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Arwen's daughter
Gondolin
Apr 16 2009, 5:16am
Post #1 of 31
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**Over Hill and Under Hill** - Part 4: And now for the goblin musical number.
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The crack closes up with a snap (great onomatopoeia there!) and our little band of weary travelers is in the goblins’ lair now with Gandalf no where to be seen! They move through dark passages, which the goblins know “as well as you do to the nearest post-office.”
Does the post-office simile work for you in the story?
How well do you know the way to the nearest post-office? How well did you know the way as a child?
With a glimmer of light ahead, the goblins begin to sing.
What do you think of the goblins’ song?
Is it better/worse/more ridiculous/etc. than the songs that have come before?
Is it significant that the song only comes along with the light at the end of the tunnel?
The goblins take out whips and some of the dwarves are now yammering and bleating, with poor Bilbo in the rear, closest to the whips.
Why doesn’t Tolkien specify which of the dwarves are crying out? Why doesn’t he mention Bilbo in here, as well? Is he staying quiet?
Why is Bilbo at the end of the line?
Their belongings are being stolen by the goblins and we are told that goblins eat ponies. However, “the prisoners were only thinking of themselves.”
If no one is thinking about the ponies, why are we told about them?
Do goblins not eat dwarves and hobbits?
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sador
Gondolin
Apr 16 2009, 1:29pm
Post #2 of 31
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A few answers, some to the point
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They move through dark passages, which the goblins know “as well as you do to the nearest post-office.”
Does the post-office simile work for you in the story?
It's nice and amusing.
How well do you know the way to the nearest post-office? How well did you know the way as a child?
I remember at which age I first did. But the post-office was quite far.
My kids probably know the post-office well, as it is near home and on the way to their kindergarten (they are also more intelligent than I am, or was).
What do you think of the goblins’ song?
Love it!
Is it better/worse/more ridiculous/etc. than the songs that have come before?
It's the most fun of them all! The only one which can compare is the wood-elves rafters'.
Is it significant that the song only comes along with the light at the end of the tunnel?
I never noticed that before; thanks!
The goblins' song in 'Out of the Frying-pan into the Fire' also ends with the kindling of the nearest tree.
Why doesn’t Tolkien specify which of the dwarves are crying out?
Decency.
Why doesn’t he mention Bilbo in here, as well? Is he staying quiet?
I always understood Bilbo was one of those yammering and bleating.
Although it is interesting that this is the second time the dwarves are compared to sheep - in 'Roast Mutton', and there is a nice contrast in 'Queer Lodgings' as well, when the eagles are afraid that if they carry the dwarves to the dwellings of Men, Men will think they want to carry away their sheep!
Bilbo is often compared to a rabbit. What kind of noise do rabbits in pain make?
Why is Bilbo at the end of the line?
Smaller, and slower in tunnels.
If no one is thinking about the ponies, why are we told about them?
We're not prisoners! We can afford to care about them.
Do goblins not eat dwarves and hobbits?
They will work the dwarves as slaves, and eat them only when overworked (or better still, trade them for new slaves with trolls).
They might eat Bilbo, of course; he wouldn't make a great slave in the mines, and he's very fat and tender.
"In fact I should like to know all about you. Not that it will do you much good" - the Great Goblin
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 16 2009, 2:55pm
Post #3 of 31
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…as a company … was returning from a long tedious march through swamps and rough country, a chant broke the stillness of the night. Upon investigation, it was found that a Negro soldier by the name of Willie Duckworth, on detached service with the Provisional Training Center, was chanting to build up the spirits of his comrades.
It was not long before the infectious rhythm was spreading throughout the ranks. Footweary soldiers started to pick up their step in cadence with the growing chorus of hearty male voices. Instead of a down trodden, fatigued company, here marched 200 soldiers with heads up, a spring to their step, and smiles on their faces. This transformation occurred with the beginning of the Duckworth Chant.
Upon returning to Fort Slocum, Pvt. Duckworth, with the aid of Provisional Training Center instructors, composed a series of verses and choruses to be used with the marching cadence. After that eventful evening the Duckworth Chant was made a part of the drill at Fort Slocum as it proved to be not only a tremendous morale factor while marching, but also coordinated the movements of close order drill with troop precision.
- Bernard Lentz, The Cadence System of Teaching Close Order Drill and Exhibition Drills.
“Do Wah Diddy Diddy Dum Diddy Do”
-John Winger, Stripes (1981)
The crack closes up with a snap (great onomatopoeia there!) and our little band of weary travelers is in the goblins’ lair now with Gandalf no where to be seen! They move through dark passages, which the goblins know “as well as you do to the nearest post-office.”
Does the post-office simile work for you in the story?
It makes my heart smile. That works for me.
I remember going to the post office with my father. It was a huge cavernous place, with marble floors and high vaulted ceilings. There were strange mysterious sounds echoing from the sorting area behind the wall filled with numbered brass PO boxes. I defintiely remember the echoes of my footsteps, Dad's footsteps, and virtually any other noise.
Come to think of it, pretty much exactly what a goblin cave would be. Except for the darkness.
How well do you know the way to the nearest post-office?
It used to be just 4 houses down and across the street. Then they closed it. Now the nearest one is a mile away, but if you want mail stamped ASAP you want to go to the main office on the edge of town.
How well did you know the way as a child?
You get into the car with Dad, he drives, he parallel parks (always in one try!), Dad lets me pay the meter, we walk up the marble steps, go through the heavy brass doors, and there we are!
With a glimmer of light ahead, the goblins begin to sing.
What do you think of the goblins’ song?
Wonderful! Suits them well. Lots of onomatopoeia. One would suspect the same would be true of goblinese.
Is it better/worse/more ridiculous/etc. than the songs that have come before?
Again, it seems to suit them and their present purpose. It’s a marching song, or chant. I bet they have different songs for going uphill versus going downhill.
Is it significant that the song only comes along with the light at the end of the tunnel?
It’s like how most groups of marching soldiers will perk up once their destination is in sight, dress the lines, and smartly double time into camp singing strong and loud, as if saying "Hey, a 20 mile march ain’t nothin’ to *this* outfit!”
The goblins take out whips and some of the dwarves are now yammering and bleating, with poor Bilbo in the rear, closest to the whips.
Why doesn’t Tolkien specify which of the dwarves are crying out?
To protect their reputations.
Why doesn’t he mention Bilbo in here, as well? Is he staying quiet?
He’s probably breathless from running.
Why is Bilbo at the end of the line?
He’s slowest.
Their belongings are being stolen by the goblins and we are told that goblins eat ponies. However, “the prisoners were only thinking of themselves.”
If no one is thinking about the ponies, why are we told about them?
It foreshadows Beorn, and helps the reader understand his reluctance to lend ponies to the Company.
Do goblins not eat dwarves and hobbits?
"Goblin: A powerful, vicious brute. Has jaws like a steel trap. Has ravenous appetite. Eats aardvarks, armadillos, bears, boars, cats, rats, bats, dogs, hogs, shoats, stoats, goats, old shoes, old gnus, tigers, lions, elephants, buffaloes, donkeys, giraffes, octopuses, rhinoceroses, and moose."
-Field Guide to Creatures of the Misty Mountains, page 1.
“Ponies, dwarves, AND ESPECIALLY HOBBITS.”
Ibid, page 2.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
Apr 16 2009, 5:42pm
Post #4 of 31
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How well do you know the way to the nearest post-office? How well did you know the way as a child?
Oh, very well. The one from my childhood was at the same intersection as a convenience store I used walk to, to buy candy.
What do you think of the goblins’ song?
It’s a fun children’s song. A friend of mine directed a community theatre production of The Hobbit a few years back. The little goblins stole the show.
Why is Bilbo at the end of the line?
Same reason they put the Norfolk and Norwich terriers at the end of the line of dogs in the terrier group at dog shows. Their little legs make it hard for them to keep up, and they would slow down the Airedales and other big dogs at the front of the line.
If no one is thinking about the ponies, why are we told about them?
Scratch my comment from yesterday about the mention of the ponies in the cave being the last we hear of them. I guess we do here, too.
Do goblins not eat dwarves and hobbits?
Today’s featured ingredient on Iron Chef is….
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 16 2009, 9:18pm
Post #5 of 31
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I imagine that dwarves are tougher than hobbits, and requiire long, slow cooking to break down all of the gristle, but when done right can become tender and tasty indeed. Hobbits are quite rich, and not for every palate, but quite a delicacy for those who can indulge shamelessly in a few extra calories. Conveniently, rich foods should come in smaller servings, and the size of hobbits suits this requirement perfectly.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 16 2009, 11:13pm
Post #6 of 31
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I'm not even going to go there.//
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 16 2009, 11:40pm
Post #7 of 31
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The crack closes up with a snap (great onomatopoeia there!) and our little band of weary travelers is in the goblins’ lair now with Gandalf no where to be seen! They move through dark passages, which the goblins know “as well as you do to the nearest post-office.”
Does the post-office simile work for you in the story?
It's different from LotR, because we are a long way from the Shire, but still talking about the mail. It's also dated, since email has become more important than snail mail in the modern era. That wouldn't matter if we were talking about the land of the hobbits, which seems like an English village from the 19th century, transported to Fairie. But here the narrator is talking directly to the reader, and yet it is evident that the narrator comes from a time when everyone -- even children -- knew the way to the nearest post office -- indeed, the narrator comes from a time and place more like Bilbo's than like ours. Yet the narrator is not a part of Fairie, as Bilbo is.
How well do you know the way to the nearest post-office?
Pretty well, actually. But only because we send packages on Christmas, and my wife mass mails invitations for the events she organizes at work. Also because I pass it on the way to the train. I don't drop off personal letters of my own there.
How well did you know the way as a child?
I probably couldn't have walked there, because it was too far and I didn't pay attention to how we got there in the car. But we did stop there frequently because my mother, like Tolkien, grew up in the era of frequent personal letters. She still hasn't really adapted to email.
What do you think of the goblins’ song?
It works in The Hobbit, alongside the songs of the dwarves and elves; it wouldn't work in LotR.
Is it better/worse/more ridiculous/etc. than the songs that have come before?
It has a nasty side to it, well beyond the mere teasing we saw in previous songs of dwarves and elves. Yet the very fact that the goblins sing lightens the mood a bit, and makes it seem very unlikely that the party will remain in captivity. So, by the way, do the mournful comments about never seeing the ponies again -- as hard as it is on the ponies, those comments imply that the party itself will escape, minus their ponies.
I like the song. It has great sound effects, and a good rhythm, and it doesn't go on too long. I would put it above the elves' "tra-la-lally," and on a par with the dwarves' "break the plates."
Is it significant that the song only comes along with the light at the end of the tunnel?
If so, I'm missing the significance.
I'll continue this another time.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Apr 17 2009, 12:44am
Post #8 of 31
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The post office simile works for me. I imagine a father or grandfather telling this story to relatively modern children, and he's showing how familiar the goblins are with their surroundings. Our nearest post office is about half a mile away, and easy to walk to. I have to admit that as a small child I wouldn't have known the way, not until I was a young teen.
I love the goblins' song. I sing it a lot when I'm hiking, coming down, down, down the trail. Or down into a goblin town in my own neighborhood.
I think we're told about the ponies because the narrator and his audience might be thinking of them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Apr 17 2009, 12:48am)
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weaver
Gondolin
Apr 17 2009, 4:23am
Post #9 of 31
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interesting mix of stuff in this part...
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- Post office references...
- Goblin songs...
- Whips...
- Ponies that get eaten...
The everyday reference and the comic kind of song in the first and second items provide a pretty good balance to the darker side of things we get in items three and four.
Intended or not, this kind of balance works pretty well -- Tolkien doesn't shy away from presenting some tough stuff to kids, but he gives them something lighter in tone to soften it...sort of like giving a kid a piece of candy after some bad tasting medicine, I guess!
Weaver
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Earl
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Apr 17 2009, 7:19am
Post #10 of 31
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... that was just precious 
Crows and Gibbets! What is the House of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek and their brats roll around on the floor with the dogs? You are but a lesser son of greater sires!
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Earl
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Apr 17 2009, 7:28am
Post #11 of 31
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I'm in love with Goblin Town...
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... both the poem and the place  I love it when people can find magic in the mundane and your perfect little poem about Goblin Town is simply beautiful. I'm so glad you wrote it because I got to read it and it made me smile 
Crows and Gibbets! What is the House of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek and their brats roll around on the floor with the dogs? You are but a lesser son of greater sires!
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Earl
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Apr 17 2009, 7:32am
Post #12 of 31
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Candy and bad tasting medicine :)
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I remember when I was little how I'd make my mother keep a spoonful of sugar in one hand while she fed me a tablespoon of the awful Crocin syrup, that looked frighteningly red, and tasted even worse. It would hardly get past my throat when I'd grab her other hand to get at the sugar. It was the only saving grace 
When I grew to the age of "learning" to swallow pills, I actually missed the Crocin syrup, because more often than not, the round white Crocin tablet would go down side-aways and leave a sensation of being lodged in my throat... something not even sugar could do away with 
I still miss Crocin syrup and Gripewater (it was sweet, always made stomach pains go away, and that was the one "medicine" I made sure was always in the house... I used to call it Gypu) 
Crows and Gibbets! What is the House of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek and their brats roll around on the floor with the dogs? You are but a lesser son of greater sires!
(This post was edited by Earl on Apr 17 2009, 7:36am)
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 17 2009, 1:13pm
Post #13 of 31
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The goblins take out whips and some of the dwarves are now yammering and bleating, with poor Bilbo in the rear, closest to the whips.
Why doesn’t Tolkien specify which of the dwarves are crying out?
Because they aren't the heroes of the story.
Why doesn’t he mention Bilbo in here, as well?
Perhaps because we should assume that he is yammering and bleating.
Is he staying quiet?
Doubtful. He is the closest to the whips, after all.
Why is Bilbo at the end of the line?
Shortest legs.
Their belongings are being stolen by the goblins and we are told that goblins eat ponies. However, “the prisoners were only thinking of themselves.”
If no one is thinking about the ponies, why are we told about them?
In part to make us shiver, but oddly also to reassure us that the ponies may be lost, but the rest of the party is not. If members of the party were going to be lost, the narrator would be unlikely to mourn the ponies.
What's interesting is that later, Gandalf argues they should go back into the mountain to rescue Bilbo. No one suggests rescuing the ponies, and it doesn't seem as if Gandalf tries to do so here. As we have mentioned before, the members of the Fellowship are much more attached to their ponies and horses in LotR than Gandalf and the dwarves are in The Hobbit.
Do goblins not eat dwarves and hobbits?
The song suggests slavery. Perhaps there isn't much use for ponies in the mines. I wonder, though, if there would have been much use for Bilbo, who isn't an experienced miner.
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weaver
Gondolin
Apr 17 2009, 3:04pm
Post #14 of 31
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there's also one that tastes like dirt...
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I don't know the name of it, but it actually comes with doctor's recommendations to eat chocolate after you take it...
I found out that this only works once, however, when it came to getting my kids to take this stuff, it was so awful. No amount of chocolate was worth it most of the time, so it was quite a production every time they needed a dose.
Your reply made me think of the Disney Mary Poppins film -- "just a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go d-o-w-n..."
Where was she when we needed her?
Weaver
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 17 2009, 3:07pm
Post #15 of 31
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Before chld labor laws, mines used to use children regularly,in addition to adults. They could fit well in tight spaces. Bilbo may not be an experienced miner, but he can learn.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 17 2009, 3:09pm
Post #16 of 31
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Getting eaten is a constant threat in The Hobbit.
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Our hero is always almost getting eaten by trolls, goblins, Gollum, wargs, spiders, dragons, etc..
For a moment or two there is a fear that even the eagles will eat him up.
This means something.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 17 2009, 3:17pm)
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dernwyn
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Apr 17 2009, 3:31pm
Post #17 of 31
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It's the Hobbit-as-Rabbit theme...
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...which will culminate in the coney stew in LotR, as two rabbits are sacrified by Gollum and ingested by Bilbo's heirs.
Probably means something even deeper and darker, though...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 17 2009, 3:32pm
Post #18 of 31
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Isn't that the way of the world?
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Isn't life a constant struggle to avoid becoming devoured? Don't we all encounter daily pressure to suffer the swallowing up of our dreams, our principles, and our very identities, by the demands of people, organizations, society, and survival itself? In the history of the earth, the concept of individual identity is so revolutionary and new as to make hardly a blip in geologic history. Brand new sprouts can be so very vulnerable.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 17 2009, 3:43pm
Post #19 of 31
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And starving is a constant danger.
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Apparently the Wild is defined in part by an obsession with scarce food, both on the part of the good guys, who are always running out of it, and the monsters, who want to eat the good guys. In contrast, Bag End is defined by a constant stream of various appealing and civilized dishes of food from a large and well-supplied pantry. This may also have something to do with The Hobbit as a child's tale, though, since eating is a very big part of a growing child's life.
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 17 2009, 3:48pm
Post #20 of 31
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There the food is plentiful and civilized, and Bilbo is apparently wealthy enough that he never has to worry about the next meal. Of course, I suppose you could argue that Bilbo has been "swallowed up" by the society in which he lives, which has forced him to conform to boring social norms. But I don't think that is quite the same thing as fighting monsters who want to swallow you up in a more literal manner. I think the obsession with scarce food is a distinguishing characteristic of the Wild.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 17 2009, 3:49pm
Post #21 of 31
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But isn't it more a childish fear?
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Adults may use it as a metaphor in business, politics, war, etc., but it's children who have the real fear of being eaten up by wild animals in the woods or monsters in the closet. On the other hand, as an adult in the woods, I might worry about being bitten or killed by a wild animal, but the possiblity of actually being eaten by one doesn't really bother me.
But when I was a kid Mom always warned me about being careful about strangers because they might carry me off and put me in "nater soup".
I never figured out what "nater soup" was, but I knew I didn't want to become an ingredient in it.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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squire
Gondolin
Apr 17 2009, 3:50pm
Post #22 of 31
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That's a good point. It perfectly balances the constant obsession with getting enough food to eat, that pervades the book as well. The dwarves experience hunger also, but it is Bilbo whose famished thoughts we endlessly share.
One of the cleverer aspects of the construction of hobbits-as-grownup-children is this oral fixation. Children focus on food because they need it to grow, and cannot obtain it by themselves for many years (unlike most mammals whose children learn to hunt or forage within weeks or months of birth).
And who has not given a baby a delicious thrill by threatening to "eat you up, you're so cute!" Children are acutely aware of their own helplessness and small size, and are fascinated by the fear of being eaten - by dinosaurs, sharks, and "lions and tigers and bears, oh my!"
All of it works on a deep level to keep the child reader/listener fully engaged with the story.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 17 2009, 3:52pm
Post #23 of 31
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Good point, but the fate of the ponies
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does at least raise the possibility that Bilbo will be eaten too. After all, ponies were also used in mines. Sometimes the goblins' appetites might overcome their logic, as when the Great Goblin rushes towards the dwarves with his huge mouth open.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 17 2009, 4:00pm
Post #24 of 31
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At Amon Hen where the first Uruks rush at M&P to obviously kill (and eat?) them despite their orders to capture them unharmed.
(Of course it's also much more dramatic that Boromir saves them from being killed rather than from just from being captured.)
Also in the book where the Uruks, orcs, and goblins fight over eating the hobbits just outside Fangorn.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 17 2009, 7:15pm
Post #25 of 31
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Ah, but that's exactly my point
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Yes, indeed, Shire social norms so thouroughly devoured Bilbo that he hardly even noticed that he had a spirit yearning for something beyond its borders.
I took Darkstone's "This means something" to refer to what devouring fantasies might signify in the psyche. Children's stories--and their nightmares--especially feature fear of being devoured (Little Red Riding Hood, Hansel and Gretel, monsters under the bed, etc.) Children face processing into their respective societies--a necessary rite of passage, but if kids don't take care, the process could go too far and destroy their uniqueness. Such a delicate balance demands a healthy degree of fear, and the example of heroes who, through keeping their wits about them, manage to seize the treasures of maturity without becoming devoured by the adventure.
Or so I speculate.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Hee hee hee...
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