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The Seige of Gondor: another anniversary post.

Curious
Gondolin


Apr 26 2009, 6:55am

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The Seige of Gondor: another anniversary post. Can't Post

I came to this forum after Inferno and Kimi and the other people who took part in the first LotR discussion, just before the movies came out. By the time I came along, the boards were quite active, and no matter how many questions were asked, someone would answer. Since then, the discussions have become more focused. I will restrain myself, however, to one post, focusing mainly on the last portion of The Siege of Gondor. But I will ask many questions, and there is no need to answer all of them.

The idea, as I understand it, is for several of us, in honor of the Tenth Anniversary of tor.n, to give examples of how we might lead a discussion regarding the same section of LotR. I'm honored that I was asked to contribute. So here's my take:

Chapter 4


The Siege of Gondor

Pippin witnesses Faramir’s return pursued by “Black Riders of the air” and rescued by Gandalf. Pippin also witnesses Faramir’s report of his meeting with Frodo, which scares Gandalf and infuriates Denethor. The next day Denethor insists that Faramir ride forth again to help defend Osgiliath, questioning his courage if he refuses. After the Enemy takes the walls, Faramir returns with the rearguard, once again under assault, and Gandalf rides with the Prince Imrahil and a sortie of horsemen to rescue them. This time Faramir falls before he is rescued. A “deadly dart” had hit him. Men returning from the north report that a second army of Easterners has cut off the road from Rohan.

The Enemy sets up catapults and sends fire and heads of Gondor soldiers high over the wall. The Nazgûl circle high above the City, and their voices make brave men cower in fear. Faramir lays in a fever and Denethor sits beside him, heedless of the defence. Pippin waits upon him, seemingly forgotten. Men seek orders and Denethor tell them to follow who they will, “’even the Grey Fool, though his hope has failed.’” So Gandalf takes command of the defence, and with him the Prince Imrahil. Fires rage in the first circle, and few men remain at their posts on the outer wall.

In the middle of the night the Enemy assaults the walls, and finds few archers still at their posts. Siege engines slowly roll forward. Again men turn to Denethor, reporting that the first circle of the City is on fire, and Denethor picks up on the suggestion, telling the men to go back to their bonfire while he goes to his pyre. “We will burn like heathen kings before ever a ship sailed hither from the West. The West has failed. Go back and burn!’”

The messengers flee, and Denethor notes that Faramir, too, is burning with fever. Denethor releases Pippin from his service, telling him to send for his servants and go. Pippin sends for the servants but does not go until Faramir’s body has been carried to the tombs of the Stewards, and Denethor has ordered wood and oil for a pyre. Pippin tells the servants to go slowly, then runs to look for Gandalf, “’in the thick of things, I suppose.’” On the way he sees Beregond, explains Faramir’s peril, and asks Beregond to do something, saying “’you must choose between orders and the life of Faramir.’”

Pippin runs down to and through the Second Gate, through great fires and “a gust of fear and horror that shook him almost to his knees.” He turned a corner near the City Gate and stopped dead. “He had found Gandalf; but he shrank back, cowering into a shadow.”

The assault had continued since the middle night, with most of the siege engines drawing off men while the Enemy’s Captain threw his heaviest weight against the Gate.

Quote


The drums rolled louder.

Fires leaped up.

Great engines crawled across the field;
and in the midst was a huge ram,
great as a forest-tree a hundred feet in length,
swinging on mighty chains.

Long had it been forging in the dark smithies of Mordor,
and its hideous head,
founded of black steel,
was shaped in the likeness of a ravening wolf;
on it spells of ruin lay.

Grond they named it,
in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old.

Great beasts drew it,
Orcs surrounded it,
and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it.



About the Gate resistance was still strong, and the bodies piled up. “Grond crawled on.” No fire would catch on it, and if one of the beasts pulling it went mad and stomped on the orcs guarding it, other orcs took their place.


Quote

Grond crawled on.

The drums rolled wildly.

Over the hills of slain a hideous shape appeared:
a horseman,
tall,
hooded,
cloaked in black.

Slowly,
trampling the fallen,
he rode forth,
heeding no longer any dart.

He halted and held up a long pale sword.

And as he did so a great fear fell on all,
defender and foe alike;
and the hands of men drooped to their sides,
and no bow sang.

For a moment all was still.


The drums rolled and rattled.

With a vast rush Grond was hurled forward by huge hands.

It reached the Gate.

It swung.

A deep boom rumbled through the City like thunder running in the clouds.

But the doors of iron and posts of steel withstood the stroke.

Then the Black Captain rose in his stirrups and cried aloud in a dreadful voice,
speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone.


Thrice he cried.

Thrice the great ram boomed.

And suddenly upon the last stroke the Gate of Gondor broke.

As if stricken by some blasting spell it burst asunder:
there was a flash of searing lightning,
and the doors tumbled in riven fragments to the ground.



In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl.

A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up,

grown to a vast menace of despair.

In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl,
under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed,
and all fled before his face.


All save one.

There waiting,
silent and still in the space before the Gate,
sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax:
Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror,
unmoving,
steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dínen.


‘You cannot enter here,’
said Gandalf,
and the huge shadow halted.

‘Go back to the abyss prepared for you!

Go back!

Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master.

Go!’


The Black Rider flung back his hood,
and behold! he had a kingly crown;
and yet upon no head visible was it set.

The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark.

From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.


‘Old fool!’ he said.

‘Old fool!

This is my hour.

Do you not know Death when you see it?

Die now and curse in vain!’

And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.



Gandalf did not move.

And in that very moment,
away behind in some courtyard of the City,
a cock crowed.

Shrill and clear he crowed,
recking nothing of wizardry or war,
welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn.


And as if in answer there came from far away another note.

Horns,
horns,
horns.

In dark Mindolluin’s sides they dimly echoed.

Great horns of the North wildly blowing.

Rohan had come at last.



Questions:

What do you think of my attempt to reformat the last portion of the chapter as free verse? Does it work? Why or why not? What was the risk of

Why is this chapter called “The Siege of Gondor”? Why not “The Assault of Minas Tirith”?

What were the limitations originally placed on Gandalf's direct confrontation of the Enemy? Does Gandalf press the limits of those limitations in this chapter? Does he cross them? Why or why not? Do those limitations still apply to Gandalf the White? Why or why not? Why didn’t the Prince Imrahil take charge, with Gandalf as his counselor?

Is the deadly dart that hit Faramir an arrow, or some other kind of dart?

How exactly do the Nazgul make grown men flee? Do we just have to write it off as magic, or is there a comparable real-world phenomenon?

Analyze this statement of Denethor’s: “We will burn like heathen kings before ever a ship sailed hither from the West. The West has failed. Go back and burn!’” What does this mean? What does he mean by “heathen”? Who were the “heathen kings”? What was the first ship from the West? What is the West? Is there a real-world counterpart to Denethor’s heathen kings who burn themselves alive?

Since the first circle of the City is on fire, what shadow did Pippin find to cower into?

What is the point of loud drum rolls?

Why did the fires leap up? Are these fires inside or outside of the walls?

Why couldn’t the defenders kill the beasts pulling Grond?

What’s so hideous about a tall, hooded horseman?

Three strikes for Grond to break the Gate? Was the magic that powerful? If so, was Grond really necessary?

What forgotten tongue did the Black Captain use?

Why does the Lord of the Nazgul ride through the Gate first? Why not send hordes of orcs ahead of him? What would Gandalf have done if he had?

Did the Prince Imrahil flee in terror?

Why is Gandalf on Shadowfax when he waits behind the Gate? What possible advantage can Shadowfax give him in a confined space surrounded by fire?

Haven’t we seen all this before with the Balrog? Is the Witch-king really the equal of a Balrog? Of Gandalf the White? How so? Wasn’t Gandalf the Grey the equal of all nine Nazgul at Weathertop? Didn’t the Nazgul flee from Aragorn and Glorfindel? Why, then, is the Witch-king so confident?

Why didn’t Sauron lead his army himself? Would the battle have been won if Sauron had been there instead of the Witch-king?

Would Glamdring do the Witch-king any harm if Gandalf hit him with it? If not, why not? How can Glamdring, made by First Age Elves in Gondolin, be any less powerful against the Witch-king than the Barrow Blades the hobbits wield?

What is the significance of a cock crowing? Does it remind you of anything in LotR? In other stories?

How did anyone know the horns were from Rohan? What kind of horns are they?

Did you notice how the timeline shifts back and forth in this chapter? Is that good, bad, or not notworthy at all?

Do you have any other comments about this chapter?


FarFromHome
Doriath


Apr 26 2009, 8:56am

Post #2 of 9 (848 views)
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A couple of answers [In reply to] Can't Post

What do you think of my attempt to reformat the last portion of the chapter as free verse? Does it work? Why or why not?

I think it works brilliantly. And I suspect this is because Tolkien wrote this with the cadences of traditional, oral storytelling in mind.

Why is this chapter called “The Siege of Gondor”? Why not “The Assault of Minas Tirith”?

What's in a name? Here I think the word 'siege' makes us imagine we're going to see a long, passive resistance. And indeed the whole of Gondor has been under siege for a long time already. I think this word underlines Denethor's attitude to the war - stay behind your walls, hold out as long as you can, and hope for relief from elsewhere. No-one imagines that Minas Tirith will fall so quickly to assault: "At first men laughed and did not greatly fear such devices. For the main wall of the City was of great height and marvellous thickness, built ere the power and craft of Númenor waned." They are mostly afraid of succumbing eventually to hunger.

But I think Minas Tirith itself is much like Denethor - presenting a smooth and apparently strong exterior, but somehow hollow and brittle - so that a strong enough force can shatter its defences suddenly and completely.


Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song



entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 27 2009, 12:30am

Post #3 of 9 (716 views)
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The mixing of Gondor and Minas Tirith [In reply to] Can't Post

confused me in my early readings of LOTR, and this chapter highlights my confusion. Minas Tirith isn't Gondor, not any more than London is England. It is the principal city, however there are many other parts to Gondor. On the other hand, the Steward has called all the militia to Minas Tirith, so if the city falls, Gondor also falls.



NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


Tolkien Forever
Mithlond

Apr 27 2009, 9:18pm

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Good Stuff [In reply to] Can't Post

Curious....

There's some interesting questions here.....

You left me nothing, dude. So, I went in a less scholarly direction. Wink

One suggestion: Make your questions in bold or number them at least so they stand out from your commentary. Blush

Anyhow:

Why couldn’t the defenders kill the beasts pulling Grond?

'Great beasts' are pulling it. Are they mumakil or like in the movie, the great kine type wild oxen out of the East?
While a great touch by PJ, I must assume they are probably mumakil, which could only be pierced with arrows in their eyes. The wild kine, they were not that easy either, with the horn of one being an heirloom of the House of the Stewards.


What’s so hideous about a tall, hooded horseman?


What's so scary about a guy in a hockey mask?
It's not....

Only THE guy in the hockey mask......

Just as A tall hooded horseman isn't necessarily hideous, but THE tall hooded horseman who is the Black Captain of Despair certainly is.


Did the Prince Imrahil flee in terror?

We are told everyone does but Gandalf. However, from the noble way Tolkien presents Imrahil in every other passage, as a throwback to the lost glory of Gondor, or the last waning might of Numenor, it certainly seems unlike his character. I would assume Imrahil is kinda cowering in the corner like Pippin, but not fled, hoping against hope to muster up the courage, but knowing and/or hoping he won't need it with Gandalf there.


Why is Gandalf on Shadowfax when he waits behind the Gate? What possible advantage can Shadowfax give him in a confined space surrounded by fire?

If you are going to confront a mounted horseman in battle, it's best to be mounted yourself.


Haven’t we seen all this before with the Balrog? Is the Witch-king really the equal of a Balrog? Of Gandalf the White? How so? Wasn’t Gandalf the Grey the equal of all nine Nazgul at Weathertop? Didn’t the Nazgul flee from Aragorn and Glorfindel? Why, then, is the Witch-king so confident?

I think that you've answered most of your own quetions rather well......

The only reply I can give is that it's stated that the Witch-king had been given more power at this time by Sauron.
However, some times things are not so cut & dried as:

Balrog _> Gandalf the Grey & Gandalf the White > Gandalf the Grey, Plus Gandalf the Grey = The Nine, therefore Gandalf the White > The Witch-king

don't always work out in real life as neatly as they do on paper.


Why didn’t Sauron lead his army himself? Would the battle have been won if Sauron had been there instead of the Witch-king?


Sauron doesn't seem like much of a field general/soldier himself. The only time he actually leads battle is on his own as Dark Lord in the Dark Years before the Nazgul are properly aged.


Would Glamdring do the Witch-king any harm if Gandalf hit him with it? If not, why not? How can Glamdring, made by First Age Elves in Gondolin, be any less powerful against the Witch-king than the Barrow Blades the hobbits wield?

Well, on the one hand, you can easily say that the blades of the barrow-downs are the work of Westernesse & bound about with spells for the bane of Angmar, specifically for the downfall of this particular sorcerer.
On the other hand, the blade of Gondolin is made to fight off giant spiders, orcs, 'super orcs' with minor Maia spirits, probably dragons, werrewolves (also minor spirits there) & Balrogs. There must be something in the make-up of the swords for 'seeing' & dispatching evil in the unknown. How else would these swords shine on their own when orcs came near?
Side question: Did these swords shine if Trolls, Balrogs or werewolves approached?


What is the significance of a cock crowing? Does it remind you of anything in LotR? In other stories

Well, certainly Peter & the cock crowing three times comes to mind......

The only connection there I can fathom is dawn in both stories & it represents judgement about to fall.














Curious
Gondolin


Apr 29 2009, 10:04pm

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Thoughts. [In reply to] Can't Post

What do you think of my attempt to reformat the last portion of the chapter as free verse?

Brilliant! I wish I had thought of it. Wink

Does it work?

I think so.

Why or why not?

Tolkien, of course, is the brilliant one. There are many of these passages in LotR, and, as far as I can tell, few in The Hobbit. There are some in The Silmarillion, though. These passages beg to be recited, not as a story told to children, but as an epic declaimed by someone like Ian McKellen. Unfortunately, most of them are lost in the movies, since they are narrative, not dialogue.

What was the risk of

What the ...?

Why is this chapter called “The Siege of Gondor”? Why not “The Assault of Minas Tirith”?

I see this as misdirection on Tolkien's part, which I think is what FarFromHome suggested as well. The speed and success of the assault takes us by surprise as it takes the defenders by surprise, and makes the rescue (double rescue, really -- Theoden and then Aragorn) that much more dramatic. A siege of Gondor sounds like something that will take months, if not years, and certainly not one evening.

What were the limitations originally placed on Gandalf's direct confrontation of the Enemy? Does Gandalf press the limits of those limitations in this chapter? Does he cross them? Why or why not? Do those limitations still apply to Gandalf the White? Why or why not? Why didn’t the Prince Imrahil take charge, with Gandalf as his counselor?

I should know this, but I can't remember; were we told of those limitations before now? Or am I remembering things from the appendices and Unfinished Tales? At any rate, Gandalf seems placed in an unusual role here, leading the defense instead of counseling the defenders. Even at Helm's Deep he did not have to assume that role, although he was very active in rounding up help for Theoden. But I'm not sure Gandalf the White is under the same restrictions as Gandalf the Grey.

Gandalf still cannot take on Sauron alone, and it is implied that he might have been defeated by the Witch-king if Rohan had not come, but what else can he do when all other defenders have fled? Of course, in the end Minas Tirith will be rescued by the forces Gandalf set in motion long before this moment, and Gandalf will be prevented (by the Higher Powers?) from taking any more direct part in the action, with much grumbling from him as he tends to Faramir and the others affected by the Black Breath.

I don't know why The Prince Imrahil didn't take charge with Gandalf as his counselor; perhaps he simply wasn't up to the task, or didn't have enough resources against the Witch-king.

Is the deadly dart that hit Faramir an arrow, or some other kind of dart?

Since darts are sent from the walls of Gondor, I think this may be a poetic name for an arrow. Then again, the foreign armies might also use actual darts, perhaps tipped with poison.

How exactly do the Nazgul make grown men flee? Do we just have to write it off as magic, or is there a comparable real-world phenomenon?

Sending the branded heads of captives over the wall is comparable to real-world terrorizing of troops. But I don't think there is a real-world analog for the screech of the Nazgul, although the screech of long-distance artillery fire or missiles does come to mind. I think this is another metaphor come to life, as the Nazgul personify and amplify the terror that can make an army melt away.

Analyze this statement of Denethor’s: “We will burn like heathen kings before ever a ship sailed hither from the West. The West has failed. Go back and burn!’” What does this mean? What does he mean by “heathen”? Who were the “heathen kings”? What was the first ship from the West? What is the West? Is there a real-world counterpart to Denethor’s heathen kings who burn themselves alive?

I suppose he means before the Noldor came to Middle-earth, although the Noldor did not have any reason to rely on the Valar for help. But perhaps those men were considered heathen because they did not know about the Valar, although Tolkien leaves open the possibility that they did know about Eru through other avenues. I find it all rather confusing. Heathen seems like a Christian term.

I think Tolkien may have been making a point about the Primary World, and the conflict between Christian and non-Christian in the Roman Empire. In general, the non-Christian Romans and Greeks had a relaxed attitude towards suicide. Socrates famously chose to drink poisonous hemlock rather than leave Athens. Denethor represents Classical non-Christian Greco-Roman thoughts on the subject, as Theoden and Eowyn and Eomer represent northern European non-Christian thoughts on how to deal with despair (seek death in battle). Aragorn represents a more Christian attitude (never lose faith or seek death).

Since the first circle of the City is on fire, what shadow did Pippin find to cower into?

Maybe something had burned itself out. Or maybe some stone structure remained.

What is the point of loud drum rolls?

Atmosphere. Which is important, since terror is the Enemy's primary weapon. Also, though, the drum rolls should signal the troops.

Why did the fires leap up?

Maybe just because that's what fires do, maybe magic. Tolkien leaves it ambiguous.

Are these fires inside or outside of the walls?

Maybe both. As I understand it, when the Witch-king appears his silouhette is outlined by fire. Maybe the wall is burning, or maybe there are siege engines burning outside the walls.

Why couldn’t the defenders kill the beasts pulling Grond?

Tough beasts, apparently. Maybe armored as well. Possibly magical.

What’s so hideous about a tall, hooded horseman?

It's not the face, it's the aura.

Three strikes for Grond to break the Gate? Was the magic that powerful? If so, was Grond really necessary?

Magic might require Grond to work. Tolkien never really explains his magic. Maybe Sauron put some of his spirit into Grond as he did into the Ring, although presumably not as much.

What forgotten tongue did the Black Captain use?

Perhaps the Black Speech, forgotten by all but Gandalf, perhaps the Witch-king's native tongue, perhaps something else. It's unclear.

Why does the Lord of the Nazgul ride through the Gate first? Why not send hordes of orcs ahead of him? What would Gandalf have done if he had?

Despite the talk about staying behind the troops, the Nazgul usually are on the front lines. It's Sauron who remains in Mordor. But I have a theory that Pippin is more right than he or Denethor knows, and that the Witch-king is channeling his master, as Glaurung at times channeled Morgoth.

Did the Prince Imrahil flee in terror?

If we take the narrator literally he did, although Gandalf glosses over it. Perhaps he was cowering in a nearby shadow like Pippin.

Why is Gandalf on Shadowfax when he waits behind the Gate? What possible advantage can Shadowfax give him in a confined space surrounded by fire?

Shadowfax can fight the horse while Gandalf fights the rider.

Haven’t we seen all this before with the Balrog? Is the Witch-king really the equal of a Balrog? Of Gandalf the White? How so? Wasn’t Gandalf the Grey the equal of all nine Nazgul at Weathertop? Didn’t the Nazgul flee from Aragorn and Glorfindel? Why, then, is the Witch-king so confident?

Why didn’t Sauron lead his army himself? Would the battle have been won if Sauron had been there instead of the Witch-king?


As noted above, I think the Witch-king channels Sauron.

Would Glamdring do the Witch-king any harm if Gandalf hit him with it? If not, why not? How can Glamdring, made by First Age Elves in Gondolin, be any less powerful against the Witch-king than the Barrow Blades the hobbits wield?

Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. We never get a chance to find out.

What is the significance of a cock crowing? Does it remind you of anything in LotR? In other stories?

It's another symbol of hope, of the sun rising above the dark clouds. The cock crowed in Bree as well, I believe, when the Nazgul attacked Crickhollow. It's the traditional signal for ghosts to return to their graves. And it also is found in the Bible, where Peter denies Jesus three times before the cock crows, although I'm not sure how that relates.

How did anyone know the horns were from Rohan? What kind of horns are they?

Probably not bugles. Maybe horns like Boromir's. Rohan may have had a distinctive call -- one of the purposes of horns is to communicate at a distance with recognizable signals.

Did you notice how the timeline shifts back and forth in this chapter? Is that good, bad, or not notworthy at all?

Not all of the chapter is seen through Pippin's eyes. The loose structure of the narrative allows Tolkien to abandon the hobbit's point of view when it serves him. And the high language of the closing paragraphs doesn't sound particularly hobbity.

Do you have any other comments about this chapter?

No, that about covers it.



sador
Gondolin

Apr 30 2009, 7:54am

Post #6 of 9 (774 views)
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A few answers, some to the point [In reply to] Can't Post

At last - the first installment.

What do you think of my attempt to reformat the last portion of the chapter as free verse? Does it work? Why or why not?
O, yes! I wouldn’t go as far as to say that was the reason you were asked to join in this effort, but I was definitely hoping you would.
Last week, you mentioned this section as the one you would chose to read out loud had you been in Vermont; I would have wanted to be there!

What was the risk of
I guess you meant to ask: what was the risk of doing so? In general, breaking a prose paragraph into free verse means imposing your own thoughts and feelings on the author. But that is the risk of any reading.
There is also the general problem of it seeming too archaic and long, and hampering a quicker reading – which is probably why Tolkien kept it as simple prose. But he did write with the rhythm and resonance of poetry.

Why is this chapter called “The Siege of Gondor”? Why not “The Assault of Minas Tirith”?
You surely meant “The Assault on Minas Tirith”, did you not? Anyway, NEB asked this question last time we’ve discussed this chapter, and got some interesting answers, to which I can only add that the siege seems to be directed at Denethor, in a way – perhaps Sauron sees the war as a duel between the two of them, like Denethor does?
And if so – how does this reflect on Gandalf’s strategy?

What were the limitations originally placed on Gandalf's direct confrontation of the Enemy?
The Istari were forbidden to match Sauron’s force by force – at least, so Tolkien says in UT (and I think in the Silmarillion as well). Which might mean they broke their limitations when assaulting Dol Guldur – a question we’ve discussed before.

By the way – when were the Istari conceived as being Maiar? I cannot see Gandalf of The Hobbit as being such, at least not without an effort which I suspect Tolkien didn’t intend for readers.
I clearly remember how Gandalf’s growing in power over the different books – The Hobbit, LotR, the Sil, and in UT there is even a (rejected) speculation that Gandalf was an incarnation of Manwe himself! – these always greatly annoyed me, rather than anything else. It made me feel like, well, since the good guys are stuck, let’s invest Gandalf with more powers; and once they seem too great for a mere wizard, let’s make the order more powerful, and raise Gandalf’s relative status among them!
Of course, if we look at it the other way around – from a ‘Middle-earth studies’ rather than a ‘Tolkien studies’ perspective – we can see in the veiling of Gandalf’s power in the earlier books a lesson about humility for the Great.

Does Gandalf press the limits of those limitations in this chapter? Does he cross them? Why or why not?
Funny – if we accept your theory that the Witch-king was channelling Sauron’s strength, perhaps he was.
But he was saved from doing so, by the intervention of the Valar – the shadow breaking, and the arrival of the Rohirrim. And then, Gandalf was about to commit Earnil’s folly and pursue him to the fields of Pelennor – only to be saved by Denethor’s madness! Yes, the Valar can be ruthless sometimes.

Do those limitations still apply to Gandalf the White? Why or why not?
My previous answer was no more than a flight of fancy, of course. But I wonder about Gandalf’s fight with the Balrog – did these limitations apply to Sauron only, or also to other Maiar? Was Gandalf’s fight with the Balrog a breach of his limits, which only Eru himself could justify – and he did, sending him back?
If so – that might be the reason Gandalf does not raise Gandalf to defend himself from the Witch-king’s sword, like he did from the Balrog’s.

Why didn’t the Prince Imrahil take charge, with Gandalf as his counselor?
Once Denethor passed away, he did – as is said in ‘The Houses of Healing’ and ‘The Last Debate’. So far, they were both equal members of the Council.
In your reply to FarFromHome (I think), you seem to have implied you read Denethor’s words about the Grey Fool as explicitly putting Gandalf in charge of the defence, and that you see it as a point in Denthor’s favour. I’m not sure I agree with this – but I definitely like it.

Is the deadly dart that hit Faramir an arrow, or some other kind of dart?
In ‘The House of Healing’, Prince Imrahil says it was a usual Southron dart.
In my answer to Kimi, I wondered whether Denethor didn’t fear it was a Nazgul weapon, working towards the heart (as the knife-wound Frodo bore).

How exactly do the Nazgul make grown men flee? Do we just have to write it off as magic, or is there a comparable real-world phenomenon?
In Middle-earth, words and languages have got an immense power. It is like Tolkien to believe they do in the Primary world as well (I assume he did believe in transubstantiation, for instance).

Analyze this statement of Denethor’s: “We will burn like heathen kings before ever a ship sailed hither from the West. The West has failed. Go back and burn!’” What does this mean? What does he mean by “heathen”? Who were the “heathen kings”?
Gandalf uses this wierd word too, in ‘The Pyre of Denethor’, and I think he means servants of the Dark Lord. Note that Gandalf says of the Withch-king’s servants that they will slay themselves at his bidding.

What was the first ship from the West? What is the West?
If we accept ‘heathen’ to mean untouched by God’s Grace, it must mean when Orome came to instruct the Quendi at Cuivinien (it could never mean Feanor!) But that means Denethor would be hopelessly confused in his Theology (Orome didn’t come on a ship) and History (no Men existed then).
So it might mean the first time the Numenorean ships touched middle-earth, and the ‘heathen kings’ means those who worshipped Sauron in the Dark Years – ironically, just like Aragorn’s recent ally, who actually cleared the Shouthron fiefs of Denethor’s enemies!

Is there a real-world counterpart to Denethor’s heathen kings who burn themselves alive?
I don’t know; but the official in Kafka’s In_the_Penal Colony comes to mind.

Thanks again for the tremendous effort!

"What is all this uproar in the forest tonight?" - the Lord of the Eagles

(This post was edited by sador on Apr 30 2009, 7:55am)


sador
Gondolin

May 1 2009, 8:08am

Post #7 of 9 (743 views)
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A few answers (second installment) [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I thought I'll cover it all in two posts.
Not a chance of it!
So now I'll answer your questions about the breaking of the Gate.


Since the first circle of the City is on fire, what shadow did Pippin find to cower into?
I’m sure there are quite a few nooks and crannies in the City.
(There are also some crooks and nannies, but that’s beside the point Tongue).

What is the point of loud drum rolls?
It’s a way of saluting, or greeting. In ‘The Great River’ the orcs could only cheer (at least, that’s how I read the ‘fierce voices’ when the Winged Messenger came).

Why did the fires leap up? Are these fires inside or outside of the walls?
Good question! I assume they are fires outside the walls, and they leap up in response to the Witch-king’s approach – like the flames which leapt up from Minas Morgul in response to the lightenings from Gorgoroth, when we rode forth from his Tower.

Why couldn’t the defenders kill the beasts pulling Grond?
Their hide is too thick, I suppose; and probably their heads would be covered by shields, to prevent darts hitting the eyes. Think of Smaug, or Shelob.
But the beasts do get hurt – and it sends them stomping in a furious rage.

What’s so hideous about a tall, hooded horseman?
The simple answer is that of course, it is this hooded horseman which is hideous.
But your question reminded me of the Rider, the guise in which Morgoth haunted the first Elves at Cuivinien.
Is the Black Rider a recurring image for Tolkien? And where did he get the imagery from? From the Four_Horsemen_of_the_Apocalypse?

Three strikes for Grond to break the Gate? Was the magic that powerful?
Was it three? I thought it was four: once with no Witch-kung cry, and three with. I can only suppose three as a magic number was important here.

But this reminds me of Gandalf’s first confrontation with the Balrog, in what might be the most explicit display of magic in LotR – with the Balrog’s spell trying to force the door of the chamber of Mazarbul, and Gandalf to close it.
What was the case here? Did Gandalf try a counter-spell to the Witch-king’s? Was he defeated in this struggle? Or was he afraid the Gate will burst, and hoped to confront the Wiki inside, after all that power went out of him?

If so, was Grond really necessary?
Yes, of coure. Magic needs something physical to work with – and even with some of the Gate’s power unknit, there is still need for brute force.
The Watcher blocked the Westren-Gate of Moria far more effectively then Narvi did.

What forgotten tongue did the Black Captain use?
I used to know, but I forgot the answer. Angelic

As far as I remember, appendix F mentions the actual Black Speech has degenerated by the orcs’ use of it.
I suppose this spell was in the original Black Speech – possibly even the language of Utumno of old.

Why does the Lord of the Nazgul ride through the Gate first?
I can think of five different answers:
1. It is important for him to be the first inside the walls. That would make him truly the champion of Mordor.
2. It will also be a perfect way of ‘getting even’ with Gondor, whose forces destroyed Angmar.
3. It needs to be him – to break all resistance. All will flee before his face – but not before several miserable orcs.
4. And it must be fast – assuming (as I’ve said in my answer to FarFromHome’s post) he has sensed the wind is changing, there is little time to lose.
5. If, as I suggested before, he has confronted already Gandalf’s spell and defeated it – he truly feels it is his hour.
Any, or several of the above – take your pick.

Why not send hordes of orcs ahead of him? What would Gandalf have done if he had?
Oh, he could work up a blast which would send a couple of towers crashing down, or just kill several of them – enough to frighten the others. Not to speak of being able to rally the defenders – as he does in the movie (at least in the EE).
And Beater would be pretty effective against them, if need be (although perhaps not against the Black Captain – but that is a different question).

Did the Prince Imrahil flee in terror?
I suppose so. Or let us say he discreetly repaired to a different theatre of the War.


Why is Gandalf on Shadowfax when he waits behind the Gate?
To be able to get back to Rath Dinen on time.
But Gandalf needs to be everywhere at once, and if he senses the change of wind, and supposes that means some kind of help is coming – it does make sense.

What possible advantage can Shadowfax give him in a confined space surrounded by fire?
Well – the extra hight would be useful if it comes to a duel; the Lord of the Nazgul rides a horse himself.

But note that in LotR, a horse does follow his leader, if the leaders will and courage holds: the ponies do not follow the hobbits into the Barrow-downs, but Arod and the steeds of the Grey Company bear the terror of the Paths of the Dead, and Faramir remains on his horse, even under the shadow of the Nazgul.
Could that be a message to men, too?

Quote

Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror,
unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dínen.

Shadowfax is a symbol of defiance, and withstanding terror.


Whew!
I'll need to finish this on Sunday.

"What is all this uproar in the forest tonight?" - the Lord of the Eagles

(This post was edited by Ataahua on May 3 2009, 8:22pm)


sador
Gondolin

May 3 2009, 12:08pm

Post #8 of 9 (760 views)
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The coming of the Day, before all hope Founders [In reply to] Can't Post

(well, it was originally a Founder's Day thread, wasn't it?)


Whew! I can't believe I've finished. Anyway, here are the last answers to your magnificent discussion:

Haven’t we seen all this before with the Balrog?
No, it’s different. The Balrog wasn’t triumphant, and in it’s ‘hour’, like the Witch-king is. Also, in Khazad-dum Gandalf was fighting not out of mere defiance, but with a clear purpose – to enable the Ringbearer get away safely, even if that meant the uttemost sacrifice.

Is the Witch-king really the equal of a Balrog? Of Gandalf the White?
Well, AinurOlorin is saying every now and then he was clearly inferior, because he was not a Maia. And I’ve answered a few times I’m not sure that’s the only factor we need to take into account.
For instance, in the Battle of Five Armies, Beorn (who in LotR Tolkien decided was a mortal man) achieves far more than Gandalf ever did, or planned to. Now I know that LotR is not always consistent with The Hobbit, but if we have Gil-galad and Elendil fighting Sauron on even terms, and Fingolfin tackling Morgoth himself – I’m not sure the Witch-king need be less powerful than the incaqrnated froms of Balrog or Gandalf, even if originally he was one of the children of Iluvatar, and not of the Ainur.
And that is even without the Witch-king being enhanced by Sauron, or your theory he is actually channelling Sauron’s power.

How so? Wasn’t Gandalf the Grey the equal of all nine Nazgul at Weathertop?
No. the Nazgul were in unknown territory, on a different mission. They were not after Gandalf’s scalp, and even so he barely escaped.
And in ‘Many Meetings’, Gandalf says he has not been measured yet against all the powers in the world, but his time is coming as the Lord of the Nazgul has come forth. Clearly, he sees such a combat as a toss-up, and realises Weathertop was not the real deal.

Didn’t the Nazgul flee from Aragorn and Glorfindel?
When do you mean?

From Aragorn on Weathertop – that depends on what they were after. I always supposed that piercing Frodo’s heart was more important to them than merely killing him – what would they do with his corpse? And why did the pale king use a knife, and not his sword? Aragorn himself attributed more to Frodo’s resistance and invoking Elbereth.
But I agree it would make more sense for the Nazgul to take their time to kill Aragorn and the other hobbits. Maybe they were afraid of the fire, or simply careless. Or they lacked gumption, and with their Lord concentrating on Frodo, they were afraid to undertake more than a holding action.

At the ford of Bruinen – I read it as all the Ringwraiths concentrating on Frodo, and Glorfindel mostly terrorising their horses into the river.

There is the encounter at the Last Bridge, which Glorfindel describes. There, the Nazgul actually did flee from a mere elf (as opposed to a Maia), but once again, they were possibly two of the lesser ones, and more concerned with Frodo.


Why, then, is the Witch-king so confident?
This is known territory, and in his moment of victory.
He also knows the prophecy that no man may destroy him, and probably thinks (as Gandalf seems to think, as implied in his words to Denethor) that this also applies to an Istar incaranted as a man.
And he trusts and believes his Great Lord’s power will give him the victory in this encounter as well.

Why didn’t Sauron lead his army himself?

Denethor answered this very well before, in speaking of great lords’ wisdom; and he’s probably afraid of accidents, like the one which happened last time he left his tower and fought.
It’s possible that had he been less afraid, he would have confronted and roundly defeated the White Council when they attacked Dol Guldur; as it was, he fled - giving the free peoples of Middle-earth another chance to regroup.

Would the battle have been won if Sauron had been there instead of the Witch-king?
Possibly; although I do not see what exactly the difference would be. Maybe Merry’s sword would be unable to defeat the spells defending him?

Would Glamdring do the Witch-king any harm if Gandalf hit him with it? If not, why not?
Of course, we can’t know. But it is a fact (well, you know what I mean) that Gandalf did not draw Glamdring as a response to the Witch-king’s sword, but he did against the Balrog’s.

How can Glamdring, made by First Age Elves in Gondolin, be any less powerful against the Witch-king than the Barrow Blades the hobbits wield?
Well, magic is specific.
Glamdring was made against orcs, balrogs and dragons; but I assume the spells defending the Witch-king would take elven-blades into account, and afford ample protection against them. Sauron probably knew all about them, from back in the times he was chumming with the elven-smiths of Eregion.
On the other hand, the Barrow blades were made specifically against the Witch-king, and probably with help by the elven-smiths of Rivendell (with all Denethor’s recognising them as Arnorian craft).

Another question – would any of the Barrow blades have done the Witch-king the same damage? In ‘Flight to the Ford’, Aragorn implied they couldn’t (although he might have been wrong), and Frodo’s sword was broken by the Witch-king from a distance.
On the other hand, Merry seems to have been possessed by the spirit of the last prince of Cardolan. Could it be that by some strange twist of Fate or Providence – it was Merry who wielded that specific sword, the only one who could damge the Lord of the Nazgul?
And, bearing in mind Elrond’s skills regarding runes – did Elrond realise what these swords were? I suppose so; and I note that he proposed sending Pippin back to the Shire, while allowing Merry to go with Frodo after Gandalf’s first supporting them (which Merry himself, and Sam, remembered otherwise – see my response to Saelind’s thread). Could that be seen as another support to my UUT about Merry’s sword?

What is the significance of a cock crowing?

Quote
Shrill and clear he crowed,
recking nothing of wizardry or war,
welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn.

I couldn’t say it better than the Professor did, and your rewriting of it as free verse does a lot to enhance the effect.

Does it remind you of anything in LotR?
In FarFromHome’s thread, you’ve mentioned the attack on Bree and Crickhollow. And I mentioned Eomer’s attack on the Uruk-hai.

In other stories?
The Gospel, of course – which is what Tolkien meant.

How did anyone know the horns were from Rohan?
I’m sure some people have heard them before. Gandalf definitely did (as late as in Erkenbrand’s charge), and it is him who matters now.

What kind of horns are they?
Do you mean to ask whether they are also of the wild kine of Araw? Maybe; I assume the ancient ones would be, from the times the forefathers of the Eotheod lived in Rhovanion.
Note the connection between Araw (which Denethor mentions, oddly using the Mannish name rather than the Elvish) and Orome, which Theoden is compared to at this very moment – a connection we won’t notice until appendix A.
And come to think of it – did the horns remind Pippin of Boromir?

Did you notice how the timeline shifts back and forth in this chapter?
Yes, of course.

Is that good, bad, or not noteworthy at all?
I think it’s done admirably.

Do you have any other comments about this chapter?
Any? Many!
I’ll just make a few (all but the last one will be formed as questions):
1. Isn’t a wolfshead a stupid way to build a battering-ram? I’m asking because I really don’t know. But what is it supposed to recall – Charcharoth?

2. The pale sword – isn’t the terror it icnspires interesting? What is it supposed to resemble? It brings to mind the long sword laid across the necks of Sam, Pippin and Merry in the Barrow-down – once again, a wonderful irony, as the Barrow blade will return as the Witch-king’s bane. Another question: is this the sword the Lord of the Nazgul bore on Weathertop? Would it have had the same effect on Aragorn?

3. “The hands of men drooped to their sides, and no bow sang”. Doesn’t that remind you of the reactions of Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli to Gandalf, when he is first revealed to them as the White Rider?

4. Nitpicking – Tolkien speaks of “under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed”. Does that mean Castamir the usurper was not considered an enemy?

5. What abyss is prepared for the Witch-king? Or was Gandalf cursing in vain (as his foe says), using empty words (as his words when taken prisoner by Saruman were)?

6. I find it very intersting that after the Gate is destroyed, mount Mindolluin is mentioned as echoing the horns of Rohan. Is there a meaning to it – just like the cock is showing nature’s defiance of the Shadow, so is the mountain? Did Tolkien ever mention a special magic related to this mountain? Or am I reading to much into this?

7. And last – Tom Shippey, in Author of the Century, sees this last encounter, as a prime example of eucatastrophe in LotR. I disagree – I think (see answer no. 2 in this post) there are essentially two eucatstrophes: ‘The Field of Cormallen’ and ‘The Steward and the King’ – which as you yourself have noted (can’t find where), is the proper end of LotR as a fairy-tale.
But there is something of a eucatastrophe here, as far as Pippin is concerned. And in ‘The Pyre of Denethor’, we read how he reacted to it:

Quote

When the dark shadow at the Gate withdrew Gandalf still sat motionless. But Pippin rose to his feet, as if a great weight had been lifted from him; and he stood listening to the horns, and it seemed to him that they would break his heart with joy. And never in after years could he hear a horn blown in the distance without tears starting in his eyes.

Pippin does get his glimpse of heart-breaking joy, probably alone with Sam and Faramir. Quite an interesting person to receive Revelation!



Once again - a final thank-you for this wonderful thread!
And another thank-you to Kimi, FarFromHome, Saelind and Tolkien Forever!

"What is all this uproar in the forest tonight?" - the Lord of the Eagles

(This post was edited by Ataahua on May 3 2009, 8:23pm)


Curious
Gondolin


May 3 2009, 1:36pm

Post #9 of 9 (740 views)
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Thoughts on your questions. [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Isn’t a wolfshead a stupid way to build a battering-ram? I’m asking because I really don’t know. But what is it supposed to recall – Charcharoth?

Battering rams are usually big logs, but sometimes the head is reinforced with metal, sometimes decoratively. I think it could resemble a wolf's head without weakening the effect of the ram -- it doesn't have to be too literal. Why not the head of a ram? Mordor doesn't do sheep.

2. The pale sword – isn’t the terror it icnspires interesting? What is it supposed to resemble? It brings to mind the long sword laid across the necks of Sam, Pippin and Merry in the Barrow-down – once again, a wonderful irony, as the Barrow blade will return as the Witch-king’s bane. Another question: is this the sword the Lord of the Nazgul bore on Weathertop? Would it have had the same effect on Aragorn?

I'm assuming it is a Morgul blade -- hence the terror. Aragorn surprised the Nazgul by not succumbing to terror -- and for me, that is the best reason for the Nazgul retreat. They simply are not used to any resistance.

3. “The hands of men drooped to their sides, and no bow sang”. Doesn’t that remind you of the reactions of Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli to Gandalf, when he is first revealed to them as the White Rider?

Yes.

4. Nitpicking – Tolkien speaks of “under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed”. Does that mean Castamir the usurper was not considered an enemy?

That was a civil war, and Castamir may have won with an insurrection rather than an assault. Also, Osgiliath was the capital at that time. Maybe Castamir never visited Minas Tirith.

5. What abyss is prepared for the Witch-king? Or was Gandalf cursing in vain (as his foe says), using empty words (as his words when taken prisoner by Saruman were)?

This reminds me of Bombadil banishing the Barrow-wight. I think the general idea is that the spirits of Morgoth's servants, including Sauron, the Witch-king, and the Barrow-wight, will eventually be banished to the Void to join Morgoth. They certainly won't be going to the Halls of Mandos.

6. I find it very intersting that after the Gate is destroyed, mount Mindolluin is mentioned as echoing the horns of Rohan. Is there a meaning to it – just like the cock is showing nature’s defiance of the Shadow, so is the mountain? Did Tolkien ever mention a special magic related to this mountain? Or am I reading to much into this?

I do think Mount Mindolluin is holy ground. That's where the seeds of the White Trees are planted, for example. Numenor had a holy mountain too, where the priest-kings prayed. Mount Mindolluin is also purple, a color associated with royalty and very rarely mentioned in LotR. Caradhras is hostile, and Mount Doom is evil, so it makes sense that Mount Mindolluin could be good. Also, it helps explain why Sauron did not take Mount Mindolluin and attack Minas Tirith from above.

7. Is this a eucatastrophic moment? It is a sudden turn. Of course, it doesn't end there. And indeed Rohan does not save the day alone -- not until Aragorn arrives is victory assured, and even then it is only a temporary victory. Still, it is a sudden turn. Then again, we saw this at Helm's Deep as well, and before that when Gandalf returned, and we will see when the wind shifts, and when Merry and Eowyn defeat the Witch-king. There are many such moments on the west side of the Anduin -- and only one, really, on the east side. For Frodo and Sam do not know what is happening in the west -- they do not even know that Gandalf lives. For them, there is only one eucatastrophic moment.

I think I would compare the war in the west to a tide slowly turning, with a number of moments like the one in this chapter, each building upon the previous moment, but none of them enough to stop the tide from returning until the Ring is unmade. Of course in a larger sense, even Sauron's defeat is just a momentary respite from the long decline of history in Middle-earth, and itself just a hint of the ultimate eucastastrophe, which will not come in final form until Eru intervenes and Arda Marred becomes Arda Remade.

 
 

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