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batik
Dor-Lomin
Apr 28 2009, 5:14am
Post #1 of 13
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OotF-PitF: part 2
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Just a short set of questions...
Throughout the chapter, references to/examples of land formations (including ridges, slopes, lowlands, plains, rocky walls, dells, boulders) and plants and trees (berries, sorrel, thyme, sage, marjoram, pines, larch, fir and so on) are given.
I gather Tolkien had, at least, a working knowledge of these things. - Was this common for the folk living around the time The Hobbit was written?
- Were botany and geology part of your formal (or informal) educational experience?
- Did Tolkien comment on whether he intentionally included these references in an effort to teach/pass on the knowledge?
Once again, the land seems to come alive through Tolkien’s use of words:
“Before long the whole slope above them and below them seemed on the move, and they were sliding away, huddled all together, in a fearful confusion of slipping, rattling, cracking slabs and stones.”
- Do you have a favorite *Tolkien* brings-nature-to-life passage?
(I'll have part 3 up on Wednesday...)
(This post was edited by batik on Apr 28 2009, 5:16am)
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Apr 28 2009, 7:58pm
Post #2 of 13
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Rocky Mountain Wild Yellow Flower
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I took geomorphology in high school and loved it. But I never took any botany. My mom was pretty good at recognizing wildflowers, and would point them out to us on hikes, but if we asked her one she didn't know, she'd say very seriously "That's a Rocky Mountain Wild Yellow [or blue or red or white] Flower." So that's the extent of my botany.
I would expect people of Tolkien's generation were probably more knowledgable than we are about geology and botany, and also about things like the phases of the moon. They spent more time looking at the outdoors than we do.
Gosh, how could I pick a favorite passage? I love all his landscape passages. That's probably my favorite thing about the books. But here's one of my many favorites:
They found it was further than they thought. The ground was rising steeply still, and it was becoming increasingly stony. The light grew broader as they went on, and soon they saw that there was a rock-wall before them: the side of a hill, or the abrupt end of some long root thrust out by the distant mountains. No trees grew on it, and the sun was falling full on its stony face. The twigs of the trees at its foot were stretched out stiff and still, as if reaching out to the warmth. Where all had looked so shabby and grey before, the wood now gleamed with rich browns, and with the smooth black-greys of bark like polished leather. The boles of the trees glowed with a soft green like young grass: early spring or a fleeting vision of it was about them.
In the face of the stony wall there was something like a stair: natural perhaps, and made by the weathering and splitting of the rock, for it was rough and uneven. High up, almost level with the tops of forest-trees, there was a shelf under a cliff. Nothing grew there but a few grasses and weeds at its edge, and one old stump of a tree with only two bent branches left: it looked almost like the figure of some gnarled old man, standing there, blinking in the morning-light.
...In honor of
...
......TORN's annual
......Founder's Day Celebration
...........Established 4/26/09
...Corvar, Xoanon, Tehanu, Calisuri.....LARGER IMAGE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Apr 28 2009, 7:59pm)
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Apr 28 2009, 9:02pm
Post #3 of 13
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Ha! we call'em East Texas yellow, etc. wildflowers here...
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"Geomorphology"...really?... sounds like one of those *fantastic alterations* to me! 
Would that be something to do with changes in the land?
I used to have part of the set of Public School Methods textbooks (c. 1920's) and found the amount of nature-oriented/related information very interesting, especially compared with today's textbooks.
Public School Methods Volume 4 1921 ed.
Thanks for sharing "a" favorite!
(This post was edited by batik on Apr 28 2009, 9:03pm)
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 28 2009, 9:58pm
Post #4 of 13
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Just a short set of questions...
Throughout the chapter, references to/examples of land formations (including ridges, slopes, lowlands, plains, rocky walls, dells, boulders) and plants and trees (berries, sorrel, thyme, sage, marjoram, pines, larch, fir and so on) are given.
I gather Tolkien had, at least, a working knowledge of these things.
Was this common for the folk living around the time The Hobbit was written?
I would suppose it would depend somewhat on social class. On Sundays ladies and children would often visit the countryside in a large party, with baskets for picking berries and herbs and flowers. The children would of course receive a practical education in identification, but only of plants in the area. (I have a large painting hanging in the living room of such a party called “Berry Picking”.)
Men and boys would go gather wood, and again the boys would receive a practical education in the differences between slow burning hardwood trees and swift burning softwoods, not to mention wood that might be useful for construction.
Needless to say, traversing the countryside made them familiar with their surroundings, which would include knowing about this ridge or that slope or that dell or that boulder.
Finally, there is the necessity of knowing what's the difference between a weed and the shoot of an edible plant. A kid pulls the wrong one while weeding and Mom isn't happy.
I won't even mention weeding cotton.
Were botany and geology part of your formal (or informal) educational experience?
Yes. As a child I helped supplement the family diet. Can you imagine the quality and quantity of the family supper depending on a 9 year old kid?
Did Tolkien comment on whether he intentionally included these references in an effort to teach/pass on the knowledge?
I think this was part of his description of a rural sensibility.
Once again, the land seems to come alive through Tolkien’s use of words:
“Before long the whole slope above them and below them seemed on the move, and they were sliding away, huddled all together, in a fearful confusion of slipping, rattling, cracking slabs and stones.”
· Do you have a favorite *Tolkien* brings-nature-to-life passage?
About four days from the enchanted stream they came to a part where most of the trees were beeches. They were at first inclined to be cheered by the change, for here there was no undergrowth and the shadow was not so deep. There was a greenish light about them, and in places they could see some distance to either side of the path. Yet the light only showed them endless lines of straight grey trunks like the pillars of some huge twilight hall. There was a breath of air and a noise of wind, but it had a sad sound. A few leaves came rustling down to remind them that outside autumn was coming on. Their feet ruffled among the dead leaves of countless other autumns that drifted over the banks of the path from the deep red carpets of the forest.
Which is followed by:
The sun was shining brilliantly, and it was a long while before he could bear it. When he could, he saw all round him a sea of dark green, ruffled here and there by the breeze; and there were everywhere hundreds of butterflies. I expect they were a kind of ‘purple emperor,’ a butterfly that loves the tops of oak-woods, but these were not purple at all, they were a dark dark velvety black without any markings to be seen.
I know there’s no way the picture in my mind will ever be replicated in the upcoming movie, but I still can’t wait to see it.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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sador
Gondolin
Apr 28 2009, 9:59pm
Post #5 of 13
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First, a general observation: this is the type of thread I usually associate with a.s.
And another one: lovely flowers!
Was this common for the folk living around the time The Hobbit was written?
In LotR, Tolkien mourns for the loss of rural Britain. I assume those who lived in the countryside knew it well.
As a crazy aside - a very wierd dissenting voice is in the fourth or fifth chapter of Under the Fifth Rib - also called The Book of Joad after its author (I never understood how some of the books at my mother's ever got there - I speculate she bought it for next-to-nothing in a second-hand book auction; but it is a real fun book).
On the other hand - Richard Adams (Watership Down, and some less well-known books) stands out as a more recent author he knows quite a bit.
Were botany and geology part of your formal (or informal) educational experience?
They probably were, but they went completely over (or under) my head.
Did Tolkien comment on whether he intentionally included these references in an effort to teach/pass on the knowledge?
I'm the wrong person to answer such questions.
Do you have a favorite *Tolkien* brings-nature-to-life passage?
The doomed, heroic struggle of nature to live in Mordor, which I discussed in this thread.
"What is all this uproar in the forest tonight?" - the Lord of the Eagles
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Apr 28 2009, 10:02pm
Post #6 of 13
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was about the shape of land forms. I learned all kinds of fun jargon like "monadnock" and "drumlin" and "cirque". We studied the shapes of sand dunes and river meanders and glaciers, and how to read a topo map. It was thirty-five years ago, so I don't remember a lot, except that it was very interesting.
What a cool-looking book!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Apr 28 2009, 11:08pm
Post #7 of 13
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Probably you meant berry *pickin'*
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Although these days I couldn't tell the difference between poison ivy from some other green leafy plant, I do have mostly fond memories of picking peas (Wasps!), berries, corn (Worms!), plums, and peaches. This was always at somebody else's field or down whatever oil top road since we lived "in town" and had no garden space. Growing up in the Piney Woods--well, I know pine trees! Relatively flat terrain so few attention grabbing features to note.
No doubt social class plays a role, then, too, I would guess that many less folk have access to/reason to be "on the land". Happily, I was able to do a little berry-pickin' with my granddaughter this past weekend.
Weeding cotton??? My flower bed gets in sorry shape by June. I can only imagine!
Hmmm...the passage you noted....here's to hoping we get a great representation!
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 29 2009, 12:13am
Post #8 of 13
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It may also be a product of Tolkien's amateur landscapes.
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Tolkien is much better at describing landscapes than people, or at least he does so in much more vivid detail. And his drawings, too, tend to be landscapes rather than portraits.
Other have noted that he loved the rural life, and that may have something to do with his affinity for landscapes.
Also, in my short experience in England, gardening is an absolute passion there. In America the emphasis tends to be on lawns, at least among male landowners. But in England there is often a flower garden in front and a vegetable garden in back, while the lawns are found in public spaces like great estates, village commons, sports facilities (a number of English games are played on lawns). So I think an Englishman is likely to know more about garden plants, at any rate, than an American. There are public gardens as well, big enough to include exotic trees, especially in Oxford. And Tolkien commented on his special affinity for trees.
What Tolkien lacks, along with more detailed portraits of faces, are herds of wild animals, like one would find in a truly wild land -- say in Africa, or frontier America. Even Beorn's friends are domesticated animals. Birds are common, but not buffalo or bison or antelope in large numbers. I wonder what all those wolves and bears and giant eagles eat in the mountains, when they can't get sheep.
Were botany and geology part of your formal (or informal) educational experience?
No.
Did Tolkien comment on whether he intentionally included these references in an effort to teach/pass on the knowledge?
No, I think he took it for granted. Although he did comment on his affinity for trees.
Do you have a favorite *Tolkien* brings-nature-to-life passage?
I can think of lots of examples from LotR, but fewer from The Hobbit, for some reason. Well, unless you mean literally bringing nature to life, as when the stone giants play while the storms do battle. I was thinking more of passages in which Tolkien lovingly describes a picturesque natural scene. I haven't noticed those as much in The Hobbit. I'm not sure why. Even in Rivendell Tolkien does not linger over the scenery in The Hobbit. Perhaps he did not think children would be interested.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 29 2009, 5:10pm
Post #9 of 13
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Predators in most places dine very well on rabbits and rats, or the closest equivalents. They're small but plentiful, and easier prey than big game.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 29 2009, 6:03pm
Post #10 of 13
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We've forgotten what it was like
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when the fertile parts of the world were wild. We now tend to associate wilderness with deserts and mountains and frozen tundra which cannot be farmed or even grazed. There are two places in the world right now that are truly wild and relatively fertile: the buffer zone between North and South Korea, and the radiactive zone around Chernobyl. Both now have abundant animal life. Land mines and radioactivity are less deadly to animals than people.
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sador
Gondolin
Apr 29 2009, 6:26pm
Post #11 of 13
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Not necessarily less dangerous
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People simply tend to avoid places they know are dangerous - at least as long as they have any viable alternative; animals cannot read, so they do not.
In the demilitarised zone between Israel and Syria, there is a short strip of land, fenced from both sides with plenty of signs posted, warning of landmines; about once a month a cow does stray in, and often does not return. But other cows do not learn from that experience.
"What is all this uproar in the forest tonight?" - the Lord of the Eagles
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 2 2009, 2:50am
Post #12 of 13
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Tolkien did a great deal of outdoors exploring in his youth, then took his own children on trips outdoors, and did extensive walking even later in life. And he was observant. So it is no surprise that his knowledge of botany and geology was extensive!
But he did not include the descriptions for "teaching": they were part of his life, and probably part of the lives of most of those he knew.
And the family garden was more prevalent in his time than it is nowadays - at least, here in the U.S. I remember little of any botany and geology learned in school, as they were not reinforced in life!
A favorite Tolkien bringing-nature-to-life passage? So many! And so many are just a line here and there. Here's a few from "The Old Forest":
- "They mounted, and soon they were riding off in the mist, which seemed to open reluctantly before them and close forbiddingly behind them."
- "They picked their way among the trees, and their ponies plodded along, carefully avoiding the many writhing and interlacing roots."
- "...fireweed seeding into fluffy ashes..."
- "On the south-eastern side the ground fell very steeply, as if the slopes of the hill were continued far down under the trees, like island-shores that really are the sides of a mountain rising out of deep waters."
...In honor of
...
......TORN's annual
......Founder's Day Celebration
...........Established 4/26/09
...Corvar, Xoanon, Tehanu, Calisuri.....LARGER IMAGE
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
May 5 2009, 7:52pm
Post #13 of 13
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People did more things outside. They walked, gardened, sat on porches, and many people had land they tended. So it would stand to reason that Tolkien would shun the industrial end of life (cities, technology, progress) and embrace the beauty and power of trees, flowers, hills, etc. One of his descriptions that captivates me is this:
Frodo looked and saw, still at some distance, a hill of many mighty trees, or a city of green towers: which it was he could not tell. Out of it, it seemed to him that the power and light came that held all the land in sway. He longed suddenly to fly like a bird to rest in the green city. Then he looked eastward and saw all the land of Lórien running down to the pale gleam of Anduin, the Great River. He lifted his eyes across the river and all the light went out, and he was back again in the world he knew. Beyond the river the land appeared flat and empty, formless and vague, until far away it rose again like a well, dark and drear. The sun that lay on Lothlórien had no power to enlighten the shadow of that distant height.
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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