Lord of the Rings : Book 1, Chapter 7
In the House of Tom Bombadil
A Discussion Led by Aelric

• Chapter 7 Discussion: Movie Talk and Final Thoughts - Aelric
  This is a very short chapter, but a most descriptive one. The hobbits find their first refuge and it proves to be an adventurous one. And above all, we the readers get to experience and enjoy Tom Bombadil; as the hobbits learn, we also learn. But as movie goers, we understand why Tom is not going to be in the LotR Films. But could it have a place? I don't want to get into what happens in chapter eight, but up until this point, is Tom valuable to the plot? How about character develoment? Could he be made into a stronger character so as to be included in the movies?

• Thanks, Aelric for a most enjoyable discussion!!! - Patty
• Almost forgot to say thank you! - Kimi
  Thank you, Aelric, for a very interesting set of discussions. Who would have guessed we could come up with some new thoughts about Tom and Goldberry?

• Yes! An enjoyable discussion! Hooray for our Steward! - GaladrielTX
• Why Tom and Goldberry can't be in the films - Kimi
  There, felt like writing a controversial title!

• Wait a minute! - Blue Wizard
  I've suddenly had a flash of inspiration.

• An even better idea!!! - Blue Wizard
  I posted that before reading the paper today.

• An interesting phenomenon - Kimi
  I had to check out the net to see who BBT is. I see what you mean.

• Thanks and well done, Aelric! - Eledhwen
  Haven't had time to think about this as much as I would have liked, but the discussion has helped with the enigmas that are Tom and his lady. Ta!
• Yes. Thanks Aelric and those who participated. - septembrist
  It has helped me accept the mysteries of Tom and Goldberry.
• Excellent summation, Steward - Blue Wizard
  Chapter 7 does very little to move the plot, but it lends tremendous depth to the story. We have here a great deal of history, in very abridged form, of this part of Middle Earth, related to the Hobbits in Tom's story. We have a great deal of depth in Tom relating the lives of plants and trees, such that the Hobbits realize, for the first time, that they are the strangers in this land, which they think of as their own. We have a true sense of the "other" in so many ways in Tom's house, with the ulti-layered mysteries of Tom and Goldberry, their identity and purpose and powers. Even the elves had a certain familiarity to the hobbits and the Black Riders appear only to be men to them so far; Old Man Willow, Tom and Goldberry are the first real "surprises" to them.

• Tom and Goldberry - GaladrielTX
  Tom and Goldberry are, for me, a welcome relief from miles of trudging along the road or through the countryside, intermittently hiding from Black Riders. I think the book would have been a bit too bleak without their colorful presence at that point, so I hope that the pace of the movie will make their omission acceptable. I don't want each of the movies to be just two hours of trudging through the wilds with just one or two stops in elven lands to provide a little beauty and depth.
• Ok...combine Goldberry and Tom's characters and play them back in a minor key. I like it!!!! - Patty
• Yeah! - Aelric
  She's got that earthy-crunchy hippy style to her! Sweet!
• Goldberry has that "earthy-crunchy hippy style to her"? - Nenya
  sigh You make her sound like Joan Baez or Calista Flockhart or something. That isn't how I picture Goldberry at all. I'm not even sure I see her as "major babe" material (although I will grant that I'm working from the opposite side of the fence here). I see her as being above all that.

• Whatever.... - Aelric
  IMHO Joan Baez and Calista Flockhart are NO WHERE NEAR what I'm talking about! I'm talking about natural. Let me take you to a Phish show sometime and I'll show you what I mean.

• You tell her Aelric - Blue Wizard
  Joan Baez is all wrong.

• [insert rolling eye emoticon here] - Nenya
  Like Aelric said ... whatever.

• *big raspberry!* : )~ - Aelric

• Yeah, really! - Blue Wizard
  I ask you - Do we give the wimmenfolk here this kind of grief when they start gushing over the male characters and the actors playing them?

• Whatever.... - Nenya
  I'm still trying to figure out what "earthy-crunchy" means.

• This is really pretty simple - Blue Wizard
  We don't know exactly what Goldberry is in Tolkien's cosmology, but we're all pretty certain that she's what the Greeks would call a Naiad.

• Blue, you're amazing! - Malbeth
• How about one of Wagner's Rhine Maidens? - Nenya
  Would that be the same thing, or something different, Blue?
• La meme chose - Blue Wizard
• LOL!! - Malbeth
  So hairy feet aren't sexy? RosieLass will be so disappointed.
• Tom is vital to the book, but not, I think to the film. - Nenya
  Even for those well versed in Tolkien lore, Bombadil remains a mystery. His origins and existence are apart from the mythology that explains and supports the story of the quest to destroy the one ring. While the hobbits have adventure and diversion with Bombadil, very little of a vital nature to the plot line occurs there.

• The Bombadil chapters - Aradan
  One of the main things that the Bombadil chapters achieve in the book is to create a sense of distance between the Shire and Bree. By the time the Hobbits reach Bree, we already feel that they have travelled. If, in the film, we see the Hobbits leaving the Shire and then arrive in Bree in the very next scene, the audience might be left with the impression that Bree is just another outlying part of the Shire, rather like Buckland.

• Yes. I hope . . . - Annael
  that while the movies omit Bombadil, the hobbits still go through the Old Forest and encounter the Barrow-wight. That scene can be changed just a titch to have Frodo manage to free the others. Then Merry can find his knife and they will have had a "growing up" experience.
• Hobbits' development - Malbeth
  I agree about the hobbits' lack of development before Bree. I spite of the dangers they've survived, they are still very careless in the Prancing Pony. They must have driven Strider crazy the first few days!
  
  
• Hmmmm...do you think.... - Aelric
  they would have made a better impression on Aragorn if they hadn't been with Bombadil? If they had stayed on the road and avoided capture, they may have been better prepared, even slightly. Was the visit with Tom somewhat of a hinderance in that respect?
• Yeah, but ... - Nenya
  The whole point was that the Hobbits and Aragorn didn't start out as a mutual admiration society. Each had to earn the trust and admiration of the other. This gave Tolkien an excuse to help unveil parts of Strider/Aragorn's character, and to show how the band of Hobbits matured and developed as they became more caught up in the Fellowship and the quest.

• That's an important point - Blue Wizard
  I think we tend, particularly having already read the books many, many times, to lose sight of the fact that, even through the attack at Weathertop, the hobbits, particularly Sam, are distrustful of Strider and suspect that he is in league with the Black Riders, or maybe even one of them.

• Yeah... - Malbeth
  I love the introduction of Strider. The hobbits don't know whether to trust him, and neither does the reader (well, the first time, anyway). In fact, Sam wasn't really convinced until they met Glorfindel.
• Chapter 7 Discussion: Detail and Description - Aelric
  In re-reading this section a few times, I really began to notice the skill in which Tolkien masters the art of detail and description within a setting. Tolkien's imagery is what draws a lot of his readers (including myself) and it is fantastic throughout the entire story. But here it seemed to take a life of it's own, pulling the reader in until one feels he is actually seated at the table, with white and yellow candles blazing, and Tom and Goldberry dancing about. It is all very dreamlike, unlike any other part of the story except for Lorien.

• I guess all those who, like Tom, are so in tune with the earth... - Patty
  are vegetarians. Couldn't help noticing that at Gildor's "table" and again now at Bombadil's there is NO meat. Honey, cream, bread, cheese...would this satisfy hobbits used to a good coney?
• "Looking ahead" I see they score some real food at the Pony... - Patty
  it must be that the etereal elves and whoever or whatever Bombadil and Goldberry are can exist on just cheese, bread, apples and cream. Nuts to that.
• I'd say that the Hobbits - Blue Wizard
  were pretty close to the earth, and were pretty fond of bacon. Come to think of it, the Hobbit diet seems to include of all of the major food groups - bacon, beer and tobacco.

• DOH!! with sprinkles, can't forget the sprinkles. - wandering
• Tsk tsk, Blue . . . - Annael
  You left out ice cream.
• Stewed rabbit, too. - Malbeth
• I almost forgot - Blue Wizard
  Sam mentions chips (ie french fries) to Gollum, another of the basic food groups.

• Tolkien in general - RosieLass
  This comment isn't specifically related to this chapter (sorry) but one of the things that always blew me away about JRRT is his meticulous attention to detail. Especially things that I don't know squat about, like plants and flowers and stuff. But not in so much minutiae that you felt like you were reading a text book.

• I agree, RosieLass! We have a name for that: - Kimi
  The "Flint Chipping" phenomenon. Some years ago we read "The Clan of the Cave Bear". The author had obviously done vast amounts of research into, among other things, how to chip flint, and wanted to share her knowledge. It was interesting, for a while. But page after page... As you say, it begins to sound like a text book.

• Advice to writers - Aradan
  I can't remember who originally said this, but I can assure you that it was a highly respected writer.

• I think you're right about Tolkien - Kimi
  He researched details such as what time sunrise would be on particular dates, and how moonrise relates to phases of the moon, but the "big" things were already well and truly within his knowledge.

• In my own writing I need to be very careful about this. - Annael
  My job is to take medical stuff & turn it into patient education handouts. I'm always asking myself "is this MINK - 'more information than I need to know!'?"
• The House of Tom Bombadil / Lorien / Rivendell - Blue Wizard
  Tom and Goldberry may not be elves, but their house has elements of the faerie realm common to all three places. The most obvious, as people have already mentioned, is the effect of stopped or slowed time. In each place, the Hobbits lose all track of time; hours, days and even weeks pass swiftly and unnoticed by them. The effect seems to be most prominent in Lorien, where an entire month passes unknown to them. This is a common part of the folklore of mortals who enter the faerie realm, with many variations on a similar story. The mortal enters a fairy ring, or dwelling, and by partaking of food there they become captive. Meals are prominent features of all three places. The mortal believes that a single night has passed, but when they leave, they find that seven years have gone by in the outside world.

• Fairy characteristics - jehovoid
  i read a poem by john keats, la belle dame sans merci, that on some level has these same characteristics of food and song and losing track of time. it's more dramatized because keats is that kind of person, but it strengthens your arguement, blue.

• Hmmm, I know this is Hobbit and not LOTR proper ... - Nenya
  Where does Beorn's home (if it had a name it escapes me at the moment) fit in with all this? It was like and yet unlike Bombadil's home, a darker and more ominous place, yet still a haven from the wilds. Beorn, like the elves and Bombadil, has an "timeless" feel about him, and is very much a mysterious unknown to all but Gandalf. There may not have been song and that "timeless" aspect that Blue mentions, but it almost seems like it merited mention in this thread.
• I agree about Beorn - Blue Wizard
  Beorn, with his ability to change form from a man to a bear, is a character who definitely fits in with discussion of Tom Bombadil. And, he's not just in the Hobbit. Gloin tells Frodo that it is by the Beornings that the East-West Road is kept open, though he complains of their high tolls. And Gilmi remarks that the lembas are better than the honey-cakes of the Beornings. So, Beorn isn't just some character unique to The Hobbit; Tolkien intends to firmly include him as a part of the overall pattern of Middle Earth.

• Probably just a minor point, but - GaladrielTX
  at both Tom and Beorn's houses, some of the hobbits have troubled dreams and are told not to worry about noises outside. *Shrugs* Just thought it was an interesting coincidence.
• As an aside... - Aelric
  You amaze me, Blue. Personally, since I have been here (October), my depth of knowledge of LOTR has increased by leaps and bounds, and you, my friend, have played a HUGE part in that. I would like to thank you for your insights and wonderfully intelligent comments over the past seven months.

• Just don't get too enthusiastic with praise and go confurring honorary titles on him... - Patty
• No problem, Patty! - Aelric
  I could never top yours anyway except to put the word Royal infront of it! : )~
• Call me anything - but please don't call me. . . - Blue Wizard
  late for dinner.
• HaHaaaa...But it's true, Blue... - Patty
  Your posts are most insightful, learned and thought provoking...that's really what I wanted to say a few weeks ago when, too enthusiastic, I posted that disaster. Thanks for sharing your ideas..they broaden our understanding of Tolkien.
• Living in the past - Malbeth
  You got me thinking about preserving and/or living in the past at Rivendell and Lorien. Do you think the fading of the elves in Middle-earth is related to always thinking of the past rather thean the future? Is this an inevitable consequence of immortality?
• Time flows at a different speed for elves... - Aradan
  ...because of their exceptionally long life span. It seems that when mortals enter those places where the elves have the greatest influence (Rivendell, Lorien) their own sense of time slows down to match that of their hosts. The same seems to be true of Bombadil's House, although, as you say, he is not an elf; but he is "eldest". Perhaps this "timelessness" is, in part, a consequence of a very long life span.

• You rule, Blue. (Sorry, but I had to say it...you continually impress me with your insightful, thoughtful responses.) - EowynII
• I see these places--Rivendell, Tom's House, Lothlorien--as oases... - EowynII
  ...of light (notice how much light is discussed/described--fire, candlelight, sunlight) and magic in a world that is increasingly possessed by men (for better and for worse), a world that is darkening...for instance, this is clearly shown in the way JRRT describes Tom's house and environs--the river bubbling, the white path, the light and good wholesome food, all surrounded by things threatening and/or evil (Old Forest, Barrowdowns)...Tom's house is a place of respite, somewhere to rest and gather strength, of replenishment and cleansing, and of learning, so that one can go on....
• The Shire too . . - Annael
  I see the Shire as a sunny, bright, ordered oasis in the wilderness as well. And I also see the Hobbits as a bit out of sync with the world of men, although in their case it's more obliviousness than a choice to turn away and dwell in the past. Still, it explains in part why the Hobbits felt so at home and relaxed in Rivendell and Lorien. Contrast that with Pippin in Minas Tirith.
• Tolkien's Imagination - Aradan
  I am sure that Tolkien's imagination was primarilly visual. I beleive that he could actually see these places in his mind's eye, just as though they were real places, and then described in words what he was looking at.

• I recall reading that. . . - Blue Wizard
  Tolkien, as he was writing these stories, had already drawn the maps, at least in rough, because he needed to see the maps in order to put together the story. And, in filling in the details about the positions of the stars, that he took celestial maps from 1942 and followed them precisely - so precisely that, for example, it is noted in The Encyclopedia of Arda that the elves in Gildor's company began singing just as Menelgavor (Orion) appeared over the rim of the world, which on September 15 would be at 1:10am GMT (which we can, I suppose, take to be the same as Shire Mean Time).

• Out of time - Malbeth
  I agree with Lorgalis about adding Rivendell to the mix. All three are timeless in many ways. The first thing I thought of was the way the hobbits would seem to drift into some kind of dreamlike state while listening to a song or tale, and suddenly realize they had no idea how much time had passed; minutes, hours, days; they had no idea. Sorry about that sentence - two semi-colons??? That can't be good!
• There is a third similar place... - Lorgalis
  ...which is called Rivendell.
  I have always seen the whole thing in the chronology of light following darkness and so on. There are minor light situations, like at farmer Maggots place, Bree etc.

• Chapter 7 Discussion: History - Aelric
  The bulk of this chapter takes place in Tom B's sitting room. The hoobits are made comfortable and are content. Tom relays much to them of how the world was and is, of nature and its ways, and somewhat of the history that surrounds them. This is great info for the hobbits and ties Tom to the rest of the story for the reader. How does this serve the hobbits later on? Does it effect their minds sets when dealing with future events (ie, Old Man Willow vs Fangorn)?
• Widening horizons - Aradan
  The shire is very enclosed and inward looking, as are nearly all its inhabitants. Scince the hobbits left the Shire, their horizons have been growing a a little wider with each chapter. Now with Tom's tales, their horizons are not just expanding geographically, but historically, too.
  It is the first indication to the reader (other than hints in the prologue) that the Shire and its environs has a history that does not necessarilly only include hobbits.
  
  
• Tom's tales - Blue Wizard
  In last week's discussion, I said that, in some ways the reaction of Merry and Pippin to Fangorn Forest and Treebeard is inexplicable absent these chapters. Tom's tales are an important part of that. The hobbits understand, after listening to Tom, the lives of the trees in particular. In some very important ways, having that understanding removes much of their fear.

• Part of something larger. - Annael
  Frodo has already gotten a glimpse of the larger story he's fallen into; I think this is where the other hobbits begin to get the same world-expanding ideas. Although it takes Sam until Mordor to get it.
• But when Sam finally gets it... - Malbeth
  ...I think he "gets it" better than anyone else. His musings about what it was like for the people inside the old tales, and the fact that all these stories are interconnected, is one of my favorite passages.
• Indeed! - Aelric
  That is one of my favorite passages! I think the others "get it", but they don't look at it the same way Sam does. He is a Romantic. He wants to be in the old stories and then suddenly realises, he IS in one of those stories. At the end Sam does see it more clearly than any of them.
• I want to hear about Sam, dad! - Eledhwen
  I love that bit too. There are huge numbers of references to the larger history throughout really - especially re Gandalf, and how he dropped out of the story (Merry and Pippin to Treebeard). But Sam really sums it all up.
• Chapter 7 Discussion: Dreams - Aelric
  After traveling for only a week, the hobbits have endured hardships and have been hunted. And seemingly by chance, they come across Bombadil and they are safe at least for a couple of days. They are given food and rest, and afforded the chance at their last peaceful night's sleep until Rivendell. Yet their dreams are disturbed by visions: Pippin and Merry of one sort, Frodo of quite another and Sam the log.

• Dreams theory - Pteppic
  I just had a thought(gasp!). The evil creatures around Tom and Goldberry's house (Old Man Willow, barrow wights and such) all seem to have power over sleep. Could it be that some malicious "beast" outside the house was influencing the dreams of the hobbits, drawing on their biggest fears? Merry and Pippin were obviously pretty shaken by their experience with Old Man Willow, and Frodo was very concerned about Gandalf's whereabouts, so that could account for their dreams. Sam was (if we go along with this theory) a tougher nut to crack. This could be because Sam wasn't that afraid of anything specific. As Blue says: "he now knows that he has some part to play, although he does not know what it is. And that is sufficient for Sam." Sure, there probably were aspects of the future that worried him, but those would be vague, due to their being in the future.

• Goldberry's warning . . . - Annael
  not to heed noises, and that nothing could pass within the doors or windows, was interesting. Were folks who stayed at Bombadil's prone to scary dreams or visions, and if so, why?
• The house of Tom Bombadil... - Pteppic
  ...is surrounded by danger. There're the barrow wights, the trees, and probably other things we never learn about. I'm with Blue on this one. I think Goldberry is simply assuring them that whatever lurks outside the walls can't reach them.
• Scary dreams - Malbeth
  Tom could read the "dark and strange" thoughts of the trees, and probably the other living things, of the Old Forest. Maybe these thoughts affect the dreams of those sleeping nearby. Of course, it would be normal for Merry and Pippin to have nightmares about Old Man Willow, but Goldberry's warning seems to indicate something more.
• I think she understood... - Aradan
  ...the trepdition that the hobbits must be feeling on what was their first ever trip outside the Shire.
• Hobbit nature! - Eledhwen
  She knew they'd probably dream, and was merely reassuring that it was only dreams and nothing tangible could come in.
• I don't think she was referring to dreams necessarily - Blue Wizard
  But rather, she knew that the trees and wights and other beings might approach the house in the night, but could not enter. Also, I think that she was speaking of the mysterious activities and duties which she and Tom must perform. Tom awoke before Goldberry to do something, probably connected with the change of seasons as the gathering of water lillies. And Goldberry herself is connected with the rain and dew - whether she causes it is something of a mystery.
• Dreams - Blue Wizard
  Interesting contrast between the four hobbits and their dreams.

• Not so much simplicity... - MikeyMonty
  but rather Sam's eminent practicality and steadfastness. Sam isn't going to lose sleep over long off ethereal dangers, he's going to take his rest where he can get it, that's the practical thing to do. He'll worry about those dangers when he comes to them; no need being anxious about them now.

• "Almost exactly what I thought myself" (to quote Merry) - EowynII
  I could try to elaborate, but it would probably be redundant.
• Interesting. - Eledhwen
  I think you're probably right about Frodo trying to find Gandalf, and also about Gandalf and Galadriel attempting to contact Frodo, especially as at the end of ROTK the three Rings communicate telepathically. Frodo's dreams always seem Elvish in some way. I love the poem in 'The Adventures of TB' about the lonely beach - haven't got it on me, but it's the one where there's a note subtitling it 'Frodo's Dreme'.
• When I first started reading LOTR - Bard
  I thought that Sam was stupid and therefore too stupid too dream. It didn't help that I imagined him like a Sam I knew at school who had ginger curly hair and had a bit of a lisp.

• Sam is hardly "stupid". - Nenya
  Though I think I know what you are trying to say. Sam is stolid and somewhat unimaginative. Same is practical. Sam would discount his dreams in deference to real life experience. I think Sam didn't dream because Sam didn't need to - he alone was completely following his heart on this quest as friend and servant to Frodo.
• Yes, - Bard
  I was 8 when I read LOTR so I hope you can forgive me for not understanding some of its subtleties and themes when I was that old. Re reading it has helped clear most of them.

• Chapter 7 Discussion: Who the $%$^&* is Goldberry?! - Aelric
  The Hobbits looked at her in wonder; and she looked at each of them and smiled. "Fair lady Goldberry!" said Frodo at last, feeling his heart moved with a joy that he did not understand. He stodd as he had at times stood enchanted by fair elven-voices; but the spell that was now laid upon him was different: less keen and lofty was the delight, but deeper and nearer to mortal heart; marvellous and yet not strange. "Fair lady Goldberry!" he said again. "Now the joy that was hidden in the songs we heard is made plain to me.

• The Mysterious Cameo of the Embodiment of Nature- - Robin Smallburrow
  My speculation lies in three areas, all covered my members of this esteemed board.

• There is a bit more information - Blue Wizard
  about Goldberry in "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil", one of Tolkien's poems:

• Does anyone know..? - Aradan
  ...if "The adventures of Tom Bombadil" were written before or after the Lord of the Rings? (Publishing date doesn't count, because the poems could have sat in a box under the professor's bed for years before being sent to the publisher.) My theory is that Bombadil and Goldberry belong to an earlier, more flippant, phase of the professor's writings and he simply didn't know how to incorporate them into his overall vision.
  
  
• Well, who the $%$^&* is the River-woman? - Idril Celebrindal
  If you're going to discuss Goldberry's origins, you also need to discuss her mother's. Goldberry is clearly identified in LOTR and the Adventures of Tom Bombadil as the River-woman's daughter.

• Mysteries - Malbeth
  Idril, I've had the same thought today - that they are SUPPOSED to be mysteries; maybe even to Tolkien himself. One of the beauties of LOTR, especially pre-Silmarillion, were the many references to past events and people that the reader didn't really know much about. The fact that was such a deep history that the characters knew but we the readers didn't, somehow added something, at least for me.

• There isn't. - Eledhwen
  I don't think Tolkien knew himself what Tom and Goldberry were.
• But what does it tell us? - Lorgalis
  In the end we see, they should not be Aule and Yvanna, because they have been living near the river and Old Man Willow far too long to be in Valinor all the time as well.
  What strikes me is the other part in this chapter, when it comes to Tom telling stories about old times. He was already there when the elves went westwards!

• I'm of the "Maia" idea.... - Jester_rm
  or another spirit similar to the Maia. Maiar were of different strengths, as were the Valar...One may be more powerful than another. If Tom was a Maia, his power may exceed that of the rings to corrupt him. Although I believe that Gandalf says that he would put it aside and forget it....could that be the extent of the rings ability to influence him? Not strong enough to corrupt, but strong enough to misdirect?

• Maia, I'm with you, Jester, and a lesser one at that.. - Patty
  see my post below about his being "forgotten" by Elrond to be bid to the council.
  TB and wife have always been my least favorite of all Tolkien. I don't mind enigmas, but if they are going to be so light-weight as to sing tra la lillie all day then they need to be fleshed out.
• Discussion Thread - Aelric
  Go for it!
• I love Malbeth's comments below. - Kimi
  I think Goldberry is a water nymph. Descriptions of her frequently use water imagery:

• Above all, they're natural. - Malbeth
  Reading this chapter more analytically than before, I noticed something for the first time. Virtually every description of colors or sounds concerning Goldberry or Tom use comparisons with nature. For example:

• Definitely. - Eledhwen
  If anyone's had the time or patience to read the 'Faerie Realm of ME' that Rue and I wrote, then you'll see that we decided that Goldberry was effectively a 'faery'. Not of the same kind as our hero Isheen (he's a Brownie), but nevertheless of the faerie world and not of ours. Here's what Rue wrote when we were discussing this originally:

• Reference Thread - Aelric
  Post any references here so that everyone can get a look at them. Please state where the reference comes from! Thanks!
• Chapter 7 Discussion: Who the %&*$(% is Tom Bombadil?! - Aelric
  "Fair lady!" said Frodo again after awhile. "Tell me, if my asking does not seem foolish, Who is Tom Bombadil?"

• What does Tom look like? - Blue Wizard
  We have a pretty good description of his clothing, and his brown beard, and his blue eyes, and ruddy complexion, but also of his approximate size, ie. bigger than a Hobbit - taller, not necessarily stouter, but not as large as one of the big people. Somewhere, and I can't remember where, I read that Tom is supposed to be something like 4 feet tall and 3 feet broad. Which is quite a stout fellow, and quite a sight to be dancing and capering about in his boots! (Of course, the implication here is that the typical Hobbit, who is quite a bit shorter, and NO STOUTER - is more or less round (just like Carcaroth's Bounce a Baggins Game, I guess).

• Tom's vital statistics - Kimi
  Here's a thought: if we take "broad" to mean his circumference instead of his diameter, we get someone who's plump rather than of cartoon dimensions. 36" round the waist would put him just within the safe guidelines for heart disease. All that unhealthy food, eh?
• Whoa! I'm thinking Cartman! - GaladrielTX
  Respect mah authoritah!

• I am not fat! I'm big boned! - Blue Wizard
  Whoa Dude, the bone in your a** must be HUGE!
• Doesn't sound plausible. - Eledhwen
  He'd be practically a cube. Perhaps someone measured wrong?
• "Somewhere, and I can't remember where" - Kimi
  In my message below?

• Dohhhh! - Blue Wizard
• Tee hee! - Kimi
  Blue, a new piece of foolishness for your collection: the Leader of the Opposition, having lost the last election, wants to re-brand her party. The description she's come up with:

• Quick random thought..I think that Tom is to LOTR what Bilbo's song in the Hall of Fire is to Rivendell--"seems to fit somehow" (to paraphrase Frodo) - EowynII
• Bombadil thoughts - Kimi
  Your "Reference" and "Discussion" threads have been abandoned, Aelric! This is a mixture of both, anyway.

• 2 ways of looking at this - Hengist
  one is what is he in the story what did tolkien mean him to be - lets look at all the forgotten scripts that jrrt wrote

• Who is Tom Bombadil? - Blue Wizard
  Tom is the Green Man, Jack in the Wood, Puck, Robin Goodfellow, and known in many cultures, and by many names.

• About Puck - GaladrielTX
  I can't quite reconcile Puck with the character of Bombadil. Perhaps I am not as familiar with the figure of Puck et al. as you are, having only read of him in A Midsummer Night's Dream. Yet, as Shakespeare presents him, at least, he's a "knavish sprite" who plays pranks and is always meddling in people's affairs. He is also subject to Oberon and Titania, whereas Bombadil is Master. Do other legends portray Puck differently?
• Tom is a square peg in a round hole. - Annael
  I believe that Tom is a "cameo appearance" by a character Tolkien created apart from his "Middle-earth" work, but liked so much he wanted to plop him into the story. He probably did this in the early stages when the story was still just a sequel to "The Hobbit," before the "tale grew in the telling" and became the much darker tale rooted in the history and languages Tolkien had been developing for so long. When he rewrote the story backwards to make it all consistent, he couldn't take Tom out because it would mean redoing several chapters, and he couldn't come up with any explanation that fit into his invented world, so - he copped out. I don't think Tom can be made to fit; maybe that's what Goldberry was trying to tell us.
• Agreed! - Pteppic
  Some additional info on Tolkien's motivation for keeping Tom in, though: In the first 1954-letter Kimi quoted (which btw was dated 25. april - my birthday, hehe! - and written for Mrs. Naomi Mitchison) He says:

• Ah, the writing process . . . - Annael
  How's this: Tolkien may have stuck Tom in on a whim, but once Tom got in there, he took on additional importance and couldn't be deleted without leaving something essential out of the story.

• This what I believe as well... - Aelric
  Tom is an anomaly within ME. Tolkien liked the character and placed him in LOTR for personal affection.
• Re: Cameo - Malbeth
  If that's the case, JRRT would probably have gotten a kick out of reading this thread with all of our speculations ;)
• I lready expected you discussing alone... - Lorgalis
  The question of "Who is Tom Bombadil?" is a really nice one. I can not remember having read anything about him in the Simarillion or the Unfinished Tales.

• Re: Aule and Yavanna - Malbeth
  I'm of two (or more) minds regarding whether T&G might be Valar (see post below), but Aule in particular doesn't seem to me to match up with Tom's personality. Aule was a smith, a maker of artificial things, where Tom is utterly natural. Also, Aule is proactive; he couldn't standa waiting for the Children of Iluvatar and thus created the dwarves, while Tom is more patient. Finally, I would think that Aule as Tom would be fascinated by the ring. Rings of power trace back to Celebrimbor, pupil of Feanor, pupil of Aule.

• True, - GaladrielTX
  and Goldberry doesn't seem much like Yavanna. Yavanna is deeply troubled by the hurts that Morgoth and his servants inflicted on the living things of Arda. Goldberry seems much too carefree to be the same entity. (Although I did notice on this read that both she and Yavanna wear green dresses. Coincidence? Hmm.)
• Posting on the wrong thread again! - GaladrielTX
  I should have posted this above with all the *@@&()%%@# Goldberry stuff.
• Discussion Thread - Aelric
  Ok, debate away!
• One rather quirky idea that struck me: - Kimi
  Tom says:

• hehe neat idea - wandering
• My jumbled thoughts on Tom (and Lady Goldberry) - EowynII
  I've never been sure what to think. I've read in numerous places that Tolkien disliked allegory of any kind, so this leads me to think that Tom does not necessarily represent Eru, or even one of the Valar. That being said, however, I will state that Goldberry's description of Tom does lead one to believe that he is an entity of the highest order...and if you think about it, isn't God really at one mysterious and familiar? (This can apply to Goldberry too, per Frodo's reaction to her.) Besides, Tolkien was a staunch Catholic, and I can't help but think that his faith may have somewhat pervaded his writing, even if he didn't want to admit it. Still...after reading the Silmarillion, it seems odd that Eru would come to Middle Earth...and also that he would have a "spouse", being at once surrounded by Ainur but also lofty and solitary...so....still, Tom mentions "his making and his doing"...and...Elrond speaks of Tom reverently, but no as if he was Eru, or God, if you will....ACK. What am I saying?

• What I think about Tom. - Eledhwen
  I don't subscribe to the Maia view and I'm not at all sure about the Valar one. I'll have to think about that. When I brought this up in Barliman's, Gandalf there suggested that Tom is, quite simply, the Earth. He is of it, is it, what you like, but he is a separate being, with no relation except in shape to anyone else. This would explain why the Ring has no power over him - he is too great. If he were Maia or Valar, I think it would - remember Sauron is a Maia and the Ring has power over him, because he made it; and Morgoth was ensnared by love of power. The Ring affects everything but Tom. Therefore he must be greater, more primeval, and after all, the Earth, Arda itself, was there first.
• But later on, in the council of Elrond... - Patty
  when he is mentioned I believe Elrond actually says something to the extent of..oh yeah, I forgot about him...I don't think, if he were all that powerful he would have been forgotten to be bidden to the council..at least Galadriel wasn't there because she was "forgotten".
• True. - Eledhwen
  But Elrond is thinking about people - Sauron, the Elves, the Dúnedain, and so on. In times of crisis not many people remember the lands we live in, and certainly never separate from the peoples who live there. Tom worries about, and in my theory, IS nature, and he cares little for people. So it's natural that each party would forget the other.
• Yes, but Galadriel and the others of the White Council - GaladrielTX
  took a more active interest in the affairs of ME, compared with Tom. It doesn't seem likely that Tom would leave the Old Forest for the Council of Elrond. That doesn't mean he wasn't more powerful than the greatest elves.
• No, but my point is that Elrond had actually forgotten him. It doesn't... - Patty
  seem likely that he could be a power and that Elrond would have forgotten him.
• Yes, but - GaladrielTX
  I suspect that, although powerful, Bombadil might have slipped Elrond's mind as an invitee simply because he'd never really been involved in the affairs of the wider world. He's not one of the "usual suspects" that Elrond would naturally think of to call upon.

• Usual suspects? I like it ! :o) !! If only... - Patty
  the author of Casablanca had known when he wrote that how often it would be sooooo appropriate !!!!!
• "He is" and I am. - septembrist
  I have always been struck by Goldberry's response to Frodo's question of Bombadil's identity. It is exactly the same response that God gives to Moses' question - "I Am". It is a statement of existence with no beginning or end, a statement of timelessness. Thus, I am led to believe that Tom is Valar if not Eru himself who is master but does not possess.
  I am afraid I cannot offer any supporting proof or references. I only have my LOTR and my Sil is packed in a box somewhere.
  I eagerly await everyone's comments.
• How they "feel" to the hobbits... - Malbeth
  Are they Valar, Maiar, or some other such 'holy' being? How would a Vala or a Maia seem to a hobbit? Here's how Frodo felt about Goldberry, and it probably would apply to Tom as well.

• Reference Thread - Aelric
  This is just so folks can go over some references that they may not have. Save your is discussion for above. : ) Please tell us where your reference comes from!
• My ideas, with a reference this time.... - Jester_rm
  Don't usually use references, and this one is not "canon", but it coincides with my impressions.

• Thanks for the info, Kimi - Malbeth
  The "cameo appearance" theory is looking stronger and stronger.
• From "J.R.R. Tolkien: A biography": - Kimi
  "Among other stories begun but soon abandoned was the tale of Tom Bombadil, which is set in 'the days of King Bonhedig' and describes a character who is clearly to be the hero of the tale: 'Tom Bombadil was the name of one of the oldest inhabitants of the kingdom; but he was a hale and hearty fellow. Four foot high in his boots he was, and three feet broad. He wore a tall hat with a blue feather, his jacket was blue, and his boots were yellow.'

• A few references from "Letters": - Kimi
  (1937) “Tom Bombadil, the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside”

• Chapter 7 Discussion: Postponed until tomorrow : ( - Aelric
  Sorry guys, today is shaping up to be a horrendously busy one. I have the questions written out, I just don't think I'm going to be able to post them today. So to eliminate confusion, I will begin the discussion tomorrow (Tuesday May 2nd).

• We will await your convenience, oh steward! Be well! - Patty
• Think we have to accept this. - Lorgalis

Lord of the Rings : Book 1, Chapter 8
Fog on the Barrow-downs
A Discussion Led by Aradan

• Chapter VIII: Final Conclusions - Aradan
  The Hobbits continue on their journey, and the landscape continues its gradual transformation from the familiar (the Shire) to the unfamiliar. Now that they’ve reached the Barrow Downs, even the birds are different.

• Thanks to all of you! - Aradan
  I’ve really enjoyed it, and I’d like to do another chapter some time… but not just yet!

• Most enjoyable , Aradan, and thanks to everyone for the additional insights! - Patty
• Wow! These chap[ter reviews are bringing up a lot of great points! - Robin Smallburrow
  It makes rereading the books a totally different experience!

• Very well done, Aradan! Thanks to you and - Kimi
  all contributors. It's been enlightening, and fun.
• Excellent job Aradan - Blue Wizard
  Thank you for leading this week's discussion, and thanks to everyone who participated this week. It's really amazing how much "meat" is really in chapters like this one which, at first blush, seem not to have that much to do with the larger story.
• Well done this week, Aradan! *applause!* - Aelric
  I will miss Tom not being in the movies, but I think PJ can omit him easily without causing any major damage to the plot. The swords will come from Aragorn in Bree (that's my guess anyway) or else somewhere along the line. Alas for Tom Bombadil whom I love!

• Yes, a big thank you to everyone for the past two weeks' discussion! - Malbeth
  This section from the Old Forest to Bree has never been one of my favorites, but these last couple of weeks discussing Tom, Goldberry, barrows and their wights, etc. have been absolutely fascinating. I've gained many new insights thanks to all of you folks, and am really looking forward to future chapters.
• Thanks to Aradan and all for the enlightening discussion! - septembrist
• Nice summing up, Aradan! - Eledhwen
  Good week's discussion, too. I especially enjoyed wondering about the nature of the wights. Thank you!

• Yes, indeed! - GaladrielTX
  Thanks for all the info about the real barrows. I vaguely remember hearing that some still existed, but I probably would never have seen one or learned any more about them if it hadn't been for you. Fascinating stuff.
• Chapter VIII Discussion: "Tom’s country ends here: he’ll not pass the borders." - Aradan
  Could Tom have continued with the Hobbits to Bree (or even further) if he had wanted to, or was there some something that tied Tom to that particular piece of countryside and prevented him from ever leaving? (A desire to return to Goldberry accepted, of course.)
• One more thought about Goldberry - Blue Wizard
  Tolkien writes, both in LOTR and in the earlier poetry, that Tom found Goldberry in the river and took her from her mother to his house. But Goldberry, as some kind of naiad (or at least whatever it is in Tolkien's world inspired the Greek notion of naiads) is, in the ambiguity of her species, we may well imagine to be as much the seducer as the seduced. In some of the Greek myths of naiads and other kinds of nymphs, a mortal who becomes the consort of a nymph may become bound to her world. Part of the whole mythology of nymphs is that they inhabit a particular lake, or river, or tree, etc... So, perhaps by taking Goldberry has his wife, Tom has become confined to the Withywindle Valley.
• I though that... - Bard
  He was probably known in Bree. He knew the Prancing Pony and who owned it, that means he either went there or someone from Bree knew him and visited him. The Breelanders would probably think of him as some eccentric who lived in the hills.
• Who is the real "Eldest"? - Ugly Troll
  I seem to remember both Bombadil and Treebeard referred to as the eldest. I lean towards Bombadil because he said something like he was there before the forests, but my memory might be off. I do know that later in the trilogy, Treebeard is always referred to as "Eldest".
• I think we need to indulge in a little sophistry - Kimi
  The logic goes something like:

• If Bombadil is a Maia, why can Gandalf - Ugly Troll
  be overthrown by Sauron's power with the ring, but Tom could resist if the 'power is in the earth itself.'

• I don't actually think Tom B. is a Maia - Kimi
  That was just an example of what he might be. I think he's an enema... sorry, enigma.

• I believe the Maiar all had different levels and types of power. - GaladrielTX
  For example, Saruman was a Maia but he pretty much pales in comparison to Sauron's strength. So who's to say that Tom isn't just a Maia over whom the Ring just has no power?

• Well, Yvanna made the Ents - Blue Wizard
  after she found out about Aule making the Dwarves.
  I tend to think that Bombadil, whatever he is, is older than Treebeard.
• I always got the feeling . . . - Annael
  . . . that Tom is also saying "grow up!" to the hobbits. In a kindly way, he's warning them that they have to learn to rely on themselves much more, be more careful. And indeed, Frodo gets the message & tells the other hobbits that they have to be careful at Bree, to call him "Mr. Underhill," etc.

• Yes, I've always had a similar feeling. - Gaffer
  (let me apologize in advance, though I'm actually writing this sentence after the fact. Bombadil is actually one of my favorite speculative subjects, and I tend to ramble, as I have done here.)

• My previous remark aside, I do love your - Kimi
  point about Tolkien's not being a "typical" author, and that being one of the reasons we love his work so much. Thank God (and Rayner Unwin) that LOTR was permitted to be published in the form it was.
• Well, you're free to interpret however you want to, - Kimi
  of course, but Tolkien did state categorically that in his opinion Bombadil was not Eru.

• Elrond says - Blue Wizard
  that he knew of Iarwain Ben-adar(if Tom is indeed the same person) walking abroad in the forests of Beleriand an age ago, so it is clear that Tom can leave the borders which he has set for himself. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that he can change his mind about what his borders are. As Septembrist points out, Gandalf said that, if invited to the Council, he would not have come - not that he could not have come. He is simply not interested in what is going on in the rest of the world - in the end Gandalf says that Tom would not me much interested in anything that transpired in the whole adventure - except for the Ents.

• Not bothered. - Eledhwen
  He just didn't care much about the world outside - I don't think there was anything stopping him going elsewhere, but he had no desire to leave.
• Gandalf said... - septembrist
  that Tom "is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them".
  Gandalf does not say cannot but will not. It seems that Tom can leave his land if he so wishes but has willfully chosen not to leave for any reason but his own.
• Hmmmm.... - Aelric
  I don't think it has anything to do with being a "prisoner" so to speak. The elves are described as being "beyong the point of affective concern", I think Tom is always at that point, unless it has to do with the land he has set as a boundary for himself. He is content and not bothered or concerned with what happens on the "outside", nor has he ever been. So yes, he could have travelled on to Bree, and as far as he wished (even Elrond thought to summon him to the Council). Tom tied himself to his home and that is where he will stay.
• Just a guess on my part... - Malbeth
  I have no evidence to back this up, but it doesn't seem right for him to be a prisoner in his territory. I do suppose he hadn't been outside for a very long time, and that whatever his 'powers' were, they were limited to within the borders of his country.

• I know people like that - Binky
  not supernatural beings of course...:) but people who are not interested in the outside world..they don't read the news...the don't read much of anything now that I think of it... only care about what is happening in their little kingdom...
  hmm..now that I think about I read somewhere that C.S. Lewis' housekeeper was like that...wasn't interested in anything beyond what went on in her household...wouldn't talk about anything else. Lewis was always kind to her of course but she apparently rubbed his more intellectual friends the wrong way...hmmmm

• Chapter VIII Discussion: "Free to all finders, birds, beasts, Elves and Men, and all kindly creatures" - Aradan
  Tom Bombadil removes all the treasure from the barrow and lays it out in the sunshine. Is the power of the wight somehow connected to the treasure, and by taking it from the barrow, does this in some way destroy (or reduce) the wight’s power? What does this tell us about Tolkien’s attitude towards material wealth?
• The wights have something in common - Blue Wizard
  with dragons, who plunder the dwarf hoardes and sleep in mounds of treasure, but never enjoy a penny of it.

• Barrow treasure - Eledhwen
  Does Tom feel no qualms about taking the treasure from a burial mound because it's inhabited by evil spirits? Otherwise this could easily be interpreted as similar to robbing a pyramid, surely - taking from the dead? Anyone?
• I think the treasure has become tainted - Kimi
  by the barrow-wight's possession of the mound.

• Combination. - septembrist
  I think the power of the wight is connected to the treasure. That is why they "reside" in the barrows rather than in the forest or other remote areas.
  Tom disperses the treasure because the wight no longer has need of it and I think does does not believe in hoarding or waste of material wealth or anything else.
  Tom reminds me of Native American beliefs that the land is not ours to own or control, but to accept its gifts and help to preserve it. Also, wealth is not to be hoarded but shared with the tribe, especially those with less fortunate or in need.
• I would say that he recognizes the value... - Patty
  of material wealth, hence his mention of leaving it out for all takers, but it, like the ring, has no power over him, or else he would have taken more than the brooch which he seemed to just take for "sentimental value" as it were.
• Chapter VIII Discussion: "There was Tom’s head (hat, feather and all) Chapter VIII Discussion: There was Tom’s head (hat, feather and all)" - Aradan
  This is the second time in three chapters that Tom has rescued the hobbits from danger. To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, “Once may be regarded as misfortune, twice sounds like carelessness.” In both cases, Frodo amongst all the hobbits behaves the most sensibly, but, also in both cases, he is not quite resourceful enough to save them on his own. What does Tolkien do to prevent this “re-cycling” of plot lines from become repetitious? What have the hobbits learned (if anything) from their earlier encounter with Old Willow Man?
  
  
• Sorry about the echo... - Aradan
  ...in the subject line. Must have happened when I cut and pasted the title from my notes (not sure how, though.)
• My take on both questions - Blue Wizard
  I agree with Patty about the encounter with Old Man Willow. Sam acts the most sensibly there, although his efforts do more harm than good. Frodo simply runs about in a panic calling for help. And, without Tom, they never would have escaped from Old Man Willow.

• I forgot about the ponies - Good point! - Aradan
• I think the first time with old man willow... - Patty
  actually Sam acted the most sensibly. But these are all new experiences for all the hobbits...as Annael said, "a hardening process"...
• Also... - Aradan
  (Almost forgot!)

• I would say lurking. - Malbeth
  I think Tom probably has some extaordinary powers within his realm, but in this case I believe that Tom was keeping an eye on the hobbits to be sure they made safely out of his realm. As for the first time, with Old Man Willow, maybe it was just fate; it was 'meant' for Tom to be there, just as Bilbo was 'meant' to find the ring in the dark.
• Chapter VIII Discussion:" An icy touch froze his bones, and he remembered no more. " - Aradan
  Why is it that Frodo awoke in the barrow although the other hobbits remained unconscious? (It certainly seems that the wight was not expecting that any of the hobbits would have re-awoken.) Is it because Frodo has a particular strength that the other Hobbits did not have? Or was it the influence of the Ring, trying to get back to its master? (Trapped inside a barrow in the pocket of a dead hobbit would somewhat reduce its chances of ever getting back to Mordor.)
• I don't think we need look any farther than... - Gaffer
  the fact that he was taken separately from the rest. The others were all captured together apparently (Frodo heard them crying for help.) Perhaps the Wight captured them, and was in the process of setting up the ritual or whatever with just the three, and came across Frodo as an added bonus, and set him on a shelf until he was done with the first three, which he had already begun.

• That's okay, but... - Aradan
  ...even if Frodo was put into a "holding" spell to keep him out of the way whilst the wight finished dealing with the other three, it seems to me that Frodo woke earlier than the wight was expecting. Either the wight was incompetant and didn't put a strong enough spell on Frodo to begin with, or there was a particular quality that Frodo had that helped him to resist the spell.
• Or - Gaffer
  The Wight just wasn't really afraid of anything that Frodo might do. Little tiny Hobbit dude vs. Big bad Wight. A spot of overconfidence maybe?

• Yes. I think we can agree... - Aradan
  ...that the wight was no Einstein. In fact, it probably didn't have much of a conciousness at all. It just acted instinctively, "collecting" people that happened to wander into its territory and taking them back to its lair. The idea that one should fight back probably never crossed its mind (if it had a mind.)

• Exactly. - Gaffer
  The wight was acting according to its nature. I have the feeling that at this point in the story, Tolkien was still in transition from children's story to epic literature.

• This is the explanation that most struck me as I read it too, Gaffer. - Patty
• What Bombadil said - Blue Wizard
  He warns the hobbits to avoid the downs, unless they are stern folk whose hearts never falter. And that is why Frodo awoke. Also, it doesn't appear that whatever "spell" it was that the wight was using on the other three was being used on Frodo. They are laid out, side by side, in white robes, bejeweled, and with a sword lain across their necks. Why not Frodo? Maybe it's not so much that Frodo awakes by virtue of the power of the ring, as that the wight perhaps could not weave such a spell over a holder of the ring.
• Your mention of Frodo's "pocket" reminded me: - GaladrielTX
  Tolkien mentions that Merry, Pippin, and Sam had been dressed in white clothing; and I assume Frodo was, too. When Tom comes to rescue them, he tells them they'll never find their old clothes again. So what happened to the Ring that Frodo always kept in his pocket?
• Frodo's clothes weren't taken. - Kimi
  Another sign that the wight had not been able to cast the same sort of spell over him.
• or . . . - Annael
  he got caught considerably later than the others.
• Good point. It may well be - Kimi
  no more than that.
• It had been hanging on his nck around a light chain since Rivendell... - EowynII
  ..they'd taken it from his pocket after the Fords, and placed it 'round his neck on a chain...so even if Frodo's clothes were changed like the other hobbits', the Ring would still have remained with him...

• But they hadn't been to Rivendell! - Eledhwen
  However the chain thing still goes, as Bilbo seemed to have had it on a chain, as Frodo reports it changing size in 'Shadows of the Past'. I agree that probably the wight had no power over the bearer of the Ring.
• Duh! What crack was I smokin'? - EowynII
• It may also have been... - Aelric
  ...the feeling that the Ring would be taken from him that awakened him and made him stronger. Certainly it (the Ring) did play some part in it. Also, Frodo "different". He is not the plain shire hobbits that Sam, Merry and Pippin are. He was "meant" to have the Ring. Perhaps this instance at the Barrow shows this. Is there a hand guiding them all through this?
• The Ring seems the likely culprit. - Kimi
  I hadn't thought of the Ring itself causing Frodo to wake, but now that you've suggested it, it seems reasonably likely.

• Chapter VIII Discussion: Cold be hand and heart and bone. - Aradan
  We’ve already touched on the question “What is a wight?” but who exactly are the barrow-wights of the Barrow-downs? Originally, I thought that they were simply the ghosts of the original occupants of the barrows “turned bad”, but now I’m not so sure.

• Ive always thought they were sent there by the witch king - Hengist
  Bit im not sure wether he corrupted the spirits of the dead or got them from else where. I dont think they were under active control and wernt out to get the hobbits, just get anyone they can as that is their nature. So why would the witch king want them there. that i think is obvious - the treasures buried with the dead! Many of the great and good of arnor were buried in the barrows in full arms and armour - weapons that can hurt the witch king after thats where merry got his sword to kill the witch king.
  ive always thought that the WK just put them there to stop people getting those weapons - even if they were into grave robbing.
• The incantation leads me to think... - EowynII
  ...that somehow the wights do indeed have a direct connection to Sauron...remember the closing lines of the incantation, which mention the dark lord raising his hand over withered land, etc., etc. Are the wights in league with Sauron, and trying to waylay Frodo for that reason? Hard to say...they could have had purposes of their own, like the Balrog did.

• The (sort of) Zen answer... - Gaffer
  Why are there Wights in the Barrows? Because Barrows are where Wights live/exist.

• Who/what are the barrow wights - Blue Wizard
  I'm like you. I originally thought that the barrow wights were basically the ghosts of the people who were buried in the barrows, but now I think that is incorrect. Based on what Tom tells the hobbits, and on their own experience/dreams while captured, the barrow wights were some kind of spirit that were sent from outside, by the Witch King, or perhaps by Sauron himself , to occupy the barrows.

• Supernatural beings. - Eledhwen
  There aren't many of these in LOTR. No vampires, precious few ghosts (aside from the Dead Marshes and the Dead which follow Aragorn), nothing which gets inside your head ... The wights seem to be the only supernatural manifestation. Maybe they're sort of mummies - they're buried in barrows, after all - whose spirits live on; or as someone suggested yesterday, bodies inhabited by spirits. They're certainly malignant, and I think would be classed as allies of Morgoth and Sauron, but they seem to be under their own control.
• I don't think it's as organised as that. - Kimi
  The following is complete speculation on my part; merely my thoughts, backed up by nothing that I've found in Tolkien's writings.

• You're right. That's the very question I was going to post later today! - Aradan
  Great minds think alike, eh?

• Chapter VIII Discussion: Some info on the REAL Barrow Downs - Aradan
  Salisbury Plain is a sparsely populated, treeless plateau in Southern England, an easy day trip (by car) from Tolkien’s home in Oxford. Being of only marginal agricultural use, the plain has been virtually untouched for thousands of years, and still contains many prehistoric earthworks, stone circles (such as Stonehenge), and barrows.

• Very true. - Eledhwen
  I've been there too, a while ago, and those stone circles and barrows are quite incredible - such a power of history, a sense of age, like you can't get anywhere else (including Roman ruins, really, as these circles are less ruined.)
• Thanks for adding this info, Aradan... - Patty
  I think that, mist shrouded this area would be enough to really frighten ME, and I'm sure the hobbits would become very frighened and out of their reckoning, being not very worldly.
• Nice link! - Blue Wizard
  I suspect that you are right. Some of Tolkien's descriptions of places are so vivid that they must be based on real locations - and this sure looks like the Barrow Downs.
• Chapter VIII Discussion: "North with the wind in the left eye and a blessing on your footsteps." - Aradan
  How did the hobbits come to get lost? Was it the malign influence of the barrow wights or did they just have a poor sense of direction? (A midday meal with a tendency to fall asleep after good food did not help.) Is the standing stone in the hollow circle having a malign influence?
• The hardening process has just begun. - Annael
  They're three days out from the Shire, two of which they've spent with Tom. Really it's only their second day of travel. They haven't yet learned to be suspicious and cautious all the time. I can't quite blame them, nor do I see them as "idiots." They went into the Old Forest as a calculated choice to evade another, definite danger, and it was the right choice even though they got out of their depth and needed rescuing.

• No need for spells - Phwghre
  I don't believe that it is necessary to invoke evil forces eminating from the barrows to explain the Hobbits' actions. They were experienced with the safety of the Shire. It was a beautiful day. Goldberry had packed one mean pic-a-nic basket. And suddenly, the weather changed, it got dark, and they got lost. Their foolish decisions were made way before they entered the region where I would expect the barrows' power to reign. It is only natural that the lay of the land funneled them into the barrows--this feature would have influenced the original builders' decision on where to construct the sight.

• Eerie... - Malbeth
  I was thinking that maybe the hobbits were careless because Tom's house seemed such a safe haven, and he seemed so unconcerned about any danger, but I didn't post anything about that. Yikes, Phwghre, are you reading my mind? But then I looked at Blue's post, and I see that's what you were referring to...whew.
• sorry - Phwghre
  Apologies to both Malbeth and Blue for assigning that idea to the wrong authour. My thesis advisor always complains, to no avail, about my throughness in checking references.
• Deceivingly familiar - Blue Wizard
  The hobbits leave Tom's house nearly as light-hearted as he seems to be, and it appears to them that the main road is really quite near. It turns out that, even if it weren't for being captured by the barrow wight, they could not have made the road in less than a full day of traveling. This mistaken perspective is something that frequently happens to someone unfamiliar with relatively featureless terrain, like the downs seem to be - things are much farther away than they seem. I think that simple disorientation, and a bit of carelessness, is a big part of how they get lost. But I wouldn't discount the barrow wights as actively luring unwary travelers to their doom.
• Careless - Malbeth
  I'm sure there was some influence from the wight, but it was most carelessness. They're trying to get past this very dangerous place to continue their all-inportant mission, and they stop for a long, relaxing lunch. Apparently they didn't learn much in the Old Forest.

• That is just what struck me, Malbeth...Why didn't Tom... - Patty
  take them to the road from the beginning? He knew the lure and power of the wights? But then, perhaps, as Annael said...this is part of the hardening process, and in fact, Tom knew that they needed to go through this to better prepare them for the even worse things to happen later. Since we don't know exactly who Tom is, we don't know the limits of his foreseeing powers.
• Maybe it was a test... - Malbeth
  ...or an exercise to prepare them for hardships to come. But if that were the case, wouldn't Tom have kept a close eye on them, and intervened as soon as they got caught? On the other hand, maybe he did, and was waiting until the last minute to see if any of them was strong enough to take action, which Frodo did. Or maybe JRRT just wanted another dangerous adventure before they got to Bree.
• Very interesting possibility - Blue Wizard
  Tom will not pass his "borders", and yet teaches the Hobbits a song to sing in case they are in trouble again. It is as if he expects that they will need his assistance even so close to home . And, both he and Goldberry warn the hobbits to stay clear of the barrow downs themselves. Tom makes an interesting observation that they should avoid the barrows unless they they are made of stern stuff indeed and have "hearts that do no falter". It is significant that it is indeed Frodo, the ringbearer, whose heart does not falter here. Perhaps it is a test indeed, to see if Frodo really is up to the task ahead of him.
• Bumblers - Phwghre
  JRRT went out of his way to make the hobbits appear to be real eejits in the Book One of the Fellowship. Rescued by elves, farmers, woodland spirits, and rangers, it's amazing they made it out of Hobbiton.
• Chapter VIII Discussion: "With a wave of her arm she bade them look round…" - Aradan
  After leaving Tom Bombadil’s house, the Hobbits appear to have reached another boundary, with the forest on one side and the barrow downs on the other. The forest was dangerous, but it was, to a certain extent familiar (at least to Merry). The barrow downs mark the start of completely unknown territory. The hobbits, however, still seem to be behaving as though they’re out for a Sunday afternoon trot on their ponies.

• That paragraph - Eledhwen
  I've just reread it carefully twice - wow. Fabulously descriptive. It's really poetic. It strikes me that all the lands - North, South, and East - are depicted as being hazy, somewhere unknown. Most notably, East (the direction they're heading, towards Rivendell) is the direction that 'spoke to them, out of memory and old tales, of the high and distant mountains'. Everywhere else fades into the distance, 'featureless and shadowy'. East is most attractive. Also, the West is hidden behind trees - the true unknown; you can't even guess what may lie that way, and indeed we never find out until the very end of the entire book.
• That is my favorite paragraph in the whole book! - Annael
  The bit about "vanished into a guess . . . it reminded them, out of memory and old tales, of the high and distant mountains" always speaks to me. But then, mountains are magic places to me.
• Thought re the movie version - Annael
  This is the kind of passage that will be hard to do in the movie (not just because Goldberry won't be in it). You can't film a description of something! At least they're using locations that match what Tolkien envisioned. But more than that, I hope that PJ will include a scene somewhere, before or after Bree, where the hobbits stand on a hill and see the mountains in the distance for the first time in their lives, and somehow convey the wonder of that moment to us. Through voice over perhaps, if the film is narrated?
• I would hope... - Aradan
  ...that the quality of the writing in the book is translated into quality cinematography in the film.
• yes and no - Phwghre
  True, to the west lies The West, a haven hidden from knowledge. But also to the West and hidden by the forest is the familiar haven of the Shire. This is a chance to return west along a well traveled road to the known or to continue east into the unknown.
• Ths songs of strange birds - Blue Wizard

Lord of the Rings : Book 1, Chapter 9
At the Sign of the Prancing Pony
A Discussion Led by Kimi

• Chapter 9: Summing up - Kimi
  The Hobbits (and the readers) have learned that the world is a bigger place than they suspected. We've had glimpses of some of the other Peoples of Middle-earth: Men, dwarves, and even a part-orc.

• Thanks, Kimi! - Aradan
• Kimi you did a perfect job, and especially thanks since you were asked at the last minute.. Thanks for your additional info from Letters,etc. Really enjoyed it! - Patty
• Yet another week of great discussion! - GaladrielTX
  Thanks, Kimi! I didn't post this time (everyone beat me to the things I wanted to say), but I enjoyed reading and learned a lot.
• Well done, Kimi! - Aelric
  And this asn't even your week! Excellent job! Nice summation as well: this is where the story really begins, the rest was a hobbit "adventure" like Bilbo's. Yes, they had Black Riders chasing them, but they found refuge in a place they they (for the most part) were familiar with. Now they venture where none of them have ever been...and Strider will be your guide!

• Yet another 'Thank you, Kimi' - Malbeth
  And you're right...the tone of LOTR really changes right here in Bree.
• Thanks Kimi! - Annael
  This is so much fun!
• Thanks, Kimi! - Eledhwen
  Nice discussion this week ... just realised it's my turn next - help!!! How can I follow such a great group of people?
• Nice summation. Thanks for your leading another great discussion. - septembrist
• Chapter 9, Part Eleven: Bits and Pieces - Kimi
  Here're a few small items to chew over:

• At the Sign of the Prancing Pony - Blue Wizard
  1. I agree with the comment below, that there does not appear to be any particular significance to the name "Prancing Pony", other than it is an appropriate name for a country inn at the crossroads of two ancient highways, with extensive stables.

• I agree with your assesement of Rivendell as being... - Patty
  a small city in fact. A while ago I posed the question of how people thought of Rivendell as one house or what, because the words Elven REALM have been used, which signifies to me more than just one house. Also we already know it housed many folks. But always it is drawn as just one house, from gingerbread (i.e. the bros. Hildebrant) to something more substantial, bt always just one house.

• Well, it could be like Brandy Hall . . . - Annael
  which housed a "couple hundred" people at any time.

• here's a picture . . . - Annael
  

• I have wanted to go to Banff for years, tho' I can't ski a stroke. But you're right, Rivendell it is!!! - Patty
• Wonderful. I don't know why I hadn't thought of it before - Blue Wizard
  but the Banff Springs Hotel is a perfect model for Rivendell. The look, the setting, everything. It's absolutely perfect.

• I would go there in a second! - Annael
  Always wanted to visit Calgary & Banff. It would be a great place to go in August.

• You've never been there? - Blue Wizard
  For an avid skiier in the Pacific Northwest,you're missing a treat. You owe it to yourself to go. Stay at the Banff Springs (the one in your pic) or Chateau Lake Louise. (The Canadian Pacific hotel chain is my favorite - the Palliser in Calgary is also very, very nice, but not as picturesque, being in the center or town.) Ski Lake Louise, Sunshine, Mt Norquay, Nakiska.

• I know, I know . . . - Annael
  There are so many great ski areas close to Seattle that we don't go farther afield very often. We go up to Whistler in BC from time to time, and over to Idaho to McCall or Sun Valley, but mostly we stick with Crystal Mountain for downhill or the Methow Valley for Nordic skiing. We had a place down near Bachelor for years & that was our usual vacation choice - there's just something about being able to ski from the TOP of a 9,000-foot mountain! But Banff - yes, someday!
• The Last Homely House - Idril Celebrindal
  I always thought of Rivendell as being a small village with one prominent dwelling -- Elrond's home, the Last Homely House (which should really be called the Last Homely Mansion since it's apparently pretty large). There are probably other dwellings in Rivendell, if for no other reason than to give Elrond's folk a chance to escape the communal life of the Last Homely House for a while. (Frodo's house at Crickhollow, although it's not Elvish, was built for a similar reason.) Plus, there would be various outbuildings, workshops, smithies, barns, storage sheds, granaries, etc. that would be separate from the main house.

• I think you may be right about Rivendell - Aradan
• Also there are no female ruffians. - Steve D
• There is mention of two types of people - Blue Wizard
  traveling through Bree - true refugees, trying to escape from the troubles in the South and East, and bandits/ruffians/highwaymen. I expect that the visitors to the Prancing Pony frequently included a number of families, including women and children, in the former category.
• I don't know about "significance"... - Malbeth
  but "The Prancing Pony" would indicate an inn primarily for travelers, with a large stable for their horses. The Shire inns presumably catered mostly to the locals.
• Lack of Women (and a supplementary question) - Aradan
  Many pubs in England tend to have two separate rooms in which customers are served: a "Bar" where the furnishings were fairly basic, and a "Lounge" where the furnishings were more comfortable (and the drinks usually a little more expensive).

• More lack of women (and a supplementary answer) - Eledhwen
  I think Aradan's got it re lack of women in the Pony, and I'd add that even today in Britain it's common for men to go out 't'pub' and leave their wives behind to put the kids to bed or something. As for the Dúnedain women and children, well, I think they must have a small secret settlement somewhere in the North, not too far from the Shire's borders. Hidden in the woods like Robin Hood or something. A base for the men to come home to.
• Michael M. wrote about this - Binky
  several months ago...I believe he also thought the Rangers had encampments in the North...I was led to believe they lived some kind of a gypsy lifestyle but living at Rivendell would be feasible as well.

• Chapter 9, Part Ten: The Ring - Kimi
  Just why does Frodo put on the Ring? Sheer chance ("If chance you call it")? A prompting from someone in the room? Or a prompting from the Ring itself?
  
  
• This scene in the Pony, along with what happened to... - Patty
  Isildur and the scene at Weathertop, where Frodo feels compelled to put the ring on in the presence of these enemies who, he knows will still be able to see him all combine to give me more of a sense of the ring being sentient than I had before this reread. I think it is exherting influence to get back to the maker, Sauron, as was said below. The thought that ultimately this was happening according to the design of Eru , as in Frodo and the other hobbits being meant to meet up with Aragorn is a little more like pre-ordained destiny than I imagine the story line to be.
• About "pre-ordained" - - Annael
  Several posts below from our Tolkien scholars have made it clear that Tolkien was as surprised as the hobbits by Aragorn's appearance, and had no more idea than they who he was, at first. I wonder if when Tolkien wrote about "it was meant . . . more than that I cannot say" he was expressing his own belief in and wonder at the creative power working through him to make this story.
• That's an interesting thought, Annael... - Patty
• The Ring can change its size, in my opinion. - Steve D
  I can't think of any other way it could have slipped off Isuldur's finger.

• One ring, fits all sizes - Aradan
  It can fit comfortably on human sized fingers (Sauron, Isildur) and hobbit sized fingers (Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam) so it must change size at will.
• Of course! Great point! - Steve D
• Magical items... - Aelric
  ...IMHO, are made so that anyone can wear them. They shirk or swell to fit comfortabley -- just part of the magic...
• Ah, but at whose " will"? - Patty
• Who ever is wearing it... - Aelric
  ...this is pretty general thinking here, Patty, sorry. When I play AD&D for instance, and I describe a pair of magic gauntlets, when the person (player) puts them on, I say that the glove shrink or swell to fit perfectly -- inherant in the magic poured into it by the caster who made the item.

• But I mean, the wearer or the ring itself?... - Patty
  you don't think it's the ring's will (bound up with Sauron's of course) that decides things,not, for example, Frodo?
• Now hold on... - Aelric
  ...do you mean in regards to the "one-size-fits-all" theory or the Ring as a whole? I'm talking specifically about fitting. The Ring fits by itself, without will of it's own (in a personified way) or that of Sauron, just because it is a magic ring and that how I think it works. The Ring just sizes automatically.

• The ring seems to go on a finger in 3 instances: - Ugly Troll
  When the ringbearer is trying to hide from someone.
  When it seems to slip on the finger of its own will.
  When a servant of Sauron is nearby and a compulsion comes over the ringbearer.

• A silly thought of mine. - RosieLass
  What was the Ring trying to get back to? Its master Sauron, or to the Cracks of Doom where it was created?

• A bit of all three... - Aelric
  ...the Ring does loosen and tight at will, it would seem. But I think it was by chance that the timing was right (in regards to the fall); with the Nazgul close by, the Ring grew stronger and wished to reveal itself. Luckily the Ring didn't just fall out of his pocket and roll ovewr to Ferny's table!
• The will of the ring. - Lorgalis
  Sice the first time the ring appeared in the hobbit, it could always be seen, that the ring made its own decisions.
  It served only the way it wanted it to be.

• You were meant to have it, and not by its maker - Blue Wizard
  My first instinct is that the ring is simply trying to reveal itself, in order to get back to it's maker. Bill Ferny and Harry the Gatekeeper have had some dealings with the Black Riders directly - although it cannot be imagined that the Nazgul would entrust them with the knowledge of what it is they are looking for, beyond "Baggins". And, Saruman has his spies. And, it may be that the ring is simply trying to find a more appropriate and powerful person to hold hit than Frodo - Aragorn himself perhaps.

• The Ring itself. - Eledhwen
  It probably 'wants' to get him into trouble. In the end, it brings him up with Aragorn, which is a good thing.
• I agree, it's the ring itself - Malbeth
  It feels to Frodo like an influence from someone in the room, but who? Ferny and the Southerner are just spies; they don't know specifics about the ring. It must have been the ring itself, taking advantage of an opportunity to make itself known. Although, I just thought of this, it's possible there was a Black Rider nearby, outside the inn, influencing Frodo. Hmmm.
• I think so too. - Steve D
• Chapter 9, Part Nine: The Author's Touch - Kimi
  There are some frightening things in this chapter, and in fact there is no real feeling of safety for the hobbits from now until they reach Rivendell.

• I agree with what everyone else has said; I also like - Kimi
  the interaction between Frodo and the locals when he's talking about writing a book. One would almost think JRRT was talking from experience here!
  
  
• Barliman is my favorite secondary character, and as I posted on the main board... - Patty
  his casting is of real concern to me. I think it's the fact that his casting hasn't been announced that concerns me. I don't see how he could be written out of the script, do you?
• I'm sure he'll be there. After all, we know - Kimi
  Bree is in, complete with The Prancing Pony, so there surely must be an inn-keeper.

• But ya know Kimi, the actors that I'm thinking of are used to... - Patty
  playing bit parts...it's what a lot of them do...so perhaps they won't cost too much? **wish , wish, hope, hope**...
• Barliman Butterbur - Idril Celebrindal
  (I almost wrote "Barliman Butterbutt" :-)

• Ha ha - me too - Malbeth
  I caught "Barliman Butterbut" just before posting this morning, and reluctantly decides to correct it.
• I rather like Nob and Bob - Blue Wizard
  Barliman's interaction with them is one of the more amusing things in this chapter. The three of them strike me as Dickensian characters - something of a mixture of Old Fezziwig, young Ebeneezer Scrooge and young Dick Wilkins and half-a-dozen others. Nob and Bob are "on" to him - he is blustery and busy, but with a heart of gold. But, they are the ones who really keep the Prancing Pony going. If LOTR was a massive success on screen, and someone wanted to do a "spin-off" situation comedy based on minor characters for television - the Prancing Pony would be the first choice in my book.
• taking that idea and running with it . . . - Annael
  How about this: Every week someone in the Common Room tells a different story from Tolkien. We cut between that story and the "crisis of the week" at the Inn (Barley has lost ANOTHER letter, the Inn hosts the Mayor of the Shire and everyone is acting snobby but it turns out to be Sam who prefers to pal with Nob & Bob, etc.)
• Sure - you could have - Blue Wizard
  Hobbits visiting from the Shire

• The critics will say... - Aradan
  ...that it's just a rip-off of "Cheers".
• Ho ho ho! - Eledhwen
  Well, Barliman Butterbur is constantly funny; the Breelanders are quite comic too in their country naivety. Then there's Frodo's song, and him falling off the table is at once comic and unnerving for the reader, as we know about the Ring.
• Chapter 9, Part Eight: Who's that Southerner? - Kimi
  Who is the "squint-eyed Southerner" who looks so sinister to the Hobbits? What can be learned about him beyond what we read in this chapter?
  
  
• Could he be 3/4 Man and 1/4 Orc? - Steve D
  It seems like half-orcs are clearly orcish, but he looks like a man.

• You may well be right, Steve. In - Kimi
  "Unfinished Tales", he is described as "an outlaw driven from Dunland, where many said that he had Orc-blood."
  
  
• Here's the scoop from "Unfinished Tales" - Idril Celebrindal
  The squint-eyed southerner was originally a spy of Saruman's. However, he is now a spy for the Nazgul. The Ringwraiths encountered him on the Greenway while he was on a spy mission of Saruman's (IIRC, either to the Shire or Bree). Through their evil magic, they dominated his will and turned him to the service of Sauron. (Something similar apparently happened to Harry the gate guard at Bree, who let the Nazgul into town.) The Nazgul then sent him to Bree to spy for them since they knew that the hobbits would be coming that way sooner or later.

• Very well remembered, Idril! - Kimi
  He was sent by Saruman to the Shire to buy pipe-weed "and other supplies", as well as to spy - specifically, "to learn if there had been any departures of persons well-known recently."

• One of Saruman's experiments - Blue Wizard
  Not only, as has been pointed out by Malbeth and Eledhewn, is the squint-eyed Southerner with the sallow complexion, one of Saruman's spies - sent to watch the Shire from Bree and the Southfarthing - but, he would also appear to be one of the results of his human-orc cross-breeding experiments.

• Maybe I'm seeing overtones that arn't there - Aradan
  ...but I thought of "squint-eyed, sallow complexion" as being of vaguely oriental or asian appearance, and thus this individual was a half breed between a "Western" type human and an Easterling or Haradrim. (Of course, this raises the spectre of whether Tolkien was perpetuating racist stereotypes...)

• In Letter 210, Tolkien wrote - Blue Wizard
  that Orcs "are definitely stated to be corruptions of the 'human' forms seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were) squat, broad, flat nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types."

• He's almost certainly from Isengard... - Malbeth
  by his appearance, as Eledhwen said, as spy for Saruman. But either he or Ferny (or both) may have been offered gold in return for information by a Black Rider, too. After Frodo's accident, Ferny leaves with the Southerner with "a knowing and half-mocking expression" on his face. Suppose a Black Rider had made promises in return for information about a hobbit from the Shire named Baggins. The Black Rider certainly wouldn't have told Ferny anything about the ring, but he might have said this Baggins was some kind of magician who might be able to disappear.
• Later on ... - Eledhwen
  In Isengard bits, we find out that he's obviously one of Saruman's men, probably one of those sent to spy on Gandalf's doings and friends. Saruman would know at least that Aragorn was friends with Gandalf, even if he was unaware of his real identity, and therefore it would make sense to have someone following him.
• Chapter 9, Part Seven: The World is a Big Place - Kimi
  Bree shares some of the Shire's insularity: notice that the inhabitants of both places refer to the others as "Outsiders". But Bree-folk are more aware of goings-on in the wide world than are the Shire-folk.

• Troubles in the Southfarthing - Blue Wizard
  The Shire is seeing a bit of the same kind of troubles as Bree, with a mixture of refugees and troublemakers from the South, Dwarves traveling in greater numbers along the East-West Road, and Elves leaving across the Sea. But, we don't get to see, until the Scouring, the faces of those people in the Shire itself; while we do get to see it, for the first time, in Bree.

• It was interesting to note that the hobbits in Bree... - Patty
  were sympathetic to the plight of those wanting to flee to more peaceful areas, but they knew that, as these were big folk, they could hardly move them out of their own holes and houses cause they wouldn't fit. No threat.
• Part of the larger world - Malbeth
  While the Shire folk have heard rumors of "queer folk" on the roads and have a vague idea that something upsetting is going on outside their borders, the Breelanders actually meet these travellers and here the stories first hand. Bree is happy to have the larger world touch them slightly; travellers stay at the inn and make life more interesting. However, they don't want to get TOO involved; they don't want a bunch of strangers settling there.

• Chapter 9, Part Six: The Man in the Moon - Kimi
  So that's where the nursery rhyme comes from! Is this meant to reinforce the idea that Middle-earth is our own world?

• Old Wives Tales Again - Blue Wizard
  Here is the most obvious example of Tolkien playing with the conceit that Middle Earth is a real place in our own past, remembered only dimly in our own old wives tales and nursery rhymes. Just like the "all that glitters is not gold" line of Bilbo that "survives" to Chaucer and Shakespeare.
• Twisting - Eledhwen
  Tolkien seems to twist our own legends and myths to suit his history, which works extremely well. Of course the Man in the Moon here is Tilion in his boat, and the Sun Arien in her vessel. (are those names right?) But they're adapted and 'lowered' from the high Maiar of the Sil to hobbit-level, giving both a more friendly aspect. The characters in the Sil are scary, especially Arien, but here, they're just comic.
• Chapter 9, Part Five: The Rangers - Kimi
  What do the people of Bree think of the Rangers?

• Gildor also mentions the Rangers, - Kimi
  though he calls them "The Wandering Companies". He says he will tell them of Frodo's journey.
  
  
• I think that Gildor was referring - Blue Wizard
  to wandering companies of elves, like his own, as well as to the Rangers.
• Yes, that makes sense. Both types of - Kimi
  "company" would have some sort of contact with Rivendell, I expect.
  
  
• The heedless - Blue Wizard
  The quote from Bombadil sums up perfectly the attitude of the Breelanders, and even more so the Hobbits, toward the Rangers. The Breelanders are at least aware of them. But, the Rangers keep themselves effectively secret from the Hobbits - they keep watch on the Shire without the Hobbits even being aware that they are there. They are, if visible to the Breelanders, effectively a complete mystery.
• Tom Bombadil described them to the hobbits... - Malbeth
  but not by the name 'Rangers'. After the barrow rescue, he gave them the daggers made by Men of Westernesse, and said: "Few now remember them, yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings, walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless." Of course, the hobbits didn't associate this description with the name 'Rangers'.
• Have you noticed, if you read that - Kimi
  wonderful quote aloud, what a lovely piece of poetry it is? Tom seems to speak in verse most/all of the time.
  
  
• Wonderful quote! - Aelric
  It's one of my favorites! So much foreshadowing!
  
  
• Very little. - Eledhwen
  Does Gandalf mention them at all in the Shadow of the Past? The hobbits don't seem to realise that the Rangers have been keeping them safe for years and years.
• Gandalf mentions Aragorn by name - Binky
  in 'the Shadow of the Past'. My son has my book so I can't look up the exact quote but I think he praised him and called him one of the 'greatest huntsman in this age of the world or something or other :) ..someone got a book handy? I don't remember if Gandalf actually used the word 'rangers' though.

• Found it. - septembrist
  Gandalf calls Aragorn, "the greatest traveller and huntsman of this age of the world" as he tells Frodo of their search for Gollum.
  However, he does not describe Aragorn in any detail.
• That's right, it was when he told Frodo about hunting for Gollum. - Malbeth
• Chapter 9, Part Four: Enter Strider - Kimi
  The character of Strider had a convoluted history during the writing of LOTR; Tolkien himself said that "Strider sitting in the corner at the inn was a shock, and I had no more idea who he was than had Frodo." In an early version, Strider was a hobbit called "Trotter"!

• The real Strider? - Kimi
  This is an extract from a letter to Christopher Tolkien written in 1944. It happened after the introduction to Trotter/Strider had been written, but I can’t help feeling that this intriguing man had some influence on the final picture of Aragorn.

• I find it interesting that Frodo, after his - Kimi
  fright with the Ring, goes and sits beside Aragorn, and doesn't seem particularly frightened of him. Wary, but not frightened.

• The first time - Blue Wizard
  I read LOTR, so long ago, I'm afraid that I didn't share Sam's suspicions about Strider.

• I've always loved Strider's introduction. - Malbeth
  Truthfully, I can't remember if I was fooled the first time I read it, but Tolkien certainly drops some clues that this mysterious Strider might be a scoundrel or worse.

• All true. - Eledhwen
  You want to know more about this man - who he is, where he's been, what he's doing in Bree ... He obviously has a history, and what's more, he's obviously Different from the Breelanders. It's like there's a warning sign (helped by Butterbur's description) saying 'Warning! This Man is dangerous!' And he is, if you're on the wrong side.
• Movie comments are definitely allowed! - Kimi
  If they relate to the book, that is. And yours definitely did.
  
  
• The fact that the most excellent secondary character Barliman Butterbur... - Patty
  doesn't know much about him, other than the fact that he's a "Ranger" makes you at first a little suspicious of him. His face is hidden, a usual sign of evil intent, and he's off in the corner by himself. I didn't know that about the early concept of Strider--thanks, Kimi! I sure hope that Butterbur is in the movie to the extent that he is in the books. Even the wooley-footed slow couch line is important!
• I didn't put much weight on Barley's opinion. - Annael
  He struck me as provincial & so busy with his own concerns that he didn't have time to really think about who Strider might really be. It's hard to remember back all those years to my first time of reading, but I think that I was simply interested in this new person & wondered who he would turn out to be. I never felt he was a Black Rider.
• I am sorry to admit - Binky
  that I first thought the shadowy figure jumping over the hedge and following the hobbits into Bree was a black rider...however it didn't quite jel because there was no 'evil feeling' in the air' and no desire to put on the ring. Sorry Strider.
  I knew from the first mention that Stider was going to be a friend. Don't ask me how I knew...I just knew. I felt tt was about time for them to have another companion on the road...

• Chapter 9, Part Three: Hobbits' Progress - Kimi
  The hobbits have already been through some terrifying experiences. What does their behaviour in Bree tell us about how much they have learned from their experiences? What does it tell us about their individual personalities?
• Treachery and trust - Idril Celebrindal
  The Hobbits learn several lessons about trust and treachery during their stay in Bree:

• A very good point! - Blue Wizard
  Up to this point in the story, the motivations of the peripheral characters seem to be relatively straightforward. Even if those motivations are complex (as we find out later) the other characters are either straightforwardly "good" - i.e. just about everybody; "bad" - really just the Black Riders and Old Man Willow; or "annoying" - Ted Sandyman, Lobelia and Lotho are unfriendly, but not really evil (at this point). Lobelia is something of a kleptomaniac it seems, and Frodo's home is invaded by treasure-seekers, but it seems more a matter of bad manners than being bad.

• Take the good with the bad - Aelric
  Light slowly dawns on the hobbits in Bree. But the only one that isn't directly foolish is Sam. Frodo and Pippen do their thing in the common room (though Pippen doesn't quite get it) and Merry goes out by himself. This whole chapter is a learning experisnce for them. Frodo, learns that the Ring can play tricks on him, slipping on his finger without warning. He also learns that more than just the Nazgul are looking for him through the words of Strider.

• The spirit of Tom's hut still influences them. - Lorgalis
  In the Pony, they relax again and feel comfortable. It is even better atmosphere for the four with people of their kin around them.
  This leads them to feel comfortable. The singing of Frodo may also to some degree result from the singing at Tom Bombadils house. It seemd natural there, it may also be natural in the inn, especially to draw attention from Pippin.

• The four amigos - Blue Wizard
  I'm not sure that we see much "growth" in this chapter, except as it sets up the next. In one sense, the interlude with Bombadil has made them forget about the danger that they are in from the Black Riders - and it made them lose the caution with which they started their plan. Frodo would not even tell Gildor of their plans, even in the relative safety of the Shire; he tells Bombadil virtually everything; with the first approach of "real" strangers - Frodo reverts to the plan of anonymity that Gandalf had mapped out for him in the beginning. Sam is still the sheltered, simple Shire-hobbit - quite afraid of men and their houses, and of the Prancing Pony itself. Merry is, in many ways, the most self-assured of the group, being comfortable enough to leave the Pony for a bit of a walk in the evening by himself. And Merry is the most immature - forgetting that they must travel in secrecy, drawing attention to himself when he shoudn't, and prompting Frodo's own performance.
• The Hobbits are very childlike at this point of the story. - Nenya
  Frodo comes closest to understanding what the mission is about, but even he fails to appreciate the gravity of the situation. The group is comparable to a bunch of kids sent to the market to buy a loaf of bread. They check out the five and dime store first, they forget to look both ways when crossing the street, and they talk to strangers.

• Re: Frodo and Pippin - Malbeth
  I'm not so sure Tolkien made the wrong choice here, Nenya. Most of what we see of Frodo's personality is when he is burdened with the hard choices and responsibility thrust upon him the The Shadow of the Past, and especially during and after being "wounded by knife, sting, and tooth". Frodo's character is in danger of being too self-sacrificing and serious; too 'perfect' to seem real. I think this foolishness helps temper that. And after all, it was Pippin who started this whole mess, anyway. Fool of a Took!
  
  
• Frodo's jig. - septembrist
  I think Frodo was surprised by the favorable reception he song gets. I think he was doubly surprised that he enjoyed the attention. After all, it had nothing to do with being Bilbo's heir or the Ring, just a song a dance in a friendly inn.
• Frodo being the "Centre of Attention" - Aradan
  True, this is totally out of character. I think that this is the influence of the ring, trying to draw attention to itself. After this episode Frodo is aware that the ring might be having an efect on him and so imposes more self control on himself from this point on, maybe over-compensating as a result.
• However... - Aradan
  ...a few pints of good Bree ale was probably a bigger contributary factor!
• They relax. - Eledhwen
  They've been on edge, and now they find a warm welcome, ale, food, friendly folk, comfortable rooms - so they relax and forget most of the caution they're supposed to be travelling with (apart from Merry who Patty has already mentioned, and Frodo's insistence on using Underhill as his name.) Pippin and Sam relax most. Frodo's on edge, which is natural with the Riders on his heels.
• Even though at first the hobbits are wary... - Patty
  as they draw near to and enter Bree and the Pony, they loose much of their wariness and forget what caution they've learned as they get full bellies and are warmed by the fire. Perhaps Merry is the only one who still shows some caution as he says "mind your Ps and Qs and don't forget that you're supposed to be escaping in secret...etc." as the others opt to go into the common room. But then, he never should have gone out for that breath of air, himself. Again, their innocent unwary actions would have ended in disaster if Strider (YEAH!) hadn't been there to ward off the enemies ready to pounce once their identities were lain bare.
• Chapter 9, Part Two: Bree continued - Kimi
  Bree is the first settlement we visit beyond the Shire, and it is the first time we encounter "ordinary" Men (neither Gandalf nor Tom Bombadil qualifies as ordinary).

• There's a little about the Men of Bree in - Kimi
  Appendix F of LOTR, "Of Men". It reads as though the Men of Bree are not descended from the Edain, but are related to the Dunlendings and the Dead Men of Dunharrow.

• If I remember correctly ... - Idril Celebrindal
  ... the Men of Bree are the descendents of Men who originally migrated into that area of Eriador during the First Age. (I can't recall if they were associated with a particular house of the Edain.) They weren't involved in the wars in Beleriand and were allied with neither Morgoth nor the Noldor (nor later, Sauron). They seemed to have been overlooked by just about everyone, which was extremely fortunate for them.

• The Men of Bree - Blue Wizard
  emphasize the common, though remote, ancestry of Men and Hobbits. The Men of Bree are very much like Hobbits in their appearance, habits and behavior - just a bit bigger. The Bree-Men, just like the Hobbits of the Shire, live in an isolated sanctuary from the wider world, in a land which was once part of a great kingdom, now long-forgotten, and protected from grave dangers of which they are quite unaware, by the constant vigilance of the Rangers, the remnants of that kingdom. Other than Rangers and outlaws, no other men live within hundreds of miles in any direction.
• Chapter 9, "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony". Part One: Bree - Kimi
  The hobbits are back on the Road, having survived their eventful detour thanks mainly to Tom Bombadil, but also to their own native and developing courage.

• In "The Hobbit", the Dwarves meet Bilbo - Kimi
  at the "Green Dragon", but I have a feeling that by the time of LOTR Dwarves don't tend to socialise in the Shire. So seeing Dwarves in pub might be strange to the Hobbits, too.
  
  
• The language is the same, but the Hobbits seem - Kimi
  to be instantly recognisable as from the Shire as soon as they open their mouths, so there seems to be at least a distinctive accent, and possibly a different dialect.
  
  
• An additional point - Blue Wizard
  Bree, contrary to the very nice sets of half-timbered buildings that we saw in one of the first spy reports of the film, is a city of stone. And, it is, for all practical purposes, a walled and fortified town - though Harry the Gatekeeper hardly seems a formidible guard. It is a remnant of the long-past ages in which it was an important outpost on the Greenway. Very subtly (like the great stone bridge over the Brandywine), Bree - an island of domesticity in the midst of the wilderness - hints of the long-lost Kingdom of Arnor.
• Bree in its isolation seems a bit like a frontier settlement. - Kimi
  But instead of the ruggedness of such a settlement, it has something of faded glory about it, with the elements you mention.

• The Men of Bree - Malbeth
  Even the men of Bree seem rather hobbit-like compared to other men. They have a long history living side-by-side with hobbits. They have the same tastes in inns, good beer and ale, comic songs, and good plain food. Even their botanical names, while seeming odd to the hobbits, speak of simple, close-to-nature lives that hobbits would find very familiar.
• Yes, they do seem "hobbitsh". - Kimi
  This perhaps explains how Men and Hobbits manage to dwell together so successfully in Bree.

• Familiarities and introductions - Aelric
  Being a mixed city, the Hobbits do find reassurance in that there are hobbits that live in Bree; this is their (and the readers') first glimpse at the world of Men: large two-story houses, gated enterances. etc. Suspisions are high though, and even Sam dislikes the idea of staying at the inn (surprise surprise for one so loving of a good ale!) and suggests they stay with some local hobbits. But once inside they are greeted with hobbit names that they recognise, and a general welcoming attitude such as they would find in the Shire. I particularly love the part when they get introduced and Tolkien lists the names. Interesting that the human names are described as being botanical, seeing as how men do a lot of the damage to nature, especially in the Shire later on...
  
  
• Has Merry been to Bree before? - Aradan
  In an earlier chapter Merry says that "some of his people" have ridden out to Bree in the past and stayed at the Prancing Pony. I don't remember reading any mention of Merry himself having visited Bree (I might have missed it), but considering how much he knows about the village I would surmise that he's been there several times in the past. Although the other three have never been to Bree before, I am sure that they felt more comfortable because Merry is with them than they would have done if they'd been on their own.
• I would guess not. - Kimi
  Though it certainly sounds as though he has spoken to older relations who have. As Malbeth says, this would recommend the "Pony" to him.
  
  
• Even if he hasn't - Malbeth
  he would certainly know some other Bucklanders who had, so he could assure the others (especially Sam) that this was a perfectly good inn, and they would be welcomed and trated well.
• A pub is a pub! - Eledhwen
  The Pony's quite similar to the Green Dragon or the Ivy Bush - regulars gossiping away, lots of ale, and so on - and hobbits always seem receptive to friendliness and hospitality.
• One important difference. - Nenya
  Our hobbits from the Shire aren't used to being around anyone besides other hobbits. Gandalf's irregular appearances are noteworthy in part simply because of that. In fact, it surprised me that the Hobbits were as easy as they were in the Prancing Pony because Hobbits were reputed to be shy of the Big People.

• Exactly: a mixture of the familiar surroundings of a pub - Kimi
  with the unfamiliar company of Big People.

• Morning, Kimi!...Well, of course The Pony is a mixture... - Patty

Lord of the Rings : Book 1, Chapter 11
A Knife in the Dark
A Discussion Led by Annael

• Chapter XI, Part 10. A question I forgot to ask! - Annael
  Did Frodo actually stab the Witch King? If he did, how come it didn't affect the Witch King? Wasn't Frodo's knife similar to Merry's? Did Frodo's knife not have the spell on it? What if MERRY had been the one to stab the Witch King instead?

• In addition... - Ron Austin
  I Know that we havn't covered this yet but since you mention Merry's blade.

• Frodo did not stab the Witch King. - septembrist
  Frodo did rend his cloak but that was all he did. Frodo's blade did not dissolve but the Witch King's blade did when Aragorn held it up to the light.
  Aragorn stated that had Frodo wounded the Witch King, his (Frodo's) sword would indeed have "perished".
• Now I can't remember correctly - Blue Wizard
  Does Frodo's blade dissolve? I don't think that it did - isn't his blade is found broken beneath him after he collapsed at the Ford? If Frodo had actually stabbed the Witch King, I think the blade would have dissolved, just like Merry's did. So I think that all Frodo did was cut his cloak, which Aragorn found on the ground at dawn, along with the morgul knife.

• Chapter XI, Part 9: Summary question. - Annael
  In what ways does this chapter move the story forward or develop the characters for us?
• The story has followed a leisurely pace - Blue Wizard
  until this chapter. Now, suddenly in a single chapter we have: (1) An attack on Crickhollow (2) an attack on Bree (3) the ponies lost and Bill acquired (4) setting off through town, with an apple for Ferny (5) a trek across with wilderness, witnessing a battle from afar (6) hints about Gandalf (7) the Lay of Beren and Luthien in abridged form (8) a great deal of background and history (9) an attack on Frodo and (10) a good look at the Black Riders.

• One thing I noticed . . . - Annael
  Up to the Barrow Downs, Tolkien tells us about practically every step the hobbits take and every word they speak. Now suddenly we're getting a whole day and a night taken care of in one sentence. This is necessary or the book would be 10,000 pages long instead of 1,000! What I like about Tolkien is that he can "cover a lot of ground" in very few words as needed, but he knows when to slow down and let us catch our breath and take a good look at our companions and the world around us.
• I think it works, though. - Eledhwen
  All of a sudden, proper adventure, as the hobbits hit unknown territory with a strange Man. It's almost as if Aragorn's the catalyst for things to happen.

• It works I think because.... - Nenlote
  This chapter is often desdcribed in Tolkien criticism as the birth of the angst of teenage years. The hobbits have left known territory, and the big wide world is not as nice, or as friendly as they supposed. Strider at this point is rather like a father-figure and it is his guidance that the hobbits lean on - especially when Frodo is wounded and they first see the Black Riders. It is also the realisation that even with the best laid plans, they sometimes go wrong and then you have to pick yourself up and go on.

• Chapter XI, Part 8: Frodo puts on the Ring. - Annael
  Compare and contrast Frodo's putting on the Ring in this chapter with the other times he uses it (accidentally or not).
• Up until now - Blue Wizard
  Both in LOTR and in the Hobbit, we tend to see the use of the ring essentially from a third-party standpoint: You put it on, and become invisible to the third party. We have also seen the ring as a force, both in having a hold on Bilbo, in particular, and to a lesser extent on Frodo already, and in trying to reveal itself, creating the urge in Frodo to put in on.

• He was unable to resist this time - Malbeth
  Earlier, Frodo had felt the mental influence of a Black Rider trying to force him to put on the ring, but had been able to overcome the suggestion. This time, Frodo's will was just not strong enough, either because their were five of them there, or more likely because the Witch-king himself was there.

• Another occasion was at - Kimi
  the House of Tom Bombadil. Again, there seemed no compulsion on Frodo.
• I agree, Malbeth. - Eledhwen
• Chapter XI, Part 7: The Nazgul threat fulfilled. - Annael
  "Over the lip of the dell . . . they felt, rather than saw, a shadow rise, one shadow or more than one."

• There's a hint of vampirism - Kimi
  about the Nazgul.

• Aaaargh! - Eledhwen
  The Nazgul are pretty scary all along, but I think they're scariest when Frodo puts on the Ring and we see their true faces. That's nasty. It's the sort of thing you don't want to read before bed. I agree with Binky and Blue that the build up, with little details, certainly adds to the horror of it.
• I confess that... - septembrist
  that I never really have a sense of fear regarding the Nazgul except when they are flying. Then they can see me without me seeing them or they can direct foul orcs or beasts to my location.
  For me, Tolkien's horror story-telling is at it height in the depths of Moria and in Shelob's lair.
• The Black Riders - Blue Wizard
  Over the course of these chapters, we see first a series of narrow escapes - the Hobbits never really are discovered, despite some close calls. The nature of the threat is both ambiguous and ominous. Gaffer and Maggot have confrontations with them - they are threatened (Maggot anyway) but not really harmed in any way. Yet, on the other hand - Gildor is truly alarmed, but will tell them nothing other than that they are servants of Sauron. Strider's reaction is similar, and he fills in some, but not many details. Animals are afraid of them - which is certain confirmation that they are evil (but we don't really doubt that) So the nature of the threat is established as truly dire, but left entirely to our imagination.

• I think part of the 'horror' ... - Binky
  are the little bits and pieces Tolkien strings along the way. First they are a muffled voice in the dark, then a snuffling creature that runs away from elves, then a horrible cry in the wind...we see them crawling in the fog..invading dreams...the build-up was one of the things that kept me reading as a kid...you don't show everything about your bad guys right away..! :)

• I agree. - Steve D
  We are never really shown Sauron or the torture chambers of Mordor, and this makes them much worse than if they were shown.
• Chapter XI, Part 6: Another glimpse of Aragorn. - Annael
  On Weathertop, Strider chants part of the tale of Beren and Luthien. Why does Tolkien put this story in at this point?
• There are a couple of reasons to put this here - Blue Wizard
  There are two aspects to this question. First, why put this in at all? Second, why at this particular point.

• My take on this ... - Eledhwen
  They have been talking of Rivendell, and probably whenever Imladris comes up, Aragorn thinks of Arwen, who is associated in his mind both with the Kings (who have just been referred to by Frodo) and of happiness; and he wants a tale that will lighten the mood. Which is why they only get the first, dreamy part of the tale in verse, and not the tragic bits. I suspect he's thinking of Arwen too in the last verse:

• I think it was Tolkien's way of... - Patty
  lending even more credence to Strider being "one of the good guys", as we associate elves and elven lore with the good. Sam, as I recall, was still not totally convinced until much later.
• Chapter XI, Part 5: Where's Gandalf? - Annael
  The first time you read this, what did you make of the news that Gandalf had apparently been at Weathertop but had been attacked and now was nowhere to be seen?
• It's hard to remember - Blue Wizard
  but, at this point in the story, we don't know that Gandalf was attacked at Weathertop. We know that Strider and the hobbits see flashes of lightning at Weathertop, and there is evidence of burning there, as well as the stone with the runes G-3, which might mean Gandalf on October 3 - the same date as the flashes. We don't really know anything else, for certain.

• Although we don't know for certain, Aragorn - Kimi
  does say "I guess that he was attacked on this hill-top." This is the slightly old-fashioned, fairly formal English use of "I guess", not the modern American one; Aragorn is reasonably sure that Gandalf was attacked there.

• It just strikes me now . . . - Annael
  that the Hobbits' reaction to the news that Gandalf might have been there was rather low-key. After all, they had no idea what had happened to him, and they'd been worried. Now they get proof that he's alive, and they don't seem glad. Also, whatever has happened, it's clear that he was driven off. Wouldn't that be a scary thought?

• Maybe - Draupne
  they still haven't realized what they are facing and how powerfull Gandalf actually is. If they still think about him as the wizard from the Hobbit, they wouldn't understand how dangerous the ones who driven him away were.

• I seem to recall thinking that he had defeated... - Patty
  those of the Nazgul who attacked him and swiftly went off to Rivendell where he had told the hobbits he hoped he'd see them.
• I wish I could remember! - Kimi
  I think I was mystified, but thought he couldn't be too far away. I didn't think he'd been captured (I'd remember that).
• For me I had no worries... - Aelric
  ...because he was able to leave at least a hastily scratched message for Aragorn. But that scene has always been a powerful one for me. I can picture the skies lighting up, the light flashing off of Frodo's face as he watches even from that distance. It gives a nice foreshadow to how much power Gandalf has.
• It's hard to remember... - Malbeth
  that's a long time ago, I just don't remember. I'm sure I didn't think he had been killed or captured; that just didn't seem possible. Then there was that pesky Balrog in Moria to prove me wrong!
• Worrying, I suppose. - Eledhwen
  Although I don't think I ever entertained the notion that he'd been captured on Weathertop. I guess I thought he'd gone to Rivendell (as he did). At this stage Gandalf's true power, like Strider / Aragorn's, is still hidden. For me, reading LOTR first as a child, I was still emeshed by the Hobbit Gandalf - a travelling wizard, not a powerful force of good from beyond the borders of the world.
• I thought Gandalf - Binky
  was running around the country side looking for the hobbits.. I did however believe it was because of Gandalf that the riders left the party alone for a while....it didn't dawn on me that he would make for Rivendell...

• Chapter XI, Part 4: A Glimpse of Aragorn. - Annael
  When Strider explains some of the history of the Weathertop hills, the hobbits begin to see that there is more to him than they know. Do you think that Tolkien offers enough hints before the Council of Elrond about who Strider really is?
• A striking thing about Aragorn - Kimi
  is how well he can manage without sleep. There are many mentions of his being awake all night, with no visible ill-effects. Do you think this might be his distant Elvish ancestry? Or just sheer toughness?

• There aren't many hints - Blue Wizard
  1. Gandalf tells Frodo about the hunt for Gollum, and briefly describes Aragorn as the world's greatest huntsman.

• To the first time reader... - Aelric
  ...Aragorn and his story remain a mystery full of clues up until Gandalf speaks quickly to Pippin before they enter the Chambers of Denethor.
• Yes. - Eledhwen
  There are enough hints so that a reader who's really 'on the ball', AND who has paid enough attention earlier (for example in the 'Shadows of the Past') to work it out, I think. Bilbo's poem in Chapter X helps, and now Strider's earnestness, and his knowledge of the history of the Kings, adds bits. I think it would spoil the parts coming later, where Aragorn reveals his ancestry, if we knew more now.
• Chapter XI, Part 3: Into the wild. - Annael
  Up until now the hobbits have never been one or two days away from a bed & four walls. The "hobbit walking party" is now over! How do you think they would have fared on this part of the journey without Strider along, whether or not the Nazgul were trailing them?
• The great irony is. . . - Blue Wizard
  that, if they just wait another day in Bree, Gandalf will show up.

• It would not have lasted long... - Aelric
  ...without Strider. If the Nazgul were chasing them, it would have been over within 2-3 nights out from Bree. Without the Nazgul, they may have made it to the Forsaken Inn, and possible a good deal further, but eventually I think they would have succummed to fear and hunger, and probably turned back. I love the hobbits, but at this point in the story, they were not in any condition to be walking in the Wild alone.
• Without the Nazgul pursuit - Kimi
  I think they would have made it to Rivendell, though they might have had problems with supplies. I don't know if anyone at Bree could have told them how many days' journey it would be to Rivendell (maybe some of the travelling Dwarves? Or perhaps Bilbo had told Frodo long ago?), and they could only take what they plus a pack pony could carry on their own backs. I don't think they had the skills to live off the land, i.e. hunting small animals or gathering enough wild food to keep them going (the latter could take a long time, and they are meant to be getting somewhere!) So it might have been a bunch of hungry hobbits that finally arrived!

• Follow-on question. - Annael
  What do you think the hobbits learned from Strider about surviving in the wilderness?
• They learned that they were capable of - Kimi
  surviving on shorter rations, and travelling longer and harder, than they probably thought possible.
• I think they would have done o.k. - Steve D
  They did later when they became seperated from the group/
• I think they would have waited at the inn - Malbeth
  until they could get ponies to ride and carry plenty of supplies. Plus, they would have been desperately hoping for Gandalf to show up and help. They would have just followed the road; Frodo must have known that was the road to Rivendell. Of course, without Strider they would have been killed by Black Riders the night before, so maybe it doesn't matter. BTW, I just checked, if they had waited for ponies, Gandalf got to Bree the night of September 30, the same day they left with Strider. So if they had survived the previous night, they would have had help from Gandalf.
• well, considering they are Hobbits... - leo
  they would probably have a hard time without all their Hobbitish convienient things like five meals a day, and sleeping in a normal bed. Something that they have been complaining about before, but because they never were more then two days away from a normal bed, has never really been this 'bad'.

• They'd have got lost, or ... - Eledhwen
  They'd have set out straight along the Road and got captured. And they'd have either carried too much or too little. I also suspect that if they'd have had their ponies, they'd have dawdled a bit, in spite of ostensibly making haste. Although they've grown up already since leaving Bag End, none of the hobbits are really ready for the wild yet. It's hard to imagine that in a few months, Frodo and Sam will be crossing the barren wastelands of Mordor, and Merry and Pippin will be alone in Fangorn. Amazing.
• Wouldn't they have eventually... - Binky
  met up with Gandalf? that is if they weren't found by the black riders first while bumbling around...
  but I think even if they did meet up with him, Gandalf would have spent most of the time fending the black riders off until he was spent (as in Moria) and the Riders would think they had them at the ford..

• Binky could be right... - Nenlote
  I think that Binky is probably right and that they might have met up with Gandalf - but without Strider they wouldn't have got very far at all.

• I can't remember, Did Gandalf send Aragorn . . . - Johndo
  . . . to Bree to meet the Hobbits, or did Aragorn decide to head there himself?

• Well, yes and no - Malbeth
  Aragorn had last talked to Gandalf in May, and Gandalf told him they (Gandalf and the hobbits, he assumed at that time) would be leaving for Rivendell at the end of September. When Aragorn returned in time to guard and/or watch the road, he found out from Gildor and company that Gandalf was missing, Black Riders were abroad, and later that Frodo had left. So Aragorn was in the area according to plan, but not specifically because Gandalf was missing.
• In the letter to Frodo that Barley never delivered... - Patty
  Gandalf says ..." you MAY meet a friend of mine on the ROAD..." (my capitals)...
• Chapter XI, Part 2: Attack at Bree and aftermath. - Annael
  What were the Nazgul attempting to accomplish in the attack at Bree? Were the Nazgul the ones who let all the horses and ponies out? Did Bill Ferny plan that part of the attack, or did he just take advantage of the situation?
• The horses and ponies - Blue Wizard
  As I said below, I don't think that it was the Nazgul who attacked at Bree, but the Southerners. After the attack, they disappeared.

• All the horses being driven far off would explain - Draupne
  why they couldn't be found, since they would probably have tried to get home if left on their own.

• The horses bolted. - Kimi
  I, like the other posters, thought it was probably Ferny who let out the horses, until I noticed just now that the book says "The others had been driven off, or had bolted in terror". Horses and ponies would surely not bolt in terror from Bill Ferny, even if he is pretty ugly. That passage makes me think that the Nazgul were at least near the stables.

• That depends on what he did - Draupne
  The normal defence for a horse is to run when it can, so if he opened the doors they would probably bolt of if scared. But since they ran so far that they couldn't be found, I agree it would probably take more than Bill Ferny. A horse set free will normally not stray to far, they stop pretty fast to eat if they're not very scared.

• Yes, I agree with all that. - Kimi
  I, too, thought for the horses to run off so far they must have been really frightened, and wouldn't they have done horsey screams? Not to mention hooves clattering noisily. They must have slept pretty soundly at that inn.
• I agree with Eledhwen - get the ring - Malbeth
  They had what seemed like an easy opportunity. As far as they knew, they just had four hobbits to deal with, and they knew what rooms they were supposed to be in. As for the horses, Ferny certainly profited from it, but it was also good strategy; the hobbits would either be delayed (as they were), or would be forced to leave on foot with few supplies if they couldn't get more ponies. So it would make sense for the Nazgűl too.
• Letting the horses and ponies out sounds like... - Patty
  the work of someone who had something to gain from doing just that...Bill Ferny. Of course the hobbits' and / or Butterbur's ponies would have been recognized so he couldn't keep them and try to sell them their own ponies--had to be one of his that was the only thing left. So I vote for Ferny. If it were the Nazgul I think if they had been willing to go that far they would have also terrorized the entire inn, not stopping when they found the hobbits' rooms empty.
• Catch the Ringbearer! - Eledhwen
  The Ring called them, but they weren't prepared to hunt through the house for it. I suspect the ponies being let out was probably Bill Ferny's work - too petty for the Riders!
• More the work of Men then Nazgul - Johndo
  I think much that went on in Bree was done by Bill Ferny, hoping to be rewarded by the Nazgul. I think Tolkien intentionally talked a lot about "Black men" in Bree showing the Hobbits confusion about who/what was following them, and hiding, for just a while longer, who/what the Black Riders really are.
  The Nazgul were clearly in the area, but I think Ferny and his Boys were working pretty hard to detain the hobbits and hold them for the Ring Wraiths.
• Chapter XI, Part 1: First Nazgul attack - Annael
  So far the Nazgul have only been a threat. They make an outright attack at last, at Crickhollow and Bree on the same night. Why did they wait so long (four days) after Frodo crossed the Brandywine to attack the house at Crickhollow? Is it coincidence that they attacked both places on the same night? The Nazgul that are in the Shire then head straight for Bree. Why? Are the Nazgul in communication with each other somehow?
• It wasn't the Nazgul at Bree - Blue Wizard
  The attack there was from the Southerners. The idea that it was the Nazgul at Bree as well as at Crickhollow is a common misconception. Strider tells the Hobbits that the Nazgul would not attack at Bree, being well populated, but that there is reason to fear the Southerners. The slashed bolsters would indicate that the attackers were trying to kill the Hobbits - which is not something the Nazgul were going to do; and, after the attack, the Southerners disappear.

• And do you agree with Aelric that the Southerners and Bill Ferny were working only for Saruman? - Annael
  Hence, not in league with the Nazgul at all?

• The Southerner was one of Saruman's agents - Kimi
  in the Shire. He was captured by Nazgul, told them all he knew, and was sent by the Nazgul to Bree. Hence, while in Bree he was working for the Nazgul.

• Someone noted a couple of weeks ago - Blue Wizard
  that in Unfinished Tales or maybe HOME that there is a short bit on the Southerner at Bree, and that he was one of Saruman's spies, said to have some Orkish blood in him, sent to keep and eye on the Shire and Bree, but along the way he met up with one of the Nazgul, and was "persuaded" to switch "sides". Of course, there's nothing in LOTR itself which explains that. They are unambigiously agents of Saruman in LOTR.

• oops... reading from the bottom up :) - inkgirl
  re my note to septembrist below.

• Telepathic? - Aelric
  I don't know about that one, Blue. I would rather say that Fatty knows why the Nazgul are there, having been privy to the information of the "conspiracy". He stayed in Crickhollow as to make it seem Frodo (and therefore the Ring) was still there. He is so delirious with fear and exhaustion, that he is just blabbering at the point he says "I don't have it!".
• Yeah, I thought that was just fear speaking. - Annael
  But I like the idea that it was mostly the work of Saruman's agents in Bree, not the Nazgul. It makes sense. I wonder if the Nazgul, after they finally made it back to Mordor, reported this to Sauron, and whether he had any suspicions of Saruman before that. Of course, being evil, he wouldn't tend to be very trusting in general, would he?

• I think, as sept suggested... - Aelric
  ...that Saruman had already been in contact with Sauron through the folly of using the Palantir. This happenned long before Gandalf was imprisoned. However, Saruman was no weakling, the strongest in mind of the Istari. He may have been ensnared by Sauron, but I think he was able to hide the fact that he was also wanting the Ring for himself. He feigned loyalty so as to create more room for himself to move freely, but at the same time knowing that if he (Saruman) were to gain the Ring, he would throw down Sauron and become a Dark Lord in Sauron's place.
• Well... - Aelric
  ...to be honest, I think Bill ferny would have worked for both, if the money was right. However, I think in this case, he and the southerner were in league with Saruman alone.
• Good point. - septembrist
  I had always assumed it was the Nazgul, but the way it was done suggests otherwise. As you say, killing the hobbits was not what the Nazgul would do. Also, the presence of Nazgul would have been felt, at least by Aragorn or perhaps Frodo.

• I think there is no limit on distance... - Aelric
  ...as the Nazgul are powered by Sauron's will alone. As long as Sauron's will remained, he could communicate and direct them from any distance.
• But the Nazgul WERE in Bree. - Annael
  Who attacked Merry, then? Does Bill Ferny, in addition to being ugly, have REALLY bad breath?
• I think you are both right! - Aelric
  The hobbits were in double danger in Bree, both having agents of Sauron and Saruman there. Funny that considering all the publicity, that the Nazgul would not have guesses that there was some other "power" trying to get at the hobbits. A quick round of questioning by the Nazgul would have broken Bill Ferny into telling everything he knew. Perhaps things would have gone differently had Sauron learned that Saruman was searching for Frodo as well?

• Sauron already knew. - septembrist
  When Pippin steals the Palantir and looks into it, Sauron demands to know why Saruman has not reported to him. He then shows no sign of surprise when Pippin reveals himself to be a hobbit. "Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once."
  
  
• Yes, but... - Aelric
  ...that was well after the events at Bree. At that time, I don't think that sauron realizes that Saruman is actively seeking the Ring for himself.
• I don't know. - septembrist
  Sauron had to know that something rotten was in the state of Isengard. However, it is possible that Saruman was able to keep his intentions from Sauron.

• somewhere (unfinished tales?), - inkgirl
  it is said that the Nazgul came upon the Southerner north of Isengard on their way to Bree, turned him into a double agent, and learned what Saruman was up to (or at least as much as he knew).

• They may not have known ... - Binky
  where exactly at Crickhollow. The house was pretty out of the way...they may have spent a few days poking around trying to get info out of Brandywine Hall with little sucess until they finally found it...

• Telepathy? - Eledhwen
  They're all linked together by their Rings, and their dominion by Sauron, and they don't speak much yet can produce coordinated attacks - I would guess, therefore, that they can communicate via a sort of telepathy. As for the attacks happening on the same night, I'd guess that the Riders in the Shire attacked Crickhollow first, in case the Ringbearer was still there - after all, Bree wasn't that far from the Shire, and they weren't to know that the hobbits in the inn were the ones they were following (I wouldn't imagine that they expected Frodo to have so many companions). But then, finding Crickhollow empty, the Riders in the Shire sent a mind-message to the ones in Bree, telling them what they had found, and so the Riders in Bree attacked the Pony as well. There's little point attacking somewhere you don't expect to be fruitful if the place you expect to find your prey hasn't been checked out first!
• They didn't have communicationwith Sauron - Ron Austin
  Otherwise the Fact that Sauron would know that the attack at the Ford had failed and send more watchers to Erigion without having to wait for the unhorsed riders to make their way back to Morder to report.
• ahh..we must have posted at the same time... - Binky
  we made some of the same points!! :)
• No we didnt'..oh well...its too early in the mornig..:) - Binky

Lord of the Rings : Book 1, Chapter 12
Flight to the Ford
A Discussion Led by Annael

• Chapter XII: Summing Up - Annael
  The Nazgul threat has been fulfilled: Frodo has been stabbed with a Morgul-knife. The Nazgul have withdrawn for the moment. Strife theorizes that they can't actually TAKE the Ring from Frodo and deliver it themselves; they have to get Frodo to hand-deliver it, as it were, by making him subject to their will. We don't know whether this is because Sauron wants to torment Frodo in revenge or because the Nazgul can't or are forbidden to handle the Ring.

• Thanks, Annael! Another excellent week... I am gaining.. - Patty
  so many new insights on this journey with my fellow tornadoes!
• Thanks, Annael. Great job. - GaladrielTX
• Excellent job again, Annael. Thank you. - Kimi
• Well done, Annael - - Eledhwen
  And thank you! Great double job there.
• Nicely done, Annael! - Idril Celebrindal
  You did a good job of leading the discussion of the last two chapters.
• Thank you. Two weeks in a row is a heavy burden to bear. - Blue Wizard
  A masterful job once again.

• Chapter XII, Part 9: The end of Book One. - Annael
  Comments on the story thus far?
• Great story. - septembrist
  Book one has a great build up of action and suspense and ends with a cliff hanger. Only the most unaffected person would not want to see what happens next.

• Tolkien has built up to - Kimi
  a breathless climax, with all nine Black Riders attacking at once, and Frodo obviously dangerously ill.

• My thoughts at this point. - Inferno
  My comments are going to be rather general, as I'm not actually re-reading with y'all. But here are some things I've noticed about the story to this point.

• Nice summary, Inferno! - Idril Celebrindal
  This is the sort of thing that the 57% of us who have read LOTR so many times that we've lost count tend to miss. It's great that you've retained the perspective of a new reader.
• Inferno...I didn't know you weren't reading... - Patty
  with us right now, as you've bought up many interesting points in this chapter, and so, I was going to ask if you might be interested in prompting one of the remaining chapters on Gorel's list....???? If you can't, it's ok, hope you'll still get the chance to post your insights...

• Well... (Gorel, I guess you need to see this too) - Inferno
  I've been doing research for my own writing over the past few months. Since I'm on my last book for research purposes, I can take one of the later chapters. If y'all don't mind, I'll take Book II Chapter 4: A Journey in the Dark. I like the section dealing with Moria, and I know I'll actually be around that week.
  I finished rereading LotR and the Silmarillion around January, so I've still got it fairly recently in mind. The years of English classes for my degree help a lot with the analysis stuff too. =) Thanks for thinking my opinion matters.

• I signed up for that on already... - Aelric
  But you can take it if you like, Inferno. I would rather give everyone a chance before I do my thrid chapter. : ) I can wait.

• Really? - Inferno
  It's not on the listing on Gorel's site. If you don't mind, that would be preferable for me, simply because I'm supposed to be on several road trips during July and August, but I know I'll be around the week of the 3rd of July, and can actually get online. =) I haven't really wanted to get involved in heading a discussion, since I'm not reading the books right now, but since Patty asked, I figured why not? =) I appreciate your willingness to surrender the chapter as well.

• No prob, Inferno! - Aelric
  Although Moria is one of my favorite parts of the story -- just the sheer scope and magnitude of that city blows my mind. THREE DAYS IN DARKNESS, GOING IN ONE DIRECTION ONLY!!! Holy smokes!

• Herm - Gorel
  I've listed Inferno for that chapter now, and it's true no one was listed before. Sorry, Aerlic, if I missed something. I guess it worked out in the end.

• No sweat, Gorel... - Aelric
  ...I get to do another one soon enough, I'm sure. : )~
• Will e-mail this to Gorel. Thanks a lot! - Patty
• *moment of stunned silence* - Wow! - Annael
  What a marvelous analysis, Inferno.
• very good story so far... - leo
  I think it is still kinda obvious that Tolkien planned on writing a sequel to the Hobbit, ie. a childrensbook, first. You could see this best in the chapters with Tom Bombadil I think.

• Tolkien has done a very good job thus far... - Patty
  of laying out the basic story line ending with a cliff hanger,introducing the main characters whose weaknesses or faults will be overcome to make them stronger beings at the end (with the exception of the elves, who basically will be leaving) creating in the reader a desire not only to know what happens to the end of the story but also what took place before the story begins, and lining us up on the side of the heros (good vs. evil). The mark of a great storyteller!
• Chapter XII, Part 8: Frodo - Annael
  Frodo has now borne the shard of the Morgul knife for 14 days. He has been in pain and unable to walk but it is not until they near the Ford that he begins to have trouble seeing and seems to be truly "fading." Is that just the passage of time, because the shard is nearing his heart, or because of the proximity of the Nazgul?
• Frodo's burden at the Ford. - Maggot
  Besides the excellent reasons already covered, does anyone think the ring itself may be playing a role here as well in its attempts to return to its master? Perhaps making the Nazgul more bold and potent. For although Strider has hinted he has had dealings with them before and they seem justly leary of engaging him unnecessarily, they are now willing to confront both him and an elf lord in wrath in apparent confidence they can attain their ends. The previous point about the Nazgul not being able to personally handle the ring seems borne out by their words to Frodo at the Ford. They say "...to Mordor we will take you" NOT 'give us the ring.'. The malice they serve wants not only the ring but its "theif" as well.
  It says a lot about the spirit and strength of Frodo, that he is able to resist them even so-called hollowly at such a point and just doesn't just attempt to throw them the ring and be rid of them and the terror of them.
  But it also says in the text that Frodo did have trouble seeing his friends clearly during the race to the Ford and he actually liked the coming of night when things would seem less dim. So the shard's effect was working strongly from the begining. More points?
  Thanks Annael for keeping us on track and focused.
• I think it's mainly - Kimi
  the passage of time while enduring that dreadful pain wearing him down. The progress of the shard and the proximimity of the Nazgul are probably also factors.
• all of those... - leo
  but, like Gandalf said, the shard was probably the worst. All along the journey they knew the Nazgul were following them (closely), also the passing of time and the closing in of the shard are linked to each other.
• I think that it is mostly the shard - Blue Wizard
  Gandalf says later that it had worked very deeply and had nearly pierced his heart, and that he was brought to Rivendell to be cured by Elrond only in the nick of time. But, having all Nine of the Nazgul present at once, after him, would certainly weaken him further at this critical moment.
• Proximity of Nazgul - Eledhwen
  That's my guess, anyhow. Added to the time factor. Also, at the Ford, he makes an effort to resist which probably draws on more strength than he actually has.
• Chapter XII, Part 7: At the Ford - Annael
  The elf-horse passes right before the nose of the Nazgul trying to cut Frodo off from the Ford. Everyone is at full gallop. Yet the elf-horse appears to cross the Ford well ahead of the Nazgul. Is there a power in the river that delays the Nazgul? Is that why the elf-horse stops on the far bank instead of going on?
• Asfaloth obeyed Glorfindel - Kimi
  by outriding the Nazgul steeds; he might be waiting for further instructions.

• The River and the Whole Valley of Rivendil ... - Ron Austin
  Is under the protection of Elrond. Much the same as Lorien ( influence of Elrond's ring ?) it takes an effort for the Nazgul to even try to enter Rivendil. The Nazgul attempt to influence Frodo to come out of Rivendil and only try to enter when Frodo collapses and can't return.
• Also when they saw Arwen in armor ... - Ron Austin
  They fell down laughing ,oops I meant they held back in terror.
• Was she wearing samurai armor? - Idril Celebrindal
  Because that makes all the difference, you know. :-)
• Apart from any power in the river ... - Idril Celebrindal
  The Nazgul don't like water. Asfaloth's speed and the Nazgul's reluctance to pursue Frodo into the Ford of Bruinen bought him a modest lead. If Frodo had not been influenced to rein in Asfaloth and stop on the far side of the ford, he would have been able to get pretty far up the trail to Rivendell before he collapsed.

• Noro lim, noro lim Asfaloth!..... - Patty
  I agree with Blue and Eledhwen; Asfaloth was just a steed of surpassing excellent and knew he had outrun the others and could pause to see what needed to be done next. Sorry to be a whiner, but I really wish I could have seen Glorfindel standing there yelling noro lim, to his horse. Arwen doing it wouldn't have the same effect (smiles). oh the suspense about how this all will be done is killing me! Unlike Gorel's post on the other board I find myself getting more pumped about the movies every day!!!
• I agree with Eledhwen - Blue Wizard
  Asfaloth is faster than the swiftest steeds of the Nazgul. I suspect that Shadowfax is the only horse on earth that could outrun him.

• Neigh! - Eledhwen
  Tolkien does say that 'even their [the Nazgul's] great steeds were no match for the white elf-horse of Glorfindel'. So presumably it simply outpaced the Riders. As for pausing, well, maybe it was neighing to Glorfindel ('Come along! Hurry up!'). Or maybe it guessed what might happen in the Ford, and wanted to watch?! Seriously, I don't know why the horse paused, it makes very little sense.
• Chapter XII, Part 6: Glorfindel - Annael
  This question comes to us from the College of Revisionist History (note their bonus question in the "Geography" section below):

• The Name could be an homage to a great Elf Hero - Ron Austin
  This Glorfindel could be a relative or heir of the deceased Glorfindel.
• Re the bridle - Kimi
  In the first edition it was worse: Glorfindel was described as riding with bridle and bit.

• I think Tolkien wrote somewhere in his letters - Draupne
  that the saddle and bridle was a mistake, he should have written something else.

• There is a definitive answer to this question - Blue Wizard
  In the Encyclopedia of Arda entry for Glorfindel. Apparently, Tolkien stated in his notes that the Glorfindel of the Silmarillion was not the Glorfindel of LOTR, but that he had used the same names inadvertently, and didn't pick up the error in editing.
  Later, however, he decided to reconcile the error by positing that Glorfindel was re-embodied by the Valar sometime during the Second Age and returned from Middle Earth.

• Name duplication in ME. - septembrist
  Don't suppose he could have used the Glorfindel the Younger approach and thus have avoided the re-embodiment argument.
  Are there any names that are duplicated in ME? I think dwarves used same names for different generations but did anybody else?
• Lots of name duplication. - Inferno
  Most of the Stewards of Gondor (and I believe several of the kings) had names like Turin, Turgon, Beren, etc-- they were named after heroes of the First Age. Boromir, had he lived to take the Rod, would have been Boromir II. Denethor was also a II. His father was Ecthelion, named after the elf of Gondolin who slew Gothmog. Come to think of it, Gothmog is also a repeated name, as it was that of the Lord of the Balrogs, and one of the leaders of Mordor's forces during the War of the Ring.

• Denethor - GaladrielTX
  There were two Stewards of Gondor named Denethor, but there was also a lord of the Nandorin elves in the First Age named Denethor (in The Silmarillion).
• But not among Elves I think? - Annael
  They don't seem to have the habit of naming their children after deceased ancestors or heroes. Probably because to them the person still exists - their spirit is just temporarily without a body in the Halls of Mandos.
• True. - Inferno
  Glorfindel is the only example I could cite of duplicate Elven names. But there are many examples of Men and hobbits (and to some degree, Dwarves) where names are duplicated for one reason or another. Perhaps another reason for this lack among elves is their smaller population and lower reproduction rate. Perhaps they simply haven't run out of names yet, and don't have a need to start repeating them.

• Legolas...... - Dubhdarra
  In Lost Tales part 2, Legolas is the name of the elf who led the escape party at Gondolin (see Greenbooks Q&A for April) where Glorfindel fell. But this may not count as a duplication since Tolkien didn't include it in the Sil and therefor caught his "mistake"(?) before publication. It's up for grabs as a question but I think it wouldn't count for the above mentioned reasons.
• Chapter XII, Part 5: The Troll Interlude - Annael
  Why do you suppose Tolkien included the part about the trolls? Holdover from the early "sequel to The Hobbit" phase of writing? Comic relief? Sam's poem speaks of a "Tom with his big boots on" - is that a reference to Tom Bombadil?
• I think it's there as a link - Kimi
  with the events "The Hobbit"; also as a little comic relief. It also, as Eledhwen said, shows us something more of Sam's capabilities.

• Yes I agree Kimi. And as someone mentioned below... - Patty
  even though this Tom's boots are mentioned, and hobbits don't normally wear boots, and Sam was really not familiar with anything else BUT hobbits, Tom B. was supposed to be first, so how could he have an uncle? I think it was just a bit o' rhyme Sam made up with a character generically named Tom.
• No, it's definitely Tom - Blue Wizard
  1. Sam had never been outside the Shire; Woody End was as far East as he'd ever traveled, so it is unlikely that he had even seen any of the Stoors who occasionally wore boots. So, he had probably never seen anyone wearing boots before he met Tom (other than the Black Riders). Which actually means that he composed the poem sometime in the three weeks or so between the time he met Tom and the time he recited it.

• Hmm. Something to think about. - Kimi
  But Tom B. doesn't walk with a limp.

• Definately - Strife
  Used as a connection between books for a "reality" of the sequel. And I also agree with the statement made about it being as a proof of Bilbo's tales, not just a filler for his old stories.
• I think he added this part.. - leo
  when he still planned on writing a sequel to the Hobbit, this scene follows the Tom Bombadil thing good, and maybe Tolkien added it as a comic relief wich made Frodo smile through his misery.
• I almost forgot - About Tom - Blue Wizard
  I don't think that there is any question but that the "Tom" of Sam's song is Tom Bombadil, with his big boots on.

• Tom, William and Bert - Blue Wizard
  Are not simply, in my mind, a holdover from the "Hobbit sequel" approach to LOTR's early drafts. For the story to work as a continuation of the history, of which the events of the Hobbit are but a part, it needs to have many links other than those immediately connected with the Ring itself - Bilbo, Gandalf, the Dwarves, oblique references to Dale and Bard and Beorn. It is perfectly natural to expect that, since the Hobbits each traveled to Rivendell by more or less the same road, they would encounter some of the same things. And yet, other than the encounter with the stone trolls, there is virtually none of this in LOTR. Having this encounter take place in LOTR makes the story more "real". It also suggests that some of the more fantastic elements of Bilbo's tale really happened, and are not just the exaggurations of a great story-teller.
• In addition ... - Eledhwen
  This episode helps to further Sam's characterisation. Frodo's comment that 'He'll end up by becoming a wizard - or a warrior!' comes true in the end, as Sam achieves a miracle in helping Frodo to the end, and is called a warrior by the Orcs in the Tower of Cirith Ungol, and also by the hobbits when he comes home. Already we're learning not to see Sam as just a simple gardener, and this is important because his later feats would seem ridiculous without earlier development.
• Chapter XII, Part 4: The Nazguls' Plan? - Annael
  After Frodo is stabbed, the Nazgul withdraw and seem to disappear. Strider is sure they are just waiting for the knife to do its work. Was that their entire plan, do you think? Why not just overpower the mortals and take the Ring? What do you think the Nazgul would have done if the Witch King had not managed to stab Frodo that night? Do the hobbits and Strider actually elude the Nazgul for a while, or are they being tracked all the time?
• HERE'S AN IDEA - Strife
  I hope I'm not to late to through an idea in here, but I think that with the sliver of the Morgol knife and the ring so close than either Sauron and/or the Nazgul had some sort of connection with Frodo. I mean, the Nazgul knew to wait for them near the Ford and the Witch-King also could control Frodo's will.
  I think that they were just underestimating the Grey Company and thought that they could just wait and easily take Frodo while unconscious or dead. They couldn't hold the ring themselves because it is said that any man who holds the ring will claim it as their own, and They served Sauron with there wraith souls and didn't want to gain power over him.

• That IS an idea! - Annael
  So you're saying the Ringwraiths couldn't take the Ring to Sauron themselves, they had to somehow get Frodo to deliver it in person? That makes sense.

• I definitely like this idea! - Blue Wizard
  It's also consistent with the comment in the discussion between Shagrat and Gorbag about how its no picnic working in Minas Morgul, as the Nazgul would just as soon freeze the flesh off of you and leave you on the "other side", as well as the Witch King's threat to Eowyn that she would be left naked to the lidless eye. Sounds like they got a lot of practice at doing exactly what they had in store for Frodo - and that they enjoyed their work to boot.
• I think the Ringwraiths wanted Frodo - leo
  to fall under their power, if they wanted to overtake the 'mortals' and take the ring for themselves they could have done that easily. Maybe they couldnt take the ring for their own, or maybe they scared off after seeing Strider with the fire....
• The Nazgul have limited options - Blue Wizard
  The Basksi characterization of them as twisted, hobbled cripples may be going a bit far, but they are traveling on horseback, and without the horses, Gandalf said they would be "crippled". As Aragorn pointed out, he wasn't overly concerned about losing the ponies in Bree, because the paths he was planning to take would be easier traveled on foot than on horseback. So, they Nazgul are pretty much limited to traveling along the East-West Road, and would not be able to track Aragorn and the Hobbits in the wild. Hence, the attack on Weathertop, which is along the road; the confrontation with Glorfindel at the bridge, when he drove them off; and the final attack at the Fords.

• An element of fear? - Eledhwen
  The fear of fire seems to have driven them off after stabbing Frodo, and I expect that Aragorn, even at this stage, was probably pretty scary angry. They probably stayed behind, gathering their strength and the other four Riders who had not been at Weathertop, ready to swoop in and collect Frodo when he became a wraith, when his companions would be stricken with grief. Perhaps they were also hoping that the walkers would lead them to Rivendell, and thus disclose the place where Imladris hid, so that Sauron's armies could eventually attack.
• Oops, Eledhwen, I posted before I read your response... - Patty
  as you can see from my post I agree about the fire!
• Remember that hobbits/Frodo are an unknown quantity to the Ringwraiths. - Nenya
  The Nazgul were facing an enemy in possession of the One Ring. The Nazgul had no good idea of how powerful Frodo was with the Ring, how much command he had over it, how much he understood. It rather makes sense in that context that they'd make a hit and run attack, and then wait to see what happened next. The subsequent actions of the Company would reveal strengths and weaknesses.

• don't forget ... - Ron Austin
  That they didn't know when Arwen would jump out and kick their sorry buts all the way back to Mordor!

• Excellent points, Nenya. - Kimi
  I think they would have just kept on trying to way-lay the Company and wound Frodo; as Blue says, at points where they could get at them from the road.
• Good points well taken. - septembrist
  Forgot about the little fact that Frodo had the Ring and the Wraiths would not know how much command he had of it. Also, Frodo's lunge at the Witch King and Aragorn's wrath probably terrified them into thinking that the Ring was working against them. They were also probably surprised and concerned that Frodo was not easily succumbing the the Morgul knife shard and enforcing the idea that the Ring was empowering him.
  Hence, they decided to attack all together at the Ford.
  
  
• Those mysterious Nazguls. - septembrist
  I've always wondered why they did not attack again after Weathertop. It should not have been difficult to overpower three hobbits and a man.
  As Nenlote suggests, I guess they were waiting for the knife shard to do its work and their job would be done. Another case of underestimating the strength of hobbits.
• I think that the plan was.... - Nenlote
  My reading of this incident was that if the tip of the knife worked its way to Frodo's heart it would kill him and because it was a Morgul knife the enchantment would still be on him and he would become a wraith forever in the service of Sauron.

• Yes, I agree, Nenlote. I think if Strider hadn't been there, though,.. - Patty
  wielding all that fire, things would have turned out differently.
• Chapter XII, Part 3: Another glimpse of Aragorn - Annael
  Pippin asks Strider how come he knows so much about the history of the empty lands they are traveling through, and he replies "The heirs of Elendil do not forget all things past." The hobbits do not react to this very large hint about who Strider really is, even though Frodo at least has heard of Elendil. Why not? How much do you think the hobbits know about, or care about, the history and kings of Men?
• Indeed.... - Strife
  I highly doubt any of the hobbits would have thought (or even cared much) that "Strider" a dirty ranger held some noble blood. At this point they all had thought that Rivendell was there final destination and beyond going back to their comfy little hobbit holes, nothing mattered. On several occations hobbits were quick to ignore the surrounding world. 1)only the Tooks and Bilbo were known to travel, and the others saw them as "queer folk" 2)The hobbits in the Shire were quick to say that the four had died, not thinking they went to save the Middle-Earth.
• Different reactions from each hobbit. - Eledhwen
  Merry and Pippin are more interested in finding somewhere warm and dry to rest and a food supply, which they see Rivendell providing; Sam, had he not been so worried about Frodo, would have reacted with interest, I guess, wanting more history; and Frodo might have guessed what Strider meant had he not been wounded. The comment seems more aimed at the reader than the hobbits.
• I think that they do react - Blue Wizard
  But, the hobbits do not realize that Strider is speaking of himself. They want to know how it is that he knows so much of the history of a place long since abandoned - and he replies that the heirs of Elendil have not forgetten. Almost immediately afterward, they ask him if he has been to Rivendell.

• Not much. - septembrist
  I think the hobbits are pretty much ignorant of the history of men or of any other race until they arrive at Rivendell. Even then, Frodo and Sam are the only ones at the Council and I do not know how much information they told Merry and Pippin the history of the Ring and those who had it.
  Frodo may have heard of Elendil, but he was no condition to analyze historical information, considering he has a Nazgul blade eating away at him.
  Another consideration is that Strider is their friend, not some high king on a throne. The Fellowhip is repeatedly surprised when Aragorn shows any kingly attributes.
  
  
• The Hobbits have led a very insular life. - Nenya
  Bilbo was an exceptional hobbit regarding his travel experiences and knowledge of lore not hobbit based. Frodo, through association with Bilbo and with Gandalf, would have known of Elendil, but that does not necessarily mean that the phrase "heir of Elendil" would have necessarily meant anything special, other than the fact that Strider/Aragorn could trace his ancestry back at least indirectly to Elendil.

• The Hobbits completely overlooked ... - Idril Celebrindal
  ... the hint Tom Bombadil dropped to them about Aragorn, so I'm not surprised that this one also went over their heads.

• About Frodo jumping to the right conclusion... - Nenya
  Even with all the hints dropped, Frodo may not have made the intuitive leap required to recognize Aragon's "true identity". Let's face it - the true King of the land had been gone for quite some time (26 generations). While the rulers of Gondor may have still kept in the forefront of their minds that they were Stewards only, and not the rightful kings, even they despaired of the eventual return of the King. Why then should the hobbits have realized who they had "stumbled across" at a common Inn? Forgive the comparison, but it would be very much like the return of Christ - many believe Christ will return, but how many would actually recognize him if they met him at an out of town restaurant?
• Chapter XII, Part 2: Geography - Annael
  Just for fun, draw a map of the hobbits' trail between Bree and Rivendell. How many times do they cross the Road, and what is the farthest point away they get from it?

• I double checked this last night - Blue Wizard
  After leaving Bree by the main road, Aragorn leads them north by a narrow path, toward Archet, but passing to its East. They then head East, through the Chetwood and the Midgewater Marshes. This is a slower, but more direct route, as the road curves to the South to avoid the marshes.

• Chapter XII, Part 1: The hands of the king - Annael
  After Frodo is wounded, Strider finds some athelas. He also sings a song over the hilt of the Morgul-knife. It is Glorfindel's touch, however, that makes Frodo's arm feel better. Is this consistent with the power of healing Aragorn later shows in Minas Tirith?
• The Athelas... - Strife
  I beleive that it was more the Athelas than Aragorn at this point that helped to keep Frodo alive. Although Aragorn has the emense power of the King, he wasn't in his own.
  When the Athelas is used in the House of healing, it made those who were in the room feel reborn. It gave them an energy which they couldn't explain. So I think that the Athelas was what kept Frodo alive until Glorfindel and Elrond finally cured him.
• I think it is... - leo
  we just don't know the link between the hands of the healer are the hands of the King, because this link isn't made yet, that happens in Minas Tirith.
• I like the idea that Aragorn's - Kimi
  healing powers become stronger as he "comes into his own".

• Also, Glorfindel ... - Idril Celebrindal
  Glorfindel demonstrates some of the power of Elvish healing in reducing Frodo's pain. Elves are more in touch with the transcendent, spiritual world than humans are, and Glorfindel's healing touch works on Frodo's spirit as well as his body.

• The hands of a healer - Blue Wizard
  The efforts of Aragorn to heal Frodo prepare us for the later scene at the Houses of Healing, and contrast with it as well. Aragorns's efforts in the wilderness are pallative if ineffectual, much as the Rangers themselves - kings in exile in their own land, able to keep watch on and protect in some measure the innocent and simple, like those of Bree and the Shire, but unable to establish their own kingdom. In the morgul knife, he faces an opponent beyond his own measure. Only with the assistance of Glorfindel, and then ultimately from Elrond himself, is Frodo saved. But, Aragorn has not yet come into his own, as he will have by the episode of the Houses of Healing. The sword is still broken; he is in the wild; he has not yet declared himself. The efficacy of his healing efforts in the Return of the King, especially as constrasted with his less successful treatments here, are symbolic of the fulfillment of his destiny.

• Agreed. - Eledhwen
  Who's Natty Bumpo??

• He is the hero - Blue Wizard

Lord of the Rings : Book 2, Chapter 1
Many Meetings
A Discussion Led by Blue Wizard

• Book II, Chapter 1 - "Many Meetings"-#8: Arwen - Blue Wizard
  In this chapter we get a physical description of Elrond, Glorfindel and Arwen, and we see her for the first time. How old in "human" years do they look?

• The sentence in which Arwen turns towards "him" - GaladrielTX
  is interesting because of the vagueness of the pronouns "he" and "him". Just who is Arwen looking at, Frodo or Aragorn, in the passage below?

• For the first part... - septembrist
  the "him" refers to Frodo. It would be hard for Frodo to know that Arwen pierced Aragorn's heart.
  For the second part, the second "he" refers to Aragorn as it is Frodo who is doing the "knowing". Thus, "he (Frodo)knew that he (Aragorn) beheld things as they once had been in this same place"
• hmmm..maybe for a fleeting moment... - Binky
  she wonders as Galandriel did what would she do if offered the ring??? It seems like that must have at least crossed everyone else's mind at least once. Some rejected the idea at once..(Like Faramir and Gandalf and Aragorn) some mulled over it for a period of time like Boromir...

• Yep, that debate's old, all right. - Kimi
  The problem is that people often (not always) interpret the term "in his prime" relative to their own ages. A teenager who used to post on Casting Rumours thought Elrond should look about 25. I think between 35 and 45 (I've read that men typically don't reach their full endurance [no, I don't mean just sexually] until the age of 35). A seventy-year-old might think Elrond should look 65. I'm right, of course :-)

• No debate from me - Malbeth
  Those are pretty much exactly the ages I imagined for all three. Probably evidence for your relative age theory. I'm guessing, of course, but based on your 'first read LOTR' date of 1974, I suppose we're pretty close in age.

• *Quickly checks Malbeth's bio* - Kimi
  Yes, born the same year! Interesting.

• Well ... - Eledhwen
  I also imagine Arwen as seeming early 20s - somewhere around my own age, in fact. Elrond, about 40, of the sort of 40 that ages late. Glorfindel - yes, I agree with you, about 25, an old 25.

• Thanks, Eledhwen. - Kimi
  Nice to see that we envisage them the same sort of apparent age, whatever our own chronological ages.

• Arwen's glance at Frodo. - Maggot
  Seemed Arwen was as interested in seeing Frodo the ring bringer, as Frodo was to see her. He is a little spellbound by her qualities and their depth. And she in turn having her first chance to see him does something similar to what Galadriel does later on at their first meeting, and approvingly checks out his internal qualities as well. Could she have been as struck by his regard and therefore had her attention drawn to him, as he was to her? I don't mean in any romantic sort of sense, but as in the meeting of two unfully manifested but important personalities who can appreciate each other perhaps more thouroughly than others?
• She takes after her grandma. - Eledhwen
  I think Arwen has a measure of Galadriel's deep sight, handed down on both sides; maternal from Galadriel, kin of Feanor, and paternal from Melian the Maia. She probably knows all about the Ring. I bet she's also interested because she knows Frodo has become a friend of Aragorn. All of which is a lot from a person who looks like a girl of twenty!
• More than that . . . - Annael
  No doubt she knows that the reappearance of the Ring means that Aragorn's fate, and hers, will soon be decided.
• Let me suggest a slightly different take on this passage - Blue Wizard
  It strikes me that this is one of those instances where Tolkien is using religious imagery. I think that the argument that Gandalf, or Aragorn, or Frodo, or the three of them together, is intended to be a Christ-figure in LOTR; or that Elbereth, or Galadriel, or Arwen, or the three of them collectively, is intended to be a Marian image is over simplistic, and confuses, in the professor's own words "applicability" with "allegory".

• A nice reading, Blue. - Kimi
  It's difficult to avoid sophistry (and hence being boring) when talking of Christ-like figures and Marian images, but when I referred to Aragorn as a "type" of Christ, I didn't mean in any allegorical sense, but in the sense commonly used in scriptural commentary. As for Marian images, I believe they're there in LOTR, but usually (perhaps always) unintentional. When you get a devout Catholic like JRRT, raised in the tradition of veneration of Mary, and with that whole concept mingled with his vision of his own mother as a martyr for her faith, he can’t help but be influenced by his vision of the Virgin whenever he writes of near-celestial beauty and goodness in female characters. He says as much in the “Letters”.

• very insightful Blue Wizard - Maggot
• Book II, Chapter 1 - "Many Meetings" - #7: The Fading of Dwarves? - Blue Wizard
  Gloin gives Frodo a long account of the doings of dwarves, which eventually confuses him. He does note, with interest, the happenings affecting people noted in the Hobbit: Bilbo's companions, the Kingdom of Dale, the Beornings. Gloin relates that, while they make good armor and swords, they have lost many of the secrets of their forefathers in metalwork, and only in mining and building do they surpass the skill of the old days.

• fading in general - Maggot
  Weren't all the older races fading toward the end of the Second Age, as the time for the prominence of humans approaches? Wouldn't the dwarves' lessening be a part of that general tendency? Perhaps more acute since they are the offspring of Aule first sanctioned by Illuvatar, but with perhaps less connection to Middle Earth itself than any of the other races since they were made in secret and without any input from Yavana?
  It seems that Tolkien sort of equated real industrialzation with Mordor and it's minions; particularly Saruman. What happened in the Shire, Orthanc, and in the lands around Barad-Dur were a direct outgrowth of malicious ambition in action. Yet in the big picture it helps to bring about the original intents of the plan of time already in place. While the change of emphasis in skills among the dwarves does not seem so immediately related to malicious intent, but appears as a sort of natural aging that they are not fighting, but making the best of; becoming even better at it than their forebears.
• Fading of the Dwarves - Idril Celebrindal
  I read Gloin's thoughts on the loss of Dwarvish metalworking skills as a comment on what the Dwarves had lost in the disasters they encountered during the Third Age. Besides the sack of Erebor by Smaug, there was the Dwarf and Orc War, the loss of the Dwarvish settlements in the Grey Mountains, and most significantly, the loss of Khazad-Dum.

• Durin is reborn? Idril, I don't recognize ... - Patty
  this, is it in the appendices or another source? I didn't remember it.
• He's mentioned in the LOTR Appendices - Idril Celebrindal
  The Dwarf genealogies in the LOTR Appendices list Durin IV (and last) as being born during the Fourth Age. I also read somewhere (either in the Appendices or in the Histories of Middle-earth; neither is with me so I can't look it up) that the Dwarves reclaim Khazad-Dum after the final rebirth of Durin.
  
  
• Fading in general - Malbeth
  The creation of superbly crafted items like jewelry, weapons, armor, etc. is an individual act. Mining and building are group activities, requiring cooperation more than individual brilliance. This illustrates the idea of fading of all peoples, not just elves.

• Adding to malbeths thoughts - Hengist
  Yes metal working etc are individual crafts and mining /building are group tasks.
  Given the secretive nature of the dwarves it is likely that the metal smiths would not share theyre secrets, and being so intense and because of the "lack" of female dwarves? they may not have had any sons to pass on the secrets to. Then when they died the secrets would be lost for all time. However as mining/building are group activities more dwarves would know about the methods, therefore the info would be passed on and advances would occur based on the original knowledge. In time skill at mining/ building would be far more advanced than metal working.
• In the same vein - Nenya
  To create jewelry, armor, weapons requires an intimate knowledge of the medium you are using. If the final product is of superior quality, it is because the artisan was "in touch" with the metal and gems being used. For lack of a better word, this can takes on almost a "magical" feel (magic being mis-used much in the way that Sam misused it when he said he wished to see some Elven magic and was corrected in Lothlorien). To make a work of art on that level, you need to have the work bend to the medium.

• Hadn't looked at it that way, but a very interesting idea, I like it =) - Jester_rm
  I had viewed it as a lack of inspiration, since it seemed that the dwarves "fed" off of the commerce with elves, thereby increasing the quality/beauty of items from both, but I like your idea as well =)
• Reflects changes in the Shire - Eledhwen
  Like much of the rest of Middle-earth, the dwarvish kingdoms are becoming more industrialised and built up (as much as ME ever would be built up!) This reflects what has happened in the Shire by the time the hobbits return home.
• Perhaps one of the inspirations for their skill - Kimi
  in metalwork was their greater dealings with elves in days gone by. I get the feeling that the elvish love of beauty might have inspired the dwarves to push the limits of their skill in making both beautiful jewellery and armour that was as lovely as it was functional (Frodo's mithril coat, supposed to have been made for a young elf long ago, springs to mind here).

• IIRC, in the Sil - Jester_rm
  the dwarves first worked in iron and copper I think, and only moved to precious metals after meeting the elves...I always got the impression that the elves were gifted in the areas of astheticly? beautiful items, and the dwarves were more talented in the areas of practicality and strength more than looks. The interaction between them benefitted both, the elves weapons grew stronger (ref: halls of Nargothrond, arms and armor of Doriath, etc.), and the dwarven items gained more inherent beauty (ref: Nauglimir, etc.)
• Dwarves and Elves - Idril Celebrindal
  One of the reasons why the Dwarves of the First Age were so productive and skilled is that they often worked closely with the Elves, to the benefit of both races. The Elves taught the Dwarves much about aesthetics, and the Dwarves taught the Elves much about engineering. It is sad that the two races later became estranged ... who knows what they could have achieved if they had continued to work together? (Then again, the Elves of Hollin under Celebrimbor had a good relationship with the Dwarves of Khazad-Dum, and look what trouble eventually arose out of that partnership!)
• Book II, Chapter 1 - "Many Meetings" - #6: The Hobbits - Blue Wizard
  We see this chapter through Frodo's eyes, as we do most chapters, but we see a bit of the other's as well.

• Speaking of seeing through different characters' eyes, - GaladrielTX
  I like that we get a glimpse of Gandalf's thoughts in this chapter, when he examines Frodo. I don't recall that happening very often. Sometimes we observe his physical reactions and sometimes he says what he's thinking, but we don't often go inside his head.
• They emphasise what we've already seen - Kimi
  Sam is still very humble, and still thinks of himself as a servant. We're getting a strong hint here that he's going to be seen as the equal of the other hobbits from this point. His reaction also shows that his first thought is for Frodo, and his first desire to care for Frodo.

• As to Merry. . . - Blue Wizard
  what struck me is that he is naturally excited about a feast (who wouldn't be, especially if you're a Hobbit whose been on short rations for a couple of weeks in the wild) but that he's interested in the preparations for them - he, who seems to be the principal logistical organizer in the group.
• Yes, I'm sure . . . - Annael
  that Merry is a Capricorn like me, and oy, am I an organizer! Always concerned with the details and the "how"; I'm always the one who brings the napkins on the picnic.

• Can't you just tell - Kimi
  that Pippin has older sisters?

• I'm sure you're right! - Annael
  Yup, spoiled and petted and the family clown to boot, after all those years of being put on the table after dinner and encouraged to caper about and sing.
• As for merry - Hengist
  I agree with Kimi about sams first thoughts are for frodo and that pippin is still as flippant as ever. Also agreee with the comments about merry and the feast.
  But i think that its of importance that the preparations begin only when frodo awakens, why gandalf and elrond can get the ifo they require from the other hobbits or from aragorn- all of the other discussion really precludes the hobbits so why wait for frodo to awaken. Perhaps gandalf and elrond sense that frodo still has a part to play
• Book II, Chapter 1 - "Many Meetings": #5 - Three Scenes - Blue Wizard
  There are three principal "scenes" in Many Meetings.

• Frodo and Bilbo - Maggot
  Wasn't the last time Frodo spoke with Gandalf he was lamenting Bilbo's not stabbing that vile creature--Golum? Seeing the transformation in his beloved guardian in the presence of the ring, both he and Bilbo are taken by a ghastly surprise. And i tend to think this is a further resolution of that initial regret Frodo had. Both he and Bilbo get a much more brought home lesson in the nature, intent and effect of the ring, and a greater compassion for any creature that has or is it's bearer. And are now bound more closely together than ever. i think this scene begins the preparation of Frodo and foreshadows his forced collaboration with Gollum. Just as Frodo's conversation with Gloin is meant to be both past and present to the story.
• Annael has said it well - Kimi
  I only have a few small things to add.

• POV - Blue Wizard
  As Inferno so aptly pointed out in the summary of Book I, the POV in Book I is almost exclusively Frodo's (there's a bit of Bilbo's POV and a little of Sam's). That Tolkien has chosen to write this Chapter as revolving around three conversations: with Gandalf, with Gloin, and with Bilbo, continues to maintain this POV. We, the readers, just like Frodo, know only so much as we are told by these three people
• I agree with both of you. - Eledhwen
• Gloin - Iolath
  The conversation with Gloin serves as both a link to the past and a hint of the larger troubles in the world beyond the Quest area. I always wondered why more Peoples didn't participate in the battles on Gondor's side, but the Appendices discuss all the other fighting going on in the realms of Mirkwood, Lorien, Dale, Iron Mountain, etc, and explains why our Fellowship and its allies were on their own.
• Tying up loose ends. - Annael
  Frodo's talk with Gandalf tells us what happened after Frodo crossed the Ford. We also get some more explanation about who the Black Riders are and what their powers consist of, as well as more information about Elves - and about Aragorn. And we get a teaser about why Gandalf was missing, although Saruman is still "under cover" for another chapter. (Aside: Tolkien seems bent on keeping us from suspecting Saruman's full treachery until the Orcs take Merry and Pippin. Only in retrospect can we look back and say things like "The attack at Bree was primarily the work of Saruman's agents.")

• Book II, Chapter 1 - "Many Meetings" - #3: On the Other Side - Blue Wizard
  Gandalf explains to Frodo the effect of the ring on him, entering the wraith world, but also comments on the Elves and Glorfindel in particular:

• Elves from Valinor. - Inferno
  Firstly, Glorfindel has to be one of the Noldor. None of the Vanyar returned from the Blessed Realm except during the War of Wrath-- and all those returned again to Valinor. Of the Teleri, the only one to set foot again in Middle-Earth after having seen the Trees was Thingol-- and he's long dead. Therefore, Glorfindel is of Noldorin descent. As has already been suggested, his golden hair ties him into the line of Finarfin-- where exactly, we don't know, as he's not specifically mentioned.

• That's a really good post. Inferno, and I hope - Kimi
  you'll forgive a picky little point in response.

• A couple of comments - Malbeth
  Regarding Elrond's power to heal being greater than Glorfindel's, I'm sure Elrond's healing power was greatly enhanced by Vilya. And as for who at Rivendell had the power to withstand the Nine, I don't think you can dismiss Elrond and his children; the line of Luthien had great power. I suspect Elrond, Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen could all withstand at least some of the Black Riders. Just a theory, any other opinions on this?
• Elrond is a scholor ... and Glorfindal didnt have the time at the ford... - Ron Austin
  to fight off the Riders and attempt a healing on Frodo.
• Good point. - Inferno
  I had failed to take Vilya into consideration. That alone would make quite a difference. Thanks for pointing that out.

• Heredity is a complex issue - Kimi
  both in real life and in LOTR. I'm thinking of one of my Swedish cousins; she and I are uncannily alike, even to some of our mannerisms, and yet we are fourth cousins, and taking simple statistics should have a tiny amount of common genetic material. Neither of us resemble our respective sisters.

• Could Glorfindel handle all nine together? - Malbeth
  I took the "power to withstand the Nine" to mean power to withstand the Nazgul, but not necessarily all of them at once. Remember, Gandalf said, "On foot, even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not withstand all nine at once".

• Very nice, thank you, Inferno :-) - Kimi
• Good point, Malbeth - Kimi
  Blood (i.e. heredity) is so important in LOTR, and the blood of Melian via Luthien is still strong in Elrond's line.
• Yes, I agree about Elrond and his children - Blue Wizard
  They certainly had the power to ride against the Nine, even though they hadn't lived in Elvenhome. Come to think of it, Gandalf said that there was power in the Grey Havens to withstand Sauron (at least for a time), presumably referring to Cirdan and his folk. But Cirdan also never liven in Elvenhome either - he was persuaded by Osse to remain in Middle Earth.

• Impressive, Inferno...this addresses the post - Patty
  I posted above about sending out other powerful beings like Glorfindel and from wence their power comes. Well researched reply.
• I'll take the easy ones - Kimi
  Oh, there aren't any easy ones!

• That's a bunch of questions, Blue. - Malbeth
  I'll take a shot at a couple of them. It's tough to say what house of princes Glorfindel belongs to. If we assume we're talking about the same Glorfindel that lived in Gondolin, he was of the "House of the Golden Flower of Gondolin", whatever that means. I would assume he was one of the people of Fingolfin, since he was in Gondolin.

• To perhaps narrow the questions - Blue Wizard
  particularly about the Blessed Realm. Gandalf says that elves who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds. There are a couple of interesting implications to this, if we think about it.

• Legolas provides an example - Malbeth
  that even elves who have never been over the sea, and don't even have ancestors among the Eldar, are still much more intouch with the spiritual realm than Men, Hobbits, or Dwarves. He immediately recognized the Balrog, although he certainly had never seen one before. He was also the first to recognize Gandalf the White, even before Aragorn who knew him so well. And he didn't fear the Paths of the Dead, I guess because the spirits of the dead were not foreign to him, and thus not frightening.

• Book II, Chapter 1 "Many Meetings": #2 - It May Have Been Better So - Blue Wizard
  Gandalf congratuates Frodo on the others for making it to Rivendell through so many dangers, and Frodo tells him that they could not have done so without Strider. But, he says that they needed Gandalf and did not know what to do without him.

• Also ... - Eledhwen
  I too agree about Saruman. But also, having Gandalf with them would have alerted everyone - Gandalf's presence signalling that somethin great was happening. Aragorn's presence at this stage means little to most.
• Good point, Eledhwen, "Strider" was "only a ranger" then.... - Patty
• Good point about Saruman, Kimi. - Malbeth
  Discovering his treachery was vital; otherwise the Fellowship probably would have headed for the Gap of Rohan, which would have been disastrous.
• I think it might be because - Kimi
  the Hobbits have been forced to become tougher and more self-reliant. Strider saved them, but they had already learned a good deal more caution, and travelling with Strider was no picnic. This has prepared them for the journeys ahead.

• Book II, Chapter 1 - Many Meetings: #1 - The Most Dangerous Moment - Blue Wizard
  Frodo wakes in Rivendell, attended by Gandalf, recalling his adventures so far as if it were a dream. Gandalf tells him how he was starting to fade from the Morgul knife..."But you have some strength in you, my dear hobbit! As you showed in the Barrow. That was touch and go: perhaps the most dangerous moment of all. I wish you could have held out at Weathertop."

• Could he possibly mean . . . - Annael
  that Frodo managed to resist the Barrow-wight's spell somehow? If Frodo had not done so, as everyone else has pointed out, there was no help nearby, and no one would have known even where to look for them.
• I like that reading, Annael. - Kimi
  It "scans" nicely like that: the barrow was dangerous; Frodo "held out" there; Gandalf wishes Frodo had "held out" at Weathertop.

• That's always struck me ... - Eledhwen
  As being an odd thing to say. I suppose that, like Kimi said, it has something to do with the hobbits being alone, and the three who could help Frodo defend the Ring were unconscious. If Bombadil hadn't been on hand in the barrows, there would have been nobody to help Frodo. Whereas on Weathertop, although the foe was greater, so was the help.
• Frodo's fate was sealed when he was stabbed with the Nazgul knife... - Patty
  and although he was healed, of a sort, by Elrond, perhaps Gandalf knew that he would not ever be entirely cured now, and would not now be able to live in peace and happiness for long in the shire no matter the outcome of the ring. Perhaps it was regret for Frodo's future that he was seeing--although the Undying lands would be a temporary respite, he'd not be able to enjoy his home. ????
• I understand Gandalf's point... - Malbeth
  but I don't agree. The dangerous part was that they were on their own, with no help available. But I suspect that Bombadil was close, and would have saved at least Frodo. Wait, what am I thinking? Disagreeing with the wisest of the Maiar? Oh well, what do I have to lose? I'd vote for Weathertop as the most dangerous; there was help from Glorfindel at the ford, and Gandalf knew the flood would be very helpful. But Weathertop was isolated, days from any help, with only Aragorn to defend against the Black Riders.
• Is it the most dangerous? - Kimi
  It surprised me that Gandalf said that, given the attack on Weathertop and at the Ford. Perhaps he means that in the barrow the Hobbits were on their own, with no powerful minders on hand.

• "I wish you could have held out" - Kimi

Lord of the Rings : Book 2, Chapter 2
The Council of Elrond (1st half)
A Discussion Led by Nenya
The Council of Elrond (2nd half)
A Discussion Led by Malbeth

• Book II, Chapter 2, The Council of Elrond: Summing up the first half - Malbeth
  The Council of Elrond is the longest chapter in The Lord of the Rings, and even just considering the first half of it covers a lot of ground. For one thing, we're introduced for the first time to three characters who will make up a third of the Fellowship: Gimli, Legolas, and Boromir. They have come from different regions, one sent as a bearer of ill tidings of the escape of Gollum, and the other two seeking counsel from Elrond about threats from Mordor and mysterious warnings of doom.

• well done Malbeth and Nenya! - leo
  a difficult chapter, but nonetheless some great summing up!
• Thank you, Malbeth and Nenya! - Idril Celebrindal
  Thanks to everyone else, too, for a great discussion of this chapter!
• Great job both of you on a long jam-packed chapter. - septembrist
• Great job, Malbeth and Nenya - Kimi
  Again, excellent threads this week. A wonderful joint effort.
• Book II, Chapter 2, The Council of Elrond: Summing up the second half - Nenya
  "The Council of Elrond" is where the loose threads of the history of the One Ring are pulled together. Not only does the reader finally get to find out what the heart of the trilogy is all about, but he also gets his first good look at some of the players, and greater insight into the significance of other characters. Boromir already shows signs of pride and a little bullheadedness. We see the mildly antagonistic beginnings of the friendship between Glóin and Legolas.

• Great job, Nenya, with many thought provoking questions! - Patty
• Thanks to you as well Nenya - Blue Wizard
  The two of you made a great team for a very complex chapter with many, many threads to sort through.
• Great job and thanks, Nenya - Malbeth
  Thanks for taking half the chapter - I think the whole thing would have been overwhelming. As always, I learned a lot from your insights and those of many others.

• Good job yourself, Malbeth. - Nenya
  Since you went first, I got a chance to sit back and watch how it's done. I really got a break that way. I look forward to seeing you do more chapters.
• Oh, good job! - GaladrielTX
  I've really enjoyed this week. I especially enjoyed the point you made below about the symmetry of Gandalf becoming Sauron's jailer. I'd never noticed that!
• Re: Gandalf and Saruman role reversal - Malbeth
  I hadn't ever thought of it, either - that was Idril :-)
• Idril?! Doh! - GaladrielTX
  Well, thanks to Idril, then!
• Good work, Malbeth. You and Nenya carved this chapter...+ - Patty
  in two at logical points and covered all the "meat" in it well. Your summing up was very well done, also. Hope you'll do more of them in TTT.
• Well, I can't speak for my partner Nenya - Malbeth
  But I'll definitely volunteer again. It won't be as scary the second time!

• So Nenya speaks for herself... - Nenya
  As always, I remain in awe of the knowledge displayed by many members of this Board. I enjoyed doing this half a chapter, but I had a really hard time coming up with discussion questions; I just don't have the insights that many of you around here display on a constant basis, nor the ready recall of names and events that give these discussions depth.

• Thank you, Nenya - GaladrielTX
  I've really enjoyed this week's discussion. Didn't want it to end, frankly.
• Excellent summary Malbeth - Blue Wizard
  Many thanks for helping to lead the discussion this week.
• Book II, Chapter 2, and "The Council of Elrond": From the hands of the weak - Nenya
  "Many are the strange chances of the world and help oft shall come from the hands of the weak when the Wise falter." Gandalf utters these words of foresight in The Silmarillion, and both he and Elrond seem almost too comfortable with sending Frodo and Sam (two naďve and inexperienced Hobbits) out in charge of overseeing the One Ring's destruction. Their complacency would seem almost to fly in the face of all common sense. Weigh Frodo's actions to date, and speculate as the whether this trust is being given on blind faith, or if Frodo has already exhibited the strengths he'll need to follow this course through to the end.
• It was called a "fool's hope" - Sauron the Maia
  On the surface the whole strategy devised at the Council of Elrond for disposing of the One Ring seems really nutty. It still seems nutty to me. But then, I think Gandalf may have believed that Bilbo was fated to find the One Ring under the Misty Mountains; and he probably believed it was fated that Frodo should carry it to Mount Doom and cast it into the fire. Gandalf must have though much on all the mischances which caused the ring to come into the possession of a Hobbit, and so perhaps he inwardly concluded that it was the will of the Valar that this should be. It was the will of the Valar that Hobbits should be Sauron's undoing. (It hurts to say that.)
• No one has the strength to destroy - Kimi
  the Ring.

• well said, Kimi...gee, one says that a lot when one posts late. - Patty
• Don't I know it! - Kimi
  I either post at unsociable hours, or I go through saying "I agree" at other people's posts. Such a clever lot around here!
• Well, while that's true, there are a lot of clever folks here... - Patty
  many of the answers to our Tolkien questions are pretty much how everyone feels, so if you don't get there when a question is first posted someone else gets to say the obvious first. Unless your name is Blue. :o) (smiles)
• Even if... - leo
  someone else had taken upon him the task of taking the ring to Mordor, I doubt if Frodo would have been able to hand it over, or if he could, if he could have standed being left behind.
• So you don't feel Frodo was as strong as Bilbo? - Nenya
  Maybe Bilbo would have been the better choice after all.
• The Ring was stronger than both of them - Idril Celebrindal
  Bilbo couldn't physically have completed the Quest, regardless of whether he was still morally strong enough to resist the Ring. And Frodo, although he was strong enough (and lacking enough in ambition) to fight against the Ring for a long time -- longer than anyone else probably could have -- did finally succumb to it.

• Any volunteers? - Blue Wizard
  I agree with what has been written below, but there is a corresponding element in the equation. Neither Gandalf nor Elrond have it within their power to appoint someone to this task. Someone must volunteer to do it, and (notwithstanding Bilbo's offer) Frodo is the one who does it. They can, at best, give him guidance and counsel, supplies and companions, but the task of seeking to destroy the ring is not something that they can ordain another to undertake.

• I'm curious why Boromir didn't volunteer for the job. - Nenya
  In fact, he didn't utter a peep when Frodo said he'd do it (though he almost laughed out loud at Bilbo volunteering). Surely he must have thought he'd be a better man for the job, since hubris tended to be his trademark.
• Boromir didn't want the Ring destroyed, so - septembrist
  he would not have volunteered to destroy it. He would quickly have volunteered to take the Ring to Minas Tirith. He continued to lobby his point until the end.
• hmmm ... but if he volunteered ... - Nenya
  If he'd put himself forward as Ringbearer, he would have been in a position to see that the ring was not destroyed. I'm not saying that he'd have started out that way, but he might have held it in the back of his head that he had clearer vision regarding the usefulness of the Ring than the rest of the Council did. He might have even been able to convince himself that he was the best choice for Ringbearer. After all, the Ring was probably already exerting its influence on him.

• The Council had decided that... - septembrist
  the Ring was to be destroyed and not to be used. Boromir to have volunteered would have been honor bound to do what was decided. Hence, he did not volunteer and bind himself to the decision.
• Boromir is not particularly cunning - Idril Celebrindal
  He's far too truthful and straightforward to think up a devious plot like the one you're suggesting. He also may not have thought far enough ahead to come up with an alternative plan if he couldn't persuade the Council to send the Ring to Minas Tirith. (Remember, he had just arrived in Rivendell that day.)

• It may not have been a fully developed "plot" in his mind yet. - Nenya
  But I think it is undeniable that the first stirrings of the Ring's call to him were occurring during the Council meeting. It would be akin to me telling myself that I'll just drive a couple of blocks out of my way to go past the really good Italian Ice place on my way home. Just because I want the change of scenery. I'm not really going to stop there. I'd ruin my dinner and I don't need the extra empty calories. Just drive by, yeah, that's the ticket. It's a nice alternate route.

• A bit of both, I think - Idril Celebrindal
  Frodo isn't entirely untried. He has proved his bravery and endurance on the journey from Hobbiton to Rivendell. I think Gandalf and Elrond, both of whom are very perceptive, sense his inner strength and resilience. (Think of Gandalf's comments about Frodo becoming like a vessel filled with light, which we discussed earlier.) Gandalf in particular is well-acquainted with Hobbits and knows that they have a toughness and resourcefulness that aren't always apparent to casual oabservers.

• Not exactly "in charge" - Malbeth
  I don't think Elrond ever had any intention of sending Frodo and Sam alone; he knew that Gandalf and Aragorn would be going, at the very least. But I think both Elrond and Gandalf believed strongly that Frodo was meant to be the ringbearer, and to tamper with this fate would be disastrous. And it wasn't entirely blind faith. Twice during the flight to Rivendell, Frodo had shown his strength: in the barrow, and resisting the Morgul-knife for such a long time. And once since then: volunteering to take on this almost hopeless quest took great strength.
• Did Elrond's ring give him an extra insight about the fate of the One Ring and... - Ron Austin
  Frodo's destiny as a Ringbearer?
• Perhaps that helps explain it. - Nenya
  Especially since Gandalf was also in possession of one of the Three, and he also seemed to foresee that Frodo was destined to carry the One Ring to its doom. But, if that were the case, why did not Galadriel also foresee the same thing without having to test Frodo? She did not exempt him from the test of heart when the Company was in Lothlorien, after all.
• I think she also "knew" - Kimi
  he was fated to be the Ringbearer. The test was partly to help the tested see their own weakest point, and therefore where their personal greatest temptation lay. It's not so much Galadriel testing their fitness as if she has authority over them, but her helping them see deeper into themselves.

• "Meant to be ringbearer" - Nenya
  That implies that the Higher Powers were taking a hand in the proceedings. Do you think this was the case?
• Higher powers - Malbeth
  Yes, I think the Valar and/or Iluvatar were involved. Bilbo finding the ring, Legolas, Gloin & Gimli, Boromir all arriving at Rivendell at just the right time, perhaps even Bombadil arriving just in time in the Old Forest. There's some subtle manipulation going on here, helping as much as possible without directly intervening.
• I agree. All seems to have a subtle hand or hands at work steering... - Patty
  always in the same direction. Even the setbacks (the Barrow, Weathertop) are not allowed to entirely stop events from heading in the direction the story takes--always to Rivendell and eventually to Mordor.
• Book II, Chapter 2, and "The Council of Elrond": Bilbo's Offer - Nenya
  Was Bilbo's offer to take up the burden of the Ring truly altruistic, or was it due to the "call of the Ring" luring him to retake ownership? Recall that in Book I, Chapter 1 "A Long-Expected Party" Bilbo exhibits some reluctance to part with the ring. He does manage to do so with minimal coercion, though.
• I agree with Blue - Kimi
  Wow, I say that a lot in this forum!

• Bilbo's POV - Blue Wizard
  At the same time that we have been expanding the point of view of Frodo and the other hobbits to see that they are a part of a wider world, Bilbo in many ways represents here the "old" view of the Shire to the hobbits as the center of the universe. Notwithstanding his years in Rivendell and his extensive study of Elven lore, in his heart,Bilbo genuinely thinks that he is responsible for all this trouble over the ring, whatever else his intellect may tell him. And, so it must fall to him to fix it. He had every intention of going back to the Shire to fetch it, but Elrond would not hear of it. And, now he offers to take it up again, despite his superannuation. Gandalf gently reminds him that it is more than presumption to think that he is responsible, that the ring has passed to another, and that he has no further active part to play in the continuation of this saga.
• So you don't think the there's any "Ring Lust" left in him? - Nenya
  I certainly don't disagree with anything you said, but I think you are making Bilbo out to be far too untouched by his experience with the One Ring. Granted, he was the only person in the history of the Ring to give it up voluntarily. But I have to believe that, having borne the Ring himself for so many years, he has to be feeling at least a minor fraction of that same call that Gollum feels. It would be hard to believe that at least part of his volunteering to be Ringbearer ties into the fact that it would once again bring him into possession of the One Ring.
• Most certainly, - Blue Wizard
  but others have already expounded on that in earlier posts, with which I agree.
• Several things are at work here - Idril Celebrindal
  Bilbo makes the offer to carry the Ring to Mordor for several reasons:

• Excellent points, Idril - Malbeth
  Especially the idea of forcing the Council to reach a decision. I hadn't considered that before, but it sounds reasonable.
• Especially since the Council was standing between a Hobbit and his lunch! - Nenya
• Book II, Chapter 2, and "The Council of Elrond": Gandalf the Oblivious? - Nenya
  Gandalf apparently missed many signals that Saruman had turned traitor in his heart. The strongly guarded gate at Isengard; the ring Saruman wore on his finger at their meeting; Gandalf's failure to immediately note that Saruman was not garbed in white, but instead dressed in a robe of many colors; the dark smoke the "hung and wrapped itself about the side of Orthanc." Why was Gandalf apparently blind to these signs that Saruman was himself entrapped by lust for the ring?
• Two guys looked out from prison bars... - HeavyFurball
  One saw mud and one saw stars..I think that may be a bit of the case here.

• He had his mind on other things - Kimi
  Oh, that sounds feeble, doesn't it?

• Gandalf was not aware that Saruman had used a palantir and been subverted by Sauron - Ron Austin
• Was it the Palantir that subverted Saruman? - Nenya
  I always read that as Saruman being subverted by his own studies into the lore of the Rings, and falling prey to the same delusions of Sauron that he could use the ring to control Middle Earth. Granted, he was subsequently further perverted by his discourse with Sauron, but he always intended to betray Sauron and keep the One Ring for himself. Whether or not he was strong enough to withstand Sauron and actually accomplish this is another matter.
• I think it was because.. - leo
  Gandalf still believed Saruman was loyal to the White Council, the fact that he, head of their order, would turn to evil did not yet occur to him. The question why is difficult, Gandalfs mind has rarely been opened to the readers, perhaps a few times for instance the council of Elrond or when Gandalf meets Aragorn in Fangorn.

• What are Gandalf's choices? - Blue Wizard
  He receives a message from Radagast to see Saruman at Orthanc, and there is no reason to suspect Radagast of any deceit in this. Gandalf has been harboring doubts about Saruman all along...but he is also desperately in need of information from Saruman as well. That's why he goes.

• Huh, interesting - I just used the word "hubris" above before reading your post here! - Nenya
  Only I used it in reference to Boromir.

• Gandalf's capture seems to easy to me, too - Malbeth
  I can't believe he wasn't at least suspicious. I guess Gandalf thought he might be able to talk Saruman into abandoning his evil path, but Saruman was much further gone than Gandalf realized. But it seems like Gandalf just let himself be taken without resistance, which seems strange. Apparently he'll put up a fight in the movie; if it's well done, I think it's a good idea.
• Relative power of Saruman and Gandalf - Idril Celebrindal
  The ease of Gandalf's capture by Saruman is intended to show the relative power of the two wizards at that point. Gandalf also did not suspect that Saruman was in league with Mordor and may not have realized that Saruman wanted the Ring for himself. Basically, he walked into a trap.

• How about "too easy to me" - Malbeth
• Book II, Chapter 2 "The Council of Elrond": " He that breaks a thing…" - Nenya
  It is in this chapter that one of the more highly quoted of Tolkien's aphorisms is said by Gandalf to Saruman: And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom. He refers to Saruman's prismatic breaking of the color white to it's component parts, and assuming the title "Saruman of many colors" (or "colours", if you prefer) but the saying could be applied to many other points of plot in LOTR. Feel free to volunteer any examples you can think of.
• We were speaking earlier - Blue Wizard
  about Gandalf musing over Frodo's fate, and saying that he may become like a glass filled with clear light for those that can see it. We had passed over that thread when I recalled this passage. And it seems to me that while it may be difficult, looking at Frodo alone, to express how Gandalf's striking imagery is fulfilled, that it is easier to see it in contrast to Saruman - His statement "white light can be broken" and Gandalf's retort , "in which case it is no longer white" stands in stark and immediate contrast to his assessment of Frodo in just the chapter before.
• Good observation, BW. - HeavyFurball
• Book II, Chapter 2 "The Council of Elrond": The Nazgűl Are Abroad - Nenya
  When Radagast the Brown reports his news that the Nazgűl are abroad, he reports that they are asking for a country called "Shire". Yet in The Hobbit, Bilbo only identifies himself to Gollum with "I am Mr. Bilbo Baggins. I have lost the dwarves and I have lost the wizard, and I don't know where I am." Sauron must have gotten "Shire" from Gollum, yet Gollum never got that information directly from Bilbo. Any ideas how/when he might have gotten that information indirectly?
• That's very interesting, Nenya. In the BBC audio, which I often speak of,... - Patty
  at the beginning Gollum is being tortured by Nazgul and questioned about Bilbo, and he says..."came from the Shire, didn't he precious? But we don't know where that is do we precious?" I guess I thought that we were supposed to think more conversation had taken place under the Misty Mountains between Bilbo and Gollum but not every word had been reported. But now, since everyone is saying Gollum found out in Dale, I guess this torture was supposed to have taken place AFTER he had been to Dale and we heard all of the riddle conversation.
• After the events of the Hobbit ... - Ron Austin
  And especially after the Battle of Five Armies Bilbo was no longer an obscure hobbit. Bilbo was known as a friend to Dwarfs and Elves which would make him noticable to many.
• Gollum learned of The Shire in Dale - Malbeth
  According to Gandalf in The Shadow of the Past, Gollum left the Misty Mountains after losing the ring, searching for Baggins. He made his way across Mirkwood all the way to Dale, where he heard talk of Bilbo and that he had gone back to The Shire.
• yup. In Dale and Erebor.. - leo
  Gollum heard the names Baggins and Shire, he then went on his way to 'Shire', but was drawn to Mordor on his wayv there. Gollum didn't know were the Shire was, so he could not tell Sauron this. The only names Sauron had were Shire and Baggins, the same names the Nazgul asked Saruman at his gates.
• Nosing around. - Eledhwen
  Saruman and Radagast had also heard of the Shire - Gollum could have spoken to Saruman's servants who had heard of it ...
• Except .... - Nenya
  That doesn't explain how Gollum managed to put "Bilbo" and "Shire" together. While Radagast may well have heard of the Shire, he probably didn't know Bilbo by name. Saruman only became interested in the Shire *after* he learned of its connection with the Ring. So the question remains how Gollum would have learned that information.
• Connections.. - Iolath
  Ah, but remember that by this time Saruman was well and truly trapped by Sauron through the Palantir. Saruman was acquainted with the Shire=hobbits; Sauron trapped Gollum who knew Baggins=Shire (from nosing around Dale), thus Sauron knew Baggins=Shire=hobbits.
• Book II, Chapter 2 "The Council of Elrond": Comic Relief? - Nenya
  I recently read an on-line summary of LOTR. It states that:
  Gandalf and Aragorn agree to go with the four Hobbits, as does Glorfindel, a descendant of the ancient ruler Ar-Pharazon, and Boromir, from the Royal House of Gondor; also joining them are an Elf and a Dwarf who don't really do much in the story but are there for comic relief. Together Gandalf and his nine companions - the "Fellowship of the Ring", as they call themselves - set out for the dark land of Mordor. (URL provided in this post)

• Filling in some blanks on my own... - HeavyFurball
  Just as a way to rationalize things, no evidence to support any of it, i.e. the facts and opinions presented herein do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Professor Tolkien...

• There seem to be two different issues here. - Inferno
  First, do Gimli and Legolas have low-key or comic roles in the Fellowship? Second, is this setup by their role in the council?

• There's a kernel of truth in the parody - Blue Wizard
  What function do Gimli and Legolas serve in the book. At some times, you wonder if they should be insulted like some of the hobbits at Bilbo's party when informed that their number was chosen to correspond to the sum of Bilbo's and Frodo's ages - Elrond wants nine members to correspond to the nine riders, and he wants a representative from the elves and dwarves. And, in some ways, they seem to be nothing but token members, chosen to fill out a pre-determined number of places. I think that fleshing out Gimli and Legolas as characters is one of the principal shortcomings of LOTR, and that Tolkien leaves too much unsaid for us to understand what character development there is. We do not understand their motivations at all. In the Council of Elrond, they are not much more than wallpaper - characters like some of the elves in this and the preceding chapter who have a line or two, and then disappear for the rest of the narrative.
  
  
• Well, as Tolkien himself said... - Patty
  the book is too short! Possibly one of the things he would have done, if he'd made it more lengthy is to flesh out their characters more.
  But I still don't have an answer as to why Legolas was chosen instead of Glorfindel or some other of Elrond's household. Was it because he was a Prince (in position) even if not one of the Firstborn like Glorfindel, and it was considered an honor to go? A dangereous honor but an honor nonetheless. Legolas's personality does lend itself more to eventually developing a tie to Gimli more than Glorfindel's (the little we see of either of them). And Gloin couldn't eventually become a friend of Legolas because he still had too much of a chip on his shoulder from having been imprisoned by the elves.
• Comparative youth, I think. - Kimi
  Legolas is a Sindarin Elf, and seems comparatively young as elves go. Elves like Glorfindel (assuming he's the elf of Gondolin of the same name) fought their great battles long ago, and are no longer willing to take such an active role. And Glóin is too old (and possibly too fond of comfort) for such an uncomfortable journey.

• this must have been written for.. - leo
  students who do not want to read LOTR but need a summary, but maybe PJ read it and thought Glorfindel was Arwen etc. etc.:)

• About that chapter summary - Malbeth
  Don't be too hard on the writer - it's from a site called the Tolkien Sarcasm Page, so he's trying to be funny; the factual errors are intentional. As for Legolas in this chapter, he does seem to be nothing more than a messenger in this chapter. As members of the Fellowship, I think their roles in LOTR are primarily as examples of their races.

• It's an awful summary. - Eledhwen
  Factually it's all over the place: Boromir is not of the Royal House of Gondor, but of the Ruling Stewards - although linked by blood distantly it's not the same thing! And Glorfindel isn't descended from Ar-Pharazon because Ar-Pharazon was Man and Glorfindel is Elf! And I disagree with the comic relief statement too. Gimli and Legolas go to represent their kindred, and each has a personal reason; Legolas' people are under attack from Sauron, and also played a part in holding and losing Gollum, and Gimli also has business with Sauron to settle re the Dwarven Rings. During the story they play several important roles - mostly in fighting, but where would all those Rohirric soldiers have been without Gimli in the Caves of Aglarond? Ecetera, ecetera. Whoever wrote that was extremely narrow-minded!
• i agree - Maggot
  with your analysis of the above. It's not just how much each member of the Fellowship accomplishes that is the gauge of their significance or value. After all, how much really does Pippin accomplish? Yet, he is hardly unnecessary to the story Tolkien is telling. Tolkien did not seem to simply insert space filling characters. Of all the memebers of the party, Gimli most touches Galadriel's heart. And next only to and occaisionally before Aragorn, Legolas keeps up the hope and determination of the members as they make more and more perilous parts of the journey.
• However - Emre
  
  Of all the Fellowship, Legolas and Gimli accomplish the least. Even Boromir at least made a grab for the Ring and died. Shades of fading?

• Book II, Chapter 2 "The Council of Elrond": Gollum's Escape - Nenya
  Gollum was apparently permitted to leave Mordor after spilling his guts to Sauron about the Ring on what Aragorn muses was some "evil errand". Gollum's subsequent liberation from his captivity in Mirkwood by what were probably orcs from Mordor seems to substantiate that musing. What further purpose did Sauron suppose Gollum could have for him? Gollum's mere existence would have been a threat to Sauron, since any information he provided to Sauron could easily be provided to Sauron's enemies. Wouldn't it have been more logical to incarcerate Gollum, or kill him outright once all the information had been extracted from him?
• From "Unfinished Tales" - Kimi
  "The Hunt for the Ring":

• In addition - Blue Wizard
  it is clear later that whatever happened to Gollum in Mordor, including being questioned by Sauron, was a horrific experience. The line IIRC "There are only nine fingers on his black hand but they are enough" is a masterful bit of understatement. Sauron is justifiably convinced that, while Gollum may have his own agenda if let free, Gollum will never defy him if set free. Moreover, he knows with certainty that, even if Gollum were to regain possession of the Ring, he is incapable of using in an any manner that would effectively challenge Sauron. This makes him a pretty safe ambassador of mischief.
• Sauron knew, or suspected.. - leo
  that the ring attracted Gollum, so in the end Gollum would always find it, as he did. By freeing Gollum from Mirkwood Sauron hoped that Gollum would go out and lead him to the ring, so Sauron's men (orcs or perhaps a nazgul) could take it. However Gollum escaped them as well, and hid in Moria.
• I agree, Eledhwen - Malbeth
  Gollum on his own, searching for the ring as Sauron knows he will, is a more effective spy than any of Sauron's servants. Black Riders aren't very secretive, and Sauron won't trust any of his other servants to bring the ring back to him.
• Why would Sauron trust Gollum to bring the ring back to him? - Nenya
  He's proved himself a stealthy liar and cheat who manages to successfully to elude The Lidless Eye. Hardly a trustworthy ally. And although hindsight is 20/20, not even a particularly useful tool. Sauron must have realized that Gandalf knew of Gollum's existence; that in and of itself seems like it should have made Gollum a greater liability than an asset.
• I wasn't very clear - Malbeth
  What I meant to say was that Sauron wouldn't trust any of his servants with the ring other than the Nazgul. I think he intended to keep a close watch on Gollum, hoping to grab him if he managed to find the ring. It's true, though, that might be a tough plan to implement; the little sneak was hard to catch, as Aragorn and Gandalf learned.
• Gollum would have had no choice. - septembrist
  Sauron was confident, with good reason, that if Gollum obtained the Ring, he would easily become his thrall. Gollum would have the Ring but his will is no match for Sauron's.
• I agree. Also... - HeavyFurball
  ...where would Gollum hide? With Sauron awakened, the Ring would constantly be trying to give gollum the slip. That's what prompted it to slip out of his hands and into Bilbo's in the first place. And the Nine are still drawn to the Ring. Gollum may be clever, but he is in no way equipped to fend off the Nazgul, should they find him. Gandalf and Aragorn, on the other hand, can give them some problems.

• The Ring. - Eledhwen
  Sauron knew that Gollum would go off to find the Ring, and that he could do so much more subtly and secretly than one of Sauron's more obvious servants. He would also have realised that if Gollum succeeded in finding the Ring, he would put it on and use it, thus making its presence known to its maker - Sauron would then have sent the Nazgul to Gollum to seize the Ring - Gollum would not have been strong enough to resist much, even with the Ring.
• question - Maggot
  Would the ring be willing to be found by Gollum? It had passed from him two bearers ago. He wants it devouringly, but it long ago "used him up" and seemingly 'knows' it can get no closer to it's Maker through such a carrier.
• I think of the ring as being sentient but only to a small.. - Patty
  extent can it control things. In ways such as changing its size, or as in the case of Isildur retaining its heat so the owner would be burned and ever after hesitant to use it again. But to say would it be willing to let Gollum find it, I think would be beyond its control, IMHO.
• Book II, Chapter 2, The Council of Elrond: Saruman and the White Council - Malbeth
  When Saruman insisted to the White Council that the One Ring was lost forever, how much did he already know? Did he know the Ring still existed, or did he just hope?
• I think that given his study of ring-lore - Kimi
  he was as sure as he could be that the Ring still existed, without knowing it for a fact. The weight of logic (as well as his own hopes) would have led him to believe that it still existed.
• Something in the Silmarillion on just that, Kimi.. - HeavyFurball
  Right at the very end, it gives us our most in depth look at the meetings of the white council, and it says

• I think Saruman knew before anyone. - HeavyFurball
  I believe Saruman knew it existed all along. One may argue that the Istari knew this when they were sent, but even if they did not, even if the fact that Sauron could not be destroyed until the Ring is destroyed were no wholly known, Saruman would have been in a better position to deduce this than any in the council, being it's authority on Rings of Power. And by the time the White council is formed, in TA 2463 (timeline), the Nazgul have been active in Middle Earth for about 1300 years. Saruman should have known the the Nazgul's appearance is just a harbringer of the return of Sauron, which cannot happen if the Ring no longer exists.

• I would think that Sauron was probably aware that Isuldur cut off the ring with Narsil - Ron Austin
• That depends... - HeavyFurball
  ...on what state Sauron's "spirit" for lack of a better term was.

• I think that Gandalf exists in both planes , like Glorfindal ... - Ron Austin
  When he died the part of him went into the west to receive special instruction from the valor and the permission to use his power at a higher level than before.
• What did Saruman know, and when did he know it? - Blue Wizard
  I don't think that there is any question that Saruman knew that the Ring was not destroyed. He must have read the same scroll that Gandalf read in Gondor, and thus knew that Isildur had taken the ring rather than destroying it. And he obviously knew the story of how Isildur was killed and the ring lost in the Anduin. From his study of the Rings of Power, it would have been obvious to him that the Ring could not have been destroyed.

• Saruman's hopes - Maggot
  Also thought Saruman with his vast assets in references and ringlore and long-cultivated ambition, knew and hoped a great deal more about the one ring than anyone else in Middle Earth and even for a time more than Sauron himself. At least until Saruon gets brought up to speed by catching Gollum.
  Gollum's story seems to be the missing piece of the puzzle that fills in everything for both Gandalf and Sauron, and leaves Saruman a few steps behind.
  I was wondering how long it took before Saruman became subordinated by Sauron through the palantir and how that would have fit into the time line mentioned above. He certainly knew who was really living in Dol Goldur way before anyone else. Was he then already in cahoots with the Dark Lord? or only serving his own educated guesses?
• I think he hoped.. - leo
  that it still existed, because there would no way he could have known unless he had it himself.

• I don't know how he could have *known*. - Nenya
  Unless he "knew" from the surety that the One Ring could not be destroyed except under very exacting situations. My feeling is that he was just making a best guess - it disappeared, Sauron had't lost any real power (as he did upon the destruction of the Ring at the end of LOTR), and the Ring had a way of looking out for itself. Therefore, it was a safe guess that the Ring still existed, and would eventually find a way to get itself out and abroad sooner or later.
• Book II, Chapter 2, The Council of Elrond: Ancient History - Malbeth
  How did Tolkien indicate to the reader that the events told by Elrond of the making of the rings and the Last Alliance were ancient history, thousands of years ago?
• We've had earlier hints of this history - Blue Wizard
  Starting with Gandalf in "Shadow of the Past", as well as in the songs which Gildor, and Aragorn and Bilbo have sung. Even Tom Bombadil's talk about a vast sweep of history have given us a sense that this story is rooted in the ancient past. And, both Boromir's description of Minas Tirith, and Aragorn's revelation about the role of the Dunedain of the North give us the sense that many, many generations of men have passed. But, as noted below, Frodo's startled reaction to Elrond's story drives home the vast amount of time that is involved here.
• One way - Daisy Took
  Frodo's shock that Elrond had been an eyewitness to the Last Alliance.

• Book II, Chapter 2, The Council of Elrond: Nazgűl - Malbeth
  Boromir describes how Gondor was defeated at Osgiliath due to the unexpected appearance of a Nazgűl:
  "A power was there that we have not felt before. Some said that it could be seen, like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon. Wherever he came a madness filled our foes, but fear fell on our boldest, so that horse and man gave way and fled."
  This seems much more powerful than the Black Riders as we have seen them so far. Why?
  
  
• A couple additional comments. - Inferno
  The Nazgul are still, to some extent, human. Just as Bilbo or Frodo could affect the world, and be heard while wearing the Ring, the Nazgul still interact in the world of men.

• Crossing the Great River - Idril Celebrindal
  The Nazgul disliked running water, yet they needed to cross the great riven Anduin to search for the Ring in Eriador. The only bridge left was the one at Osgiliath. To cross it, they needed to drive away the forces of Gondor. To accomplish this as swiftly as possible, the Witch King and the other Nazgul (with Sauron's backing) revealed their full power and routed the terrified Gondorians off the bridge. The Nazgul then crossed it and began their search for the Ring.

• In addition to the excellent points made below - Blue Wizard
  It would seem that the Nazgul have a range of capabilities that they use as necessary or appropriate to the situation.

• Yes, just imagine... - HeavyFurball
  ...how hard it is for the Witch-King to make friends. Anytime any of the dark servants are doing anything fun, they have to have a conspiracy of silence to make sure he doesn't show up and spoil it.

• Interesting point - HeavyFurball
  Personally I can think of several factors that could contribute to this, and I favor a combination of some or all of them being the explanation.

• Not just closeness to Mordor . . . - Annael
  At Osgiliath, the Witch King is just a few leagues downhill from his own seat of power, Minas Morgul. We know from Frodo's journey through that valley that the whole area was filled with power.
• Now that I think of it, this is another recurring theme in LOTR. - Annael
  The power of place. People seem more able to call on their powers or abilities when they are on their home ground. We see this most strongly with Elrond, Galadriel, Tom Bombadil, and Saruman. Aragorn's ability to heal seems much greater in Minas Tirith than out in the wild. And the hobbits - except Frodo, but we're always saying "except Frodo" - only come into the fullness of their own abilities once they're back in the Shire.
• Good point... - HeavyFurball
  Though in a way, Frodo did come into his own back in the Shire, as a leader. As a voice for temperance. Frodo was never a warrior, but he showed his greatness when he forgave Saruman. I think there is even a mention of Saruman looking at him in awe and new found respect.

• Interesting thought. - Inferno
  Especially seeing that the one Place more than any other that would seem to have the greatest power-- Valinor-- is continually refuted as having any inherent ability to grant immortality. The Undying Lands don't prevent death. They are called that simply because the Elves and the Ainur live there.

• I think that Valinor - Kimi
  does grant power; or rather great knowledge and gifts. The Elves who dwelt in Valinor are greater than those who never went there.

• and a further thought on Valinor... - HeavyFurball
  While it doesn't seem to exhibit a lot of overt power, the most important moves in the war against Sauron were all made from there. It is the seat of power, if nothing else.
• Good point! - Eledhwen
  I think too that distance has a lot to do with it. And in addition there's a different viewpoint here, and Boromir's language is far more descriptive than that of the simpler hobbits.
• Book II, Chapter 2, The Council of Elrond: The Might of Elrond - Malbeth
  Boromir said: "The might of Elrond is in wisdom not in weapons, it is said."
  But Elrond must have been a mighty warrior an age earlier, when he was with Gil-galad, Elendil, Isildur, and Círdan on the slopes of Orodruin in the final battle against Sauron. Why does he seem so different now?
• Elrond and the fading of the Elves - Idril Celebrindal
  Elrond's transformation from warrior to healer and loremaster can also be considered as part of the fading of the Elves. No longer does he play an active, martial role as the Elves did in their earliest years in Middle-earth. Instead, his job is preservation -- a more passive and inward-looking role that is shared by the other Elven realms ruled by the Noldor.
• Vilya - Blue Wizard
  For some 3000 years, Elrond has held and wielded Vilya, the Ring of Air. It's powers are not described with any specificity, but, like each of the Three, its powers are those of preservation against stain or decay, rather than conquest. With it, he maintains Rivendell as a refuge and has become, as Boromir describes him, the greatest loremaster in Middle Earth. Even Gandalf defers to Elrond's superior knowledge of lore, powers of healing, and gift of foresight. I think that we may take these to be, at least in part, a manifestation of the power of the Vilya, and to these ends he has directed all his energy, will and purpose. The arts of war are no longer of great interest to him.

• I like that idea. Vilya was a catalyst for his change. - Kimi
• Seems perfectly logical. Good reasoning. - HeavyFurball
• Agree about Vilya - Malbeth
  That's what I thought, too. I got the idea somewhere that one of Vilya's powers was healing, although I can't find the source anywhere. Does this sound familiar to you, or did I imagine this healing thing? Anyway, if that's true, being a warrior, inflicting wounds and death, would be somewhat incompatible with the influence of the ring.
• This point has been made before here . . . - Annael
  Some theorized that Elrond could heal Frodo while Glorfindel couldn't because Glorfindel was a warrior, and every time an Elf killed it diminished his ability to heal. Elrond chose to become a healer instead so his power in that arena was not diminished. I don't think that his presence at the Last Alliance meant he was a great warrior. He was Gil-Galad's standard bearer.
• Sadness? - HeavyFurball
  Elrond has seen many years since then. Perhaps he is tired of war, and death. Perhaps he rejected warfare for the study of lore. His family has suffered for the War against the shadow. His wife was kidnapped and tormented by Orcs, he has sons flying in and out of danger in a constant struggle to avenge said torment, and how many friends has Elrond lost over the years fighting?

• I agree - Hengist
  I think elrond would be tired with war and battle. Throughout his long life he has seen death and destruction, he has seen empires grow and fall, his friends that he has known for thousands of years suddenly die in battle - he has looked around the gladden fields and seen the destruction. Yes i believe he would have been sick of war and would then have resorted to finding ways of hopefully ending war and destroying the enemy once and for all, hence all his study. After all, the combined might of the last alliance really accomplished very little- yes it stopped sauron and removed his power for a while, but ultimatley the shadow returned - all that death and destruction - apparently for nothing.
• And age? - Eledhwen
  Everyone passes through stages in their lives. Elrond did his military service on the Gladden Fields, and now he's passed into teaching and learning. Natural progression, but for him, each stage lasts a little longer than normal.
• Book II, Chapter 2, The Council of Elrond: Faramir and Boromir's Dream - Malbeth
  Were the dreams of Faramir and Boromir foresight, or a message sent by someone?
• I'm sure they were a message. - Steve D
• I agree with Eledhwen - Blue Wizard
  It's a message from the West. It is a part of the summons that brought the various parties to the Council, even though Elrond did not send a message.
• Yes, I'm with you and Eledhwen, Blue. - Kimi
  I hadn't seen it that way before, but I agree, Blue; each of the people at the Council were "summoned" in some way, and the dream was the summons for Boromir. I suppose that, because the people of Gondor barely knew which direction Rivendell was in, they needed a more dramatic summons than Dain or Thranduil.
• I tend to think... - Eomund's Daughter
  ...that the dreams were messages sent by someone; specifically, the Valar, or one Vala in particular--Ulmo. After all, it was said that he kept those of Middle-Earth most in his thoughts...and weren't the brothers Boromir and Faramir near the River when the dreams came to them? (Or at least, when Faramir's came initially to him?) (If memory serves me correctly, that is....)

• Ulmo does seem a likely candidate - Malbeth
  He was always the most likely of the Valar to intervene on the behalf of elves and men.
• IMHO ... - Eledhwen
  A message from out West, an incentive for Gondor to get involved in the Ringquest, as was fated. The Valar couldn't get involved directly, but I bet they nudged things along in their own ways.
• I agree...and have often wondered - Binky
  how different the story would have been if Faramir had made the journey and have travelled with the fellowship? It seems to me as though Faramir was the first choice to go to Rivendell while Boromir was to stay behind to fight for Gonder...but Boromir being strong and full or pride took the journey on himself...and Faramir, who was strong and brave ...but not in the same class as his brother was left behind to fight...did they screw up ...or did things play out as they should have????

• What if Faramir? - Iolath
  Frodo and Sam HAD to go alone and it was the actions of Boromir that enabled Frodo to finally leave; otherwise the whole Fellowship would have been waylaid by the orcs and killed all but the hobbits who would have all been dragged right to Saruman.
• My scenario. - septembrist
  If Faramir had replaced Boromir in the Fellowship, there would have been no incident that would have driven Frodo away. Aragorn would have appointed one or two of the Fellowship to go with Frodo and Sam, perhaps Aragorn himself or Faramir. Imagine Aragorn or Faramir meeting up with Boromir in Ithilien! Or Aragorn/Faramir meeting an untimely end at Cirith Ungol!
• Another what if - Malbeth
  What if Frodo and Sam still went east alone, and were found in Ithilien by Boromir? That's a little scary!
• Boromir speculations .... - Idril Celebrindal
  Assuming that Faramir had gone on the Quest AND been killed in Boromir's place (two big "what-ifs"), I don't think Frodo and Sam would have met Boromir in Ithilien. Boromir was the leader of the entire force of Minas Tirith and would have remained in close contact with the city. He wouldn't have personally gone scouting in Ithilien; that's what subordinates and younger brothers are for.

• How's this? - Blue Wizard
  Faramir goes to Rivendell instead of Boromir.

• A creditable scenario! - Idril Celebrindal
  The beauty of it is that Gollum could still show up at the Sammath Naur to bite Frodo's finger off. (Gimli would probably push him into the Cracks of Doom immediately afterwards.)

• Book II, Chapter 2, The Council of Elrond: Sauron's Strategy - Malbeth
  Glóin tells that some of the people of Dáin began to desire to return to Khazad-dűm.
  "A shadow of disquiet fell upon our people. Whence it came we did not at first perceive."
  What did Glóin mean? Did these whispers come from agents of Sauron? Why would Sauron or anyone else wish for the dwarves to return to Khazad-dűm?
• I agree with everyone's wise words - Kimi
  re pride and greed leading to evil for the dwarves. Life at Erebor was pretty good, but they wanted more.

• Tangential answer . . . - Annael
  I think this is one of Tolkien's main themes: that greed of any kind brings about evil. Greed for gold or riches is no worse than greed for power. The Ring has the most power over those who want to have power over things or other people. The humble hobbits are the hardest to corrupt. In the end, those who have the most power in Middle-earth are those who did not actively seek it for themselves: Aragorn, Faramir, Eomer.
• Second thoughts ... - hollowTree
  In the past, I had not considered the possibility of Sauron's influence on Balin. My thoughts were much the same as those expressed by Eledhwen.

• The Silmarillion - Malbeth
  I think that's what brought this question to my mind. I've just been re-reading the Silmarillion myself, and this reminded me of what Morgoth did so many times; just sowing some seeds of dissatisfaction, and waiting to harvest the crop.
• Good point! Yes, I think Tolkien does... - Patty
  use the theme of people's own natures being undermined by evil influences often in the Sil, and it would not be difficult to imagine that the Dwarves simply wanted more of a good thing and were encouraged in that dissatisfaction, as were the people of Numenor wanting more of a good, long life by some outside influence with agendas of its own--Sauron, or Saruman (who was interested in all the rings, and would not have been above letting someone else find this dwarven ring and then sending force to steal it, for example.)
• I'm not sure it is Sauron. - Eledhwen
  That return to Moria was probably fated. It came at the peak of Dain's power Under the Mountain, and I think it was natural that a dwarf such as Balin would want power of his own. I imagine Balin as very much like Boromir - proud, steadfast, noble, but quite easily corrupted, and the prospect of winning Moria back to strengthen both Dain's power and his own was probably a great temptation. The fact it happened at the same time as Sauron was looking for the Ring is, do I dare to say it, possibly coincidence, if you believe that coincidence exists.
• I suppose that we could speculate - Blue Wizard
  that Sauron's influence was at work on Balin he were to have found, among Smaug's treasure-hoard, one of the lesser rings or even, unaccounted for, one of the seven. The seven were all destroyed by dragon-fire or captured, Gandalf says, but maybe one survived under the Mountain. But, I think that Gandalf is right. The seven rings of the dwarves correspond to the seven houses, and Balin is of the house of Durin, as was Thrain, from whom the last of the rings was taken. But, maybe he found one of the lesser rings, and it had the effect on his, as do the rings on dwarves, of inflaming his greed - inspiring him to try to return to Moria, the sole place where mithril can be found.

• The influence of the Dwarven ring ... - Ron Austin
  Gandalf states that the ring Thrain had was taken from him by the Necromancer .
  We know that the effect of the rings on Dwarf nature is to exagerate their greed and secretivness. Even though Sauron did not have the one ring to focus the powers of the lesser rings maybe he could still influence the Dwarves if he tried.
• Book II, Chapter 2, The Council of Elrond: "By chance it may seem" - Malbeth
  Elrond said: "That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world."

• Intriguing thought - Hengist
  goes with the point below

• Gandalf relates - Blue Wizard
  about how it was that he met Thorin in a "chance meeting" and conceived the plan to enlist Bilbo as a burglar, leading not only to the destruction of Smaug, but also the finding of the Ring.

• I agree, Blue - Kimi
  Predestination leads us into some muddy waters, especially when we attempt to reconcile it with free will.

• Paths of the Dead - Iolath
  1) It was spoken by Malbeth the Seer, and reiterated by Arwen, that Aragorn, as Heir, would take the Paths of the Dead.
  2) The death of the Lord of the Ringwraiths was not by the hand of man.
• "Bilbo was - Kimi
  meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it."

• Book II, Chapter 2, The Council of Elrond: "Proud and stern of glance" - Malbeth
  "And seated a little apart was a tall man with a fair and noble face, dark-haired and grey-eyed, proud and stern of glance."
  This is how Boromir is introduced to us. What evidence of Boromir's pride is presented to us in this chapter?
  
  
• Bio of Boromir. - Inferno
  We know very little about him in this chapter. Again, we are limited by what Frodo knows. Presumably, he's never even heard of Gondor. Since the hobbits are really the only ones who are unlearned about Gondor, little is offered. We know that it is a kingdom to the South that has fought long against Sauron. We don't know that it is a remnant of fallen Numenor.

• Boromir and Faramir - Kimi
  are examples of the theme of blood "running true" that comes up so much in Tolkien's works. I like your suggestion that Boromir is an echo (a pale one, as Eledhwen says) of the heroes of old.

• Excellent summary, Inferno. - Eledhwen
  I like the point about Boromir's similarity to Túrin, and would add that he is but a faded reflection of Túrin - great, but not so great, nor so tragic.
• Good points, both of you! - Idril Celebrindal
  I like your comparisons of Boromir to Turin. They share much the same outlook, although Turin is by far the more tragic and destructive figure.

• there is a saying - Hengist
  "pride becomes before a fall" and here we see boromirs pride in his city and in himself. In some ways the reader is given an idea that this pride my cause problems, which of course it does but then we also get the set up for boromirs redemption, which i think is a wonderful piece of storytelling.
• We have a greater measure of this - Blue Wizard
  in two later chapters, when Pippin is questioned by Denethor and in "Window on the West". Knowing Boromir better than we do, both Denethor and Faramir would expect that he would be the one to lead the Fellowship South, and that Isildur's Bane (whatever it might be), if a thing that would give advantage in war, is something that Boromir would greatly desire, even if it bore great risk and peril. Though Boromor acquiesces in the judgment and decision of the Council, it is a measure of his pride that, knowing the nature of the ring and that it would over-master any who sought to wield it, he nevertheless would seek to use it against Sauron, believing perhaps that it could not master him.
• in additions to the ones named below... - leo
  I can recall a part where Boromir gets 'corrected' by as well Gandalf as Elrond, and allthough at the moment he agrees with them I think there is still something over him that says; let those wise man talk, but I have made up my mind and this won't chage it. I dont really know the word for it in Engish, but I guess you could call it stubborn, or even pride..
• Boromir's pride - Kimi
  Is both personal and on behalf of Gondor.

• And also ... - Eledhwen
  He belittles 'those who shelter behind us', saying that they give 'much praise but little help'. He doesn't stop to think that maybe they're unable to help. He doesn't need to give all the little details about danger, and indeed he might come across as braver had he not.
• In the way Boromir speaks of how Gondor, and by extension... - Patty

Lord of the Rings : Book 2, Chapter 3
The Ring Goes South
A Discussion Led by Annael

• Book 2, Chapter 3, Part 10: Aragorn and Moria - Annael
  Why does Aragorn fear Moria so much?

• Maybe . . . - Soothfast
  Maybe Aragorn had an inkling that whatever trouble the Fellowship was likely to meet in the mines of Moria, it would be of a magnitude that only Gandalf would be able to ward off, and only at the cost of his life in order to save the others. Maybe he knew something of Balrogs, and suspected that if a Balrog were to appear in Moria, it would zero in on Gandalf as a rival Maia. I wonder, too, if Aragorn hadn't perhaps gotten a gander at a palantir once before in his life and saw some visions of the future?
• Good question. - Nenya
  Why would Tolkien have made Aragorn to be the one to have a premonition regarding Gandalf in danger in Moria? Was it supposed to have represented an early manifestation of the "kingly" role that Aragorn gradually assumes throughout the trilogy, as he comes into his power as King?

• Maybe he did - Malbeth
  Perhaps Gandalf did foresee the possibility of his death in Moria; even if he didn't, he would take Aragorn's warning seriously. However, his own survival was not his paramount concern. The success of the ring-bearer's quest was, and if Moria was the best path, he would take his chances.
• Foresight - Kimi
  In the next chapter Aragorn warns Gandalf to beware Moria, and says that this is a personal warning for Gandalf. He seems to have a premonition on Gandalf's behalf, though without any details of what the danger in Moria is.

• Yes, fear for Gandalf. - septembrist
  Aragorn was leaning heavily on Gandalf's leadership and wisdom. Gandalf's loss would be a great blow to the Fellowship and the "cause".
  Aragorn is in a fog after Gandalf's loss and only snaps out of it after the Fellowship is broken.

• I agree - Blue Wizard
• didn't he already.. - leo
  went throught there before once?

• intuition - Ophelia
  I think Aragorn was afraid for Gandalf, but not because of foresight, perhaps because of his previous trip through Moria. Gandalf, on the other hand, seems to be perfectly aware of what might happen, indeed, it seems he almost wants to go into Moria.
• Book 2, Chapter 3, Part 9: Legolas - Annael
  Legolas is not troubled by the storm, even though he's lightly clad, and he can run on snow. What is it about Elves that makes this possible?
• Elves just know how to walk lightly - Soothfast
  You can stomp or you can float. It's all in the technique. Legolas, being an Elf, is lithe and agile, and moves lightly and swiftly over the snow such that no one place in the snow has a chance to collapse much under his weight before he's on to another place. I'm sure there's a bit of magic to it, too, but in Tolkien's world technique (or skill) seems to blend seamlessly into magic. When you've been around for a few thousand years to tend to pick up some tricks.
• It could be that elves have ... - hollowTree
  ... really large feet (the size of snowshoes). But, that is never mentioned anywhere that I can remember.

• maybe - Jester_rm
  the pointed areas of the ears give a deal of aerodynamic lift at speed? or maybe they have wings? =) Hey, it doesn't anywhere specifically state that they DON'T have wings, does it?

• Actually, Tolkien does say specifically - Blue Wizard
  that they don't. In the preface, he says that the notion of elves being like fairies with a butterfly's wings is entirely inappropriate - if elves had wings the more appropriate imagery would be the wings of a falcon. But, he hastens to add that they don't have wings of any kind.

• Willpower? - Idril Celebrindal
  To add to what hollowTree said, I remember reading that the Elves have more control over their bodies than other races. They can will themselves not to be sensitive to the temperature, for instance, although extremes of heat and cold will still affect them.
• Book 2, Chapter 3: Generic question. - Annael
  What's your favorite moment in this chapter?

• Also - - Annael
  When Elrond, Gimli, and Boromir trade homilies as the Fellowship leaves Rivendell. "But sworn word may strengthen quaking heart." "Or break it."
• "Bill swished his tail and said nothing." - GaladrielTX
  But seriously, my brand new favorite moment of this chapter comes in the same scene: "Aragorn sat with his head bowed to his knees; only Elrond knew fully what this hour meant to him." I'd never noticed this sentence much before, but this time it really brought home to me the crushing weight of what Aragorn must accomplish in order to win his kingdom and his queen.
• "A fair jaw-cracker dwarf language must be!" :) - Binky
• I like that one too - Blue Wizard
  For some reason, I like Gandalf's and Legolas being sarcastic to one-another in the midst of really quite dire peril after the storm on the Redhorn Pass:

• I think that Legolas-Gandalf - Kimi
  interaction is my favourite, too.

• Book 2, Chapter 3: Part 8: Caradhras the Cruel - Annael
  Old Man Willow, the Barrow-wight, Caradhras, the Balrog, Shelob . . . none are minions of Sauron, and yet sometimes they seem to do his work. To what extent do the forces of evil consciously cooperate in Middle-earth, do you think?
• Sauron and the One Ring - Idril Celebrindal
  Sauron delighted in the activity of evil things. Although he usually didn't control them, his growing influence in Middle-earth encouraged them to act. Any evil that they did generally (but not always) helped his cause.

• Interesting thought! - Annael
  Meaning, new to me. I can see it though. The Ring just sort of riles up all the evil in the area, you think?
• That's what I had in mind - Idril Celebrindal
  I think the Ring enables evil and may act as a conscious or unconscious influence on any evil beings in its general area. They may not even realize why they are attracted to the Ring.

• A couple other spots where this may have affect. - Inferno
  I'll rehash this again in part next week, but in the next chapter, there is the moment where Gandalf thinks to himself that of all the members of the company, the Watcher in the Water reached for Frodo first.

• Help me here... - HammerHead
  Shelob... wasn't Shelob a bit in league with Stinker? I recall Gollum bidding her do his dirty work with Frodo. If I'm correct (I may not be), I'd think Gollum would specifically ask the spider to attack Frodo in hopes that the Ring could be found by Gollum later.

• A few more ... - Idril Celebrindal
  - The orc chieftain in the Chamber of Mazarbul who specifically targets Frodo for an attack even though others were closer.

• Minas Morgul. - Annael
  The Witch King senses something is different in his valley. But maybe he's lulled a bit by the fact that it doesn't feel strange or unfamiliar. His valley is so filled with evil already, maybe all he senses is that the evil seems more intense. Which wouldn't worry him very much!

• Old Man Willow and Barrow-wights - Malbeth
  While I don't think they were directly controlled by Sauron, they could be influenced by him. In Unfinished Tales (I think) it says that they close proximity of the Nazgűl searching for Frodo awakened the evil things in the area, Old Man Willow and the wights, making them especially aware and malevolent. As for Caradhras, as Patty pointed out below, Gandalf at least suspected the Sauron controlled the storm.
• There seems to be a will at work... - Ugly Troll
  Perhaps Sauron plots a course of action the way a good general will study the lay of the land before committing his troops.
  The various evil elements are not actually under the direct control of a particular will, as far as what's explained in the story, but Sauronthe Nazgul or Gollum would 'use'them if they could.
• Yes. And Gandalf evidently thought so too, when he said..."his arm has grown long." - Patty
• I don't feel that Caradhras was in league with Sauron. - Daisy Took
  Up to this point, it seems that Sauron's servants were drawn to Frodo by the Ring and Frodo was either singled out to be attacked or felt an extra chill or something. Caradhras attacked the entire Fellowship. And Gimli seemed to think, if anything, the attack was revenge for the dwarves work in the mountains. I don't have the books here for the quotes, so I can't give you his words exactly, but that was the sense I got from reading it.
• Remember that the Misty Mountains - Blue Wizard
  were originally raised by Melkor as a defense against the Valar. One might consider that the malice in these mountains is the residue of his evil. They may not be consciously cooperating with Sauron, but at base they were created to serve evil and oppose good, and so they do.
• Ah, you get at what I'm wondering . . . - Annael
  How much of the present evil in ME is a legacy of Melkor/Morgoth? Sauron is, after all.

• I have some further thoughts - Blue Wizard
  In the case of Caradhras, I think that the link to Melkor is important, but there is also a similarity to what Kimi mentioned about the Huorns, as well - that it, perhaps an agenda of its own fueled by a hatred of beings that walk on two feet and despoil it.

• perhaps it is all a coincidence.. - leo
  but it seems to happen two ways; Frodo meeting Gildor and TB when they are in trouble, all the right ppl in the right place at the right time during the council of Elrond, the Fellowship running into Haldir at the borders of Lorien.

• Oops, sorry...I just posted essentially the same thing. I should read everyone's comments first. Let me just say... - Patty
  I agree.
• yeah, I have that problem too - leo
  but I dont have enough time to read all that you are writing:)
• It's hard to be sure - Kimi
  Aragorn's remark seems significant: "There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he."

• Book 2, Chapter 3: Part 7: Boromir - Annael
  This chapter is a bit short on character development, with one exception. We learn more about Boromir than at any other time. What do we learn?
• In this chapter, we see him - Blue Wizard
  for what he has justly gained renown in Minas Tirith - a great and valient leader of men. As noted below, he certainly defers to Gandalf's leadership; though Gandalf consults with Aragorn more often about their plans, as he is more familiar with the lands through which they travel. But, he is brave, thoughtful, resourceful, considerate of the least of his company, and strong to the point of amazing the others. In some ways, he is presented as a "bigger and better, new and improved" version of Aragorn - they are very, very similar and their kinship is evident.

• I think that the author - Kimi
  tried to give Boromir a fair deal. He's neither a cardboard-cutout hero, nor a two-dimensional villain. Boromir is one of the more morally complex characters in LOTR.

• That he has forethought-- when even Gandalf.. - Patty
  didn't come up with bringing along the faggots of wood, and suggesting their use when it was between life or death. He was a leader, too--it was he that implimented burrowing a snow passage by brute force.
• I agree - he showed leadership - Malbeth
  on the mountain. He was assertive when he needed to be, but still deferred to Gandalf's position as leader of the group. I'm sure Boromir was quite used to leadership, and it had to be hard not to be in authority, but he handled it well, at this point anyway. You really get a very positive impression of him in this chapter.
• Another thing: - Annael
  He seems to be the one most concerned with the hobbits' welfare. He argues for stopping on Caradhras because to go on "will be the death of the Halflings." Later on Pippin will recall his "lordly but kindly manner."
• So, you don't think this is part of his beginning fascination with the ring? - Patty
• If so, than only subconsciously I think - VLT
  For only after an encounter with Galadriel "he realized what he wanted all along - the enemy´s Ring". (Pardon my poor English an inaccurate quote I don´t have the book with me.)

• I agree. - Annael
  I think, as a good captain and the heir to the Stewardship, he was used to thinking about logistics and the needs of his people. I think he just naturally assessed the situation and saw the problem before anyone else. <
• Book 2, Chapter 3: Part 6: A shadow against the stars - Annael
  Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn all see or feel something high in the sky. A Nazgul? If so, is this an error on Tolkien's part, since later he has Grishnakh say that Sauron won't let the Nazgul cross Anduin yet?
• I think in a rough draft... - Bard
  Tolkien explained a bit more about it and said that it was a Nazgul.
• What could it be? - Blue Wizard
  I'm certainly of the opinion that it's a Nazgul, but that doesn't square with the statement that the Winged Nazgul aren't being allowed to cross the river yet - they're being saved for the war. So, I'm inclined to think that it's a mistake - either it really is a Nazgul and the statement is wrong; or the statement is supposed to be correct, and Tolkien just forgot to take out the passage in this chapter in editing.

• Ha! - Annael
  I had not considered that last possibility!
• Depends on whether you're a Watsonian or a Doylist - Idril Celebrindal
  For those who are unfamiliar with these terms, "Watsonian" and "Doylist" are derived from discussions of the Sherlock Holmes canon. Watsonians analyze the stories as if they were actually written by Dr. Watson -- that is, they look at the stories as representing a universe that actually exists. Doylists analyze the stories as products of the imagination of Arthur Conan Doyle -- that is, they look at the stories as purely creations of their author. Watsonians try to come up with explanations (often quite elaborate and convoluted) for inconsistencies in stories. Doylists generally just say that the author Had A Better Idea.

• Yes. - Eomund's Daughter
  ...it's a Nazgul. They (especiallly Frodo, who senses the coldness and experiences a sensation of chilled pain in his knife-wound) feel its presence, and it blocks off the light of the stars, etc. I think that, in fact, it doesn't cross the River...it falls on the other (Eastern) side, where the orcs are, not where the Fellowship is. Legolas, with the help of the Lorien-bow, did indeed make a mighty shot.
• Are you thinking of later, travelling down Anduin? - Malbeth
  At this point, the Fellowship is still on the west side of the Misty Mountains, way too far to see something on the east side of Anduin.
• Am I on crack or something? - Eomund's Daughter
• Book 2, Chapter 3, Part 5: Strange elves. - Annael
  In Hollin, Legolas says "But the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk."

• A late entry. - Inferno
  A couple of additional comments.

• well, I assume.. - leo
  since this is the land were Celebrimbor made the rings of power, that the ppl living there would be the remains of the Noldor. Legolas called them estranged from his own ppl, because his ppl would have moved out of Belriand years before the Noldor arrived in Middle Earth, or shortly after,either way, they did not have much contact among each other..
• Tolkien is somewhat ambiguous about this - Blue Wizard
  Clearly, this was a realm principally inhabited by the Noldor, and headed by Celembrimbor, who forged the Rings. As Malbeth said, they are of a different branch of the elven race than those of Mirkwood, and their interest in metalwork and mining - to say nothing of their friendship with the dwarves of Moria, would certainly seem strange.

• Noldor - Celebrimbor's people - Malbeth
  They were 'strange' to Legolas because they into mining, building, creation of rings and gems, etc. That seems very strange to a wood-elf.
• Book 2, Chapter 3: Part 4: On the trail. - Annael
  This one's just for fun. What do you think life was like for the Fellowship on this part of the journey? Did Sam do all the cooking? Did they hunt for food along the way or just eat what they were carrying? Did they stand watches during the day? What did they talk about?
• having hiked the Appalachin trail... - Binky
  Not the whole thing!! But I live very close to some pretty rough parts of it.

• On the road again. - septembrist
  I doubt there was much hunting or cooking. Hunting takes time and they did not wish to risk "the lighting of a fire".
  It is described as pretty cheerless fortnight so there was not much talking or merriment. The hobbits were no doubt talkative amongst themselves and with Aragorn.
  The Fellowship doesn't really bond until the failed ascent of Caradhras.
• Important question . . . - Sauron the Maia
  How did they go to the bathroom in those days? What sort of foliage was the preferred toilet paper? Did they all go anywhere they felt like around their encampments, or pick a particular spot? And if a particular spot, who chose it? Gandalf? Aragorn?
• I am of the purist camp on this issue - Blue Wizard
  If Tolkien didn't write it, it didn't happen. There is never any mention, anywhere in the Silmarillion, the Hobbit or LOTR of er, um,...elimination. Never. Hobbits eat six meals a day, not counting snacks. But, no mention of bathrooms, privies, or chamber pots in the Shire. Sam is late setting off from Bag End after saying goodbye to the beer kegs in the cellar, but never once needs to make a quick stop along the road. Six thousand mounted cavalry leave from Rohan and not one road apple.

• I think it's safe to assume that - Kimi
  holly was not the preferred foliage.

• I'm sure they shared the work - Kimi
  Though they may well have decided that, since Sam's the best cook, he'll do most of the cooking. Pippin and Merry, who seem to have still been living under their parents' roof, may have fairly basic cooking skills (I know that "all hobbits can cook", but it doesn't mean that all hobbits will cook). Gandalf would light the fires.

• Well Kimers, I still question how much food... - Patty
  they expected to find in the wild in the winter, but I shall let that pass, so glad am I to see you back!
• Thanks, Patty. - Kimi
  Tomorrow's my father-in-law's operation day, btw.

• When I read that Bill was the only beast of burden.. - Patty
  that 9 beings took while back in Bree they were concerned at getting only 1 for 5 beings I thought..that's kinda wierd. It's winter, and how much food are they going to be able to "find"? This seems disproportionate to me.
• They're better prepared - Kimi
  than the hobbits were for their journey. They probably have a lot of dried meats and fruits. They'll all be carrying heavy packs, though, and rations are probably fairly tight.
• Book 2, Chapter 3: Part 3: Narsil re-forged. - Annael
  I've always wondered this: why didn't the Dunadain have Narsil reforged a long time ago, instead of having the heir wander around with a broken sword, if they could have had the Elves remake it any time?
• it was predicted by someone.. - leo
  thatwhen the heir of Elendil would set out to reclaim his trone, that Narsil should be reforged, at least it was something like that, I dont have the books with me to look it up.
• He almost certainly had another weapon - Ugly Troll
  all that wandering alone across ME.
  And I guess since Anduril was the sword of the king, he would not need it reforged until he was ready to declare himself.

• Narsil / Anduril - Blue Wizard
  The really odd thing is Aragorn lugging Narsil around with him in the wild, instead of just leaving it in Rivendell. It occurs to me that maybe he did so only in the events related here. It is rather like a piece of ID; his passport photo. It is how he can identify himself to Frodo, who has never met him, and who is likely, based on appearances, to distrust him. And he shows it to Boromir at the Council, essentially to the same purpose. But, it is unimaginable, for example, to thing that, as Thorongil, he could carry a broken sword without it eliciting comment. So, I think that, most of the time, he left it in Rivendell for safe-keeping.

• You have to be quick around here. - hollowTree
  I was drafting some thoughts on this topic (regarding why Aragorn would carry Narsil with him) when you posted. You've hit my points right on the head, and have done a better job of it than I could have. So, let me just say that I agree with you and leave it at that.

• I've often wondered... - HammerHead
  ... why a ranger would roam relatively "helpless" with a damaged weapon. I've often thought Tolkien was trying to develop Aragorn as a master of arms, but never fully did so.
• Just a guess, but... - Eomund's Daughter
  ...they seem to place importance on whether the right time and person had come or not. The king's return had been spoken of/predicted, in verse or otherwise, (think Malbeth, etc.), and I expect that certain signs were anticipated in advance of his coming. In the same vein, the time had not yet come for Aragorn to renew his claim to the kingship...he was being tested, so to speak...and therefore he had not yet earned the use of the Reforged Sword, though the heir of it.

• I believe it was foretold... - Malbeth
  that Narsil would be re-forged when the One Ring resurfaced. I don't recall the source, but perhaps somebody can help with this. The Dunedain were smart enough to know it's best not to mess with fate in Middle-earth, so they waited.
• I believe it was Elrond who had foretold this. But I ... - Patty
  always have a problem with things being done just to fulfull a prophecy.
• Book 2, Chapter 3: Part 2: A strange land. - Annael
  Elladan and Elrohir travel the farthest of all the scouts, "passing down the Silverlode in a strange country," and will speak of their journey to no one but Elrond. This must be Lothlorien. What do you suppose Elrond needed to tell or ask Galadriel? What does this tell us about how well the bearers of the Three can communicate at a distance?
• I think that Elrond would send out other parties to confuse any lurkers around Rivendil - Ron Austin
  Also He alerts the people with the power to help the Ringbearer and Lorien would certainly be alerted. The Scouts sent to Lorien would be able to travel in a more forthright manner than the Ringbearer.
• for one I think.. - leo
  the sons of Elrond told Galadriel that a fellowship with nine persons would probably come her wau, and asked her to help them on their way, because their queste was important. The thing about the nine persons I get from the fact that when the fellowship meets Galadriel and Celeborn, Galadriel seems toknow that nine ppl set out from Rivendell, and that Gandalf hasn't passed the border of Lorien.
• But Elrond hadn't decided that when he sent out the scouts. - Annael
  He decided it after they came back. At least, that's when he announces who is going and has the argument with Gandalf about Merry and Pippin going along.
• He may have decided on the number earlier - Malbeth
  But anyway, doesn't it say he sent more messengers after the first ones came back?
• Yes, it does. - Kimi
  On the day that the members of the Fellowship are chosen, Elrond says "I will send out messages, such as I can contrive, to those whom I know in the wide world." This is after all the scouts have returned. It does seem reasonable that he sends fresh messages to Lorien.
• Or, Galadriel may have... - Blue Wizard
  sent Elladan and Elrohir back from Lorien with the message that there should be Nine members to the Fellowship. Maybe that's the one brilliant idea the Celeborn had - you know, that elusive thing we keep searching for in vain to justify in our own minds her characterization of him as being so wise.

• That's a very good point, Blue - Kimi
  I wonder just what message Galadriel did send back with her grand-sons. Perhaps some of Elrond's ideas, such as including representatives of all the Free Peoples, came from her. And Galadriel has always taken an interest in Aragorn; perhaps she reminded Elrond that it was time for Narsil to be re-forged, and said that Aragorn should be part of the Company.
• Of course he was wise. He married Her, didn't he?...she can always say something to make him look good! - Patty
• I'd guess Elrond sent them to tell that... - Patty
  the Ring was, in fact, in Rivendell and with Frodo the hobbit. I always got the impression that the rings could communicate with each other by opening up the hearts of the wearers to the others but not by exact words, unlike the palantir stones, so that if a specific thing needed to be told by words direct communication was still necessary. I don't remember seeing any where that the elves of Lothlorien had, for many thousands of years interacted with other peoples than the dwarves--possibly they didn't even know what hobbits where themselves for sure and Elrond was making all of this know to them also, and wanting her judgement of the wisdom of sending one into morder with the ring, because of course, it was already known that he would be ringbearer.
• Galadriel - Blue Wizard
  is clearly one of the members of the White Council. It was she who urged that Gandalf, not Saruman, be made the head of it. On reflection, it seems odd that neither she, nor an ambassador such as Cirdan sent, was present at the Council of Elrond. Was a summoning message, such as that which everyone else seemed to have received, not also sent to her? Or did she receive a message and disregard it? If we accept that the messages came from the Valar (Elrond insists that he did not send a message), is her estrangement from the Valar so deep that she is excluded? Or perhaps it is that her counsel in this matter is so well known to Elrond and Gandalf that her presence is not required.

• Regarding details of the Fellowship - Malbeth
  If I recall correctly, Elrond sent messengers out to various places just before the Fellowship left, and Lorien would certainly be one of those places. This is presumably how G & C knew how many were in the Fellowship, and that Gandalf was one of them.
• Communication - Iolath
  Perhaps the Bearers did not want Sauron to "overhear" their thought - just how much of the workings of the Three is Sauron privy to? The sons of ELrond were also in the neighborhood scouting, so they also filled in G and C aobut the company - remember the Fellowship was well known tho G and C when the Fellowship got to Lothlorien.
  
  
• The Council Meeting - Malbeth
  I suppose they were sent with a report of the council meeting, to fill her in on what was discussed and decided, and to get her opinions on how to proceed. Later, he sent more messengers reporting the exact makeup of the Fellowship. I guess this shows the Three Rings didn't give communication power to their bearers, but we already knew that. Gandalf couldn't 'call' Elrond for help when he was imprisoned in Orthanc or evading Black Riders north of Rivendell.
• Book 2, Chapter 3, The Ring Goes South: Part 1: Scouting - Annael
  Elrond sends out scouts in every direction to look for signs of the Black Riders or other spies. They find nothing. Why? What is Sauron doing or thinking during this time?

• What were his options? - HeavyFurball
  I think by the time the Ring set out, Sauron, whether the Nazgul had made it back to him or not must have known they were "unhorsed and unmasked". His other spies and eyes throughout the land would have told him. But what other options would he have had?

• Do we know how long... - Bard
  It would take the wraiths to get back to Mordor, I would say not long but quite a time, they are sprits afeter all not mortals. Once back in Mordor Sauron could have maybe felt uneasy that the ring was in Elven hands. he may have delayed sending them back out until he had thought about it. Other servants were slower and I've always assumed that Sauron had few if any servants in Eradior.
• like, I think, Gandalf said... - leo
  Saurons most important weapons (the Nazgul) were destroyed for a while, it would have taken them at least a few weeks to get back to Rivendell, by then the fellowship would have left. I think he didnt trust hisother armys enough to let them take the ring, because I think only the Nazgul were 'enslaved' enough to bring the ring to him instead of using it for themselves.

• I don't remember which person says this but... - Patty
  it goes something like...the might of Sauron always being less than what terror fears it is...
  Perhaps he really wasn't ready yet in terms of the arms he was planning to use against Gondor. And, as someone on this board says he probably was waiting to see what, if any power, arose out of Rivendell to challange him,if he knew the Ring was there.
• Sauron shifts his focus. - hollowTree
  Sauron surely knows that the Nazgul have failed and that the Ring has been delivered to Rivendell. In my opinion, Sauron now expects that the Elves will try to keep the Ring “safe” and out of his possession in Rivendell, or that some powerful individual will claim the Ring and attempt to use it to lead a army against him.

• That's not entirely accurate - Blue Wizard
  Elrond's scouts find quite a few things going on that must be regarded as very disquieting. Darkness extending as far as the Greyflood, under which Elrond cannot see. Wolves hunting in areas where they should not be. And the land is empty...empty in a way which Aragorn later realizes is unnatural. Finding nothing is the remarkable think - like in the Sherlock Holmes story ["Silver Blaze", I think] - where the critical clue is that the dog didn't bark.

• Probably caught off guard - Malbeth
  I don't think he expected the Black Riders to fail.
• One Word... - HammerHead
  Hubris
• It was said that the Riders were "unhorsed and unmasked" in the flood. - Nenya
  The implication was that the ringwraiths had gone to ground until they could essential regroup (in Mordor?), get new mounts, and regain their strength. Unsubstantial and vulnerable at present, they're probably each staying as low key and invisible as possible as they make their slow way back to Sauron.
• He's a Busy Maia - HammerHead

Lord of the Rings : Book 2, Chapter 4
Journey in the Dark
A Discussion Led by Inferno

• Book II; Chapter 4: Summing Up (A Writer's Perspective.) - Inferno
  Looking at this chapter from the standpoint of writing it, I want to point out a few things.

• Thanks, Inferno. Good job. - Bullroarer
• Thanks, Inferno. Nice summary. - Kimi
• Great work, Inferno. - GaladrielTX
  You mention two things here that I had forgotten. The first is that Moria's origins went back to the First Age. (Actually, I'm not sure that I ever knew that. I guess I thought it was founded shortly before the Rings were forged in the Second Age.) Second, the suspense I felt during my first reading of FOTR, wondering what happened to Balin and his followers and getting worried about those hammering sounds and the flapping feet.
• Well done - Ophelia
  One of the things i notice about this chapter is the detail of Moria's fallen grandeur. Of course, Arnor used to be a great realm, but finding a few artifacts is quite different than being inside an immense, beautiful hall that has been hidden by darkness. Tolkien makes the fall of Numenor, for instance, intangible in LOTR- but he gives us great detail so the reader can feel the height of Moria's fall.
• Thanks, Inferno. Good job. - Patty
• Excellent summary - Blue Wizard
  And thank you for a great discussion this week.
• Nice summary, Inferno - Idril Celebrindal
  Thanks for leading the discussion this week!
• Book II; Chapter 4: Frodo's Senses. - Inferno
  Frodo notices an increased ability in night-vision and hearing. He also is more aware of the weight of the Ring while in Moria-- 'at whiles'. This implies to me that the weight of the Ring comes and goes. Is this in reaction to the presence of the Balrog, Gollum, or some other 'evil' that lies in Moria?

• OPPOSITION HERE - Strife
  I don't think the ring has anything to do with the 'evil' in Moria. I don't think the ring wants 'evil' to bear it, just a powerful being. It just so happens that the 'evil' power seems to be more prominent in most situations. Most of the 'good' powers (ie. Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn) reject the temptation of the One Ring therefor nullifying its attraction towards them. Also, in my opinion when the ring in this situation (and a few others) senses the weakness of Frodo/bilbo/any other bearer, it tries to escape to be found by another more powerful being.....just think of the Balrog with the ring....think it would work?
• I would say . . . - Soothfast
  The Ring tends to feel heavier and place a greater burden on its bearer when being carried through any place of great evil such as Moria and Mordor. It could also be psychological. The ring-bearer may simply be more likely to notice the Ring weighing down on his person when surrounded by darkness and bale. The darkness leaves little to see, so other senses are heightened and the mind dwells on more tactile matters.
• We know... - Pteppic
  ...that the Ring can adjust its size and it also gets heavier the closer to Mordor it gets. I think the Ring senses the evil in its surroundings and is naturally attracted to it. Moria is filled with evil, and so the Ring tries to escape to the evil that exists there. I don't think it is searching for anybody special, just reacting to the evil in the surroundings. I think of the Ring as a sort of homing device, which seeks out evil, by becoming larger and heavier, so that it's current owner will be inclined to lose it (if he's wearing it on his finger) and then transmitting some sort of signal to the preferred owner (the more evil one). I think the Ring senses the good in Frodo (or rather doesn't sense the evil), and is trying to get away. As I said I don't think where to is very important to it other than it should be more evil than Frodo.

• I had interpretted that slightly differently. - Nenya
  I read it to mean that while in Moria, the One Ring was somehow closer to or more attuned to Sauron. The ring's powers were therefore enhanced, and so Frodo, as Ringbearer, experienced more acute senses.

• morgul-knives - Ophelia
  there are indications of frodo's senses becoming more acute before the entrance to moria, though- particularly on the last leg of the journey to rivendell. frodo seems to think that being wounded by the morgul-blade causes this new ability. Moria is just a chance for him to notice it- when else was he in such complete darkness?
  the ring is known to vary in weight and size- i think that the presence of the orcs and the balrog are what caused the ring to weigh more.
• Book II; Chapter 4: Pippin and the Stone. - Inferno
  When Pippin throws the rock into the well and the drums start, Gandalf says that the two events may not be related. Since the caves have been abandoned and in disrepair for quite some time, I would imagine that rocks occasionally fall, and that Pippin's stone would not have caused the drums to start. What other events could have triggered the drums in the deep?

• Interesting suggestions by everyone else here. - Kimi
  Given all those, it would've been a miracle if the orcs hadn't noticed the Fellowship. :-)

• Gandalf could also be the culprit.... - Jester_rm
  Before the episode with the stone, he sits alone on watch for 6 hours, smoking his pipe, deciding which way to go.

• good point, Jester. - Patty
• Minor correction? - Idril Celebrindal
  The Fellowship heard the distinctive sound of a hammer striking stone (identified by Gimli, who presumably is very familiar with that noise) after Pippin dropped the pebble down the well. But the point is the same: that by dropping the stone, Pippin alerted the orcs to the Fellowship's presence.

• Also, Gollum was trapped in Moria - Blue Wizard
  having entered throught the Eastern Gate, and being unable to find the way to the Hollin Gate. His padding about made some small measure of noise, which you might expect the Orcs to have investigated from time to time. So, one would expect that the mere dropping of a stone would set the attack in motion. It should have paled in comparison to the noise that the Watcher made.

• Yes. I imagine the Watcher 's activities... - Patty
  pulling down all the rocks,uprooting the two trees, etc. started things. It's not too much to say that I bet the orcs were aware of them almost immediately, even if not aware exactly where they were. But I still wanted to thrash Pippin for doing it. "Fool of a Took" was not to strong to call him at that time.
• Perhaps it was a signal... - Binky
  if there was any communication between the watcher and the orcs...'when they come I'll baricade the gates so they can't get out this way....perhaps the sound of the trees being uprooted etc was what the orcs were waiting for...

• I think that's a bit too much planning.... - Jester_rm
  That would imply that the orcs in Moria a) knew that they were coming through Moria, b) would be able to open the door, c) could communicate with or had control over the watcher, d) were willing to wait to spring the trap until the party had basically passed through all of the mines.

• I wonder, too, how much intelligence the - Kimi
  Watcher had, and whether it would've been possible for the orcs to communicate with it. It does just seem like a nasty monster. But the noise it made may well have helped alert the orcs.
• Book II; Chapter 4: Illustrations? - Inferno
  In this chapter, we are given two 'illustrations'; one of the doors of Moria, and the other of Balin's tombstone. Why include these items? In the Fellowship, these are the only two such illustrations, the only other incident even resembling this is when the elven script on the One Ring is shown in Shadows of the Past. What is gained from having these illustrations in the text? Or, if you'd rather, what would be lost if these illustrations were missing?

• Putting this question in context - Blue Wizard
  Why are these illustrations (and no others) contained in the LOTR Chapters of The Red Book of Westmarch? There are, of course other illustrations in the Hobbit, particularly Thorin's map.

• That's brilliant reasoning, Blue. - Kimi
  Not that I'm surprised or anything...
• Dwarf runes & sundry - Idril Celebrindal
  The runes on Balin's tomb and the Feanorian script on the door fascinated me when I first read LOTR. I spent some time flipping between the appendices and the illustrations trying to figure out what each said.

• Book II; Chapter 4: Borrowing from oneself. - Inferno
  Gimli quotes a section of a poem about Khazad-Dum while the Fellowship travels in Moria. Part of it:

• does the "loan" mean something? - Ophelia
  Tolkien borrows from himself mainly to draw connections between characters/situations- one example is the Aragorn/Arwen romance which is obviously meant to recall Beren/ Luthien, i think a large amount of the repetitions are on purpose.
  I'm reminded of the saying that Shakespeare only wrote seven plays. Shakespeare used a lot of stock plots and characters- Tolkien, however, doesn't. The re-use of that stanza could easily have been quite intentional.
• Well, THAT explains it! - GaladrielTX
  While reading the Khazad-dűm poem, I got to the part about pearls and thought to myself this time, "how Elvish!" How clever of you to catch this. I think he just liked those lines so much he used them twice, and circumstances were similar enough that they work both times.

• Menegroth and Khazad-dűm - Kimi
  are each the greatest dwelling of their respective kindreds upon Middle-earth.

• More parallels - Idril Celebrindal
  Menegroth and Khazad-dum were built around the same time (early in the First Age). Both were constructed by Dwarves. Thingol's Elves worked in partnership with the Dwarves to build Menegroth, and it's possible that the Dwarves of Khazad-dum were also influenced by Elvish aesthetics. (The early partnership between Elves and Dwarves greatly improved the Dwarves' design sense and the Elves' engineering ability.) Finally, both Menegroth and Khazad-dum were eventually abandoned by their inhabitants under duress -- Khazad-dum after the balrog awoke, and Menegroth after the sons of Feanor attacked it and killed Dior, Nimloth, their sons, and many others.
• Tom Bombadil is the prime example. - Annael
  He came into being separately from the story of LOTR, but Tolkien liked him so much (and felt he stood for something important - the capacity of detachment, of observing without "owning" - very Zen come to think of it) that he plopped him in to LOTR regardless. Also, I suspect, to please his children.

• Book II; Chapter 4: Friendship between Elf and Dwarf - Inferno
  We are told at the gates of Moria that the Friendship between Elf and Dwarf was greater in the days of Hollin. What incidents would have caused that friendship to wane? This is far after the slaying of Thingol by Dwarves, and the War of Wrath where, it is said, Dwarves fought on both sides. What happened during the Second Age or early Third Age to cause the gulf between Dwarf and Elf?

• Legolas is a Silvan Elf - Idril Celebrindal
  What's remarkable about the friendship between Gimli and Legolas is that Legolas is a Silvan Elf. Thranduil's folk apparently were not involved in the Sindarin conflict with the Dwarves in Doriath, but they are not particularly friendly to Dwarves. There was little friendship between the Dwarves of Erebor and the Elves of Mirkwood. As recently as the events in The Hobbit, Legolas's father Thranduil imprisoned Thorin and company and fought against the Dwarves briefly in the Battle of the Five Armies (before the coming of the orc army forced the Elves, Men and Dwarves to unite against a common foe). Yet Legolas and Gimli managed to overcome this history (particularly difficult since Gimli's father, Gloin, was involved in both these events, and dwarves revere their parents) and form a relationship of mutual respect and trust.

• Durin's Bane - Malbeth
  I agree with hollowTree that the Hollin/Moria friendship was a special case. In addition to that, in Lorien they blame the Dwarves for releasing the Balrog in the Third Age.
• yup, that's what I thought too. - leo
• Hollin was a special case. - hollowTree
  The friendship, as I take it, was specific to Moria and Hollin rather than generally between dwarf and elf.

• The Dwarves and the Noldor - Blue Wizard
  especially Celebrimbor's people, were especially close because of the reverence with which they held Aule (who, of course, made the Dwarves). Tolkien specifically says that this is the reason for their closeness in the Silmarillion.

• The Seven Rings of the Dwarf Lords - Ron Austin
  Exagerated the Tendency of suspicious and covetness in the Dwarf Lords.
  Also Sauron had a long agenda of working to sunder the various races.
• I agree that the success of the Dwarf/Elf relationship - GaladrielTX
  in the Second Age was that the Elves concerned were Noldor who had much in common with the dwarves and relatively few grudges. I get the impression that, by the end of the Third Age, there aren't too many Noldor left in Middle-earth. So by then, good relationships between Dwarves and the remaining Elves would be rare, in contrast.

• Book II; Chapter 4: The Wargs. - Inferno
  After the warg attack on the Fellowship, there are no bodies the next morning. What happened to them?

• Warg Power - Steve D
  What happened to them anyway? In the Hobbit they were one of the Five Armies, equal to Elves, Men, Dwarves, and Orcs. In LOTR they have almost no role.

• What happened to them? - GaladrielTX
  I always thought that it turned out that the wargs were just an illusion and that's why there was nothing there in the morning (vs. eating their dead or being dragged off).
• My guess is Saruman - Kimi
  For the reasons given by others. Saruman certainly had Wargs in Isengard. (As well as Frodo seeing them from Amon He, and Gandalf reporting having seen them, Eomer refers to Wolf-Riders issuing from Isengard.)
  
  
• I think they worked for... - leo
  Saruman, we know he must have kept an eye in the direction of Rivendell, possibly assuming that the ring would be there. We know Saruman had wargs in his army, because Gandalf mentions hearing them when he was held captive in Orthanc.

• Maybe, inasmuch as these wargs had no spirits... - Patty
  Saruman or Sauron reincarnated their bodies to fight again. A la Gandalf.
• I think.... - Eomund's Daughter
  ....that they ate the remains of the dead, killed in battle, as it were (as is mentioned later on in LOTR, after the Battle of Helm's Deep, etc.)...also proving that they weren't just hunting....

• On Amon Hen - Blue Wizard
  Frodo sees wolves issuing forth from Isengard; there is no other mention of wolves in the movement of the vast armies that he witnesses, so it is entirely possible that the Wargs which attack in this chapter are associated with Sauruman, not Sauron. This would also fit with the repeated sightings of crebain from Dunland and Fangorn, who are obviously in league with Saruman.
• Aha. - Bullroarer
  Good call, Blue. So the wargs could quite possibly have been Saruman's. I think my argument about Sauron below applies equally well to Saruman -- yes he was looking for the Ring, but the wargs found the Fellowship on their own. They may have been sent to patrol the west side of the Mountains and look for people heading south. If Saruman knew the Fellowship had entered Moria, it could explain how he knew to ambush them at Amon Hen.
• I don't recall any - Stumpy
  instances of wargs associating with Uruk Hai. I have to beleive they were only used by Sauron. They were probably on the lookout for Frodo.

• In my view, the wargs worked for Sauron... - Patty
  I just base this on that having tortured Gollum later being hot on Frodo's tail into Rivendell thru his spies, Sauron knew where the Ring was and sent his wargs over to the west side to try to stop them. Also, weren't there wargs (wolves) in The Hobbit that had the hobbits up a tree long before Saurman was active? Even though they weren't seeking the ring I wonder if Sauron wasn't already running them.
• It doesn't make much sense to me... - Inferno
  to have a small force of wargs as your only presence if you're trying to stop someone from getting anywhere with the Ring. Everything Sauron does points towards his belief that one of the Great will try to use the Ring. A small force of Wargs wouldn't be much use against a Ringwielder with an Army out of Rivendell.

• How much control does Sauron really have at this point? - Bullroarer
  Maybe he just sent out a general APB: "Everyone look out for a bunch of losers heading south from Rivendell." and the wargs picked up the scent and gave chase. I never thought of this encounter as a deliberate attempt on Sauron's part to stop the Ring. If he knew where it was he'd spend every bit of energy he had to get at it. I think he was still dealing with the defeat at Rivendell, getting his Nazgul rehabilitated, recruiting down in Harad, eyeing Saruman, Eyeing Denethor, massing his forces and getting ready to drop the boom on Gondor. It probably wasn't for some time that he realised what his little wargies had found.
• I agree with the Dispatch consept - Nugelfin
  I think Sauron was taken aback after the defeat at Rivendell. His reaction might have been to dispatch quick movers who could cover a lot of ground and follow a sent. Wargs fit that bill nicely. I don't think his intention was to actually capture the ring at this point but to locate it as soon as possible. This would give him an opportunity to re-group and prepare for another capture attempt.
• Did Saruman's forces include wargs later on? - Bullroarer
  I don't recall any wargs at Helm's Deep and I think that if he'd had them he would have used them.

• Book II; Chapter 4: The Watcher in the Water. - Inferno
  While we don't get the 'name' of the creature until the next chapter (in the Book of Mazarbul), we see the watcher in this chapter. What is it exactly?

• A couple of comments . . . - Annael
  It would be a major effort to breach the dam enough to drain the valley; beyond the ability of the Fellowship I think. It was evening already and they were in a hurry to get to the Door; going along the lakeshore wouldn't have seemed like a detour, just the most direct route available.

• I think the Watcher was... - Cat of Queen Berúthiel
  in front of the doors some time before Balin's folk were finally defeated. As the book tells the fellowship 'The Watcher in the Water took Oin' (using memory here, I don't have the books with me), so I get the impression he turned up in cahoots with the Orcs. This does suggest some sort of organisation, so I am guessing Sauron was involved. Maybe it went something like this:
  1) Dwarves dig up Balrog.
  2)Sauron (or perhaps Saurman, though the Orcs there were not described as carrying any of his tokens) decides it is an excellent opportunity to dislodge the Dwarves with minimal manpower. They already have trouble INSIDE. So he plonks the watcher on the western gate (I am sure there are lots of creatures under the mountains he could discover) and sends Orcs to the Eastern gate. Then it would simply be a matter of time, without a lot of outside help coming to the Dwarves' aid.
  I would also agree that though draining the lake could be a possibility, it is not a practical one. It is actually surprising how long it takes to drain even an inch of water spread over a decent sized area (I am amazed at this every time my balcony floods and I always have to wait a lot longer than I expect for it to drain away), so I think with time pressing, and definitely wanting to be inside before dark (c.f. Wargs etc), draining is probably not an option. And the less you interfere with things, the less trouble you are likely to find.
  
  
• I think the Watcher made the Dam ... - Ron Austin
  The Watcher is strong enough to rip the door trees out and pile rocks to block the door so it was probably a pretty substantial dam.
• Rocks are heavy - Kimi
  That's my profound statement of the day :-)

• My Humble Thoughts (I'm not humble...) - HammerHead
  I would think that by the name "Watcher in the Water", Tolkien is implying that the creature was put there by some force to guard the gates of Moria. The problem is WHO. Sauron and Saruman are possibilities. It could even be an ancient agent of Melkor/Morgoth. However, we mustn't overlook the possibility of Dwarves or some other "good guy" (for lack of a better term). Do you think it possible some dwarves put it there (however, how to explain Gimli's ignorance of this is a different matter) to guard the gate, not from preventing ENTRY but preventing EXIT? Someone who knew about Durin's Bain and didn't want it loose on the world? Or perhaps someone other thand dwarves. The filth of the water discounts this fact, for by the nature of "good versus evil" in LOTR, a more intelligent force would have been used to this purpose. Therefore...

• Until I re-read this chapter I had forgotten about.. - Patty
  Boromir casting that stone. That and sounding his horn back at Rivendell put him, IMHO in league with Pippin for doing thoughtless things on this journey.
  I expect they didn't undam (is that a word?) the water, as they all thought it looked "unwholesome" and didn't want to walk in, or I suppose touch it. Was the point at which it was dammed close to them?
• Book II; Chapter 4: Power of the Ringwraiths. - Inferno
  At the start of this chapter, Gandalf tells Frodo, "The Ringwraiths are deadly enemies, but they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would posess if the Ruling Ring was on their master's hand again."

• The power of the Ring - Kimi
  is part of the power of Sauron. The Nazgul are subject to Sauron, via the part of his power that he put into the One Ring, and any strength they have comes from him.

• Supposition only here. - Nenya
  Sauron had a hand in creating the nine and the seven, so I would guess that their natures would change when he regained possession of the One Ring. Since so much of Sauron was invested in the One Ring, his own power would be restored/enhanced with its return. He would then be able to reach out and tap into the nine and the seven, and perhaps lend some of his power to those rings.

• Some Help Here... - HammerHead
  This is an excellent question! One that I've pondered long and hard. The one problem I always seem to encounter is this:
  Who forged the Nine for Mortal men? Much of the text with which I'm familiar, states that Sauron gave the nine rings to men who were thereby corrupted through the power of the One. First, I've always been curious, who did Sauron give the rings to? Were they living men when they received them? Were they all sorcerors (like the Witch King)? Were they kings? Were they just the Witch King and nine schmoes Sauron picked at random? Were they already evil and corrupted? Were they already spirits when they were given the rings?

• The Great Rings - Blue Wizard
  The Great Rings were all made by the elves, and originally for the elves, using both their own craft (Celebrimbor was, after all, the Grandson of Feanor) and knowledge from Sauron. He had a hand in making the Seven and the Nine, but never touched the Three. The One he made himself, for the purpose (among others) of controlling the others.

• Hmmm... - HammerHead
  Ok, I just checked Arda. Khamul was the Lord of the Nazgul's second, correct? But there's no background on him either.
• Who was the 'Mouth of Sauron?' - Binky
  Was he one of the nine? Khamul...or another..'schmoe'....?

• He was not a ringwraith - Blue Wizard
  Tolkien says so explicitly in "The Black Gate Opens".
  He was a man, one of the Black Numenorians who, though not "immortal" like the Nazgul, had through sorcery extended his life to an extraordinary term (maybe using one of the lesser rings that Sauron had also taken from the Elves?), and in the many years had forgotten his own name.
• Book II; Chapter 4: Options? - Inferno
  After the failure on Caradhras, the Fellowship discusses various options. Return to Rivendell, travel via the Gap of Rohan, take a trip down the seacoast through Lebinin and up into Gondor, or enter Moria.

• yes, I think it was... - leo
  they had no chance of crossing the Cradhras, returning back to Rivendell or taking the road through the gap of Rohan , or even the road to Lebinin would cost way too much time, as Gandalf explained. The road through the Gap of Rohan was even more dangerous because of the presence of Saruman and the Rohirrim, of wich the Fellowship at this time did not know for sure if they would aid them.
• The attack of the camp and the howling of the Wargs did away with any other options - Ron Austin
• It seems to be the only realistic choice - Kimi
  Other ways are either too slow or have known dangers. Moria is an unknown quantity. I think Blue's right, too: Gandalf wanted to go to Lorien. He may well have like the idea of disappearing for a time; I suspect he also wanted to confer with Galadriel.
• I suppose you're right, there is no other option. I just question... - Patty
  whether they shouldn't have attempted the Gap of Rohan. They were basing their refusal to attempt that route on a rumor, a possiblity that the Rohirrim were in league with Sauron, it had just as much chance of being untrue (and it was) as of there being real and more serious danger in Moria (and there was). What do you think?
• I'm with Malbeth on this - Kimi
  It wasn't the rumours of Rohan, it was the grim reality of Saruman's treachery.
• I don't think it was rumors about Rohan - Malbeth
  I think the main problem with a Gap of Rohan route was proximity to Saruman - Gandalf didn't want the Ring anywhere near Saruman's sphere of influence. I also wonder if Gandalf liked the Moria to Lothlorien route as a way of effectively disappearing for a significant period of time. If they had made it through Moria undetected, and weren't spotted by Sauron's spies on the short journey to Lothlorien, he wouldn't know where to look for them.
• The Options - Blue Wizard
  I think that that pretty much exhausts the options.

• Book II; Chapter 4: A Journey in the Dark-- Descent to the Underworld. - Inferno
  It is a standard concept in the majority of mythological backgrounds, that the mythic hero takes a journey into the Underworld as part of his/her heroic quests. Hercules, Theseus, Osiris, and many others from ancient myths enter the Underworld at some point in their journeys. Even Luke Skywalker does this in The Empire Strikes Back, descending into a thematic equivalent of the Underworld, the Dark Side cave on Dagobah.

• Gandalf - Ophelia
  The Moria passage has to be thought of in context with the rest of the series. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli, for example, really do go through the Underworld before they reach Minas Tirith- Frodo and Sam go through the Dead Marches.
  I don't think that Mordor should be counted as an underworld, but as the site of the final heroic confrontation.
  Obviously the Moria passage is significant to Gandalf because of his fall and ressurrection, and Merry and Pippin should also be counted- it is their first real taste of the horrors of the world.
• The transforming trip through the underworld - Blue Wizard
  As we've discussed before, the Hobbits (Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin) have already made two trips through a symbolic underworld, even before reaching Rivendell: (1) the passage under the High Hay from Buckland into the Old Forest; and (2) being trapped in the Barrow Down. But, as Nenya points out, the rite of passage associated with this thematic journey involves a passing of a test, or a transformation.

• Hmmm - your list is interesting as to whom is left off. - Nenya
  Before I read your list of characters, my first reaction was that it was a trip to the Underworld for Gandalf much more so than any of the other characters. He literally travels to the depths of the world, and to the depths of his own life (in a way) during the trek through Moria. It is undeniable that he comes through far more profoundly changed than any of the other characters. He'd be my first choice for your list.
• I agree, Nenya. - Kimi
  My first thought was also Gandalf. His journey through Moria leads to his death and rescurrection; that's quite a potent transformation.
• I'm with Nenya - HammerHead
  Each of the other characters takes a very "uniqute" trip to the underworld, as you describe it, Inferno. Aragorn's journey through the Paths of the Dead is his individual choice and represents (to him) a more important part of his role in the War of the Ring and his ascent to King. Sam and Frodo's trip to Mordor is more symbolic of their individual purpose and goal, more or less from the beginning of the tale they are destined to face the greatest underworld. The perils they face there are greater than either of them faces in Moria and they come closer to the "Pluto" figure of ME than does any other character. As for Boromir and the other members of the Fellowship, I (personally) wouldn't consider their roles in the War of the Ring to be great enough (heroically) to 'require' a trip to the Underworld. Though, Boromir is great, he is not the greatest hero of this tale; more, he seems to me, a vehicle to illustrate the corruption of the Ring and its nature to control men.

• what about Moria made Legolas and Gimli determine to stay with the Fellowship??? - Binky
  I have often wondered about this..they were orginally on their way home...

• I wondered about that. - Annael

Lord of the Rings : Book 2, Chapter 5
The Bridge of Khazad-dum
A Discussion Led by Annael

• Book II, Chapter 5, The Bridge of Khazad-Dum: Summing Up - Annael
  In the Chamber of Mazarbul, the Fellowship finds and reads the log of Balin's short, ill-fated reign in Moria. No sooner have they read about the grim end of the colony than they hear "drums in the deep" and realize that their presence has been detected. An army of orcs and trolls attacks. Each of the Fellowship has his share in the battle as orcs sweep into the Chamber. We see how the hobbits have grown in their ability to face down fear, and for the first time we see the fighting abilities of Boromir, Legolas, and Gimli. More than that, we see the Fellowship acting as a unit for the first time. They are beginning to form that bond that only those who have been through a severe trial together know.

• *Bows* May your staff never fail you. - Stumpy
  Don't tell anyone, but I come to this page first when I visit TORN. Thanks for your efforts, and good job!
• Thanks, Annael. - Eledhwen
  I'm sorry I missed so much of it, but I certainly enjoyed reading what I did arrive for.
• Thanks, Annael! - GaladrielTX
  That summation was really good too. I started feeling the same emotions I did while reading the chapter, for crying out loud.
• Great job for a great chapter! Thanks. - septembrist
• Great job this week! - Blue Wizard
  Thank you once again.

• I was pleased to see . . . - Annael
  people are starting to jump in with their own questions. That really added to the discussion.

• That's a good point. People should always feel free - Blue Wizard
  to post their own questions about the book, rather than simply rely on the weekly discussion leaders for all the questions. And, the fact that they're doing so is a positive development.

• Book II, Chapter 5. The passage completed. - Annael
  The Fellowship, minus one, has made it through Moria. How has each been affected by the passage? How has the Fellowship as a whole been changed?
• Aragorn. - septembrist
  As I have said before, Aragorn becomes stunned and dazed by Gandalf's loss. It may have been because Gandalf was a father figure to Aragorn. At any event, Aragorn becomes the great procrastinator re the Fellowship. He is happy to stay in Lothlorien and happy to float down the river, waiting until the last minute to make a decision about the Ring and the Fellowship. I thought it unusual for Aragorn to be so uncertain. Only after the breaking does he become certain and forceful.
  Being a procrastinator myself, I can relate. However, we're talking the fate of the world here and Aragorn is not too so great as leader.
• Aragorn's leadership - Robin of Buckland
  I don't think it was as much as he wasn't a *good* leader, he just wasn't used to it. It was also a very sudden burden, plus the grief of Gandalf's loss, re your thoughts.
• I had a thought about that. - Annael
  We'd talked earlier about the Ring "stirring up evil" nearby. I also wonder if the Ring made it harder for those nearby to think clearly. Perhaps on one level, not even conscious, Aragorn was being lured by the Ring. Although he didn't succumb like Boromir, it may have clouded his judgment. It's when the Ring goes across the river and is out of reach that Aragorn snaps out of it and becomes a leader again.

• That's an interesting suggestion, Annael. - Kimi
  I'm not sure I'd take it as far as a generalised muddling of thought, but it's certainly believable that Aragorn was fighting off, albeit subconsciously, the temptation of the Ring, and that this contributed to his indecision.
• Very interesting. - septembrist
  One could even argue that Gandalf was affected since his inability to realize that he was up against a balrog until its appearance on the bridge. He also seemed to be in a general fund until they reached the Chamber of Mazarbul.

• The first read I thought - Stumpy
  that it was unusual for such a major character to die, but I thought it was a way for Aragorn to increase in importance in the story.
• Again we see the hidden strength of the hobbits. - Inferno
  Frodo and Sam both take moderate-to-serious injuries in the Chamber of Marzabul. Once Frodo gets his wind back, which doesn't take very long, he walks/runs along with Sam and the rest of the Fellowship the entire remaining trek through Moria and to the borders of Lorien. Additionally, Frodo takes time to visit the waters of Kheled-zarem with Gimli before his wound is treated.

• Rather than cover everyone - Blue Wizard
  I'm going to focus on Gimli. I understand that originally, Tolkien imagined the Gimli character to be Balin's son, not Gloin's. I suppose that the idea was to make it seem all the more critical for him to want to enter Moria, and finding Balin's tomb to have all the more emotional impact. But, in the end Tolkien decided, for whatever reason, to write the character as a part of the same House of the Dwarves, but not an immediate relative. In doing so, I think that the events in Moria, and Gimli's reaction, are even more powerful than the initial conception.

• Follow-on question. - Annael
  How did you feel the first time you read about Gandalf's fall? Did you think he died?
• Mourned him like the Fellowship. - septembrist
  I believed he died, especially after the elves in Lorien composed songs mourning his death.
  Without Gandalf, the Fellowship could not have made thru Moria even without the Balrog. He exhibited humor, compassion, and courage. I felt the loss.
• I had kind of the same feelings, the most of the others have answered... - Chade
  (well.. those who didn't know in advance what was going to happen anyway... ;)

• No, but that's only because... - GaladrielTX
  A couple of years before I read FOTR I was playing with my friend Amy and her older brother and his friend. The boys were big LOTR fans and wanted to pretend they were Saruman and Gandalf and made us play orcs (big brothers can be mean!). So I knew there was this scene in the book where Saruman is defeated by "Gandalf the White", and that obviously hadn't happened yet at the time Gandalf took his plunge down into the abyss. So I figured he'd be back.
• I saw the movies first, so - Arathorn
  I knew he wasn't. Then, in Bakshi's movie, i thought he wasn't killed. Or if, I thought it was rather dumb, making coming back dead characters. Then his true nature isn't clear in LOTR, and even less in Bakshi's movie.
  It's only years later when i read Unfinished Tales, The istari part, that I truly udnerstood who he was and why he could come back.
• it hurt! - Ophelia
  Gandalf seemed more real to me than most of the characters I had seen so far- i think at that point i put the book down and paused for awhile. I thought after that the fellowship would either break up completely, or be eliminated one by one.
  I was very glad that he came back.
• I read it for the first time before - Kimi
  half the people on TORN were born, so I'm struggling to remember (I bet Mr Kimi remembers; we read it together first). But I think I believed he was really dead. This was obviously the sort of book where the good guys sometimes die.
• I had already been corrupted by... - HammerHead
  ...the movies. I didn't read LOTR until 85 or so and had already seen R/B's ROTK and Bakshi's LOTR. So I pretty much knew Gandalf would be back. I seem to recall reading the interim from the point of view that "to the members of the Fellowship, he IS dead, that's how this is written, from their point of view".
• I didn't really believe he was dead. - Nenya
  After all, this was a fantasy story, and Gandalf was a wizard after all. Gandalf was a neat character, but I never really identified closely enough with him to be really perturbed; it was just another jog in the story line.

• It's amazing what you can remember - Blue Wizard
  when the right question triggers the correct synapse to fire.

• I almost cried! - Khazad-Dűm
  At the time Gandalf was my favorite character. He was an Ultra Bad Ass, whom I thought would end up duking it out with Sauron. It crossed my mind that perhaps he wasn't dead, but only briefly.
• I can't remember... - Malbeth
  It's too long ago :-( But according to my survey of three relative newcomers (two of them not finished yet), all three were pretty sure that somehow Gandalf wasn't dead, and he would show up again. That expectation reduced the impact of his death.
• Gandalf'd death - Binky
  
  Gandalf's 'death' seemed unreal to me when I first read it...He was a wizzard who had been around for centuries..he was so important to the story...I couldn't believe he would be gone that early in the story...I thought he would turn up again somewhere...if only in Frodo's dreams or something...

• "Frodo! Trust your feelings!" - Annael
  Just kidding. I think that's pretty much how I felt, too. I couldn't believe he was really gone. When they got to Lothlorien and had to tell the Elves, that's when I began to think maybe he really was dead.
• Book II, Chapter 5. Gandalf on the Bridge. - Annael
  Gandalf's staff breaks when he strikes the bridge. Why?
• If it has power, than to keep the Balrog or Sauron or whoever from claiming the staff? - MikeyMonty
• Hmm...Staff has power or is symbol of power? - Stumpy
  This one could rival Balrog wings!

• I like that, Stumpy. A good compromise :-) - Kimi
• I think THAT is exactly right - Ophelia
  I think the staff-ring comparison still works, though- except the staff is more like Gandalf's own elven-ring- An aid, a focal point. What I'm wondering if where he gets the staff he owns as Gandalf The White- was it fashioned in Lorien, or what?
• This is how I get mine: - Stumpy
  I find a sapling that is the right width so that it will fit comfotrably in the hand, and not be too heavy.
  I use a saw to cut it level by the root where the wood is dense. I let it age several months until it is tough but still a bit springy. You can put some notches where your hand would rest comfortably while hiking and sand them smooth.

• I have one too! - Annael
  It's sassafras, rock hard, and I have wrapped the part where I grip it with suede leather strips. It's been my steady companion on many a backpack, and I don't know how I'd manage without it.
• I wondered that too. - Annael
  I don't see Elves making a staff for a Maia, somehow. Even Galadriel. Unless he and she did it together? Interesting question. How DO wizards get their staves?
• Hmm. I imagine that - Kimi
  they brought them with them from Valinor. But where did Gandalf's replacement staff come from? I haven't seen any reference to that. The Valar might have sent a new one back with his new body. Odd that they didn't send any clothes at the same time, though.

• Maybe they are made of wood from the two trees of Valinor - Ron Austin
• It's his "ring" Perhaps... - HammerHead
  Gandalf and Sauron are of the same order, are they not? Isn't it possible that for the Istari, much of their power was was carried externally? Put into something else, as Sauron did. This could have been a way to limit the growth of their power while at the same time giving them an extra edge at times.

• I think that is exactly right - Khazad-Dűm
  The old Gandalf was out and the New Whiter Gandalf was in. The stick is Gandalf the Grey...Old, worn, bent. The destruction of his cane foreshadowed his eminent doom. What I believe is that Gandalf really did die in the fight with the Balrog. He won the fight but he died. Notice how he was never quite the same again after that? He wasn't the same person anymore(not speaking literally). A huge part of him dies because of the fight and his promotion to White, and I believe that is what the snapping cane symbolizes.
• The staff itself does seem to have some power - Kimi
  Gandalf was certainly very reluctant to leave it outside at Edoras.

• Yes, I agree. I think it was the burst of power needed.. - Patty
  it broke it asunder.
• Saruman's staff breaks when he loses his power, too. - GaladrielTX
• It seems to me that the staff is a symbol of his power. - GaladrielTX
  Perhaps he exhausted all his power in his fight with the Balrog and with that last act of breaking the bridge.

• Book II, Chapter 5. The Balrog. - Annael
  No question, just your chance to say whatever it is you want to say about the Balrog. Even if it's been said before. Go ahead. Mention the "w" word.
• THE ONE AND ONLY!!! - Strife
  Sorry that this message comes sooooo late. Considering you all posted replies within 24 hours....I had to work a 11 hour shift at work.
  ANYWAY.
  The firey, whip-lashing winged/not winged monster is one of my favourite characters in the book. I mean come one, a fallen Maiar, doomed to live out life in deep inside a huge mountain....not to mention completely engulfed in flame, HOW COOL!'
  But I just have one question, why do you think JRRT didn't tell more of the battle between Gandalf and Balrog???? I would have loved to hear about the spell or whatever finally defeated the hot tempered beast!

• Because . . . - Annael
  the whole tale is told from the Hobbits' perspective, so anything that happens to someone else when they're not there is told to them. The only exception is when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are on their own, I guess because it would be too much to tell the hobbits THAT whole tale. So they hear it from Gandalf, who didn't want to think about it or talk about it!

• One thing that I really didn't like was - Stumpy
  Gimli covering his eyes and cowering in fear. As IF a dwarf would do that! *Hmmf*
• By this poing... - HammerHead
  ...Gimli had just experienced some pretty terrible things, from his perspective. Perhaps it's not fear so much as a willingness to die. Almost surrender to a death wish.
• Maybe it was because of the w.....? - Draupne
• Death of Balrog (forgive my ignorance) - Chade
  How exactly is the death of the Balrog descpibed in the book?
  I don't own the books myself and am far too lazy to borrow them from my friend to check it out by myself... ;)
  (And besides - when thinking of it - I think my friend already borrowed the books to someone else)
  Does it die from landing after the long fall like a big *slasch* on the ground (was there "ground" at the "bottom"?) or is it something Gandalf does to kill it?

• There's not a lot of detail. - Kimi
  In TTT, "The White Rider", Gandalf says, "I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountainside where he smote it in his ruin."

• Well, there's a little bit more detail - Blue Wizard
  Gandalf says that he and the Balrog fall and fall and fall and fall from the Bridge, and at the bottom, finally, they plunge into water flooding the lower levels of Moria. The water quenches the Balrog's flame, and it becomes a creature of slime. Gandalf keeps whacking it with his sword and chasing it through the depths of Moria. Eventually, they come to Durins Stairs, which run from the very bottom of Moria to the very pinnacle. Once outside, the Balrog's flame rekindles, and they battle on top of the mountain - Galdalf says it would have looked like a lightning storm from afar. Then he finally throws down the Balrog.

• Thanks, Blue; I was being lazy :-) - Kimi
  I was referring to the actual "death" of the Balrog, but presumably it wouldn't have been possible for Gandalf to "cast down" the Balrog if it hadn't been pretty knocked about by the battle you described so well.
• OK, I have never before posted on - Cat of Queen Berúthiel
  this subject.
  But since everyone else has, I have to have at least ONE post.
  I asked a friend about his impression of Balrog wings (all due to this debate here), in order to get an 'outside' and 'fresh, untainted' view. He has read and enjoyed the books, but thinks getting on this site and such stuff is going a little overboard. But I digress.
  His impression was that the Balrog DID have wings, quite big ones, but they were redundant in as much they couldn't help him to fly much. They just waved around and added to the scare factor. Let's think in terms of physics. The bigger the animal, the more effort they need to get off the ground. Eagles and other birds compensate by having very light bones. Those big birds are really very light to pick up. As opposed to overweight pigeons, whose stomachs outweigh any light bones nature gave them. And we all know how noisy, and how much effort they need to lift off. 'Flitting around' they can not.
  If a Balrog is this great strong whip-wielding whatever, then he would probably need a big runup to get off the ground - can't do that on a narrow bridge, or whilst busy fighting Gandalf on a mountain peak. Without a runup, he wouldn't get off the ground. And if he could, it might be thought of like a chicken. Chickens can fly up to roost, but not much further. Has anyone seen a chicken soaring around in the sky? There is a good reason. Their wing lift/weight ratio (is this sounding convincingly scientific?) is too small. Hovering above enemies cracking whips of fire would certainly be out for a Balrog - this would need way too much effort.
  So in the end, if the Balrog has wings in the movie, as long as we are convinced that he is not an efficient flyer, then everything is fine.
  If he doesn't have wings in the movie, who cares.
  As long as he scares the hell out of us.
  Sorry this was so long, but I had to get it ALL in my ONE post on this subject.
• I tend to agree... - HammerHead
  ... they would add to the "scare factor" and possibly provide a means for gliding or reducing speed in a fall. But, like CQB said, larger birds don't fly in a manner similar to most smaller birds. In fact, the larger the bird, the less they actually "flap" their wings in flight. Eagles, hawks, condors, they all rely on air currents to maintain much of their flight, using their large, broad wings to cover as much space of that current as possible. Smaller birds do not have the surface area to rely on air currents, thus, they must provide lift of their own and therefore flap their wings quite a bit more often than their larger cousins.

• What is the average weight of a swallow? - Arathorn
• *Sees cue* An African or a European swallow? - Cat of Queen Berúthiel
• Sorry, but, I have to write my favourite line... - Cat of Queen Berúthiel
  "It's not a question of where he grips it - it's a simple question of weight ratio. A five ounce bird can not carry a one pound coconut!"

• Yes . . . - Annael
  the way his voice breaks in exasperation on "grips."

• I find it interesting that there is only one balrog there.... - Patty
  apparently the same one awakened by the dwarves, then went back to sleep. While they don't seem real social in nature (sleeping all that time and never a thought for a bath before meeting company) I am surprised that there was only one there. I guess his wings took up all the room where he slept, no room for another one.
• Right at its age it probably had its share of wrinkles - Ron Austin
• Mighty demon of fire/Died from a fall/Why didn't he fly? - Stumpy
• Balrog Eyes. - Inferno
  While I've never seen Balrog eyes described, there's a comment about Arien in the Silmarillion (Don't have the book, so I can't do a direct quote) that relates:

• I bet it has red eyes. - Kimi
  Evil things usually seem to.

• If balrogs are fallen Maiar, like Sauron - Arathorn
  They could change their form when they like, no?
  So, this means that they would be able to appear as...
  S
  p
  o
  i
  l
  e
  r
  .
  .
  .

• The "w" word"? - Nenya
  I'll wager we were welcoming well-worn words which were widely wielded when wiseacres weekly wrote wrathfully, waging war while wielding wonderful wit with words: whip, web-footed, wattle, wool, walleye.

• Such a winsome Elf - Sauron the Maia
  Wetas was the "w" word, I'll bet.
• I'm sure it had pointed ears. - Blue Wizard
• Book II, Chapter 5. The Attack. - Annael
  Seems like the inhabitants of Moria were awfully well organized. They waited until the Fellowship was in the Chamber of Mazarbul to attack, and someone had already set fire down below to block their way. Were they lying in wait for the Fellowship do you think? If so, who was behind that - Saruman, Sauron, or the Balrog? Or do you think any traveler through Moria have met the same concerted attack?
• I'm not sure how organized all this really was - Blue Wizard
  The orcs attack in the chamber, but they only attack from one side, instead of trapping them between two converging sets of orcs, thus permitting the escape. As for the fires, I'm not sure that they were set deliberately. A Balrog is, after all, a being of fire wrapped in shadow- I'm guessing that conflagration follows it whereever it goes, no planning required. And, there could have been even better places to attack, say a narrow, low passageway where the men could not stand and fight.

• or perhaps . . . - Annael
  Orcs dammed the Sirannon to trap the Dwarves, and then the Watcher found its way/was put into the resulting lake.
• That's what I think - Arathorn
• A related question - Malbeth
  About that "orc chieftain" that speared Frodo. This was no ordinary orc. He was particularly large (almost man-high) and skilled - skilled enough to get past both Boromir and Aragorn. He seemed to be wearing special armor, at least different from any other orcs that are specifically described (I think). And he seemed to be specifically going after the ring-bearer. Not even just hobbits in general, unless he just guessed right, but Frodo specifically. Any ideas out there?
• The Orc - Inferno
  My impression is that it went after Frodo because Frodo stabbed the Cave Troll with Sting. Frodo's blade, being of Elven make was capable of such a blow. The orc probably realized that this member of the company was more dangerous than some of the others because he was able to deliver such a blow, and the orc went after him to eliminate what was percieved as a greater threat.

• Were was the Balrog when Azog ruled Moria??? - Arathorn
  I've asked it before in a previous message. Why the balrog, the most evilc reature after Sauron (probably tougher than Witch-King himself, or at least as potentially powerful), why did he allow a pityful orc to rule Moria, when he was there and chased the dwarves centuries ago??
  DOn't tell me he was lazy and only wanted to sleep without being disturbed - so the fact that orcs ruled Moria was making sure no good people would come and bother him.
  Then, he doesn't do anything in the battle at Moria's doors, when he could celarly have make the orcs win.
• About Frodo - - Annael
  That's a good point about Sting. As the Elven-blade was aware of Orcs, perhaps Orcs also "felt" the presence of Elves or Elvish work?

• Although this brings up a new question. - Annael
  What if the Balrog got the Ring?
• Yikes! - Malbeth
  Never thought about that possibility, but I think it would have been a rival to Sauron, not his servant. The Balrog would have remembered Sauron as its former superior in Morgoth's forces, but if Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, etc. feared they would succumb to the lure of the ring's power, there's no doubt the Balrog would. It would have tried to take Sauron's place as a new Dark Lord, and it might have succeeded.

• The barlog wasn't under Sauron's orders - Arathorn
  I even doubt any balrog was under Sauron's command in first age. They directly obeyed GOthmog and Morgoth (or only him). Sauron's role in first age is weird. His main actions are taking care of Angband with the balrogs when Melkor was in Valinor, then taking Minas Tirith (!) in the pass of Sirion - the name himself could explain why he wanted so high to take the city of Gondor. Finally, Luthien and Huan beat him, and he fled. Perhaps was he in disgrace after that. And I think Morgoth has with Glaurung and Gothmog really powerful servants, as Sauron was mainly a leader that doesn't fight himself, a bit like Morgoth. So we could even wonder if he wasn't the leader after first age because all the other were dead, not because he was really so pwoerful. Then, he's clearly one of the (THE) most powerful Maia, which would mean that, balrogs being maia, (and dragons?? which origin?), he was the second-in-command. I figure him rather like a steward to the king, that has some clear and decisive missions appointed to him, but merely he should have seconded Morgoth i ruling the evil troops and scheming against Elves.
• Balrog led the attack. - septembrist
  Gandalf also states that the some of the orcs were "black Uruks of Mordor", so I think Saruman does not play a part in this.
  Also any traveller, especially a group of travellers, would have been attacked.
  
  
• Any traveller that they perceived - Kimi
  would certainly have been met with an attack (they don't seem to have noticed Gollum, but he's a quiet little proto-hobbit travelling on his own).

• The Balrogs were not mindless monsters - Ron Austin
  The balrogs are described as the highest elf-bane short of Sauron himself. I think the rise of Sauron probably stirred the Balrog who set the Watcher and had Orcs keep watch. IMHO We can certainly infer the Trolls and Orcs in Moria took orders from the Balrog.
• The Watcher - VLT
  You say it was Balrog ho set the Watcher in the Lake. There is one question I have never seen answered (apart from the question of WHAT was the Watcher anyway) and it is where this Watcher came from. I mean it was clearly the water creature who inhabited the lake after the dam was made. But where was it before that? Are there any underground waters in Moria? Did it live in Kheled-Zaram (pardon my spelling)? Any idea?
• I wouldn't think it lived in the Mirrormere...but... - Patty
  however it got there it was there when Balin's folk arrived. And a watcher is there, postioned to alert SOMEONE, by definition, so someone is running him.
  I know the balrog is a servant of Sauron, but, unlike the Nazgul he has never been controlled by rings, so I don't think he was aroused by the presence of the one.
• Book II, Chapter 5. Spell and Counter-Spell - Annael
  Was it the Balrog who came into the Chamber of Mazarbul and tried to open the door Gandalf had shut? If so, why wasn't it buried when the roof of the chamber gave way - or was it? And what is "Command"?
• Clearly the Balrog - Blue Wizard
  cast the counter-spell.

• Yes, I think it was the Balrog. - Kimi
  Given Gandalf's description of "something that I have not met before" and "I have never felt such a challenge", it must have been - unless there was something even worse than a Balrog in Moria! It's certainly not a mere orc or troll.

• I think it was the Balrog... - Dubhdarra
  simply because I don't think the orcs or trolls had any type of "magical" power to confront Gandalf with. That leaves the Balrog. And as for it being buried in the collapse of the Chamber, I don't have an answer as to how it could have survived. If memory serves me correctly (iron chef.. hehe) Gothmog is killed by Glorfindel by a fall from the side of the Echoriath. Ditto for Gandalf and this balrog.. If a Balrog can die from the impact of a fall, couldn't it just as well die from the force of the collapse of what I imagine are tons of rock. I only can assume that this Balrog escaped the chamber before the actual collapse.

• Interesting point, but... - Groovicles
  was the balrog actually buried. Gandalf thought so, but he said he wasn't sure. You must also remember that Balrogs are quick sturdy, a fall from a mountain would kill a balrog (like the Moria one, Gothmog) but you must understand that the mountain did not fall on the Balrog after the first confrintation at the door.
• I agree ..... - Dubhdarra
  I may have not been clear in my comments. I was just pointing out that if the Balrog had been in the chamber at its collapse, it would not likely survive. So, It must have left the chamber or not been in it. I don't think it necessary for the Balrog to be directly on the other side of the door from Gandalf. He could very well have been accross the chamber by the other door and still be opposing Gandalf through "magical power"..

• Very true - Groovicles
  Oh i'm sure he got out, i mean he wouldn't have been killed, but he would have been trapped (are Balrogs he's?). i do think he was right by the door though because Gandalf said everything when quiet then he felt a presents right on the other side of the door
• Maybe he could tell the roof was going to go and . . . - Annael
  flew out!
• Well... - Groovicles
  i think that'd be a little hard for something that big to just fly out when he (is it a he?) has a legion of Orcs surrounding him (or her?)

• Book II, Chapter 5. "You have a good blade, Frodo son of Drogo!" - Annael
  Why does Sting pierce the troll's hide when Boromir's sword does not (and is notched when he tries)?
• Sting came from the same Troll Horde that Glamdring and Orcrist were in ... - Ron Austin
  and seems to have the same properties ie glowing blue in the presense of Orcs.
  Bilbo learns that Sting was made in Gondolin which would make it part of the pinnicle of the art of weapon making (Barring Rings) of Elvish weapon making.
  The Elves of Gondolin made weapons that were specifically designed to fight the armies of Morgoth , which included Cave Tolls.
  
  
• Sting is an Elvish blade - Kimi
  of the Elder Days. Later, Sting cuts Shelob's web when Sam's Numenorean blade fails.

• 1,000 years of piano lessons! - Beren11:11
  "the horror... the horror..."
• I think you've hit on something very significant... - Bullroarer
  One of the ways in which Tolkien makes his world so real is by this very device. Objects have properties that are never very clearly defined, and they seem to waver on the edge of being magical or not. There are very few things that are ACTUALLY magic -- the Rings and the Palantir being standouts. But there's tons of stuff that teeters on the edge, Sting (and all the Elven blades), mithril, waybread, elven rope, the Nazgul's steeds, Orthanc -- none of these things have "magic powers" in the Dungeons and Dragons sense, really, but they're all something more than real.

• IMHO The Arthur C. Clarkequote about Technology and Magic seems to apply here - Ron Austin
  It is incitefull here to note that Galadriel states that her skill is not Magic as Sam thinks of it.
• Oh, please share it! - Annael
  I don't know it.
• As I remember it.... - Jester_rm
  It goes like this...

• It is Clarke's Third Law - Blue Wizard
  His three laws are:

• Interesting point Kimi - Stumpy
  Their ropes, cloaks, boats and waybread etc. all seem to do more than what an ordinary item would be expected to do.
• Book II, Chapter 5. The battle in the Chamber of Mazarbul. - Annael
  Do you notice any difference in each person in the Fellowship and as a group as they face Orcs for the first time?
• Contrast this battle - Blue Wizard
  with the battle with the Wargs. Although the others are actively involved in that battle (Legolas in particular), it seems to be mostly Gandalf's doing. Here, plain old hacking and slashing, with no "magic" to speak of, is used in the battle (other than closing the doors)

• "A fire was smouldering in his brown eyes - Kimi
  that would have made Ted Sandyman step backwards, if he had seen it."

• Sam - Ophelia
  right. this really is the first time that Sam steps straight out and defends Frodo.
• Legolas - Binky
  I don't think he changed...but my perception of him changed (I'm speaking about the time I first read the book) He was saying things like 'I go to find the sun'...and was being described with..'"the storm troubled him little. He alone among all the company still remained light of heart"...I'm afraid I was getting the impression of a woodland creature who could endure much but didn't take things all that seriously. However my perception changed with the battle inside Moria. This woodland creature could be quite lighthearted at times...but also could be quite dangerous when he wanted to be :)

• I think thats a common perception - Jester_rm
  of the elves, but one I believe is VERY incorrect. I can see how most people have that impression though.

• Elves seem to be detached because - Ron Austin
  Their psychological makeup is geared to immortality this makes them rather hard to interest themselves about things that are rather transient to them.
• Very True... - HammerHead
  ...Binky. The first time I read LOTR (some 15 years ago), I didn't much care for Legolas. All the elves seemed "too earthy" to me.

• Book II, Chapter 5, The Bridge of Khazad-Dum. Tolkien halts for a while. - Annael
  In the foreword, Tolkien says of writing this part: ". . . I plodded on, mostly by night, until I stood by Balin's tomb in Moria. There I halted for a long time. It was almost a year later when I went on . . ."

• I think of Moria as a metaphor - Blue Wizard
  for Tolkien's dilemma as a writer at this point in the story. He, like Gandalf, knows his intended destination, but there are innumerable intricate paths and side-tunnels that one might take to arrive at the Eastern Gate. Many of those paths, like Moria itself, reach far into the past, even into the First Age and beyond. Which do you take, with no-one to guide you in the darkness?

• With the wisdom of hindsight... - Kimi
  I suppose it does move more quickly from this point. There're also a lot more battles.

• I don't think that neccessarily is cos of that - AlanPartridge
  I mean, they *had* to go to Minas Tirith, Fangorn and Lorien had been hinted at by the Old Forest and Old Man Willow and Galdor.
  I think it is really impossible to tell, though your point is fair - I mean when you write, rewrite, revise and re-revise things like changing style would be ironed out. The fact remains however that the world does suddenly grow when they step out into the the light of Dimrill Dale.
• Hi, AlanP! - Kimi
  Glad to see you weren't in that stadium disaster.
• Hello stranger , Back for a while? - Ron Austin

Lord of the Rings : Book 2, Chapter 6
Lothlorien
A Discussion Led by Patty

• Book II, Chapter 6 ...Lothlorien...This chapter.. - Patty
  finds the fellowship, minus Gandalf escaping from Moria. Some pause momentarily to view Durin's "crown" in the Mirrormere, and they move swiftly on.
  But Sam and Frodo can't keep up--they were slightly injured in battle. Aragorn heals them, and Frodo's lovely
  mithril coat is revealed and admired.
  The Fellowship journeys on to the eaves of Lorien, where they are intercepted by Haldir. Mistrust of the members of the fellowship is evident in the policies used to "welcome" them. During a difficult night spent sleeping in the trees Frodo is aware of "something" climbing the tree... The following morning the fellowship is told that Gimli must be blindfolded. Aragorn makes a leadership decision to blind everyone's eyes so as not to single out the dwarf. Warily, they procede.
  At last the companty comes to Cerin Amroth. New orders have reached Haldir and the company is allowed to walk blindfoldless.
  And what a sight they see. The beauty of Lothlorien is at last reveled to them, and Frodo,with a new kind of vision sees Aragorn as he was when he last was at Lothlorien with Arwen.

• Great discussion, Patty! Sorry I was late for it. - Kimi
• Nice job, Patty! - Eledhwen
  See you in Caras Galadhon!
• Great questions, Patty. Lookin' forward to next week. - Beren11:11
• Thank you, Patty. - GaladrielTX
  The chapters on Lothlorien are among my favorites, as well. Too bad I won't be around next week for your hosting of the next chapter. I'm sure it will be insightful.
• Book II, Chapter 6...Lothlorien...any final thoughts about this chapter... - Patty
  its purpose or anything else before tomorrow's summary?
• One thing I loved about this chapter . . . - Annael
  is how the influence of the Elves extended to the travelers. Frodo's response to the river Nimrodel and his delight in the tree are examples. Despite their fear and grief, the Fellowship feel the spell of the Lady at work. It's a nice change after Caradhras and Moria.

• Exactly. Remember how, in the Farmer Maggot, Bree, and Rivendell chapters... - Patty
  we mentioned that after a major upheaval there was usually a respite time, a time of comfort and healing? Lothlorien is serving as the safe haven after the horrors of Moria.

• Not JUST a respite . . . - Annael
  I'm talking about experiencing the way the Elves see the world for a moment. In Rivendell, Bilbo says he can't keep track of time there. The Fellowship experiences the same thing in Lothlorien. But also, just being there seems to enhance their awareness of and pleasure in the natural world. "The delight of the living tree itself," etc.
• Interlude in Lorien ... - Ron Austin
  allows the reader to catch his breath before the next intense passage.
• This chapter is a great example... - Beren11:11
  ...of what a delicate balance Tolkien strikes between presenting a world that can exist solely within the confines of LOTR's front and back covers, excluding even the appendices, and be completely satisfying in that regard, and yet offer so many trails down which those interested can dig deeper, and expand the context until it includes every facet of his collected works.

• Book II, Chapter 6..Lothlorien...Aragorn, lost in thought... - Patty
  at the end of this chapter Aragorn is perceived by Frodo as he once was standing in this same place with Arwen--another case of Frodo beginning to see that beyond what his eyes senses tell him. Also, it's interesting that, according to the chapter's end sentence, he never came there again. Even though the elves eventually left, he never came there again (as living man). Why do you think Tolkien included this passage?
• One of my favourite bits. - Eledhwen
  I always find this passage very moving. It fits nicely into the narrative. As Aragorn has just taken on the mantle of leader of the Fellowship, it fits that we should begin to learn a bit more about him from hereon in, and also it's Tolkien gently reminding us of Arwen and her meaning to Aragorn. In addition, it lets us have a very tiny glimpse of the larger history and the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. If Aragorn didn't think of her on Cerin Amroth, the place where they plighted their troth, something would be strange. It's a bittersweet moment of light in the darkness of Gandalf's fall, the Orcs in Lorien, the argument about the blindfolds, the footsteps and glimpses of Gollum ... and provides one more brick in the growing wall of Aragorn's character.
• This is one of the most intriguing passages in the book - Blue Wizard
  Frodo is seeing Aragorn some 30 years earlier, when he re-meets Arwen in Lorien after his adventures in disguise in Gondor and Rohan, and they pledge their troth on Cerin Amroth.

• It is a wonderfully mystical passage. - Kimi
  There's certainly something deeper going on than Aragorn's innate nobility showing through; the fact that to Frodo's eyes Aragorn appears to be clothed in white echoes the part of "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" where Galadriel "bade him cast aside his wayworn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and white". He also appears as "a young lord tall and fair"; obviously taking on his youthful 49-year-old appearance.

• Interesting. I never thought of it as supernatural, though. - Beren11:11
  ...I always took it as Frodo catching a glimpse of Aragorn "liberated" from his Strider persona and glowing with the majesty that he really bears. And only in Lothlorien is it safe for him to exist "revealed," even for a moment, and is it inspiring, based on his history with Arwen, etc., for him to be so.
• I always thought of that last sentence... - Malbeth
  as a 'false trail' laid by the author. We have recently been stunned by Gandalf's death, and I always figured JRRT wanted to plant the idea in the reader's mind that perhaps Aragorn might be also be killed. It does sound pretty ominous. But now I'm not so sure, Blue, your interpretation sounds pretty good. Hmmm.
• Yes! I clearly remember... - Caleniel
  ...when I read this sentence my first time reading the triology. I actually threw the book on the floor and sulked for several hours before reading on (well, I was 14). I was so sure Tolkien was going to kill _another_ of my favorite characters.

• It worked that way with me - VLT
  when I first read LOTR I was convinced that Aragorn is going to die. It was weird since he was one of major characters but Gandalf just died on Moria so it didn´t seem impossible.
• That's a good point. - Blue Wizard
  It's so hard, after being so familiar with these stories, to "forget" everything that comes after. You're absolutely right - there is a strong implication from the statement that Aragorn will be killed in the story. I think that at least part of what Tolkien is trying to do here is, and with the other real or apparent deaths is to set the reader up for the idea that everybody would die in completing this quest.
• Book II, Chapter 6....Lothlorien...Compare Lorien to a - Patty
  Rivendell, as to similarities of purpose and living styles. From the Silmarillion we learned of other Elven realms--do any of these resemble the two that are in LOTR? Just for fun, in which would you rather live, if in either?
• Going with the crowd here - Kimi
  I'd love to visit Lórien; maybe stay for weeks on end. But I would always feel an outsider there. Rivendell seems a place that could become home for a human. And that library!
• Well... - Pteppic
  As many people have stated, Rivendell is more open towards strangers (more cosmopolitan) than Lorien. Ther're no guards ready to shoot you on sight if you get close to Rivendell (although it's highly unlikely you'll get to Rivendell unseen). The most obvious they have in common is the feeling that time stands still, the mark of having a ring-bearing ruler.

• A couple of differences... - Beren11:11
  ...I think are:

• I'd have to say that Doriath resembles Lorien - Malbeth
  Both are insulated from the outside world, both are ruled by a king and queen who are of a different origin than most of the population, in both cases the queen is a more powerful individual than the king. Comparisons to Rivendell - nothing comes to mind.
• Comparisons to other realms - Blue Wizard
  Menegroth in Doriath is more like Thranduil's halls in Mirkwood, though vastly larger, than either Rivendell or Lorien, being underground in caves.

• LOL! - Annael
  That last was also a factor with me! Even READING about the climb up the big tree had me hyperventilating!
• You must get the same question that I do... - Blue Wizard
  If you're afraid of heights, how can you ski?

• I love the new high-speed quad chairs - Annael
  They get you there so much faster and you never have that experience of having the chairlift stop because SOME IDIOT fell down getting off the chair, and having the chair you're in swing wildly from side to side or bob sickeningly up and down.

• Me too! - Blue Wizard
  Movies with gondola scenes. Ooh, I'm getting queasy just thinking about them

• No - "Where Eagles Dare" - Annael
  they take out a mountaintop lair of Nazis but the only way down is the gondola and of course not all the Nazis are dead yet . . .
• I would also choose Rivendell - Malbeth
  For the same reason as Patty - there's something for everyone there, it's not just a place for elves. An occasional Dwarf might be visiting, and the Dunedain would be regular visitors. Lorien's just a little too isolated.
• Definitely Rivendell. - Annael
  It strikes me as a sort of mountain lodge, while Lothlorien sounds like summer camp, sleeping out in tents and tree houses. I love mountain lodges, big fireplaces, cozy nooks where you can curl up and watch the snow falling outside. And I prefer conifers. Give me a Ponderosa pine over a mallorn any day. Plus I agree with Patty on the "cosmopolitan" feel of Rivendell. Lothlorien seems far too insular. Perhaps Galadriel and Celeborn picked up too much of Melian and Thingol's suspicion of strangers. Elrond the Half-Elven would be a much better host.
• The only thing is, as Rivendell was... - Patty
  established as a "fortress" I'd rather be there at war time than Lorien, for sure. I'd feel more protected.
• Myself, I'd choose Rivendell....it's more.. - Patty
  cosmopoliton, with different races coming and going. The sameness of Lorien might get old after a few thousand years. Besides, Celeborn is more of a drag than Elrond.
• It seems that in Rivendell ... - Binky
  people were always coming and going. If you stayed there long enough the world would come to you!! :) You could probably find out what was going on everywhere in Middle Earth without leaving the Hall of Fire...whereas in Lorien everyone was shut out...and you only heard rumours of what was going on in the outside world.
  Having said all that...I would like to visit Lorien...but I don't think I would want to stay there for eons of time...

• Book II, Chapter 6 ...Lothlorien... Haldir's prophecy... - Patty
  " For the elves, I fear, it will prove at best a truce, in which they may pass to the sea unhindered and leave Middle-earth for ever...."
  This is also Elrond's belief, and Galadriel's based on knowledge of ring-lore. But Haldir doesn't seem so well-placed--is it that all the elves are aware of the 3 rings and where they are and what they do?
• You have to put this in proper context - Blue Wizard
  Haldir doesn't say anything at all about the ring. He says that some among his people believe that the Shadow will withdraw...but he believes that this would only be a short respite, during which the elves can depart Middle Earth for good in peace. Nothing in his statement indicates any knowledge about Galadriel's ring.
• Not exactly. - Annael
  I suspect that those Elves who were Quendi and who were in the households of the Three Ringbearers (before Cirdan gave his to Gandalf) were more aware that their time in Middle-earth was running out than the Moriquendi. They all knew that was going to happen, but I think the Moriquendi were less concerned yet about it - perhaps not as subject to the feeling of "fading"? Celeborn does not leave with Galadriel, but stays on for many years. Haldir is some sort of captain in Galadriel's household, perhaps Noldor. So maybe he knows he will feel it more when the Rings fade. Legolas, a Silvan Elf, strikes me as much more light-hearted about it all. It's not until he sees the sea for the first time that he begins to dream of going over sea. But that has nothing to do with the Rings.
• That pesky Elvish nomenclature - Kimi
  Quendi means all Elves. The "Elves of the Light" are Calaquendi.

• And yet... - Beren11:11
  ...their sense of that doom of "fading" does seem to overshadow (or possibly "underscore" would be a better choice of words) the majesty of so many of their sayings and doings. I don't attribute this to knowledge of the 3 Rings, but perhaps, since the "fading" had really begun some time before the War of the Ring, perhaps it's just something that they can all sense, or all will, each in due time.
• Book II, Chapter 6...Lothlorien...How important is the role... - Patty
  of Haldir in this chapter? We know that he has been cast for the movie- but do you think that time will be taken up in the movie to do the blindfolding scene, the rope walk across the river etc. that our leader into Lothlorien does?
• Well, we know he'll have a speaking role - Kimi
  But that's about all we know for sure.

• Really very minor. - Eledhwen
  In the grand scale of things, I mean. He does introduce the Fellowship to Lorien and its special way of being and thinking, but aside from that, he could be replaced by any other Elf, or written out, without too many major changes. I like Haldir, but he's not THAT vital.
• If the scene from the trailer - Blue Wizard
  showing the Fellowship running headlong through a forest is supposed to be in Lorien, with the orcs in hot pursuit from Moria, then I'm inclined to think that these scenes are out. It would be a nice cinematic moment to suddenly see Cerin Amroth as the blindfolds come off, but there are other ways to do that as well - emerging from deep forest into a clearing.
• i doubt it... - Ophelia
  I think that scene is probably from... the Breaking of the Fellowship. The entrance to Lorien should be slower and much more dramatic, even if these two scenes are left out- to have the fellowship rushing into a majestic place such as Lorien would somewhat ruin the majesty.
• I have to side with Blue on this one..... - Dubhdarra
  I believe that E online reported the filming of these scenes a couple of months ago. From what they report, the orcs are right on the fellowships tail as they reach Lorien and are greeted by a flurry of Elf arrows. I think this is how they are going to introduce Haldir. This however does't preclude the blindfolding and rope crossing scenes, it just changes context a little. Sorry for the Movie Discussion....
  Alas, I agree that the aforementioned scenes, well the blindfolding of the fellowship anyway, are important to the continuing growth of the fellowship ( especially Gimli and Legolas) and Aragorn's leadership settling the dispute. But I have to agree with Eledwens post above... Haldir himself isn't that vital.

• I don't know that either scene will take much time. - Nenya
  And I think that establishing the lack of trust in the beginning, as well as the unified front that Legolas displays with the rest of the Fellowship are important points in establishing the relationships developing in the Fellowship. As for the rope walk across the river - that can be approached as a five second visual thing without much explanation and will probably be included if the budget allows for it. Spectacular scenery always works well as a set-up in movies.
• I hope that both scenes are there - Malbeth
  But for different reasons. The 'rope trick' won't take much time; you don't need to show each one crossing the river, maybe just show one struggling across and cut to all of them on the other side, but showing Haldir gracefully running across would reinforce what we saw with Legolas running on top of the snow: elves have some physical abilities that men don't.

• I agree, Malbeth. ..I think this is the beginning of the turning point - Patty
  in the relationship between Gimli and Legolas, which is strengthened when Gimli so obviously is impressed with Galadriel in the next chapter. I hope a way is found to do the whole scene with minimal changes from the book.
• Good question... - Groovicles
  but i would say its very important. I mean think about this, all the scenes involving Haldir are significant i developing the characters. Aragorn being as even and equal as ever in the group, and showing how Dwarves are stubborn, but for good causes, and even see now Elves themselfs are stubborn in their own ways. of course those are only very general examples, i don't think i have enough time to tell them all

• I hope they show in the movies - Binky
  how the animosity between Legolas and Gimli really came to a head at this point..."A plague on dwarves and their stiff necks!" I can see them squaring off in front of Aragorn...and Aragorn attempting to make peace with the compromise...

• Oh definitally... - Groovicles
  they'll show it. its a very powerful scene in the story, its just that they'll definitally word it differently to be a little more modern. of course if they don't then the movie will just suck ass :(

• Book II, Chapter 6...Lothlorien..."in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord... - Patty
  more clearly shown than in the pants (er sorry, wrong board!)estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him."

• I think that perhaps there's a difference between - Kimi
  the "aloofness" of the Elves, especially the remaining High Elves, and the suspicion of other peoples that Haldir is referring to in that remark. Haldir is talking, IMHO, of the perils of war; of spies and treachery and danger. Think of the (false) rumours that have been spread about Rohan, claiming that they pay tribute of horses to Mordor. The "distance" of (e.g.) Gildor reflects the slow estrangement of the Elves from Middle-earth itself.
• I think the Elves have learned a thing or two. - Inferno
  If you think about it, the Elves in the First Age, basically dominated the show. The leaders of Men were vassals of the Elf Kings. Even in the Second Age, the Elves took an active role in the defence of Middle-Earth.

• wouldn't travelling about with Gildro... - Binky
  just draw more more attention to the hobbits than needed? The dark riders could sense the elves...and stay far enough away not to confront them.. but still stay close enough to track them after a fashion...???? And the hobbits had need of help from other mortals (Farmer maggot...fatty Bolger)...would they have been so quick to help if the hobbits showed up in the company of elves?????

• Gildor... - HammerHead
  I think Gildor gets a bad rep. Let's examine this.

• very good point, HH! - Patty
• No - Malbeth
  It may be a mitigating factor, it may help explain it, but it doesn't excuse bad behavior. But other races show the same characteristics. Elves may be a bit arrogant (understatement?), but so are the men of Gondor. Elves are isolationists, but so are hobbits.
• Another good point, Malbeth. The other races... - Patty
  are isolationists, too, I guess it just sticks out more with the elves because these are the beings from whom help is obviously needed and who obviously have an available kind of "magic" and when they don't go all out to help it seems like more of a betrayal.
• You're right, Patty - Malbeth
  We expect more from elves than from other races, and I think we should. They were given some amazing gifts by Iluvatar, and should be held to a high standard. Of course, it's also easy to look at them as some kind of angelic beings, like Sam does, and therefore be disappointed when they're only 'human'. Of course, reading the Silmarillion is a quick cure for that problem!
• Too true. The Sil is such a good book...imagine... - Patty
  how good it would have been had Tolkien finished it? No offense to Chris Tolkien, but the styles are different, and it was left mostly in narrative form when, possibly, if he'd had more time it would have been more dramatized as LOTR was. But it's still a great read.
• Going back to Beleriand... - Beren11:11
  ...we can see just how old this mistrust is. Morgoth and Sauron managed to get their spies sewing dissent everywhere, and by the time of the Third Age, things are damned dangerous around ME! (Middle Earth, not "me," though things are pretty sketchy 'round here, too...)

• I don't know... - Pteppic
  ...about this stand-offishness with the Elves. I guess you could say they're stand-offish in the fact that they don't volunteer to help, and they go on about how insignificant the matters of Men and other races (or should that be species?) are to them, but they always help the ones who seek them out, as far as I can see. I think, like Groovicles, that Gildor gave Frodo and his friends as much as he could (they got food and drink) and told him as much as he dared. Elrond helped them too, and Galadriel more or less showered the Fellowship with gifts and magical cloaks and rope. Elves are suspicious of strangers however (they know the enemy, and that he comes in many apperances), and especially the Lorien Elves, as they're located between Moria and Dol Guldur. As for the their behaviour towards the Fellowship, anyone would be suspicious of a group emerging from Moria, which by now has a rather astounding Orc population. What I'm saying is that Sauron's estranging of the peoples of ME just increases an already existing attitude with the Lorien Elves (especially). Other Elves also became more suspicious and protective, but the Lorians had a better foundation.
• True, but then, because of Elrond's sons... - Patty
  all Lorien should have been expecting them..at least they would recognize Legolas and Aragorn and trust that the rest were veted by Elrond and the council. I think it's Celeborn's fault.
• This raises another point. - Inferno
  I don't know if you're planning to talk about Celeborn later, but this issue of the blindfolding of Gimli shows that Celeborn really is a leader in Lothlorien. If Galadriel ran the show entirely, she would have sent word ahead to allow the Fellowship to pass unhindered. Although Galadriel dwelt in Doriath, and was kin to Thingol, she didn't hold the same grudges that many of the Sindar held in regards to the Dwarves. I presume she had much interaction with them in Hollin during her time there. Durin's folk in particular were always more friendly with Elves than many of the others, and Gimli comes from that line. Moreover, after the battle of Five Armies, the Dwarves of Erebor made peace with the Elves of Mirkwood, and tended to profit from traffic with one another.

• Hmmmm - Groovicles
  Well first of all i think that Gildor left more aid to the hobbits then is actually written. I mean look at it, they got food for one thing, but also some very good advise, and the knowledge that their journy is known to friendly ears (also not so friendly but we really can't help that now can we). In terms of the quote being an excuse, i'm not even sure if it is talking about Elves as isolationists, though in a way it is now that i think about it. I don't think refusing to help the weaker people can ever be excused, for no matter what reason. If the Elves weren't isolationists for whatever reasons they had, many more of the people's of middle earth would be safer and certainly happier then they really are.

• Book II, Chapter 6...Lothlorien..Blindfolding Gimli... - Patty
  Is this a solution to which you would have agreed? If you were Aragorn, how would you have dealt with this problem?
• I wonder about Boromir's feelings at this point - Kimi
  Remember how reluctant he was to enter Lórien at all? And now he has to submit to being blindfolded, along with his companions! Wouldn't he have feared a knife at his throat at this point?
• Aragorn was right - Kimi
  As Malbeth says, insisting on arguing and having messages sent on ahead would've meant delays. I think Nenya's suggestion is very smart, though two small comments about it:

• One more thing: this incident shows once again - Kimi
  the humility of Aragorn. He has no problem with submitting to being blind-folded.
• I hadn't thought of that point Kimi, but of course.. - Patty
  you're right, this does bring out the humility of Aragorn. I like that man!
• I have mixed feelings about the solution. - Nenya
  What were the alternatives, though? Leave Gimli behind? Since the Fellowship was to be a "United Nations" sort of compact, with all the races represented, this was not an option. have Gimli be the only one blindfolded? Again, not an option. It was important that all in the Fellowship be perceived as equals, or there was no point in having all the races represented.

• Yeah, I like that... - Beren11:11
  "Aragon... should have insisted that if Gimli were to be blindfolded, he too should be blindfolded."

• I like Aragorn's solution... - Beren11:11
  There's obviously no arguing with the rule of the Elves, but having everyone blindfold themselves, including himself and Legolas, makes the law seem downright silly in its "guilty untli proven innocent" attitude and unwillingness to bend according to the situation. I mean -- shouldn't Aragorn's vouching for Gimli count for something?

• If I were Aragorn - Malbeth
  I would have refused to go along with treating Gimli as the enemy. I would have pointed out the I was well known in this land and had the favor of the Lady, and if I say he's OK, then trust me. Big argument, delays, etc. Aragorn, being smarter than me, made a better choice. Blindfolding all of them get them on their way, pointed out the folly of the situation (esepcially to Legolas), and showed that they were all in this together.
• Book II, Chapter 6..Lothlorien...Do you think it exactly fair... - Patty
  to blame the dwarves for awakening an evil that was already present? What does that make you think of elven "wisdom" ? Also, making Legolas answer for the men and the dwarves as they overnighted just inside Lorien? (don't throw stones at Celeborn just yet, the time will come!)
• Well lets see - Groovicles
  Elves don't like Dwarves very much in the first place, and they are also emotional, so they can feel happiness (maybe too much) sadness, regret, fear, hate and whatnot. They would blame the Dwarves for something just like one nationality would blame another nationality with no real proof its their fault but say so just because it happened in their land.

• Not exactly fair (or just, for that matter) - Pteppic
  Personally I think it's ridiculous to point fingers at the Dwarves and shout "They did it!". I mean what were they supposed to do when they found an ore of mithril, say "Oh no, we can't mine that, the unspeakable horrors of the Enemy could be lurking at the roots of the mountains"? I seriously doubt if it was a common fear among the dwarves that they would uncover one of Morgoth's monsters if they dug too deep (correct me if I'm wrong). In other words, there was, as far as I know, no way the Dwarves could have known, and therefore they cannot be blamed. The Elves just want to blame someone. I think it's also important to remember that the Moriquendi weren't as wise as the ones who did see the light of the Two Trees (and they weren't all that wise - can you say Thingol, boys and girls? :). Galadriel, for instance, isn't quite as quick to put the Dwarves to blame. I think this shows that the Elves are "Human" after all, they can make mistakes. Oh, sure, we know they can, but first-time readers may not have seen the Elves' faults.
• Re:Dwarves - dudalb
  Besides, Tokien says in Unfinshed tales flat out that Celeborn did have a strong prejudice against dwarves....
• Well...one with a prejudice has left the path of wisdom...if I may paraphrase. - Patty
• Elven wisdom - Annael
  is like Elven magic, I suspect. They appear wiser because they have a lot more perspective. Talk about "been there, done that"! I don't know that they are any more intelligent or have more foresight than Men. Just a whole lot more years of living under their belts. In Galadriel's case, tens of thousands of years. But as we see with Celeborn, that doesn't necessarily translate to always knowing the right thing to say or do.
• Pride. - Eledhwen
  The downfall of Feanor was pride, and it shows here. Celeborn (and Elves in general) is rather too proud and will not admit his race's culpability in this affair. Galadriel is less proud and more willing to face reality than most.
• Blaming the dwarves for following the mithril vein - Stumpy
  is like blaming a cat for chasing a mouse. They can't go against their nature.
• Can they control their greed though???? - Binky
  They must dig and mine...that's what they do...but is greed an innate part of them...are they at the mercy of their genes...or is it a weakness they can control if they put forth the needed effort? Perhaps the elves thought that part of them could have been controlled...but they let greed get the best of them.

• The dwarves were created and taught - Stumpy
  by Aule, their love of working with the materials of the earth, and creating beautiful things with them, is in their very nature.
• going against nature - Beren11:11
  It's true that it's "what they do," but so much of the conflict in the whole saga, from the Music of the Ainur to the end of the War of the Rings is precipitated by people (and I use the term losely) overstepping their bounds. Illuvatar grants everything free will, but he/it won't, ultimately, allow transgression beyond a certain point.

• not blamed exactly... - Aiya
  I don't think the dwarves should be blamed exactly- they are most at fault- but any one (even elves) would have done the same- they just had the misfortune to be the ones in Moria at the wrong time

• Actually, "just" is the word I want, not fair. - Patty
• TOO deep - Beren11:11
  I think the implication is that the Dwarves delved TOO deep, in the sort of literary/mythological classic "over-reacher" archetype -- Ahab and Moby Dick, Icarus and Dedalus, Prometeus, etc. When those who are less than gods go up against the forces of nature, and in their hubris, or whatever, think they can master it, they're usually checked somehow.

• Book II, Chapter 6...Lothlorien...From any additional sources... - Patty
  From Amroth to Galadriel and Celeborn..do we know what other rulers Lothlorien had, if any, and how was it that G and C became the rulers?
• According to the Encyclopedia of Arda - Blue Wizard
  There are a number of confusing and inconsistent references to Amroth, the last King of Lorien. One source lists his father as Amdir, who served as King of Lorien through the Second Age, and is killed at the Battle of Dagorland. But, apparently there is one source which post-dates LOTR which lists Celeborn and Galadriel as the parents of Amroth, and the last King prior to Amroth as someone named Malgalad, suffering the same fate. According to CRRT, this idea was considered, but later rejected by JRRT.
• G & C & Lorien - Beren11:11
  O.k., I'm reaching way back here, but the Unfinished Tales tells the story. I think Galadriel left Eregion when Celebrimbor allowed Sauron in? Does this sound right so far? Stop me if I go astray... She passed through Moria with a few others, and took up residence in what became Lorien. I think Celeborn did not go with her but met them there later, though I can't remember why.
• UnFinished Tales... - dudalb
  Unfinished does indeed contain the material on Galadrial and Celeborn in a chapter called that....Celeborn might not have gone with Gladdy through Moria because Celeborn did not like dwarves, and, being A Noldi, Galdarial felt a kinship for the dwarves....
• Book II, Chapter 6...Lothlorien..."the virtue of the elves"... - Patty
  Here is one of the more subtle hints of elven "magic". Aragorn hopes that though the company is not yet into Lothlorien the "virtue of the elves" will keep them safe from the pursuing orcs. There are other instances here and further into the chapter. Often discussed question--what are your thoughts about elven magic?
• Don't forget that Galadriel was a student of Melian the Maia and dwelt in Doriath for a time... - Ron Austin
  I do not think that Galadriel could ward Lothlorien in quite the same way as the Girdle of Melian warded Doriath. I think that there is some spell to keep out the Orcs as well as Sauron's scrying.
• I've been reading the Sil concurrently with LOTR this time, - GaladrielTX
  and I, too, wondered if a power surrounded Lorien similar to the Girdle of Melian, but to a lesser degree. I wonder what else Galadriel learned from Melian. One thing that comes to mind is the making of lembas, a skill which was only practiced by queens of the Eldar.
• Magic. - Eledhwen
  What I think is stopping the Orcs is the same innate fear of Elves which we see in Shagrat and Gorbag and their patrols in Cirith Ungol. The very mention of an Elf warrior scares the life out of most Orcs.

• Fear. - Annael
  I agree with Eledhwen. I think it far more likely that the Orcs stayed away from Lothlorien because of what we next see happen - if Orcs invade that area, none return. Not magic, just exceptional archery thanks to thousands of years of practice.