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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Apr 27 2009, 8:16pm
Post #1 of 8
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NOTHER Aniversary Thread - The Seige Of Gondor
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I too was asked to lead a discussion on the Seige of Gondor and follow the same material as the others & see what, if anything, we might come up with that was different......
This sent my mind to - of course - trying to come up with something totally different, lol......
To that end, I wanted to see each of the other posts before preceding with my own somewhat odd approach.
The first thing that struck me in trying to compare and contrast Gandalf with Denethor and their reactions to the obviously stressful situation of the Seige is the difference in their make-up:
Denethor is a Man of the West, a Numenorean, full-blooded Dunedain, while Gandalf is not only an Istari, a Maia 'clad in the body of a Man, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain, though because of their noble spirits they did not die.' (Essay on the Istari). but, by the time of the Siege, Gandalf has returned from the dead as the 'new and improved' Gandalf the White.......
So, the question occured to me, that yes, we have Gandalf's greater & nobler response under pressure, certainly, but, we are hardly talking about two Men who started on equal footing here.......
1. Does Gandalf's coming from his original 'Maiar Stock' give him a decided advantage in handling the stress/situation? Or do you think that Gandalf, being put into a 'man's' body has been given a man's emotions, foibles & tribulations as well and has no advantage?
Does this add sympathy to Denethor's character if Gandalf has a built in advantage in being a 'Maia'?
Denethor at one point gives command to Gandalf, telling the soldiers/Captains to "follow anyone, even the Grey Fool".
2. What if Denethor had given command of Minas Tirith to somebody besides Gandalf?
What might Faramir done had he not been hurt? Imrahil? To carry it to absurdity, what about Boromir? How might each of these have reacted in place of Denethor if he had cracked up a little sooner, like when the Seige began?
3. How about Saruman? Gandalf wanted to use him to help, repent & aid them against Sauron. Had Saruman repented & followed Gandalf, might he have been able to confront the Witch-king after Gandalf left the Gates or been able to save Denethor in place of Gandalf? Or would Tolkien have just had a repentent Saruman give information to Gandalf & Company and stay in Orthanc? Why or why not on all accounts......
And, lol, what could Radaghast have done?
4. Would/did Denethor's madness really make one bit of difference in the long run as far as the actual prosecution of the war went - I'm not talking about specific individuals like King Theodan dying on the Field. Would events in the War have proceeded the same whether or not Denethor looked into the Palantir?
Movie Questions.....
What did you think of:
5. Gandalf smashing Denethor in the face to take control of Minas Tirith?
(This got a HUGE applause in the theatre every time I saw it, but I couldn't help think the Old Prof. would have rolled over in his grave)
6. Gandalf's horse apparently kicking Denethor into the pyre & burning him to death.
7. Denethor breaking the world record for the 100 yard dash while engulfed in flame & then attempting the high jump immediately thereafter.
8. I would be remiss for not asking - Gandalf versus The Witch-king (E.E.) 
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 27 2009, 8:49pm
Post #2 of 8
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1. Does Gandalf's coming from his original 'Maiar Stock' give him a decided advantage in handling the stress/situation? Or do you think that Gandalf, being put into a 'man's' body has been given a man's emotions, foibles & tribulations as well and has no advantage? Does this add sympathy to Denethor's character if Gandalf has a built in advantage in being a 'Maia'?
Gandalf doesn't have an advantage over Denethor any more than Denethor has an advantage over "lesser men." Look at Saruman, for example. Look at Sauron. Look at Melkor/Morgoth. The taller they come, the harder they fall. If Gandalf has an advantage in this chapter, it is because he has passed the test numerous times before, while Denethor long ago began straying from the right path.
2. What if Denethor had given command of Minas Tirith to somebody besides Gandalf?
Perhaps we should give Denethor some credit for designating Gandalf, even if he did so insultingly. But if he had designated someone else, chances are they would have run away anyway, leaving Gandalf at the Gate.
What might Faramir done had he not been hurt? Imrahil? To carry it to absurdity, what about Boromir? How might each of these have reacted in place of Denethor if he had cracked up a little sooner, like when the Seige began?
We know that Faramir and Boromir withstood the Nazgul in Osgiliath, and temporarily saved the bridges. They could have rallied a few troops, but without Rohan's help they probably would not have saved the City.
3. How about Saruman? Gandalf wanted to use him to help, repent & aid them against Sauron. Had Saruman repented & followed Gandalf, might he have been able to confront the Witch-king after Gandalf left the Gates or been able to save Denethor in place of Gandalf? Or would Tolkien have just had a repentent Saruman give information to Gandalf & Company and stay in Orthanc? Why or why not on all accounts......
And, lol, what could Radaghast have done?
When Theoden was cured he did not stay in Meduseld, but led his troops. If Saruman had repented I think he would have joined Gandalf in the defense of Gondor. But all of this is a diversion, anyway. Elrond offered elf-lords like Glorfindel and Gandalf turned him down. Ultimately, only Frodo's quest will save the day. Everyone else is just stalling for time.
4. Would/did Denethor's madness really make one bit of difference in the long run as far as the actual prosecution of the war went - I'm not talking about specific individuals like King Theodan dying on the Field. Would events in the War have proceeded the same whether or not Denethor looked into the Palantir?
Probably events would remain the same or very similar. When Tolkien contemplated in a letter what would happen if Gollum had repented, Tolkien assumed that the remaining events would be similar, complete with Gollum falling in the fire. The key difference is that Gollum would jump in the fire voluntarily. The future has already been written; it is the fate of the characters' souls that is uncertain.
I will pass on the movie questions, since I have not seen the movie since it came out in the theater.
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simplyaven
Hithlum
Apr 28 2009, 1:57am
Post #3 of 8
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1. Does Gandalf's coming from his original 'Maiar Stock' give him a decided advantage in handling the stress/situation? Or do you think that Gandalf, being put into a 'man's' body has been given a man's emotions, foibles & tribulations as well and has no advantage?
Gandalf was put into a human body, he wasn't given a human soul. In this case I would say: thankfully. He had to experience the man's needs (physical) but I don't think he was necessarily experiencing the exact same emotions. Or to make it clearer - he was in a far better control of his own emotional side than a regular human being is. I'd say for this particular situation he was more able to handle the fear mostly than most humans would. Fear and terror are the main enemies of men, IMHO. Gandalf is above them and this is his most avluable weapon, together with his faith although for me these two are hand in hand.
Does this add sympathy to Denethor's character if Gandalf has a built in advantage in being a 'Maia'?
No, not to me. A man can at least try to be a noble, good man. Or fail. Being a man is not an excuse for being stupid, ignorant or coward.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on April 30th on the Main board for the renewed thread!
Middle earth recipes archive
I believe
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sador
Gondolin
Apr 30 2009, 2:34pm
Post #4 of 8
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A few answers, some to the point
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1. Does Gandalf's coming from his original 'Maiar Stock' give him a decided advantage in handling the stress/situation?
Most readers naturally assume so. Why not?
But it's interesting that Denethor thinks Gandalf's 'Maiar Stock' gives him extra subtlety, but not wisdom.
Or do you think that Gandalf, being put into a 'man's' body has been given a man's emotions, foibles & tribulations as well and has no advantage?
Judging by the Silmarillion, an Ainu's emotions, foibles and tribulations are no picnic either.
Does this add sympathy to Denethor's character if Gandalf has a built in advantage in being a 'Maia'?
No, and yes.
No, because we are not in an Arena thread, seeing which one is stronger and hoping against hope the underdog wins.
Yes, because it does seem that Gandalf is conspiring to undermine Denethor. His advantage in that respect seems unfair.
It is all very well for us to say that with his superior knowledge and wisdon, Gandalf is justified - but Denethor is entitled to any sympathy king Saul receives after being informed by Samuel he is about to be deposed - and Denethor does not start a manhunt for his opponent.
2. What if Denethor had given command of Minas Tirith to somebody besides Gandalf?
It doesn't seem Gandalf did much until the Gate was broken,does it? Do you think without him it would have been assaulted earlier?
What might Faramir done had he not been hurt? Imrahil? To carry it to absurdity, what about Boromir?
Not much. It takes time to bring Grond, and the Gate withstood it, until the Witch-king came.
Would Faramir or Boromir have stood their ground against the Lord of the Nazgul for the three minutes it took for the Rohirrim to arrive? I would like to answer yes.
But in that case, it is possible the Witch-king would have taken the couple of minutes require to kill them before going back to face the new challange. Gandalf is far more powerful and dangerous.
And of course, if Boromir or Faramir would be in command, Gandalf might have helped Denthor before.
Arghhh! The temptation of idle speculation!
How might each of these have reacted in place of Denethor if he had cracked up a little sooner, like when the Seige began?
Faramir would have given Gandalf a free hand to do whatever he wished; Boromir would try to assert his own authority; Imrahil would stand upon his dignity, but do exactly what he was told to do.
3. How about Saruman? Gandalf wanted to use him to help, repent & aid them against Sauron. Had Saruman repented & followed Gandalf, might he have been able to confront the Witch-king after Gandalf left the Gates or been able to save Denethor in place of Gandalf?
He probably was powerful enough for that. But if the Witch-king was indeed vested with Sauron's power, he would have roundly defeated the petty upstart.
Or would Tolkien have just had a repentent Saruman give information to Gandalf & Company and stay in Orthanc? Why or why not on all accounts......
If Tolkien would have written about a repentant Saruman, it would have been a completely different story.
And, lol, what could Radaghast have done?
He would probably change his form and hue, aghast at the carnage all around him.
(there is no 'h' in Radagast. Lol yourself.  )
4. Would/did Denethor's madness really make one bit of difference in the long run as far as the actual prosecution of the war went - I'm not talking about specific individuals like King Theoden dying on the Field. Would events in the War have proceeded the same whether or not Denethor looked into the Palantir?
Well, of course the War would have proceeded differently. But I think that Aragorn's looking in the palantir did more, inducing Sauron to attack quickly.
Of course, if Denethor hadn't looked in his palantir, Sauron might have felt less confident that striking soon is advisable. But these are subtleties.
Movie Questions Good! Nobody else dealt with the movie interpretation of the Siege, which is quite different from the way I imagined it.
5. Gandalf smashing Denethor in the face to take control of Minas Tirith?
That's a part of the way they portrayed Denethor in the movie, which I've expressed my dislike of several times on these boards already.
Let's say that movie-Denethor deserved to be smacked.
This got a HUGE applause in the theatre every time I saw it...
Did it? Oh my.
I couldn't help think the Old Prof. would have rolled over in his grave.
I nearly rolled in mine when I first saw it
6. Gandalf's horse apparently kicking Denethor into the pyre & burning him to death.
I don't know much about horses, but a rearing horse is something I don't want to be near, especially not when it is terrified by a fire. But I didn't see it as kicking.
7. Denethor breaking the world record for the 100 yard dash while engulfed in flame & then attempting the high jump immediately thereafter.
It wasn't a high jump, it was skydiving. And no, I didn't like it - a spectacle which made no sense.
8. I would be remiss for not asking - Gandalf versus The Witch-king (E.E.)
Should have been at the Gate, and not over the walls - what was Gandalf doing so high up?
On the other hand, without Beregond - Pippin's finding Gandalf down at the Gate would have stretched credibility even more than Gandalf riding to Isengard and back by the time Frodo and Sam amble to Bree, or the Underworld Erech-Pelargir shortcut.
What I really missed was the cock crowing; between that and having the confrontation far from the Gate, all the symbolic power of this scene was taken away.
But I am fine with the breaking of Gandalf's staff - as I explained here.
Thanks, Tolkien Forever!
"What is all this uproar in the forest tonight?" - the Lord of the Eagles
(This post was edited by Ataahua on May 3 2009, 8:26pm)
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 30 2009, 3:26pm
Post #5 of 8
(372 views)
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Fozzie the Grey: "Whacka-whacka-whacka!"
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1. Does Gandalf's coming from his original 'Maiar Stock' give him a decided advantage in handling the stress/situation?
One remembers how the Sons of God lost it when they got into an earthly stress/situation.
Or do you think that Gandalf, being put into a 'man's' body has been given a man's emotions, foibles & tribulations as well and has no advantage?
Since he wasn’t born with them he’s even at less of an advantage.
Does this add sympathy to Denethor's character if Gandalf has a built in advantage in being a 'Maia'?
With the blood of Numenor isn’t Denethor part Maia as well?
Denethor at one point gives command to Gandalf, telling the soldiers/Captains to "follow anyone, even the Grey Fool".
2. What if Denethor had given command of Minas Tirith to somebody besides Gandalf?
Gandalf would have whacked them, too.
What might Faramir done had he not been hurt?
Refused command even if he found it by the side of the road and instead remained a wizard’s pupil.
Imrahil?
Redecorate.
To carry it to absurdity, what about Boromir?
Lose it the moment he peeked into the palantir.
How might each of these have reacted in place of Denethor if he had cracked up a little sooner, like when the Seige began?
Counterattacked earlier, like in the movie.
3. How about Saruman?
He’s a wienie.
Gandalf wanted to use him to help, repent & aid them against Sauron. Had Saruman repented & followed Gandalf, might he have been able to confront the Witch-king after Gandalf left the Gates or been able to save Denethor in place of Gandalf?
Saruman couldn’t pour water out of a boot even if the instructions were written on the heel.
Or would Tolkien have just had a repentent Saruman give information to Gandalf & Company and stay in Orthanc?
He’d have given him a wand with one charge in it.
Why or why not on all accounts......
He’s a wienie.
And, lol, what could Radaghast have done?
Ever see Hitchcock’s The Birds (1963)?
4. Would/did Denethor's madness really make one bit of difference in the long run as far as the actual prosecution of the war went - I'm not talking about specific individuals like King Theodan dying on the Field. Would events in the War have proceeded the same whether or not Denethor looked into the Palantir?
I think it’s obvious he was unstable from the start. His relationships with Thorongil, Finduilas, Gandalf, Imrahil, Faramir, and even Boromir all point towards a borderline psychotic. Since his hold on reality wasn’t very firm to begin with the palantir was just a little nudge that pushed him over the edge. Jackson skips all the pussyfooting around of the book and shows that instability right off.
Movie Questions.....
What did you think of:
5. Gandalf smashing Denethor in the face to take control of Minas Tirith?
Funny as heck.
”Yet for all your subtleties,…” WHAP!
(This got a HUGE applause in the theatre every time I saw it,…
Yep. Jackson knows us folks of the Great Unwashed.
….but I couldn't help think the Old Prof. would have rolled over in his grave)
He’s too busy counting his money. “Art or cash”, as he said, and he sure as heck got cash!
6. Gandalf's horse apparently kicking Denethor into the pyre & burning him to death.
A King’s duty: Shadowfax is meting out justice for all the horses Denethor killed in Faramir’s charge.
7. Denethor breaking the world record for the 100 yard dash while engulfed in flame & then attempting the high jump immediately thereafter.
A flashback to an arson case I worked. The guy was drunk and tried to torch his ex-wife’s car with a can of gasoline. Instead he set fire to himself with his cigarette and managed to run down the block and collapse in the middle of the next intersection. Looked like a big chunk of charcoal.
Kids, that’s *exactly* what happens when you don’t remember to “Stop, drop, and roll”!
8. I would be remiss for not asking - Gandalf versus The Witch-king (E.E.)
I can see why Jackson cut it from the TR. It doesn’t really work in the book either.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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sador
Gondolin
Apr 30 2009, 3:55pm
Post #6 of 8
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Indeed, it seems that Gandalf has learned his lesson well...
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Gandalf: There was little else that I could do. I could not take it from Bilbo without doing greater harm
Scott Evil: Let me do it then. Hey, Bilbo, your feet need brushing. Bam! Here’s the Ring, guy, let’s hit the road for Mordor pronto.
(source)
And I can see why it was so popular. 
"What is all this uproar in the forest tonight?" - the Lord of the Eagles
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
Apr 30 2009, 5:30pm
Post #7 of 8
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Why did three of the discussion leaders spell “siege” as “seige”? It seems uncharacteristic of the Reading Room and the smarties who made this error. Did several of you copy and paste one person’s initial misspelling of this? If so where did it come from? Your Yahoo board?
I don’t mean to embarrass anyone, and I try not to point out spelling errors, as I'm as likely as anyone to make them :D . I just keep wondering because it’s so not like you guys.
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
(This post was edited by GaladrielTX on Apr 30 2009, 5:30pm)
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 30 2009, 5:51pm
Post #8 of 8
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You guessed it: cutting and pasting.//
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