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Arwen's daughter
Gondolin
Apr 13 2009, 5:44am
Post #1 of 11
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**Over Hill and Under Hill** - Part 1: Dangerous Adventures over the Edge of the Wild
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Welcome to Over Hill and Under Hill. This is my first time leading a discussion in the RR, so please chime in if I’m missing something important! Let's start with a quick setting of the scene.
Up the mountains we go and at first our party chooses the “right road to the right pass,” but as they climb higher, the danger increases. They take a moment to look back to the west, where Bilbo’s home lies.
Is the physical distance from home important? Is it more important than the emotional distance from home? If Bilbo’s house were just at the bottom of the mountain would things be different? What if he couldn’t see home at all?
We’re told about the many dangers our travelers face: bitter cold, falling boulders, and an eerie silence that seems to dislike being broken.
Is the mountain more dangerous because it is personified? Are the nights not scary enough unless they are actively plotting against the dwarves?
And we’re told that the dwarves had expected to cross the mountains quickly and reach the Lonely Mountain by the first moon of autumn. Gandalf knew better, but said nothing.
Are our dwarves new to traveling? Are they really so naïve as to think they will have no problems along the way? Why doesn’t Gandalf try to correct them?
Within two paragraphs of leaving Elrond's home, things go badly for our party. Why no lead up, no suspense?
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 13 2009, 2:22pm
Post #2 of 11
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The afternoon wore on, and with the awe, born of the White Silence, the voiceless travelers bent to their work. Nature has many tricks wherewith she convinces man of his finity, — the ceaseless flow of the tides, the fury of the storm, the shock of the earthquake, the long roll of heaven's artillery, — but the most tremendous, the most stupefying of all, is the passive phase of the White Silence. All movement ceases, the sky clears, the heavens are as brass; the slightest whisper seems sacrilege, and man becomes timid, affrighted at the sound of his own voice. Sole speck of life journeying across the ghostly wastes of a dead world, he trembles at his audacity, realizes that his is a maggot's life, nothing more. Strange thoughts arise unsummoned, and the mystery of all things strives for utterance. And the fear of death, of God, of the universe, comes over him, — the hope of the Resurrection and the Life, the yearning for immortality, the vain striving of the imprisoned essence, — it is then, if ever, man walks alone with God.
-Jack London, The White Silence (1899)
Is the physical distance from home important?
75% of all cases of homesickness happen within 25 miles of home.
(Also 95% of all statistics are made up on the spot.)
Is it more important than the emotional distance from home?
For me it was the awareness of the physical distance, but also an awareness of the time involved in getting back. The knowledge that I couldn’t get home without waiting through a long period and process was quite daunting. And unfamiliar surroundings, people, language, and customs add to the sense of distance.
Plus strangers shooting at you definitely doesn’t help either.
Perhaps most subtle is the eventual realization that you are not the same person anymore. So there’s the very great fear (a lot of times self fulfilling) that you won’t fit in even when you do go back home, that, as Thomas Wolfe said, YOU can never go home again.
If Bilbo’s house were just at the bottom of the mountain would things be different?
Then he’d now be aware of the danger of “galloping boulders” (love that image!) squishing it when he was away. Not good.
What if he couldn’t see home at all?
You can always see home. That’s what the heart is for.
We’re told about the many dangers our travelers face: bitter cold, falling boulders, and an eerie silence that seems to dislike being broken.
Is the mountain more dangerous because it is personified?
The non-human is always more dangerous. It knows neither pity nor mercy.
Are the nights not scary enough unless they are actively plotting against the dwarves?
Night is dangerous because it gives you time to think.
And we’re told that the dwarves had expected to cross the mountains quickly and reach the Lonely Mountain by the first moon of autumn. Gandalf knew better, but said nothing.
Are our dwarves new to traveling?
No, in fact they’re wanderers. Gloin was a traveling tinker and iron monger. And that may be the problem. I think they feel they are traveling light and so are convinced they can make much better time unencumbered by their usual possessions.
Are they really so naïve as to think they will have no problems along the way?
Thorin is obsessed and his followers are loyal enough to follow him anywhere without question. Plus, “Dwarves had not passed that way for many years, but Gandalf had, and he knew how evil and danger had grown and thriven in the Wild…”
Why doesn’t Gandalf try to correct them?
He’s wise enough to know that experience is the better teacher.
Within two paragraphs of leaving Elrond's home, things go badly for our party. Why no lead up, no suspense?
That’s just what we expected, so he springs it on us as we’re still settling into the journey. Again, Tolkien breaks the rules, stands the conventions of storytelling on its head, and does what no sane novelist would even think of doing. And he pulls it off. Either pure genius or gifted amateur. I vote the former.
What’s interesting is that it didn’t catch Bilbo by surprise:
“He knew that something unexpected might happen...”
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 13 2009, 9:23pm
Post #3 of 11
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Thanks for leading the discussion!
I have a couple of comments in addition to my answers to your questions. First, the title of this chapter follows up on Balin's comment at the beginning of the previous chapter about going through or over or under the mountains. Both Balin's comment and the title of this chapter foreshadow what will happen.
Second, I'm struck by the clear demarkation between civilization and the Wild in this chapter. The trolls came "'down from the mountains'" into civilization; now the party is heading into those same mountains and the rest of the Wild, which is absolutely infested with monsters at every turn. The Necromancer is not blamed; instead dragons (note the plural) and goblins get most of the blame. We will later discover that even animals are different in the Wild -- no longer dumb, but instead seemingly sentient and often talkative.
In LotR the border seemed stronger at the edge of the Shire and Buckland; here the lands between Rivendell and Bag End don't seem that different, although less populated as they get closer to Rivendell, while the lands east of Rivendell are completely different from those to the west. The adventure before Rivendell seemed unusual; more commonly adventurers use Rivendell as a launching point.
Is the physical distance from home important?
Yes. Any closer and Bilbo could turn back; then again, if Bilbo had grown up in the shadow of the mountains he might be less inclined to turn back.
Is it more important than the emotional distance from home?
They go hand in hand; I can't imagine one without the other.
If Bilbo’s house were just at the bottom of the mountain would things be different?
See above.
What if he couldn’t see home at all?
He can't; that's what makes him gloomy. But he is just as gloomy when he doesn't have a view to the west.
Is the mountain more dangerous because it is personified?
I don't see it as personified -- certainly not like Caradhras was in LotR. I see Tolkien using perfectly natural phenomena to create an ominous tone.
Are the nights not scary enough unless they are actively plotting against the dwarves?
I like camping in the mountains, except for the trip where a bear took our food on the first night. The threat that he would return changed the camping trip completely. The threat of goblins would have changed it even more.
Are our dwarves new to traveling?
They do not seem well traveled, although Thorin, at least, took part in the war against the goblins. But it seems like ages since that battle, and Thorin seems to have become well-settled and almost as domestic as Bilbo in the meantime. Since that battle, the dwarves' travels seem to have been confined to the civilized lands to the west of the mountains.
Are they really so naïve as to think they will have no problems along the way?
More in denial than naïve, I think, since Gandalf has tried to warn them.
Why doesn’t Gandalf try to correct them?
He does, starting in the first chapter. But he doesn't belabor the point, first because it would fall on deaf ears, and second because he wants them to press forward and not turn back.
Within two paragraphs of leaving Elrond's home, things go badly for our party. Why no lead up, no suspense?
We had some lead up in the last chapter, and more after things begin to go badly in this chapter -- the goblins do not jump out of hiding until the fifteenth paragraph.
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weaver
Gondolin
Apr 14 2009, 3:26am
Post #5 of 11
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"There was Tom Bombadil's house before them...
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...up, down, under hill."
I always liked that description of Tom's home, as being in a very specific place, but not one that's easily defined. Not sure Tolkien is going for the same thing here, with his"over hill and under hill" title, but since my mind made the connection I thought I'd pass it along...
And now I'll tackle one of your questions...
Within two paragraphs of leaving Elrond's home, things go badly for our party. Why no lead up, no suspense?
Well, Tolkien needs to get us back into the story quickly after the slow pace of the time spent in Rivendell. So it helps, I think for things to very quickly get ominous so that his readers have some action to focus on, bringing their attention back on the dwarves and their quest, and away from the elves and Elrond...
Weaver
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Apr 14 2009, 4:24am
Post #6 of 11
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Is the physical distance from home important?
Hmmm...it can be. Ever drank a lot of fluids and felt the need to get home *right now* 
Is it more important than the emotional distance from home?
That depends. If my car has a flat and I'm miles out then those miles seem like a big deal--even if I can make a call to roadside assistance. But I would know that there is a way to cross the miles.
If Bilbo’s house were just at the bottom of the mountain would things be different?
He might be tempted to pack it in and go home.
What if he couldn’t see home at all?
Less temptation?
Is the mountain more dangerous because it is personified? Are the nights not scary enough unless they are actively plotting against the dwarves?
I think Tolkien uses some vivid words (shrill, wail, crack, galloping, let loose, uncanny) here to point out the need for the travelers to consider using caution with regards to the active physical environment.
Are our dwarves new to traveling? Are they really so naïve as to think they will have no problems along the way? Why doesn’t Gandalf try to correct them?
They certainly don't seem to be seasoned travelers but are still in that 'wishful thinking' mode. Oh that Gandalf! Seems like he usually speaks up when he is fairly certain of himself. Maybe he's got his fingers crossed, too, at this point.
Within two paragraphs of leaving Elrond's home, things go badly for our party. Why no lead up, no suspense?
Well, we do get some sense of suspense with those hints of plans going astray.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 14 2009, 6:30am
Post #7 of 11
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I think Gandalf didn't correct their hopeful ideas because he knew how important morale can be on a dangerous mission.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 15 2009, 3:21am
Post #9 of 11
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Although the homesick Hobbit is as "gloomy" about the journey at this point as the Dwarves are, it is Gandalf who is "expecting the unexpected", and we won't be picking up on Bilbo's viewpoint again until after the storm starts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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sador
Gondolin
Apr 16 2009, 11:57am
Post #10 of 11
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take a moment to look back to the west, where Bilbo’s home lies.
Is the physical distance from home important? Is it more important than the emotional distance from home? If Bilbo’s house were just at the bottom of the mountain would things be different? What if he couldn’t see home at all?
I guess this is very important to the child-reader (which, as squire likes to remind us, is an important part of the audience). And Bilbo feels for home all through his adventure - which builds the child's sympathy.
Is the mountain more dangerous because it is personified? Are the nights not scary enough unless they are actively plotting against the dwarves?
I agree with Curious: I do not see the mountain as personified at all. And the nights seem plotting because they are scary.
Are our dwarves new to traveling? Are they really so naïve as to think they will have no problems along the way?
Well, they have successfully passed their first trial (with the trolls), and have gained a famous blade to defend them - interestingly, it will do so only in the mountain passes!
And they trust Gandalf and Elrond, who are supposedly wise and know the passes well.
But yes, if you remember Thorin's speech in Bag End, saying about arrival at the Long Lake: "After that, the trouble will begin..." - they do seem quite naive.
Why doesn’t Gandalf try to correct them?
He corrected Thorin in Bag End.
Now - either he wants to keep up their morale, or else he has despaired of ever bringing Thorin to reason.
Within two paragraphs of leaving Elrond's home, things go badly for our party. Why no lead up, no suspense?
Things do not go badly yet; they are just going through an oppressive landscape. It's not really that much worse than when after passing through hobbit-lands, the dwarves are stuck in Eriador (as we learn it is called in LotR) in the rain - possibly even better, as they did not lose their supplies by a silly pony bolting into the river!
"In fact I should like to know all about you. Not that it will do you much good" - the Great Goblin
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
May 5 2009, 5:29pm
Post #11 of 11
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Excellent leadership Arwen's daughter!! :D
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I think because the dwarves were finally on an official Quest, that they could assume everything would come together exactly as they planned. Gandalf didn't say anything because he knew by now that dwarves were stern minded (pig headed) and weren't always receptive to contradiction. Gandalf probably learned to pick his battles and his arguments with them. They'd wizen up soon enough.
Physical and emotional distance from home will always matter to our hobbit.
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
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