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Menelwyn
Nargothrond
Apr 9 2009, 9:52pm
Post #1 of 13
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**A Short Rest**--Part 5, Ancient Realms
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After the company has been in Rivendell for some days, they have a final meeting with Elrond on midsummer’s eve before planning to depart the next day. Elrond first examines the swords that they found from the trolls, identifying them as being from Gondolin; some of Elrond’s kin were from there. Thorin’s sword, Orcrist, “was a famous blade.” Gandalf’s Glamdring had belonged to the king of Gondolin. The city was destroyed long before, though, and Elrond speculates that the “trolls had plundered other plunderers” to obtain their hoard.
Why does Tolkien wait to have Elrond identify the blades, rather than having Gandalf do it?
Why could Tolkien not resist a little connection to his Silmarillion stories and Gondolin? We talk a lot about how references like this in LOTR give that book some of its sense of historical depth. Is that what’s going on here, too? Is that important in a children’s book?
Had Tolkien written this book later and/or as an adult book, do you think he might have handled this Gondolin business differently? If so, how?
Time for some sheer speculation: what’s the history of Orcrist? Who did it belong to, what deeds were accomplished with it, how was it lost in the fall of Gondolin?
Having heard about the history of the swords, Thorin looked at his sword “with new interest”. What would he have found interesting about this? Would he know anything about Gondolin, or is he just interested in the fact that this sword has a cool background?
Thinking about how the swords might have come to the trolls, Elrond reports that he has heard “that there are still forgotten treasures of old to be found in the deserted caverns of the mines of Moria, since the dwarf and goblin war.”
What are we to think of the Moria reference? Why does Elrond bring it up? Does he know about Thorin’s family connection to Moria and to the dwarf and goblin war?
Not really a question here, but I find it interesting that Elrond is talking about the treasures of Moria, something that the dwarves would surely want to reclaim, even as he is talking to Thorin about the quest to reclaim the Lonely Mountain and its treasure. And I like how Tolkien is able to bring Moria back in LOTR, with Gloin’s speech at the Council of Elrond, which again seems reminiscent of the Quest of Erebor. Gloin reports, “it was said…that greater wealth and splendor would be found in a wider world. Some spoke of Moria: the mighty works of our fathers…; and they declared that now at last we had the power and numbers to return….Moria! Moria! Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the nameless fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the children of Durin fled.”
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acheron
Mithlond
Apr 9 2009, 10:50pm
Post #2 of 13
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Why does Tolkien wait to have Elrond identify the blades, rather than having Gandalf do it?
I would say that for the Hobbit version of Gandalf, Elvish blades were out of his knowledge. Gandalf knows many things, but perhaps not the history of Gondolin.
The LOTR Gandalf of course would know right away. In Tolkien's abandoned rewrite of the Hobbit in 1960, the blades are all dirty and covered in dried blood, and Gandalf says at the cave something about "when we get them cleaned up we may be able to discover more about them". The 1960 Hobbit didn't get this far, but we can assume the Rivendell Elves would have cleaned the blades up, and then Elrond would still be able to tell the party about Gondolin.
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
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Arwen's daughter
Gondolin
Apr 10 2009, 1:36am
Post #3 of 13
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Why does Tolkien wait to have Elrond identify the blades, rather than having Gandalf do it?
I assume that it's simply a matter of convenience. He can't have Gandalf acting as Wikipedia on legs. Not to mention that Tolkien may not have wanted to stop the action in order to name the swords until this moment and having Gandalf do it at Rivendell would raise just this question, I suppose.
Why could Tolkien not resist a little connection to his Silmarillion stories and Gondolin? We talk a lot about how references like this in LOTR give that book some of its sense of historical depth. Is that what’s going on here, too? Is that important in a children’s book?
I think it's important in all books that the author have a good sense of his world that he can pass onto the reader without giving too many details. It helps to build a believable world; it gives us readers a sense that this world exists beyond the borders of the story. No, it's not important to the story itself, but it's important to help us buy into the story as a reality, if that makes sense.
Having heard about the history of the swords, Thorin looked at his sword “with new interest”. What would he have found interesting about this? Would he know anything about Gondolin, or is he just interested in the fact that this sword has a cool background?
Again, I connect this to Thorin's flair for the dramatic and vanity. Whether he knows the full story of Gondolin or not, he strikes me as the kind of person who wouldn't want to carry anything less than a famous blade.
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One Ringer
Dor-Lomin
Apr 10 2009, 1:14pm
Post #4 of 13
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I find that it never truly had an owner. Being that it was made by Elves of Gondolin, and isn't ever specified as having a true owner. I think it was used to envoke fear in the Goblins during the War of the Jewels. It was probably kept secure, and used only to detect the nearby opposition. So perhaps it is possible that during the war, being without guard, the Goblins captured the blade, and took it, eliminating their fear. After that we can assume, like the One Ring, that the blade was lost, and eventually discovered by the Trolls, and the rest, as it is called, is all history.
This is all speculation of course. 
What Could Have Been - an ongoing discussion of things that may or may not have been in The Lord of the Rings Trilogy.
(This post was edited by One Ringer on Apr 10 2009, 1:15pm)
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 10 2009, 3:28pm
Post #5 of 13
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Why does Tolkien wait to have Elrond identify the blades, rather than having Gandalf do it?
Tolkien wanted a role for Elrond that would make him look good, which means he had to have something to reveal, something Gandalf might not know. The blades make some sense because Elrond might be more intimately familiar with the history of elven blades than Gandalf.
Why did Tolkien want to introduce Elrond and his jolly elves into the story? Perhaps to make it clear that not all elves were as hostile as those in Mirkwood. Or perhaps just because he thought it would be fun, and would give the party a chance to resupply. Tolkien is developing the rhythm he will use again in LotR -- adventure, rest and resupply, adventure, rest and resupply, and so on. The party will rest and resupply again at Beorn's house and at Lake-town.
Why could Tolkien not resist a little connection to his Silmarillion stories and Gondolin? We talk a lot about how references like this in LOTR give that book some of its sense of historical depth. Is that what’s going on here, too?
Yes. The Silmarillion proved to be a good back history to stories about hobbits. It gave The Hobbit some depth, and encouraged Tolkien to do much more of the same in LotR.
Is that important in a children’s book?
It's rare in a children's book, but then The Hobbit is an unusual children's book, almost epic in scope compared to most children's books. I'm not sure whether it enhances the story for children, but then I judge that Tolkien never wanted to write his stories just for children.
Had Tolkien written this book later and/or as an adult book, do you think he might have handled this Gondolin business differently? If so, how?
Yes, if The Hobbit had been fully integrated into the world of The Silmarillion like LotR, Tolkien might have hesistated to say that these blades were from Gondolin because then he might have had to do more to explain how the blades survived the War of Wrath and the destruction of Beleriand. On the other hand, maybe he would have invented an explanation, and put it in the appendices somewhere, as he did regarding the Barrow-blades in LotR.
Time for some sheer speculation: what’s the history of Orcrist? Who did it belong to, what deeds were accomplished with it, how was it lost in the fall of Gondolin?
It's odd that it is called a "famous blade," considering that Gondolin was shrouded in secrecy and then destroyed. But Turgon did go to war once, in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. However I don't recall anyone in Turgon's army earning special mention in the account of that battle -- most of the glory went to the rearguard composed of mortal men who allowed Turgon to retreat, and particularly to Hurin (who was captured) and Huor (who died).
The account of the Fall of Gondolin became famous because Tuor and Idril and their followers survived and told others about it. Two warriors in particular earned glory in that fall: Glorfindel and Ecthelion of the Fountain, each of whom died killing a balrog. Tolkien eventually decided that Glorfindel in LotR was the same as Glorfindel in The Sil, although he made that decision after LotR was published -- originally he may have just reused the name. Ecthelion may have earned even greater glory, for he killed Gothmog, the Lord of the Balrogs. I would speculate, then, that Orcrist belonged to one of those two famous heroic elven warriors, and I think I'll pick Ecthelion because we avoid the complication of Glorfindel recognizing his own blade, and perhaps asking for it to be returned.
What would [Thorin] have found interesting about this? Would he know anything about Gondolin, or is he just interested in the fact that this sword has a cool background?
Mostly the latter, I judge. Thorin doesn't strike me as an expert in Elvish history.
What are we to think of the Moria reference? Why does Elrond bring it up? Does he know about Thorin’s family connection to Moria and to the dwarf and goblin war?
This is more back story, but I'm not sure it comes from The Silmarillion. Tolkien referred to Moria in the original version of The Hobbit. This seems to be back story invented primarily for The Hobbit and the dwarves therein, and then further developed in LotR, after which Tolkien went back to The Hobbit and added some more details, like the name Azog. Of course Elrond would know about Moria, as do Thorin and Gandalf in Chapter One.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 10 2009, 4:10pm
Post #6 of 13
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"Well, Captain Obvious had grown so rich, he wanted to retire. He took me to his cabin and he told me his secret. 'I am not the Dread Captain Obvious', he said. 'My name is Elrond; I inherited the swan ship from the previous Dread Captain Obvious, just as you will inherit it from me. The man I inherited it from is not the real Dread Captain Obvious either. His name was Maglor. The real Obvious has been retired 15 centuries and living like a king in Valinor."
-Legolas Greenleaf, an unpublished autobiography
Why does Tolkien wait to have Elrond identify the blades, rather than having Gandalf do it?
All the “Captain Obvious” and “Mister Exposition” lines are given to Elves. Jackson continued the Tolkien tradition in the films.
Why could Tolkien not resist a little connection to his Silmarillion stories and Gondolin?
Because the Sil was the book that he actually wanted published. The rest were merely potboilers. It’s like how Sir Arthur Sullivan considered his mostly forgotten grand opera Ivanhoe to be his masterpiece, but instead today he’s far better known for his comic operas with WS Gilbert. You hook up a dynamo to the corpses of both Sullivan and Tolkien and you’d have enough rpms to power all of London.
We talk a lot about how references like this in LOTR give that book some of its sense of historical depth. Is that what’s going on here, too?
Sure.
Is that important in a children’s book?
It’s even more important in a children’s book. An adult would be able to fill in the blanks with his/her own experience. A child could use some help. And ironically a child would have enough imagination for that hint of historical depth to take them so much farther than an adult.
Think of it as priming the pump of imagination. Just a little bit of water at first can end up producing a river.
Had Tolkien written this book later and/or as an adult book, do you think he might have handled this Gondolin business differently?
Probably.
If so, how?
He’d have made the “The Council of Elrond” in LOTR seem like a 15 second commercial.
Time for some sheer speculation: what’s the history of Orcrist? Who did it belong to, what deeds were accomplished with it, how was it lost in the fall of Gondolin?
It was originally forged for Princess Idril, who used it to kill many orcs defending Idril’s Secret Way. When she left for Valinor she gave it to Elwing, who used it in the defense of the Havens, killing the twins Amras and Amrod by simultaneously decapitating them both with one slice of the blade. Elwing left it behind when she dove into the sea, and it was captured by Maglor, who later gave it to his foster son Elrond, who then gave it to his bride Celebrian as one of her wedding gifts. It was lost when she was captured by orcs. Elrond shows great self-control in The Hobbit by not immediately crying out when he recognized it. As it was, his seemingly calm and detached words betrayed an underlying ironic bitterness:
“I could not say,” said Elrond, “but one may guess that your trolls had plundered other plunderers, or come on the remnants of old robberies in some hold in the mountains of the North. I have heard that there are still forgotten treasures of old to be found in the deserted caverns of the mines of Moria, since the dwarf and goblin war.”
The old robbery refers to his wife’s kidnapping, and the forgotten treasure is, of course, his dear Celebrian.
This is indeed the high tragedy of the Sil.
Having heard about the history of the swords, Thorin looked at his sword “with new interest”. What would he have found interesting about this?
It’s like finding out the history of an old piece of junk in the attic. You start visualizing who held it and how they used it and why they held onto it and how it ended up in a battered old box in the attic.
Would he know anything about Gondolin, or is he just interested in the fact that this sword has a cool background?
Yes.
Thinking about how the swords might have come to the trolls, Elrond reports that he has heard “that there are still forgotten treasures of old to be found in the deserted caverns of the mines of Moria, since the dwarf and goblin war.”
What are we to think of the Moria reference?
He definitely knows who Balin is.
Why does Elrond bring it up?
He’s subtly urging Thorin to look to Balin for counsel during this adventure.
Does he know about Thorin’s family connection to Moria and to the dwarf and goblin war?
He seems to know of Durin. However, it’s curious that he doesn’t know of Durin’s Day, which surely would have been a holiday well known to the Elves of Hollin, when all the Dwarves tra-la-lallied. Indeed, maybe that’s where the Elves learned to tra-la-lally in the first place, which come to think of it, may be precisely the reason Elrond has blotted it from his memory.
Not really a question here, but I find it interesting that Elrond is talking about the treasures of Moria, something that the dwarves would surely want to reclaim, even as he is talking to Thorin about the quest to reclaim the Lonely Mountain and its treasure.
A bit of subtle politicking by Elrond. It would be far more strategically advantageous for the Elves if the Dwarves retook Moria than Erebor. A friendly Moria would restore communications between the Elven Lands.
And I like how Tolkien is able to bring Moria back in LOTR, with Gloin’s speech at the Council of Elrond, which again seems reminiscent of the Quest of Erebor. Gloin reports, “it was said…that greater wealth and splendor would be found in a wider world. Some spoke of Moria: the mighty works of our fathers…; and they declared that now at last we had the power and numbers to return….Moria! Moria! Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the nameless fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the children of Durin fled.”
It’s déjà vu all over again!
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Apr 10 2009, 4:27pm
Post #7 of 13
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Your history of Orcrist is amazing. And very sad.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 10 2009, 4:54pm
Post #9 of 13
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And you crack me up too. Who says the Reading Room is so serious?//
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Menelwyn
Nargothrond
Apr 10 2009, 8:15pm
Post #10 of 13
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brilliant impromptu fanfic! Bravo! //
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Elven
Doriath
Apr 11 2009, 9:26am
Post #11 of 13
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Some thoughts .... Ancient Realms
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Why does Tolkien wait to have Elrond identify the blades, rather than having Gandalf do it?
I also think that he needed the reader to see Elrond was no dummy, a tra-la singer, and there was some substance to the blades which there was a connection to Elrond.
_________
Why could Tolkien not resist a little connection to his Silmarillion stories and Gondolin? We talk a lot about how references like this in LOTR give that book some of its sense of historical depth. Is that what’s going on here, too? Is that important in a children’s book?
I think it also makes Tolkien, as the narrator, add some credit to the story - a touch of reality and behind the scene knowledge. It's important and adds layers - without going off on a tangent somewhere else, I'm amazed Tolkien didnt get carried tofar away on these tracks - he seems to keep to the path quite well.
________
Had Tolkien written this book later and/or as an adult book, do you think he might have handled this Gondolin business differently? If so, how?
Possibly, but we will never know, and I could only speculate that there would have been some expansion and explaination of sorts.
________
Having heard about the history of the swords, Thorin looked at his sword “with new interest”. What would he have found interesting about this? Would he know anything about Gondolin, or is he just interested in the fact that this sword has a cool background?
I get the impression that he wouldn't have thought much about Gondolin, but who ended up with the nice sword! Him - Thorins very much (at this stage) about Me Me Me!
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Cheers
Elven x
Swishtail.
Tolkien was a Capricorn!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn!!
Avatar: Liberace - The other Lord of the Rings.
Quote of The Week: The thing is I always write in the morning, and I know that if I go to the Net I won’t write ... you can start in the most scholarly website and end up at Paris Hilton dot com .. GdT
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 12 2009, 2:11am
Post #12 of 13
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"underlying ironic bitterness"
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Which is made even more bitter by this: Glamdring should belong to Elrond!
That's what makes your account of Orcrist, even though speculative, eerily close to what may have actually been the case, if the two blades belonged to the same family.
Glamdring belonged to the king of Gondolin, according to Elrond. But Rateliff points out that that king was Turgon, father of Idril, mother of Eärendil, father of - Elrond! The half-elven lord is indeed showing great restraint in not claiming that sword as rightfully his!
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
May 5 2009, 6:20pm
Post #13 of 13
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didn't read the runes himself, but then I figured it gave credibility to Elrond and brought up his status in the eyes of the dwarves. Maybe Gandalf didn't want them all to know he could read the runes. Maybe he was hiding some of his power/ability like he usually did... walking around like an old man all tattered and homeless. Yeah... right.
I think this is the perfect time to bring all of Tolkien's stories together, and could really be elaborated on in these films. Especially the Moria connection. It not only shows Elrond's knowledge of all things dwarvish and Gondolinish and everything else-ish, but it's leading into the obvious storyline for LotR.
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
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