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Menelwyn
Nargothrond
Apr 6 2009, 9:12pm
Post #1 of 33
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**A Short Rest**--Part 2, Tra-la-la-lally
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Upon arriving in Rivendell, Bilbo and his companions are greeted by the elves with the infamous “tra-la-la-lally” song, which I will resist quoting in its entirety. I’ll address the elves themselves in my next post, but here I want to consider the song. The narrator describes it as “pretty fair nonsense”, or at least attributes that opinion to the readers, and then later describes another song of the Elves as “as ridiculous as the one I have written down in full”.
Why are the Elves singing a nonsense song? Is there any meaning or significance to it? Would this song have any appeal to children? Would it work better with music than as poetry?
Why does Tolkien introduce Elves with a “ridiculous” song? How does this introduction compare to his introduction to the Dwarves? How do the songs of the two races compare?
Compare this song with that other nonsense song, Bombadil’s.
Is there any way at all that this could be handled intelligently in the movie?
After the Elves greet the travelers, they offer to let the company stay with them and sing, or to let them go on to the House for supper. We are told that “Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars, not if you care for such things.”
Really, considering the ridiculous nonsense songs that we’ve just encountered?
Bilbo would have preferred to stay, but his companions prefer to go on to supper.
What does that tell us about Bilbo? Would any other hobbits (including our heroes from LOTR) have shared that choice?
In the song, the Elves had named Bilbo, Balin, and Dwalin. Bilbo reflects that “he would have liked to have a few private words with these people that seemed to know his name and all about him, although he had never seen them before. He thought their opinion of his adventure might be interesting.”
What do these particular Elves (as opposed to Elrond himself, or Gandalf’s friends that he had encountered in the previous chapter) know about Bilbo’s business? Why do they know anything? What do you suppose their opinion of his adventure might be?
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squire
Gondolin
Apr 6 2009, 9:20pm
Post #2 of 33
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Here down in the valley, the valley, the valley, the va-aa-aa-ll-ey! Tra la!
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Lyrics often sound ridiculous without their music. I generally find the Elves' songs at Rivendell in The Hobbit to be a bit of low fluff to amuse children with, but I sometimes reflect that a good choral composer is all that's needed. He or she could turn those lyrics into a close harmony, multi-voiced chorus with some really beautiful acappella solos. You would hear the music, not the words, primarily. I would love for the movie to do this, and prove all of us wrong about how bad these verses are!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 6 2009, 9:37pm
Post #3 of 33
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Steve Allen used to make fun of Rock and Roll lyrics.
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Here's an example.
And how about McArthur Park?
MacArthur's Park is melting in the dark
All the sweet, green icing flowing down
Someone left the cake out in the rain
I don't think that I can take it
'Cause it took so long to bake it
And I'll never have that recipe again
Oh, no!
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 6 2009, 9:58pm
Post #4 of 33
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It reminds me of "Deck the Halls."
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Deck the halls with boughs of holly, Fa la la la la, la la la la. 'Tis the season to be jolly, Fa la la la la, la la la la. Don we now our gay apparel, Fa la la, la la la, la la la. Toll the ancient Yule tide carol, Fa la la la la, la la la la. See the blazing Yule before us, Fa la la la la, la la la la. Strike the harp and join the chorus. Fa la la la la, la la la la. Follow me in merry measure, Fa la la, la la la, la la la. While I tell of Yule tide treasure, Fa la la la la, la la la la. Fast away the old year passes, Fa la la la la, la la la la. Hail the new, ye lads and lasses, Fa la la la la, la la la la. Sing we joyous, all together, Fa la la, la la la, la la la. Heedless of the wind and weather, Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Not to mention the songs of Shakespeare.
When that I was and a little tiny boy, With hey, ho, the wind and the rain, A foolish thing was but a toy, For the rain it raineth every day.
But when I came to man’s estate, With hey, ho, the wind and the rain, ’Gainst knaves and thieves men shut their gate, For the rain it raineth every day.
But when I came, alas! to wive, With hey, ho, the wind and the rain, By swaggering could I never thrive, For the rain it raineth every day.
But when I came unto my beds, With hey, ho, the wind and the rain, With toss-pots still had drunken heads, For the rain it raineth every day.
A great while ago the world begun, With hey, ho, the wind and the rain, But that’s all one, our play is done, And we’ll strive to please you every day. Songs do work better with music. On the other hand, Tolkien took a very different tone in LotR, with neither the dwarves nor the elves indulging in ridiculous songs. But Bombadil is a different story, and so are the hobbits -- they can be just as silly in LotR as in The Hobbit. More later.
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Laerasëa
Dor-Lomin
Apr 6 2009, 10:10pm
Post #5 of 33
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Why are the Elves singing a nonsense song? Is there any meaning or significance to it? Would this song have any appeal to children? Would it work better with music than as poetry?
I do think it would work much better as music (although it'd have to be a darn good melody/harmonic sequence for me to really like it), but I definitely wouldn't call it very poetic. (although I guess poems do rhyme sometimes, don't they?  )
Why does Tolkien introduce Elves with a “ridiculous” song? How does this introduction compare to his introduction to the Dwarves? How do the songs of the two races compare?
Well, the dwarves sing that sort of silly song about "what Bilbo Baggins hates", but they also launch into that little story of Smaug and their treasure, which is certainly a lot more "epic" in style than the Elves' song. It seems to make it easier to relate to the dwarves (they're angry that their treasure was stolen; not too complicated to understand), and it puts more distance between us (as the readers) and the elves-- not that their song is complex, but more that we have more trouble understanding the exact thought process behind it. (if there was any)
On the other hand, it points out a similarity between these two races that supposedly don't get along, which is sort of interesting.
Compare this song with that other nonsense song, Bombadil’s.
Both of the songs are described as nonsense which does seem to make them somewhat related (what, are you saying that "ring a dong dillo" doesn't mean anything to you? ) Well, I guess that Tolkien has this idea that incoherency is a sign of power or something. Certainly, the hobbits (both from Hobbit and LOTR) look up to the Elves, and I would definitely say that Tom Bombadil, whatever he is, has a strong power that makes him unaffected by the Ring, and he is able to save the hobbits a few times from various situations. Also, both Bombadil and the elves are good; they help the hobbits (/dwarves) on their adventures. And they both do sing songs at various points that aren't quite as silly, which gives them both a slightly more serious side, too.
Is there any way at all that this could be handled intelligently in the movie?
Um. I will leave that up to the experts. As I said, it would have to be pretty impressive musicality for me to like it (then again, I have faith in Howard!). There's lots of room for experimental choral stuff, anyway.
Really, considering the ridiculous nonsense songs that we’ve just encountered?
But then people wouldn't get to lead any fun discussions analyzing the lyrics! Maybe the singing's different in June. Or maybe the music's really pretty, and we as the readers just don't hear it.
What does that tell us about Bilbo? Would any other hobbits (including our heroes from LOTR) have shared that choice?
I'm running out of answers. Hobbits don't listen to much foreign music?
Fun questions (although difficult to answer!) 
********************************
Traveling Journal Official Site
The journal is in Canada!!!
Kurmudginz of the wrld unite!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-Starling
Innocence is precious. Trees are precious. Families are precious. Clean water is precious. Light is precious. Rulers and Rules and Rings of Power are not precious.
-Curious
It’s always amazing how utterly stupid Evil can be.
-Darkstone
Honest, Altaira! I was just telling Auntie D how to make a possessive out of the name 'a.s.'! Really, truly!
-a.s.
I got to teach contrasts of LOTR elves vs. Santa Claus and Harry Potter elves in class this week. People were forgetting that Dobby was an elf. Probably a good thing.
-Menelwyn
Beware of geeks, for they are testy and articulate!
-gramma
(This post was edited by Laerasëa on Apr 6 2009, 10:14pm)
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Apr 6 2009, 11:49pm
Post #6 of 33
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Maybe the singing's different in June.
It is getting close to Midsummer. Maybe the elves are practicing for their Midsummer concert, rather like us practicing for a Christmas concert. Most of the year, we wouldn't be singing 'fa la la la", but right before Christmas we might.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Apr 6 2009, 11:50pm)
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Apr 6 2009, 11:58pm
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I thought Shore and PJ did a disservice to the Elves by making them all serious, all the time. They seemed so slow and heavy and almost ponderous, and I always pictured them being light and light-hearted, even when they were sad (I know that doesn't make much sense, but I know what I mean. And it doesn't fit at all with the Sil elves, but they don't fit in with my mental image of LotR either.)
I think the movie could make this song light without making it utterly silly. At one time, someone (Magpie?) suggested that it could be like a madrigal (which echoes Curious' observation about Deck the Halls).
I love that Bilbo loves the music even more than the thought of supper. He really is a remarkable hobbit!
I do have to confess that when I read The Hobbit for the first time, I pictured the Elves looking like Keebler elves or Santa elves, and nothing in that book did anything to change that image. And even when I read LotR the first time, when they first met Gildor & Co. in Woody End, I still had the same image in my mind. So Glorfindel was rather a shock.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Apr 7 2009, 12:00am)
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One Ringer
Dor-Lomin
Apr 7 2009, 1:45am
Post #8 of 33
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While Dwarves are greedy, gruffy, and just dirty, Elves are more mature, and enjoy every moment of life through song. Why is it ridiculous? Well, being that Elves are immortal, I find it somehow to be the idea that Elves don't completely grasp certain things about life, because they take it for granted so much, and so when it comes to song, it is expressed much differently than man's, or hobbit's.
What Could Have Been - an ongoing discussion of things that may or may not have been in The Lord of the Rings Trilogy.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 7 2009, 3:14am
Post #9 of 33
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Aunt Dora, Curious, and Father Christmas
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Very interesting that Aunt Dora first got the impression that these Elves were like Santa's helpers, and that Curious found the similarity between their song and a familiar Christmas song!
Rateliff, in trying to understand the nature of these Elves, found that their "depiction owes something to the frivolous elves of much of The Book of Lost Tales", noting that the original Lúthien danced among "white moths" and was small enough to hide under a "very tall flower".
But he also noted that in the Tolkien household, "there was already a well-established tradition of frivolous elves in The Father Christmas Letters, and these probably had a greater impact on the depiction of elves in The Hobbit than any other single factor, since both those annual letters and Mr Baggins' story were originally written for the same audience: Tolkien's own children."
No wonder these take-offs of Tolkien's Christmas elves are singing a song which seems to be reminiscent of that season!
And it's no surprise that they already know a bit about Bilbo and company: remember that Gandalf had already met "two of Elrond's people", and so they had returned to Rivendell with information regarding this expected company.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Apr 7 2009, 10:03am
Post #10 of 33
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Why are the Elves singing a nonsense song? Is there any meaning or significance to it? Would this song have any appeal to children? Would it work better with music than as poetry?
The song reminds me of an Elizabethan madrigal. Here's one example, called Now is the Month of Maying:
Now is the month of maying,
When merry lads are playing, fa la,
Each with his bonny lass
Upon the greeny grass. Fa la.
The Spring, clad all in gladness,
Doth laugh at Winter's sadness, fa la,
And to the bagpipe's sound
The nymphs tread out their ground. Fa la.
Fie then! why sit we musing,
Youth's sweet delight refusing? Fa la.
Say, dainty nymphs, and speak,
Shall we play at barley-break? Fa la.
Shakespeare sometimes uses this form in his songs, and the Elves' song reminds me of this chorus, from Blow, Blow, Thou Winter Wind:
Heigh ho! sing heigh ho! unto the green holly:
Most friendship is feigning, most loving mere folly:
Then, heigh ho! the holly!
This life is most jolly.
Or how about the nonsense words in this one:
It was a lover and his lass,
With a hey, and a ho, and a hey nonino
That o'er the green cornfields did pass.
In spring time, the only pretty ring time,
When birds do sing, hey ding a ding a ding;
Sweet lovers love the spring.
These are all meant to be sung, not read, and so I think is the Elves' song.
Would this song have any appeal to children? Would it work better with music than as poetry?
I'm guessing that well brought up English children of Tolkien's day would have sung madrigals in school (we did, and we weren't especially well brought up....). And their parents would have known the kind of tune that went with these sorts of words. Definitely the words work better with music than as poetry - the nonsense words are there just to work with the music, I assume. So I think it's best to imagine a tune when you read, or if you're reading aloud, to sing the words to some simple tune.
These songs are often about nature, and they often seem to mention nymphs or fairy-folk of one kind or another. So for me it works as a light-hearted introduction to the Elves.
Why does Tolkien introduce Elves with a “ridiculous” song? How does this introduction compare to his introduction to the Dwarves? How do the songs of the two races compare?
The Elves are dour and Northern. They take themselves very seriously, and have little tolerance for others' different view of things. They seem to come straight out of Norse mythology. The Elves, by contrast, are more southern - maybe Celtic, as seen through the prism of medieval Celtic literature. They are quick-witted and humorous, and very aware of other people's points of view - they see Bilbo's naivety and they tease him about it. (Although, to be fair to the Dwarves, their song about Bilbo Baggins' plates shows that they also got the measure of Bilbo eventually, and have a sense of humour too!)
Compare this song with that other nonsense song, Bombadil’s.
For some reason, Bombadil's song reminds me more of English folk songs. Blow Away the Morning Dew and that kind of thing. I don't know if it's to do with the metre, perhaps?
Is there any way at all that this could be handled intelligently in the movie?
Bearing in mind that the Elves are just teasing Bilbo, adapting themselves to him rather than expressing their own deeper natures, who knows? There are a few shots of laughing Elves that didn't make it into the more serious LotR, so some of that side of them might make it into The Hobbit movie. (Not necessarily by Howard Shore, by the way - most of the "diagetic", i.e. story-internal, music in the films was not composed by him. The Elves' singing in the scene where Frodo and Sam see the Elves in the woods, for example, was done by the same New Zealand group who did the music for the Party.)
“Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars, not if you care for such things.” Really, considering the ridiculous nonsense songs that we’ve just encountered?
It's all in the "not if you care for such things." It's a bit of a challenge, I suppose. Can you see beyond the silliness to the elegance of the form? If you've seen A Midsummer Night's Dream, for example, you might get a bit of an idea how Elvish singing, provided you "care for such things", could be quite enchanting.
What do these particular Elves (as opposed to Elrond himself, or Gandalf’s friends that he had encountered in the previous chapter) know about Bilbo’s business? Why do they know anything? What do you suppose their opinion of his adventure might be?
It's rather like Frodo's astonishment about what Gildor knows about his business. Elves obviously keep themselves informed - they can travel swiftly and silently, and they see things no-one knows they've seen. It gives them that air of magical wisdom that so impresses the hobbits. Gandalf uses knowledge in the same way. They say that knowledge is power, and maybe it's also magic.
What do you suppose their opinion of his adventure might be?
Whatever it is, we know they won't tell him. Elves always say both no and yes - they know too much about the complexities of the world to be willing to give a clear direction to one individual. It's a bit like the Prime Directive - you don't want to accidentally bias the natural order of things.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Elven
Doriath
Apr 7 2009, 11:08am
Post #11 of 33
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Some tra-la-la-la-lally thoughts ...
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Why are the Elves singing a nonsense song? Is there any meaning or significance to it? Would this song have any appeal to children? Would it work better with music than as poetry?
If you take out the 'O!'at the beginning of the verses, and tone down the O! tra-la-la-lally in the song, and stifle the ha! ha!'s - the words aren't that bad - and it does make sense ... ... and .. *thwack*
Why does Tolkien introduce Elves with a “ridiculous” song? How does this introduction compare to his introduction to the Dwarves? How do the songs of the two races compare?
I think the Elves song is one of welcome, and in good humour. I'd rather like to arrive to that song than the Dwarves song.
Compare this song with that other nonsense song, Bombadil’s.
It may have been a phase ME were going through ... like 1958 top hits - Flying Purple People Eater, Great Balls of Fire, Good Golly Miss Molly ...
Is there any way at all that this could be handled intelligently in the movie?
Yes, definately. I think under the hand of Howard and the team, if this song of the Elves was included, I think they would do it justice. Maybe it would be better not to see the Elves who sing this, but an introduction (Choral/Harmonics as has been mentioned) to the Company entering the valley. If it is used as a background, and (will be) the first introduction to the Elves, it might also be part of the Elvish type singing we have already heard in Rivendell/Lothlorien in ROTK.
After the Elves greet the travelers, they offer to let the company stay with them and sing, or to let them go on to the House for supper. We are told that “Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars, not if you care for such things.”
Really, considering the ridiculous nonsense songs that we’ve just encountered?
(That would be the air-guitar solo thats never mentioned )
... as for singing under the stars, I think this aims to alert the reader that elves are somehow 'special' - something which has to be experienced and not just told about.
Bilbo would have preferred to stay, but his companions prefer to go on to supper.
What does that tell us about Bilbo? Would any other hobbits (including our heroes from LOTR) have shared that choice?
Considering that he must be very hungry at this moment, as well as tired, I think it shows a deeper inquisitive side of Bilbo - there would always be food, but right now, the Elves had taken all his attention. (away from his empty stomach)
Cheers
Elven x
Swishtail.
Tolkien was a Capricorn!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn!!
Avatar: Liberace - The other Lord of the Rings.
Quote of The Week: The thing is I always write in the morning, and I know that if I go to the Net I won’t write ... you can start in the most scholarly website and end up at Paris Hilton dot com .. GdT
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Morthoron
Hithlum
Apr 7 2009, 12:30pm
Post #12 of 33
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Why are the Elves singing a nonsense song? Is there any meaning or significance to it? Would this song have any appeal to children? Would it work better with music than as poetry?
Why does Tolkien introduce Elves with a “ridiculous” song? How does this introduction compare to his introduction to the Dwarves? How do the songs of the two races compare?
The silly Elves in The Hobbit are as far from Tolkien's fierce and haughty Noldor as can be. This sequence is one of the most incongruous to the rest of Tolkien's corpus, and is a less-than-subtle reminder to us all that The Hobbit was meant to be a stand-alone piece for children, and not part of the tales compiled in The Silmarillion. One cannot imagine an Elven barbershop quartet of Erestor, Glorfindel and the sons of Elrond singing nonsense verse.
Is there any way at all that this could be handled intelligently in the movie?
Not in its current form. Even Peter Jackson had the Elves of Rivendell appear as graceful and noble, and the Elvish songs in the movies are ethereal and serious in tone. Refer to the procession of Elves that was taking Arwen to the Gray Havens, and the accompanying song. There is little that can be done with Tra-la-tra-lally that would compensate for the difference in tone.
Read the ongoing serialization of MONTY PYTHON'S 'The HOBBIT', found here:
http://www.fanfiction.net/...y_Pythons_The_Hobbit
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Apr 7 2009, 12:31pm)
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sador
Gondolin
Apr 7 2009, 12:53pm
Post #13 of 33
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A few answers, some to the point
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as ridiculous as the one I have written down in full”.
Why are the Elves singing a nonsense song? Is there any meaning or significance to it?
It impresses upon the dwarves that much is known about them, and that the elves find it amusing.
Would this song have any appeal to children?
Possibly. Also to the grown-up children who enjoy stuff like BotR.
Would it work better with music than as poetry?
It couldn't work worse.  Yes, I guess it does.
Why does Tolkien introduce Elves with a “ridiculous” song?
Maybe to put the reader at ease with them? What we know about elves so far, is that Bilbo considered visiting them a sinister type of adventure.
How does this introduction compare to his introduction to the Dwarves?
Tolkien doesn't say the dwarves are ridiculous - but the reader can easily make the conjecture himself.
How do the songs of the two races compare?
The dwarves' song is serious, and it does awake a long dormant desire for adventure in Bilbo's heart. The elves song seems to nearly charm Bilbo to staying and listening to them - more sirens than sybills.
Compare this song with that other nonsense song, Bombadil’s.
Tom's song seems more sophisticated, as the nonesnse is less in ratio to the actual words.
Is there any way at all that this could be handled intelligently in the movie?
It could be firmly manhandled off the set.
Really, considering the ridiculous nonsense songs that we’ve just encountered?
If you care for such things.
What does that tell us about Bilbo?
That he cares for such things. He likes being made ridiculous.
Would any other hobbits (including our heroes from LOTR) have shared that choice?
Sam might.
What do these particular Elves (as opposed to Elrond himself, or Gandalf’s friends that he had encountered in the previous chapter) know about Bilbo’s business?
It seems anyone knows more about it than Bilbo himself does.
Why do they know anything?
Tolkien notes that elves seem to know a lot, whether it was their business or not. Lindir was an exception - the prig!
What do you suppose their opinion of his adventure might be?
They would find it amusing.
But one thing I would like to know - did they forget Thorin's name? I were they just being ridiculous at his expense? I assume it was the latter, and his monstrous huff was due to his realising and resenting this.
"Sone elves have over merry tongues" - Gandalf
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 7 2009, 9:30pm
Post #14 of 33
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Someone at this board referred to Legolas as "goofy", and that got my eyes open. I noticed, then, that his dialogue often shows a weird sense of humor, a sort of deliberate silliness by which an immortal being could stave off losing his mind. I could see him singing "Tra-la-la-lally" just to bug non-elves! And as this song obviously had the dwarves and Bilbo in mind, I wouldn't put it past the Rivendell elves.
I have seen this in medicine people, a goofy and often exasperatingly silly sense of humor that throws people off guard, gets them to relax in the presence of someone with eerie knowledge, keeps people grounded when they're about to encounter mysteries, and reminds us all of the perils of taking anything too seriously, especially ourselves. There is also, truth be told, just a wee touch of patronization to it.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 7 2009, 9:40pm
Post #15 of 33
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One cannot imagine an Elven barbershop quartet of Erestor, Glorfindel and the sons of Elrond singing nonsense verse.
I sure can! I love it! Thank you so much for that image, Morthoron!
We're dealing with immortals here, after all. They have to be a bit of everything sooner or later. It would just be too miserable to be solemn for thousands of years on end.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 7 2009, 9:42pm
Post #16 of 33
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
Apr 7 2009, 11:11pm
Post #17 of 33
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It gets even sillier in my head.
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As I child, I read, "Just then there came burst of song like laughter in the trees."
Also, "So they laughed and sang in the trees."
To my literal child's mind, I actually pictured Elves IN the trees, standing on limbs or even hanging upside down from them. They were also small (about two feet tall), three-dimensional, cartoon-like, and dressed in red with white trim, wearing pointy hats that stuck up straight. Of course, the song is in a major key, too.
There is absolutely no reconciling such an image with that of the Elves in LOTR, LOL!
I really don't see any way it could be handled "intelligently" in the films and still keep the childlike spirit I feel when I read this. Oh, sure, they could try to dress it up with a "madrigal" treatment, but I just don't see that as what the Elves are really doing here!
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The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Apr 7 2009, 11:11pm
Post #18 of 33
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I'm leafing through the book trying to find an example, and coming up a little short, but Legolas is definitely funny sometimes. Like running away over the snow at Caradhras and talking about going to find the sun, saying as they're leaving Lothlorien that he doesn't want to drown his grief in cold water, or when they meet Merry and Pippin at Isengard and he wants to know how they go the wine, or his counting game with Gimli. Or saying that he would pay to be excused from visiting the caves. And now that I think of it, Legolas came up with a saying that has sustained me in trying times: "Up with your beard!" He does seem to have a light heart. And patronizing? Oh, yes. Talking about feeling almost young for the first time since he was travelling with "you children."
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Apr 7 2009, 11:12pm)
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Apr 8 2009, 12:34am
Post #19 of 33
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I've always thought at least some of them were. OK, maybe no pointy hats, though.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Apr 8 2009, 12:46am
Post #20 of 33
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There's Elves and there's Elves
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as Sam says: "Some like kings, terrible and splendid; and some as merry as children."
I'd say that most of the former are Noldor; and Legolas, being a "young" Sindar, would fall in the "merry" category, wouldn't he!
Never mind Gimli, it's actually that Elf who is the "comic relief" - or, as Dreamdeer noted, it could be just his way of having to deal with travelling with a bunch of non-Elves! 
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
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Apr 8 2009, 12:58am
Post #21 of 33
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They didn't forget about Thorin...
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...it's just that his name is so hard to rhyme with anything!
What brings Master Thorin
To hear songs so borin'...
From Dwarf-lands so foreign...
'Neath waterfalls pourin'...
Who soon will be snorin'...
Nope, just doesn't work - and he should be glad of that!
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 8 2009, 10:12am
Post #22 of 33
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They don't have to be two feet tall to be in the trees.
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I've always pictured them in the trees as well. In LotR, the elves of Lothlorien were in the trees.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 8 2009, 3:24pm
Post #23 of 33
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Yes indeed--and there's also something either in the Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales where an elf-maiden of lowly statures steps up to testify on Turin's behalf, when, in awe of Thingol, she blurts out, "I was sitting in a tree..." and freezes up before she can continue with what she saw there. In kindly exasperation, Thingol says something to the effect of, "Yes? There is nothing unusual about that..." and coaxes her to give the rest of her testimony.
So, elves hang out in trees.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
Apr 8 2009, 5:36pm
Post #24 of 33
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I meant to write “two-dimensional”,
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not three. Like cardboard cutouts, only more detailed than Cartman and the rest of the Southpark “cast”. :D
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The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Apr 8 2009, 5:40pm
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Nellas was an Elf-maiden who befriended Túrin in his childhood, and then testified on his behalf after he fled Doriath. She appears in both the version of the Narn in UT, and in The Children of Húrin, but unfortunately, she was removed from The Silmarillion. There is a wonderful pencil sketch in The Children of Húrin (probably my favorite in the book), of her sitting in a tree at the beginning of the chapter "Túrin in Doriath".
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
[url=http://www.arda-reconstructed.com]www.arda-reconstructed.com
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