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Morthoron
Hithlum
Apr 24 2009, 5:56am
Post #1 of 15
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Chapter V: Riddles in the Dark --The Competition, Part II
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Ic on wincle gefrægn weaxan nathwæt
þindan ond þunian þecene hebban
on þæt banlease bryd grapode
hygewlonc hondum hrægle theahte
þrindende þing þeodnes dohtor.
I have learned that something grows in the corner,
swells and expands, has a covering;
on that boneless thing a woman grasps
around with hands, with a garment
the lord's daughter covered the swollen thing.
(Answer: bread dough. From the Exeter Book, Riddle no. 43)
Ummm…yes…although Tolkien kens the Anglo-Saxon riddle form, he fortunately ignores the innuendo. But given Tolkien’s expert knowledge of Anglo-Saxon language and poetry, do you find it odd that he doesn’t adopt Anglo-Saxon alliteration or meter for any of his riddles? They are for the most part offered in modern end-rhymed verse. In addition, notice that Gollum's grasp of grammar and vocabulary is far better when he recites riddles than when he speaks naturally. Is this due to Gollum's rote memorization of the verses, or is it an oversight on Tolkien's part?
With the first part of the riddle competition between Bilbo and Gollum stalemated, Gollum begins to recollect better times when he was less lonely, and this puts him in a foul mood; besides, ‘above ground everyday riddles were tiring him’. So he attempts what he thinks is a more nasty riddle (the one which begins “It cannot be seen, cannot be felt…”). Bilbo, being immersed as he was in pitch black guesses “Dark!” and Gollum is denied. But Bilbo comes up with a particularly hard one for Gollum (although Bilbo thought it was easy:
"A box without hinges, key or lid,
Yet golden treasure inside is hid."
The Annotated Hobbit quotes Tolkien from Letter No. 110, who called this riddle “a reduction to a couplet of a longer literary riddle in some ‘Nursery Rhyme’ books.” The Annotated Hobbit gives the riddle in full, and I tracked it down to Mother Goose’s Melodies, published in 1719 in Boston by Thomas Fleet (it also appears in The Oxford Nursery Rhyme Book (1955, Oxford Press). The interesting thing about this riddle is not the answer (an egg), but the poignant (and heartwarming – if such a term could be granted to poor Gollum) manner in which Gollum remembers teaching his grandmother to suck – “Eggses!” Actually, there is a pun involved here that Tolkien was certainly aware of, the insult ‘go teach your granny to suck eggs’, which, according to the Annotated Hobbit, was first recorded in 1785.
Throughout this chapter we get glimpses of Gollum’s past in the Stoor colony along the Anduin River (which, of course, we don’t know yet). Would you find it interesting if someone actually strung together these striking vignettes of Gollum’s former life from The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings? Would it make for an interesting bit of research? Is there just such a piece available, and can someone refer us to it?
Obviously, Gollum is getting hungry, as the next riddle plays upon his favorite dish:
“Alive without breath,
As cold as death;
Never thirsty, ever drinking,
All in mail never clinking.”
There is a longer version of this verse in Lord of the Rings (Chapter 2 of Book V) that adds the following lines:
“Drowns on dry land
thinks an island
is a mountain
thinks a fountain
is a puff of air
So sleek, so fair!
What a joy to meet
We only wish
to catch a fish
so juicy-sweet!”
The pure joy of the latter lines overcomes the ominous sounding first four verses. But the dreary nature of the original riddle is lightened by Gollum’s wonderful exclamation: "Is it nice, my preciousss? Is it juicy? Is it scrumptiously crunchable?" (I note here there is a spelling error in the side-by-side comparison site that Curious alluded to in an earlier thread). Naturally, a fish jumps out of the water and once again spoils Gollum’s chance at dinner.
The next riddle Bilbo comes up with is a variation of the ancient Sphinx Riddle (appearing at the onset of the previous thread, The Competition -- Part I). Gollum doesn’t find this one terribly difficult, but then he unleashes his most devastating riddle (not necessarily related to Monty Python’s most lethal joke):
“This thing all things devours:
Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Grinds hard stones to meal;
Slays king, ruins town,
And beats high mountain down.”
Bilbo is stumped, but once again ‘by pure luck’ as the story goes, he asks for more “Time!” and Gollum is foiled.
Which of the riddles in this chapter is your favorite? Why?
At this juncture in the story we come to the point where Bilbo no longer plays by the Marquis of Queensbury’s Riddling Rules (or whatever the international code of ethics for riddles is called). In a stunning breach of etiquette (and one I am sure riddling judges would card as a foul), Bilbo asks "What have I got in my pocket?" Naturally, Gollum becomes quite upset, as this question in no way constitutes a riddle, but after some tense moments of hemming and hawing Gollum binds himself to rules of the game by accepting the question and demanding three guesses. This is reiterated by Tolkien in the prologue to the Lord of the Rings (section 4, ‘Of the Finding of the Ring’), where he states: “…but all agree that, after accepting it and trying to guess the answer, Gollum was bound to his promise.”
We know that by accepting the question and attempting to answer it Gollum thus accepted the rules, but don’t you feel Gollum was cheated at this point? I’m certain most feel that Gollum was not going to abide by the rules if he lost in any case, yet doesn’t this give him a rationalization for breaking his word, given that he is not stable mentally?
Once Gollum fails at guessing three times, the original version states:
‘But funnily enough he [Bilbo] need not have been alarmed. For one thing Gollum had learned long long ago was never, never, to cheat at the riddle-game, which is a sacred one and of immense antiquity. Also there was the sword. He simply sat and whispered.’
Gollum honorable? By being able to surrender the Ring on a mere whim, does this reduce the pathos and the overall magnitude of the Gollum character? Does it seem likely that a miserable creature living in subterranean darkness for goodness knows how long, bereft of kith and kin, would give up his only piece of treasure?
Read the ongoing serialization of MONTY PYTHON'S 'The HOBBIT', found here:
http://www.fanfiction.net/...y_Pythons_The_Hobbit
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Apr 24 2009, 6:05am)
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Apr 25 2009, 5:13pm
Post #2 of 15
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Ummm…yes…although Tolkien kens the Anglo-Saxon riddle form, he fortunately ignores the innuendo. But given Tolkien’s expert knowledge of Anglo-Saxon language and poetry, do you find it odd that he doesn’t adopt Anglo-Saxon alliteration or meter for any of his riddles? They are for the most part offered in modern end-rhymed verse. In addition, notice that Gollum's grasp of grammar and vocabulary is far better when he recites riddles than when he speaks naturally. Is this due to Gollum's rote memorization of the verses, or is it an oversight on Tolkien's part?
 reading the above riddle reminded me of reading e.e. cummings' poem "she being Brand-" back in high school English.
As for Tolkien's non-use of A-S alliteration or meter...maybe he avoided using this on purpose as to avoid connecting Hobbit folk/lore with this culture (although we will see, at least, the alliteration later in the songs/poems of the Rohirrim).
Gollum speaking with more clarity during the riddling reminds me of someone who stutters while speaking but not while singing. Maybe it's the rythmic quality or just the familiarity?
Throughout this chapter we get glimpses of Gollum’s past in the Stoor colony along the Anduin River (which, of course, we don’t know yet). Would you find it interesting if someone actually strung together these striking vignettes of Gollum’s former life from The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings? Would it make for an interesting bit of research? Is there just such a piece available, and can someone refer us to it?
Of course, film-goers did get a little peek of Gollum's former life. I'm on the fence about *knowing* more. Don't know of any additional Tolkien-based information available.
We know that by accepting the question and attempting to answer it Gollum thus accepted the rules, but don’t you feel Gollum was cheated at this point? I’m certain most feel that Gollum was not going to abide by the rules if he lost in any case, yet doesn’t this give him a rationalization for breaking his word, given that he is not stable mentally?
That's a little tricksey! If he's not mentally stable...how rational would his rationalization be?
(This post was edited by batik on Apr 25 2009, 5:14pm)
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sador
Gondolin
Apr 26 2009, 6:10am
Post #3 of 15
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A few answers, some to the point
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First and foremost, thank you for cooperating with the 10th anniversary celebrations!
I hope your excellent work will not be overlooked because of it.
And now for some answers:
Ummm…yes…although Tolkien kens the Anglo-Saxon riddle form, he fortunately ignores the innuendo. But given Tolkien’s expert knowledge of Anglo-Saxon language and poetry, do you find it odd that he doesn’t adopt Anglo-Saxon alliteration or meter for any of his riddles? They are for the most part offered in modern end-rhymed verse.
I would, had I been an expert of Anglo-Saxon riddles, and had it been Tolkien's intention to translate them. But as far as I understand, this is primarily a children's book, and at the most it hopes to entice people into taking interest in Anglo-Saxon literature, rather than recapturing it faithfully.
As far as that is concerned - I suppose ignoring the meter (which he would probably spell 'metre') and adding rhymes were as fortunate as omitting the innuendo; how many people are interested in this literature today, without being captured first by Tolkien?
In addition, notice that Gollum's grasp of grammar and vocabulary is far better when he recites riddles than when he speaks naturally. Is this due to Gollum's rote memorization of the verses, or is it an oversight on Tolkien's part?
He needs to think about the riddles. It's like my English improves a lot once I start thinking in it.
Which of the riddles in this chapter is your favorite? Why?
I'm not sure I have a particular favourite. Perhaps the 'Time' riddle.
We know that by accepting the question and attempting to answer it Gollum thus accepted the rules, but don’t you feel Gollum was cheated at this point?
I do, but that might be a modern way of looking at it. Note that Bilbo doesn't feel any compunction in telling the dwarves and wizard about his last question (he could have lied by thinking of a real stumper which Gollum wouldn't know) - but he did about the Ring.
I’m certain most feel that Gollum was not going to abide by the rules if he lost in any case, yet doesn’t this give him a rationalization for breaking his word, given that he is not stable mentally?
Of course it does; the fact that later 'authorities' (which Darkstone will no doubt call biased) will declare that once he agreed he had to stick by the rules is of no matter to him, who cannot go and ask them.
And note the other side of this judgement the 'authorities' pronounce - it necessarily means that Bilbo, once he agreed to the terms of the competition, must have let himself been eaten.
By the way - how many people would feel Gollum meant to cheat anyway, if not for Frodo's certanity about this?
And wasn't Frodo rationalising?
Gollum honorable? By being able to surrender the Ring on a mere whim, does this reduce the pathos and the overall magnitude of the Gollum character?
Faramir did.
Does it seem likely that a miserable creature living in subterranean darkness for goodness knows how long, bereft of kith and kin, would give up his only piece of treasure?
Not likely, but possible.
Note that in this chapter, "preciouss" refers to Gollum himself, not to the Ring (which is yet merely the ring) - and if his own self-image is more important to him, he might have.
But even in that case, it is likely that a couple of years later he would have come out and searched for Bilbo, trying to get his treasure back - once he realised how much he depended on it for safety and food.
"Praps ye sits here and chats with it a bitsy, my preciousss" - Gollum
(This post was edited by sador on Apr 26 2009, 6:12am)
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Morthoron
Hithlum
Apr 27 2009, 4:04am
Post #4 of 15
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First and foremost, thank you for cooperating with the 10th anniversary celebrations!
I hope your excellent work will not be overlooked because of it.
*Crickets chirping*
Hmmm....it would seem the neeker-breekers have overrun this section of the reading room. Well, at least it's not being swarmed by midges.
Read the ongoing serialization of MONTY PYTHON'S 'The HOBBIT', found here:
http://www.fanfiction.net/...y_Pythons_The_Hobbit
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 27 2009, 4:20pm
Post #5 of 15
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You think you've got problems...
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...Batik's going to have an even harder time getting anyone to come in from the party. But at least all the flowing champagne might loosen up the imagination! (Not to mention playing intriguing havoc with the facts.)
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 27 2009, 4:39pm
Post #6 of 15
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"A small matter of life and death"
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Evelyn Carnahan: I don't believe in fairy tales and hokum, Mister 0'Connell, but I do believe that one of the most famous books in history is buried out there, The Book Of The Living. It's what first interested me in Egypt as a child. It's why I came here, sort of a life's pursuit.
Richard O'Connell: And the fact that they say it's made out of pure gold, makes no nevermind to you, right?
-The Mummy (1999)
Ummm…yes…although Tolkien kens the Anglo-Saxon riddle form, he fortunately ignores the innuendo.
There’s a lot to ignore. It’s like if the only surviving literature from the 20th century was “Best of Playboy Humor”.
But given Tolkien’s expert knowledge of Anglo-Saxon language and poetry, do you find it odd that he doesn’t adopt Anglo-Saxon alliteration or meter for any of his riddles?
It’s for kids.
They are for the most part offered in modern end-rhymed verse. In addition, notice that Gollum's grasp of grammar and vocabulary is far better when he recites riddles than when he speaks naturally. Is this due to Gollum's rote memorization of the verses, or is it an oversight on Tolkien's part?
Samwise’s manner of speaking also shows improvement when he recites The Oliphaunt (ironically to Gollum), or when he extemporizes a verse in memory to Gandalf.
I think it’s quite deliberate on Tolkien’s part. I bet he noticed the same dichotomy with his student’s classroom recitations versus their hallway conversations. I know I tend to lose my thick Texas drawl when I’m reciting memorized poetry. I sound almost educated.
It's also like the country western singer Mel Tillis, whose speech impediment (he stutters) doesn't affect his singing voice.
Throughout this chapter we get glimpses of Gollum’s past in the Stoor colony along the Anduin River (which, of course, we don’t know yet). Would you find it interesting if someone actually strung together these striking vignettes of Gollum’s former life from The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings?
Probably.
Would it make for an interesting bit of research?
A good dissertation.
Is there just such a piece available, and can someone refer us to it?
I’m sure if there is NEB will have it posted by the end of the day.
Which of the riddles in this chapter is your favorite?
A box without hinges, key or lid,
Yet golden treasure inside is hid.
Why?
Because whenever people say I shouldn’t eat egg yolks I always say “What, and give up my golden treasure?” They always look at me funny.
We know that by accepting the question and attempting to answer it Gollum thus accepted the rules, but don’t you feel Gollum was cheated at this point?
I’m looking at it from the opposite view. After dueling to a stand-still in the Riddle Game, Gollum seized upon an absent-minded comment to try to change the game and break the deadlock.
I’m certain most feel that Gollum was not going to abide by the rules if he lost in any case, yet doesn’t this give him a rationalization for breaking his word, given that he is not stable mentally?
He’s going to find a rationalization no matter what. That’s what junkies are best at.
Once Gollum fails at guessing three times, the original version states:
‘But funnily enough he [Bilbo] need not have been alarmed. For one thing Gollum had learned long long ago was never, never, to cheat at the riddle-game, which is a sacred one and of immense antiquity. Also there was the sword. He simply sat and whispered.’
Gollum honorable? By being able to surrender the Ring on a mere whim, does this reduce the pathos and the overall magnitude of the Gollum character? Does it seem likely that a miserable creature living in subterranean darkness for goodness knows how long, bereft of kith and kin, would give up his only piece of treasure?
I always thought the phrase “Also there was the sword” was the ironic punch-line to a very good joke. It’s like someone listing at length all the positives of marrying a particular individual (clean, cheerful, prompt, good personality, etc.) and at the very last throwing in like it was an afterthought “Oh, and they’re also rich.” Guess which characteristic by far has the greatest weight?
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 27 2009, 5:58pm
Post #7 of 15
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But given Tolkien’s expert knowledge of Anglo-Saxon language and poetry, do you find it odd that he doesn’t adopt Anglo-Saxon alliteration or meter for any of his riddles?
In general, The Hobbit is told in modern vernacular, without any of the mock archaisms of LotR. The same is true of the songs and riddles.
In addition, notice that Gollum's grasp of grammar and vocabulary is far better when he recites riddles than when he speaks naturally. Is this due to Gollum's rote memorization of the verses, or is it an oversight on Tolkien's part?
The former, I think. It makes sense to me that Gollum could be letter perfect when reciting from memory.
Would you find it interesting if someone actually strung together these striking vignettes of Gollum’s former life from The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings? Would it make for an interesting bit of research? Is there just such a piece available, and can someone refer us to it?
Are you trying to get us to do your homework again? I think it is important, though, to distinguish what we learn in The Hobbit from what we learn in LotR. With Tolkien's revisions, they are consistent, but The Hobbit is much more ambiguous, even in the revised version. The important thing, I think, is that Gollum and Bilbo have a surprising amount in common, and that if Bilbo makes the wrong choices he could end up like Gollum. But it isn't at all clear from The Hobbit, I contend, that Gollum is of the same or similar race as Bilbo, or that he is 500 years old.
Which of the riddles in this chapter is your favorite? Why?
The riddle about time is so creepy, and Bilbo's answer is so lucky, which fits Bilbo's role as the bringer of luck.
We know that by accepting the question and attempting to answer it Gollum thus accepted the rules, but don’t you feel Gollum was cheated at this point?
Gollum intimidated Bilbo into this game for his life in the first place, so I don't feel too sorry for him. Whether Bilbo abided by the rules is even more in question in the first version, where he hides the fact that he has the ring, and demands another prize instead. Bilbo is learning to be a Trickster, after all.
I’m certain most feel that Gollum was not going to abide by the rules if he lost in any case, yet doesn’t this give him a rationalization for breaking his word, given that he is not stable mentally?
Not after he agreed to getting three guesses, no, not a valid rationalization.
Once Gollum fails at guessing three times, the original version states:
‘But funnily enough he [Bilbo] need not have been alarmed. For one thing Gollum had learned long long ago was never, never, to cheat at the riddle-game, which is a sacred one and of immense antiquity. Also there was the sword. He simply sat and whispered.’
Gollum honorable? By being able to surrender the Ring on a mere whim, does this reduce the pathos and the overall magnitude of the Gollum character? Does it seem likely that a miserable creature living in subterranean darkness for goodness knows how long, bereft of kith and kin, would give up his only piece of treasure?
In the original version Gollum did abide by the rules, although Bilbo's sword may have had something to do with that. In the revised version Gollum is more clearly a liar and a cheat.
There is more moral ambiguity in The Hobbit than in LotR. The party is hunting treasure, not trying to save the world, and it is unclear whether anyone in the enterprise is morally pure. We aren't even sure of Gandalf until the end. And for an apparent monster, Gollum has a surprising sense of fairness. The trolls were a bit sympathetic as well.
Smaug plays on this in his talk with Bilbo, where he notes that dwarves are not always to be trusted, and refers back to the dubious way they made their agreement with Bilbo.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 27 2009, 6:15pm
Post #8 of 15
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There is more moral ambiguity in The Hobbit than in LotR. The party is hunting treasure, not trying to save the world, and it is unclear whether anyone in the enterprise is morally pure. We aren't even sure of Gandalf until the end. And for an apparent monster, Gollum has a surprising sense of fairness. The trolls were a bit sympathetic as well.
Smaug plays on this in his talk with Bilbo, where he notes that dwarves are not always to be trusted, and refers back to the dubious way they made their agreement with Bilbo.
Given the moral ambiguity of Jackson's Gandalf (and initially Aragorn) in the films, one anticipates that these aspects might be emphasized in the upcoming Hobbit film.
One can only speculate on how purists (film *and* book) will react.
It ought to be fun!
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 27 2009, 7:33pm
Post #9 of 15
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The cat is out of the bag regarding Gandalf.
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But perhaps del Toro can show Bilbo's doubts about Gandalf, who consistently disappears when things get dicey, even if we know Gandalf is one of the good guys.
But it isn't just the treasure hunters who have moral issues. The Eagles steal sheep and wouldn't have helped if they hadn't known Gandalf, Beorn is a fierce beast of a man who apparently engages in enhanced interrogation techniques up to and including execution, the Elvenking (Legolas's dad!) is greedy and distrustful, and the Master of Laketown is a greedy and clever politician.
All of these old confrontations are there as undercurrents in LotR, but a mutual enemy unites the free peoples. In The Hobbit the mutual enemy isn't as apparent, until the end. Then everyone comes together for a good old goblin slaughter. Good thing they attacked!
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
Apr 29 2009, 5:33pm
Post #10 of 15
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You finally cleared something up for me.
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On this board in the past I have read posts saying that there are differences between the original story and the later revision. My own copy of The Hobbit is the later version. I had a suspicion I may have read the original version of at least the riddle game chapter at some point, though, either from a library book or else from an anthology of children’s literature I remember from school which had this chapter in it. Some of the changes mentioned here in the RR in the past rang vague bells with me so that I thought I might have read the original version. Yet it wasn’t until I saw your quote about the sacredness and antiquity of the rules that I have become pretty sure I had indeed read the older version in the past. I remember reading this a long time ago, but it certainly isn’t in my own copy of the book. So thanks for that!
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Apr 29 2009, 9:09pm
Post #11 of 15
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The sacredness and antiquity are in both versions
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This is the revised version:
"He knew, of course, that the riddle-game was sacred and of immense antiquity, and even wicked creatures were afraid to cheat when they played at it."
The bit about "even wicked creatures" takes away that potential impression that Gollum is acting out of honorable motives. But the words "sacred and of immense antiquity" are still there.
Here's a side-by-side comparison of the original and revised chapter. Maybe that will give you some more clues as to which version you read as a child.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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squire
Gondolin
Apr 30 2009, 12:42am
Post #12 of 15
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But not at all in the same context
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The difference is that in the original, it is Gollum who hesitates to cheat because of the ancientry of the Riddle Game rules. In other words, Hobbit-Gollum has a residual sense of honor and ethics (Bilbo's sword is, of course, mentioned as a practical deterrent against backsliding). This is consistent with his later agreement to guide Bilbo out, which he does quite honestly.
In the revision, it is Bilbo who is conscious of the Riddle Game rules - he hesitates to trust their power over such a "wicked" creature as Gollum. Thus LordOfTheRings-Gollum is set up as a cheat and criminal at just the point in the story where Hobbit-Gollum acquires some honor.
The Narrator does the deed in this switcheroo, reinforcing his identity as Tolkien -- reaching in and tweaking the angle of his story so many years later.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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xy
Nargothrond
May 1 2009, 11:53am
Post #13 of 15
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one of the best chapters in the Hobbit
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Interesting question
We know that by accepting the question and attempting to answer it Gollum thus accepted the rules, but don’t you feel Gollum was cheated at this point? I’m certain most feel that Gollum was not going to abide by the rules if he lost in any case, yet doesn’t this give him a rationalization for breaking his word, given that he is not stable mentally?
While the "what do I have in my pocket?" line technically isn't a riddle, Gollum consented to answer. Not only that, he got 3 chances of getting it right. Last but not least, he promised to get Bilbo out. If anything it's Gollum who's cheating. We see what his word is worth once he realizes Bilbo's got the ring. He flat out said "we eats it if it doesn't answer", a direct threat to the life of Bilbo, who only said "my pocket" question in dire circumstances as he didn't think of a riddle. He didn't mean to deceive Gollum.
(This post was edited by xy on May 1 2009, 11:59am)
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Curious
Gondolin
May 1 2009, 2:53pm
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The 1937 version is a closer call.
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There Bilbo had the ring Gollum promised but did not reveal that fact to Gollum, instead demanding that Gollum guide him to the gate. Bilbo's behavior may be excused by the circumstances, but in that version Bilbo comes closer to cheating than Gollum, who apologizes profusely for having lost the promised ring.
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Nargothrond
May 1 2009, 3:44pm
Post #15 of 15
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it's true Gollum is less evil in that version
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- but to be fair, Bilbo didn't know what the "present" was, let alone he had it in his pocket already. In hindsight, that version would seem odd compared to LOTR: Gollum would be willing to give up the Ring in a riddle contest ?
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