. his function was ...
“Hardly more than to provide a reason for Gandalf going away and leaving Bilbo and the dwarves to fend for themselves, which was necessary for the tale” (letters #257)
Basically the exact same reason he killed off Gandalf in Moria.
An interesting question: What if Tolkien had decided to kill off Gandalf in The Hobbit to solve the “over-powered character” problem? Would Radagast have taken over in LOTR, or would Gandalf had returned in a lighter color like "Gandalf the Beige"?
At the time of writing the Hobbit, had Tolkien developed a story about where Gandalf had gone after he left the company, and what he was up to?
I doubt it.
In 25 words or less, describe what Gandalf did after he left the company at this point.
Went to see a man about a dog.
He does offer much moral support though .. “ ... keep your spirits up, hope for the best, and with a tremendous amount of luck you may come out one day and see the Long Marshes lying below you, and beyond them, high in the East, the Lonely Mountain where dear old Smaug lives, though I hope he is not expecting you.”
“There never was much hope,” he answered. “Just a fool's hope…”
Though Thorin doesn’t think so, and bids Gandalf to be off without any more talk.
So Gandalf rode off into the West, but could not resist the temptation to yell to them “Good-bye! Be good, take care of yourselves – and DONT LEAVE THE PATH!”
Gandalf’s advice usually goes unheeded: “Do NOT use It again, not far any reason whatever! Do not travel by night!”
Perhaps Bilbo is Strider to the Dwarves’ Frodo? They do initially view Bilbo dubiously as foul and not fair…
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 8 2009, 4:40pm
Post #4 of 28
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Good point about Bilbo being the lucky number member of the party, and about his luck helping the dwarves regain their courage and sense. I would slightly disagree on one point. Although the dwarves abound in courage, they have never shown much sense throughout the endeavor. Bilbo is the only sensible one in the party, once Gandalf leaves, even if he does get confused when half-asleep, before breakfast, about suspecting that a goblin-hating werebear would betray them to goblins. And when all the rest of the party falls to spiders, they all must depend on his courage alone.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
May 8 2009, 5:43pm
Post #5 of 28
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I think Bilbo's suspicions of Beorn were quite sensible, but
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blurting them out the way he did was not sensible. At that point Beorn does not entirely trust the party, and Gandalf does not entirely trust Beorn -- but they don't blurt out what they think. And Beorn's animals are listening.
I'll agree that the dwarves don't show much sense. Bilbo is learning some sense -- slowly.
(This post was edited by Curious on May 8 2009, 5:45pm)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
May 9 2009, 8:47am
Post #6 of 28
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Yes, Gandalf did yell out to the party not to leave the path. However, in the end they had to as the path had been flooded in the eastern edge of the forest. That's part of the trouble of travelling in the wild at the time, even a wise Wizard like Gandalf didn't know everything and he was unaware that the rivers around the Elven-king's realm had flooded somewhat!
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Curious
Gondolin
May 9 2009, 11:05am
Post #8 of 28
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I did not think you made an error. The text does say that the road was impassable, so I'm trying to figure out where I got the idea that the path was impassable at the eastern end as well. I think it is in future chapters, and I shall keep my eyes open.
By the way, great job this week. Thanks for leading.
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batik
Dor-Lomin
May 9 2009, 5:49pm
Post #9 of 28
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how about those twice-baked cakes?
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"...on a little of which they could march far." ???
Why does Bilbo have to hush up about seeing the bear?
To keep others from knowing that Beorn is nearby...maybe these others are the Dwarves as Darkstone offered..maybe there are Warg/goblin spies trailing them, too...maybe Gandalf doesn't want these spies to become aware that they are being spied upon by Beorn.
So does Gandalf see luck, courage and sense in Mr Baggins – are these references to describe qualities the dwarves lack and that’s why he has chosen Bilbo, as a quality filler?
Well, he certainly seems to imply that the Dwarves lack something. His suggestion that Thorin and Co. "Think of the treasure at the end..." implies that *this* thought will motivate them.
Thanks for leading this week's discussion, Elven. Enjoyed.
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Elven
Doriath
May 9 2009, 9:08pm
Post #10 of 28
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Ah, maybe it was this part I was refering too, because I remember not being able to source it in the post but remember reading it ...
By his advice they were no longer making for the main forest road.
Had they followed the pass, their path would have led them down a stream from the mountains that joined the great river miles south of the Carrock.
At that point there was a deep ford they might have passed, if they had still had their ponies, and beyond that a track led to the skirts of the wood and to the enterance of the old forest road.
But Beorn had warned them that that way was now often used by the goblins, while the forest road itself, he had heard, was overgrown and disused at the eastern end and led to impassable marshes where the paths long had been lost.
Just a look at the terrain around the forest ...
Swishtail.
Tolkien was a Capricorn!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn!!
Avatar: Liberace - The other Lord of the Rings.
Quote of The Week: The thing is I always write in the morning, and I know that if I go to the Net I won’t write ... you can start in the most scholarly website and end up at Paris Hilton dot com .. GdT
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squire
Gondolin
May 9 2009, 10:43pm
Post #11 of 28
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No, I believe it is this one...
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As [Bilbo] listened to the talk of the raftmen and pieced together the scraps of information they let fall, he soon realized that ... he had been more lucky than he had guessed. The talk was all of the trade that came and went on the waterways and the growth of the traffic on the river, as the roads out of the East towards Mirkwood vanished or fell into disuse; and of the bickerings of the Lake-men and the Wood-elves about the upkeep of the Forest River and the care of the banks.
Those lands had changed much since the days when dwarves dwelt in the Mountain, days which most people now remembered only as a very shadowy tradition. They had changed even in recent years, and since the last news that Gandalf had had of them. Great floods and rains had swollen the waters that flowed east; and there had been an earthquake or two (which some were inclined to attribute to the dragon-alluding to him chiefly with a curse and an ominous nod in the direction of the Mountain). The marshes and bogs had spread wider and wider on either side. Paths had vanished, and many a rider and wanderer too, if they had tried to find the lost ways across. The elf-road through the wood which the dwarves had followed on the advice of Beorn now came to a doubtful and little used end at the eastern edge of the forest; only the river offered any longer a safe way from the skirts of Mirkwood in the North to the mountain-shadowed plains beyond, and the river was guarded by the Wood-elves’ king.
So you see Bilbo had come in the end by the only road that was any good. (The Hobbit, X, "A Warm Welcome")
The double-whammy of both roads - the old Great Road and then the Elven path - coming to a useless end is a bit much. Sometimes Tolkien gets trapped by his own use of archetypes, and ends up repeating himself within the same story!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
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Elven
Doriath
May 9 2009, 11:10pm
Post #12 of 28
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Ah! Thankyou squire
I was getting a bit confused myself there for a moment so, in hindsight, both are right.
I was trying to keep in the context of the boundaries of the Chapter, and wondered where all the other information was I thought I had overlooked it.
But it just makes it more interesting to see that they were very 'lucky' to come the path that they did - even though it was still a 'dangerous' one.
Thankyou for the clarification squire
Cheers
Elven x
Swishtail.
Tolkien was a Capricorn!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn!!
Avatar: Liberace - The other Lord of the Rings.
Quote of The Week: The thing is I always write in the morning, and I know that if I go to the Net I won’t write ... you can start in the most scholarly website and end up at Paris Hilton dot com .. GdT
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 10 2009, 12:13am
Post #13 of 28
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Wouldn't it seem illogical if the river had only swollen in one part and not the other? Of course one flooding of the same river would block the eastern end of both paths--if there is a fault in the story, it's not that these two motifs repeated, but that Gandalf did not figure out that this would happen.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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May 10 2009, 3:15am
Post #15 of 28
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"Stick to the forest track, keep your peckers up, hope for the best..."
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Should Tolkien have kept his original "peckers" instead of replacing it with "spirits"?
It's interesting that none of the Dwarves, not even sharp-eyed Balin, notices the distant bear! It could be out of politeness that Gandalf warns Bilbo to say nothing about him - pay no attention to that bodyguard over there - or it could be that Beorn might become upset, should he feel he has been recognized in his bear form. Or it could be, that mention of the bear might cause a bit of panic amongst the Dwarves!
Whichever, how often has a child started to point out something, only to hear the parent say "Hush, and don't point!"? Children could relate to this.
"I hope you like the look of [Mirkwood]": sarcasm indeed from our wise Wizard! And he's also saying: you're stuck with this now, no complaining, you knew this would be on the route.
And he himself will check back in at Beorn's, then head south - although when this was originally written, Gandalf stayed at Beorn's for long enough to still be there when...but that's for the next chapter! 
Hm, essay time: after leaving the Dwarves, "Gandalf picked up mead-kegs at Beorn's for a White Council party at Rhosgobel; they got smashed and went on a rowdy rampage to Dol Guldur."
Thank you for a great "first leadership", Elven!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 10 2009, 5:38am
Post #16 of 28
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Forgive me for falling behind in reading; I've had a lot in real life to throw me off, but I'm finally catching up, now. I've just gotten to the point where Gandalf returned, ate two loaves of bread with butter and honey, and drank "at least a quart of mead." Wait one doggone minute! Wondering if I'm mistaken, I looked it up, and mead has the same alcohol content as wine. And he drank nearly a quart of it??? And then gets distracted from his narrative to blow smoke rings? Riiiight.
Or is this considered no big deal in the UK?
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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sador
Gondolin
May 10 2009, 2:16pm
Post #18 of 28
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Why does Bilbo have to hush up about seeing the bear?
So that Gandalf could scold the dwarves for missing it before he leaves.
Or, to put it more nicely, that he could come up with a good proof that Bilbo is actually good, in fact the best of them all.
Do you think Gandalf is being sarcastic with his last statement?
Yes, of course.
But then Gandalf mentions he has business to attend to South – so is he riding South and then back to Beorn’s to return his horse?
No, he should stop at Beorn's first.
You know, Beorn wouldn't have gone all that way merely be he mistrusted the dwarves!
When do you think Gandalf had time to discuss this plan of his with Beorn?
Once again, I don't think he had. He was going back to Beorn's hall, and needed to discuss no plan.
Of course, he might have discussed it, and promised Beorn to send the horse back once he finishes his visit to, err, Rhosgobel - but then bolted North, around the now-safe forest and up the River Running!
Small wonder Beorn came in such a rage to the Mountain! It's a good thing the goblins were around, so he could vent his anger on the poor creatures!
So does Gandalf see luck, courage and sense in Mr Baggins – are these references to describe qualities the dwarves lack and that’s why he has chosen Bilbo, as a quality filler?
Next chapter, the dwarves will notice that he is possessed of luck, wits and a magic Ring.
Assuming 'sense' and 'wit' mean nearly the same thing - does that equate the Ring with courage? 
At the time of writing the Hobbit, had Tolkien developed a story about where Gandalf had gone after he left the company, and what he was up to?
I don't think he really did, not even that his riding South was to Dol Guldur; South was simply the way back to Beorn's hall.
But as I haven't read The Annotated Hobbit, you might know something that I don't.
In 25 words or less, describe what Gandalf did after he left the company at this point.
Now that Lord Shardik's Battle is won
We'll squeeze the girls, and lie in the sun - General Zelda's soldiers, Shardik.
Shardik is a huge, powerful bear, that the Ortelgans believe a manifestation of God.
He does offer much moral support though .. “ ... keep your spirits up, hope for the best, and with a tremendous amount of luck you may come out one day and see the Long Marshes lying below you, and beyond them, high in the East, the Lonely Mountain where dear old Smaug lives, though I hope he is not expecting you.”
Thorin is right. If you can't make yourself useful any more, make yourself scarce!
"It was a good story, that of yours, but I like it still better now I am sure it is true." - Beorn
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 10 2009, 11:57pm
Post #19 of 28
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I have to confess that the only time that I have ever heard the term was by its lewd definition; thank you for supplying me with others. So while, semantically, it still makes a sort of sense, in modern parlance, it's not what you want to put in a children's book! 
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Elven
Doriath
May 11 2009, 12:59am
Post #20 of 28
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they'd all die giggling themselves silly :D //
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Swishtail.
Tolkien was a Capricorn!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn!!
Avatar: Liberace - The other Lord of the Rings.
Quote of The Week: The thing is I always write in the morning, and I know that if I go to the Net I won’t write ... you can start in the most scholarly website and end up at Paris Hilton dot com .. GdT
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dernwyn
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May 11 2009, 1:23am
Post #21 of 28
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*snicker* Okay, I've tormented you enough...
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Heh! Here's the footnote on that phrase, from HoH:
"'Keep your peckers up' - probably the most startling phrase in the entire manuscript, this is not nearly as salacious as it sounds but was common British slang of a slightly earlier period...Like all slang, it's difficult to translate exactly but meant roughly 'keep your courage (spirits, resolution) up'. In short, it's the equivalent of the slightly later but much more familiar 'keep a stiff upper lip'."
I find similarity in the phrase 'feeling peckish', meaning feeling like having a bit to eat, something to "peck" at. So "stiff upper lip" makes sense.
I'll bet Tolkien's kids used that phrase all the time!
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
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May 11 2009, 1:43am
Post #22 of 28
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The precursor to Elvish lembas
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I suspect that what Beorn makes is his own variation of lembas, using the materials at hand. They would not have the "virtue" of lembas, but would be good in their own right, and sufficient for everyday travel needs.
I've wondered if they were a hearty version of lebkuchen.
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Twit
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May 11 2009, 9:41am
Post #23 of 28
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So does Gandalf see luck, courage and sense in Mr Baggins – are these references to describe qualities the dwarves lack and that’s why he has chosen Bilbo, as a quality filler?
He can also see better than the Dwarves and is alot stealthier.
In 25 words or less, describe what Gandalf did after he left the company at this point.
his important business.
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Twit
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May 11 2009, 9:57am
Post #24 of 28
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It wouldn't strike me as meaning anything other than keep your spirits up, a bit like saying 'chin up', yes, pecker can be used in that way, although mainly by people who might actually understand why keeping ones pecker up could be amusing.
I often hear people saying 'keep your pecker up' , so it really is a schoolboy joke of sorts. Actually my mother says it, rather than me, so perhaps it's a generation thing... hmm
I always say 'I'm feeling peckish' though, and ask the children if they are feeling peckish as well.
Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled pepper. Try saying that after a quart of home made mead!
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Twit
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May 11 2009, 11:08am
Post #25 of 28
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'You can't get a quart into a pint pot'
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Is an old saying.
A quart is 2 pints, one quarter of a gallon. I have never seen mead served in wine glasses, a bit like beer (ale) and cider it is some thing of a 'peasants' drink, cheap and easy to make, quite potent and drunk by the pint, in my experience anyway. I have tasted some that was as strong as whiskey, or perhaps sherry (another strong wine) and it almost stripped my teeth bare.
Would 2 pints of mead be a little too much? I don't know, how many glasses of wine would some-one drink during dinner and into the evening with friends, I know I could easily drink that.* I know every man at least around me growing up would think nothing of drinking 2 pints of beer or cider.
So no, a quart of mead isn't a big deal, although I suspect Beorn's mead would be 'special' to say the least.
*DISCLAIMER: I hardly ever drink. Honest.
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