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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Apr 3 2009, 2:18pm
Post #1 of 46
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The Hobbit Discussion: "Roast Mutton" part 5
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This was a short chapter and this last discussion post will be shortest of all because I'm leaving the house in 20 minutes to go to my Kindergartner's class play and tea party. (long-expected  )
Having taken care of the trolls, Gandalf urges Thorin & Co. to find the trolls' cave. After all their efforts to open the door fail, Bilbo pulls out a key that he found on the ground.
1. Why on earth didn't he mention it before?
Upon entering the smelly cave, they find bones, food, pots of gold coins, clothes hanging on the walls, and several swords.
2. Do you find it strange that the food is strewn about but the clothes of victims are hanging on the walls nice and neat?
Gandalf and Thorin each take the swords that have beautiful scabbards and jeweled hilts. Bilbo takes a knife in a leather sheath.
3. Some have commented on the party's lack of weaponry already. Any further discussion?
The group eats, drinks, sleeps, then buries the pots of gold -- putting "a great many spells over them" -- and heads East again.
4. Why not divvy it up and bring it along? Also, what do all the spells do exactly?
Gandalf reveals that the road will become dangerous and difficult, and that he met some elves from Rivendell who warned him about the trolls.
5. Describe these elves.
6. My Annotated Hobbit quotes Michael Tolkien as saying that at one point the children all thought the troll chapter was the best chapter in the book. Do you share that opinion? Has it ever been your favorite?
Thanks for the great discussion, y'all!
Where's Frodo?
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 3 2009, 3:11pm
Post #2 of 46
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Having taken care of the trolls, Gandalf urges Thorin & Co. to find the trolls' cave. After all their efforts to open the door fail, Bilbo pulls out a key that he found on the ground.
1. Why on earth didn't he mention it before?
Because it's hard to mention things when you're convinced that you're in the company of experts and you feel like you couldn't possibly contribute anything of any importance. (I remember the early days of my marriage, before my husband helped me shed years of brainwashing, when the arguments so often started with, "Why didn't you tell me?")
2. Do you find it strange that the food is strewn about but the clothes of victims are hanging on the walls nice and neat?
Actually, no. Slobs often keep tidy what they intend to sell, while all around lies in a mess. (Okay--guilty as charged!) Which brings up an interesting question? Who fences for trolls? Some ancestor of Bill Ferny, perhaps?
3. Some have commented on the party's lack of weaponry already. Any further discussion?
In terms of storytelling, this shows how completely unprepared the dwarves are for their adventure, packing an orchestra but no weaponry? They have probably daydreamed about getting their gold back for years on a purely romantic level without any practical idea of how to do it except to hit the road as soon as they could earn the funds. Yet they have a learning-curve to climb along with Bilbo. This makes for a better story, because had they carried an ounce of sense between the thirteen of them, Bilbo wouldn't have had the chance to learn right along with them.
In terms of symbolism, one has to earn one's sword, even if it's by the errors from which one learns. Paradoxically, they can't get their swords until they've survived their first engagement. They have taken a step towards "manhood" simply by being forced to admit that they need weapons in the first place.
4. Why not divvy it up and bring it along? Also, what do all the spells do exactly?
Because gold's heavier than paper-money, and they're headed out to where they can't purchase anything even if they wanted to, so why burden themselves?
As for what the spells do, I'd imagine that they keep the gold hidden to anyone but the rightful owners.
5. Describe these elves.
We never see them, so we can't definitively describe them, but they're Elrond's folk, so they might be any kind under the sun. He drew to himself scholars of all races. Between him and Celebrian, they have the blood of every ethnicity of western elves in their family, and doubtless draw upon more of all kinds that can reach Rivendell.
6. My Annotated Hobbit quotes Michael Tolkien as saying that at one point the children all thought the troll chapter was the best chapter in the book. Do you share that opinion? Has it ever been your favorite?
[
Pass. I have a hard time choosing favorites. I like different chapters for different reasons. Certainly this one has a rich balance of humor and tension in it.
Thanks for the great discussion, y'all!
And thank you for your enjoyable offerings!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 3 2009, 3:37pm
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Even here, long before they reach Smaug, the party, including Gandalf, is much more concerned with treasure than in LotR. This reminds me of Dungeons and Dragons. Or a pirate story.
The only treasure I remember anyone finding in LotR was the treasure from the Barrow-Mound, which Bombadil mostly spread for all to take, only keeping one token item for Goldberry and giving a few knives for the hobbits. That's a very different attitude towards treasure. There's no attempt to find treasure in Moria, for example, and Aragorn quite loudly proclaims that he isn't interested in treasure in the Paths of the Dead. LotR is in the nature of a Holy Quest -- The Hobbit, at least on the surface, is not.
Having taken care of the trolls, Gandalf urges Thorin & Co. to find the trolls' cave. After all their efforts to open the door fail, Bilbo pulls out a key that he found on the ground.
1. Why on earth didn't he mention it before?
After the debacle he nearly caused with the trolls, and the shaming he got for it (even though the dwarves put him up to it in the first place and then followed it up with their own stupidity), perhaps Bilbo was afraid to open his mouth. Or perhaps he took some secret pleasure in seeing the dwarves bruise their shoulders against the door for a while.
Why didn't the dwarves think to look for a key? The keyhole is pretty obvious, no? There should be a key, unless it turned to stone with the trolls.
(By the way, why would the trolls' clothes also turn to stone? Were they part of the same enchantment? Maybe. Did they ever change clothes? Maybe not, since the clothes they found were too small for trolls.)
Bilbo finding the key is the first example of the luck Bilbo brings the party.
Upon entering the smelly cave, they find bones, food, pots of gold coins, clothes hanging on the walls, and several swords.
2. Do you find it strange that the food is strewn about but the clothes of victims are hanging on the walls nice and neat?
Well, it doesn't say that they were hanging nice and neat. Just hanging. What the narrator doesn't mention is anything about partially-eaten people -- I suppose that might have been among the bones and food that was not fit to eat. And we do know from the dwarves that it has been a while since they've eaten manflesh.
Where do the trolls spend their money or fence their goods? With ruffians, or bad people like Bill Ferny? What do they get in return? Or do the trolls just collect whatever they find without any notion of value, or any plan to use it for commerce? The latter seems likely.
Who were these travellers with swords of reknown and pots of gold coins? If they were Rangers or Elves or the like, wouldn't they have been known to Elrond or Gandalf? Surely goblins would not have carried these blades with them. But maybe bad men, ruffians or graverobbers -- although how these blades escaped the Fall of Gondolin and sinking of Beleriand is still a mystery.
Gandalf and Thorin each take the swords that have beautiful scabbards and jeweled hilts. Bilbo takes a knife in a leather sheath.
3. Some have commented on the party's lack of weaponry already. Any further discussion?
Nothing to add to what I said previously. It seems that the dwarves are nearly as domestic as Bilbo, although Thorin had some fighting experience long ago.
The group eats, drinks, sleeps, then buries the pots of gold -- putting "a great many spells over them" -- and heads East again.
4. Why not divvy it up and bring it along? Also, what do all the spells do exactly?
Pots of gold coins are heavy, and probably more than they need for this trip. They may have taken a few, or perhaps they already have the money they need -- after all, the dwarves were well fed and richly dressed. Like Bilbo, they aren't in this adventure entirely for the money.
The spells may make it hard for others to find the treasure, who knows? Such spells seem uncharacteristic for the dwarves -- why don't they use spells later, when they get in trouble, or earlier, with the trolls? Although Thorin did manage that trick with his smoke rings. Perhaps, though, Gandalf deigned to cast a spell. Or perhaps this is the kind of spell we find on the secret door to Smaug's treasure -- something that makes the buried treasure blend into the land, and only open under the right set of circumstances. Perhaps dwarf spells are quite good for hiding treasure or improving weapons and armor, and quite bad for anything else, like invisibility or fireballs or healing.
5. Describe these elves.
Technically, we don't even know if they are elves. They are two of Elrond's people, friends of Gandalf from Rivendell, and the reader, like Bilbo, has no idea what that means at this point. Tolkien plays it coy for the readers' benefit.
But we do know that the two friends Gandalf met were afraid of the trolls, and didn't seem to feel any responsibility for dealing with the trolls -- which doesn't sound like Elrond's sons, for example, or the Rangers, or Glorfindel, or for that matter any of the High Elves. These sound like the ordinary elves, who are supposed to be more common, and more like ordinary men.
6. My Annotated Hobbit quotes Michael Tolkien as saying that at one point the children all thought the troll chapter was the best chapter in the book. Do you share that opinion? Has it ever been your favorite?
It's one of my favorites, but probably not my very favorite. I prefer chapter one, An Unexpected Party, and according to a Pollantir poll I ran, lots of other people picked that as their favorite too. The next most popular choice was Inside Information, where Bilbo meets Smaug. Riddles in the Dark was third. However, Roast Mutton was tied for fourth with Barrels out of Bonds.
By the way, I also asked for the least favorite chapter. I'm afraid that next week's chapter, A Short Rest, tied with Flies and Spiders. But there was no great consensus, I judge, and no one commented on why A Short Rest was their least favorite.
By the way, it's not too late to vote! Unless of course you already voted.
Thanks for the great discussion, y'all!
Thank you!
(This post was edited by Curious on Apr 3 2009, 3:38pm)
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 3 2009, 4:01pm
Post #4 of 46
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"Who wants to see my map of Tasmania?"
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1. Why on earth didn't he mention it before?
There is getting to be something rather Harry Potter-like about Bilbo. Perhaps Bilbo didn’t realize the significance of the key. Perhaps he was getting a bit of his own back by letting them get bothered trying to open it after their attitudes towards him. Perhaps he was setting the stage for a triumphant revelation.
Of course the greatest omission will occur later, regarding finding the ring.
BTW, this somehow mirrors the Gates of Moria scene. Perhaps thirteen dwarves wouldn’t have been as useful there either.
Upon entering the smelly cave, they find bones, food, pots of gold coins, clothes hanging on the walls, and several swords.
2. Do you find it strange that the food is strewn about but the clothes of victims are hanging on the walls nice and neat?
Not if the remains of the victims are still in them.
Kind of reminds me of the lair of Grendel’s mother.
And I wonder about the state of the food strewn about: Salted? Cooked? Raw? Roasted? Minced? Squashed to jelly?
Gandalf and Thorin each take the swords that have beautiful scabbards and jeweled hilts. Bilbo takes a knife in a leather sheath.
3. Some have commented on the party's lack of weaponry already. Any further discussion?
“Two caught their eyes particularly, because of their beautiful scabbards and jewelled hilts.”
The taking would seem to be more out of greed than of need.
The group eats, drinks, sleeps, then buries the pots of gold -- putting "a great many spells over them" -- …
Dwarves got spells!!
…and heads East again.
4. Why not divvy it up and bring it along?
Besides all the bother of the extra weight? See the discussion about divvying versus not divvying treasure in “The Treasure of Sierra Madre” (1948).
Also, what do all the spells do exactly?
Counterspells to confound gold-finding spells, misdirection spells so anyone digging in that spot curiously misses the treasure, damaging spells to explode in the face of anyone who actually finds the treasure, and cursing spells on anyone who takes the treasure.
Gandalf reveals that the road will become dangerous and difficult, and that he met some elves from Rivendell who warned him about the trolls.
5. Describe these elves.
“They were hurrying along for fear of the trolls.”
Well, it sure wasn’t Glorfindel, Gildor Inglorian, or Elrohir and Elladan.
Obviously they were wimpy tra-la-lally Elves. They're dressed in puce, have stiff lace collars, and carry rose scented handkerchiefs stuffed up their velvet sleeves. Their hair is big and poofy, probably with highlights and hair extensions. They also wear too much foundation and eye makeup. Their names are Felicia and Bernadette and they're looking for Mitzi because their lavender colored wagon (named Priscilla) broke down.
6. My Annotated Hobbit quotes Michael Tolkien as saying that at one point the children all thought the troll chapter was the best chapter in the book. Do you share that opinion?
Monsters, peril, and hidden treasure? What’s not to like?
Has it ever been your favorite?
I like the one with Arwen bathing in the streams at Rivendell, but that’s just me.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 3 2009, 4:09pm
Post #5 of 46
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Now, now. Arwen was in Lothlorien
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for quite a few years yet, according to LotR, Appendix A. So you'll have to imagine Felicia, Bernadette, and Mitzi bathing in Rivendell.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 3 2009, 4:18pm
Post #6 of 46
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So you'll have to imagine Felicia, Bernadette, and Mitzi bathing in Rivendell.
My eyes!!!
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Doriath
Apr 3 2009, 7:47pm
Post #7 of 46
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if you'd rather imagine Glorfindel showering in the waterfalls of Rivendell...
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 3 2009, 7:49pm
Post #8 of 46
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That's only one third as bad. /
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******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Apr 3 2009, 7:51pm
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Your answers to 5 and 6 left me laughing out loud.
And "Dwarves got spells!" Good catch. I hadn't ever noticed it before. [Is that a reference to "Clams got legs!" or am I just finding imaginary connections again?]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 3 2009, 7:56pm
Post #10 of 46
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******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 4 2009, 3:08am
Post #11 of 46
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Tell him to take a break from his digging.
Okay, that was bad...I'll clam up now. (Yes, I got the reference, also!  )
This has some similarity to the Gates of Moria, but it's more closely aligned with the opening of the secret door at the Lonely Mountain. Notice that there, those Dwarves also start off by idiotically pushing at the door, while Bilbo is madly screaming at Thorin to get that key out and put it in the lock-hole, stupid! (But in not quite those words.)
(Curiously, in the original draft, Gandalf gives Thorin only the map in Chapter 1. They discover a "bunch of curious keys on a nail" in the Trolls' cave, which Bladorthin/Gandalf takes and attaches to his belt. In Rivendell, Elrond determines that the keys are all Troll-make except for one Dwarf-made, which Gandalf/Thorin then puts on a chain about his neck.)
You're correct about the curse spells! The original did specify both spells and curses were laid on the gold.
And excellent catch on the identity of those Elves - if Elves they were.  Now we know why Elrond wore those dresses...and he's really go to do something about that hair. Braids are just so Heidi.
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Elven
Doriath
Apr 4 2009, 4:10am
Post #12 of 46
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Some thoughts on Roast Mutton pt5
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Having taken care of the trolls, Gandalf urges Thorin & Co. to find the trolls' cave. After all their efforts to open the door fail, Bilbo pulls out a key that he found on the ground.
1. Why on earth didn't he mention it before?
Maybe he didnt have his wits about him after what he's been through?
and this reminds me of the gates to Moria = Hobbits and doors ...
He is in a strange environment and they are breaking into a Trolls cave - even that would be something strange to Bilbo.
To think trolls have keys is funny enough! To think theres a door to a cave which needs a key (in the middle of no where...) well, Bilbo may have not put 2&2 together that quickly.
______
Upon entering the smelly cave, they find bones, food, pots of gold coins, clothes hanging on the walls, and several swords.
2. Do you find it strange that the food is strewn about but the clothes of victims are hanging on the walls nice and neat?
Their trophies on a shelf.
_______
Gandalf and Thorin each take the swords that have beautiful scabbards and jeweled hilts. Bilbo takes a knife in a leather sheath.
3. Some have commented on the party's lack of weaponry already. Any further discussion?
This is a significant moment for the party and here we are introduced to a new character which enters LOTR.
But we dont know that yet.
________
The group eats, drinks, sleeps, then buries the pots of gold -- putting "a great many spells over them" -- and heads East again.
4. Why not divvy it up and bring it along? Also, what do all the spells do exactly?
Much too heavy to be carrying gold around - and it does make them a target along the road.
The spells may have been to sheild the spot from anyone coming into it - from 'natural disaster' - from anyone being able to dig it up if they did find it - from physically removing it - from spending or doing anything with it ...
_________
Hope you had a nice party and nothing 'unexpected' happened
Cheers
Elven x
Swishtail.
Tolkien was a Capricorn!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn!!
Avatar: Liberace - The other Lord of the Rings.
Quote of The Week: The thing is I always write in the morning, and I know that if I go to the Net I won’t write ... you can start in the most scholarly website and end up at Paris Hilton dot com .. GdT
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White Gull
Menegroth
Apr 4 2009, 6:39pm
Post #13 of 46
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This was a short chapter and this last discussion post will be shortest of all because I'm leaving the house in 20 minutes to go to my Kindergartner's class play and tea party. (long-expected ) Having taken care of the trolls, Gandalf urges Thorin & Co. to find the trolls' cave. After all their efforts to open the door fail, Bilbo pulls out a key that he found on the ground. 1. Why on earth didn't he mention it before? Bilbo likes secrets. Upon entering the smelly cave, they find bones, food, pots of gold coins, clothes hanging on the walls, and several swords. 2. Do you find it strange that the food is strewn about but the clothes of victims are hanging on the walls nice and neat? Food means a free for all. Clothes are a choice less important. Gandalf and Thorin each take the swords that have beautiful scabbards and jeweled hilts. Bilbo takes a knife in a leather sheath. 3. Some have commented on the party's lack of weaponry already. Any further discussion? Who would pass up such an opportunity. Who says they had no weapons before? The group eats, drinks, sleeps, then buries the pots of gold -- putting "a great many spells over them" -- and heads East again. 4. Why not divvy it up and bring it along? Also, what do all the spells do exactly? Too heavy, of course! And, I imagine the spells protect the treasure from discovery and pillage by others. Gandalf reveals that the road will become dangerous and difficult, and that he met some elves from Rivendell who warned him about the trolls. 5. Describe these elves. *draws a blank* 6. My Annotated Hobbit quotes Michael Tolkien as saying that at one point the children all thought the troll chapter was the best chapter in the book. Do you share that opinion? Has it ever been your favorite? I read the book when I was 14. Trolls were not the best part. I liked best Bilbo's escape from the Elves, his conquest (in mind) of Smaug, Bard's victory, and the homecoming. Thanks for the great discussion, y'all!
Poetry has been to me an exceeding great reward; it has soothed my affliction; it has multiplied and refined my enjoyments; it has endeared my solitude; it has given me the habit of wishing to discover the Good and Beautiful in all that meets and surrounds me.
-Samuel Taylor Coleridge
White Gull's Fanfic
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White Gull
Menegroth
Apr 4 2009, 6:43pm
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I thought you were a northerner.... I don't even say ya'll and I have southern lineage! 
Poetry has been to me an exceeding great reward; it has soothed my affliction; it has multiplied and refined my enjoyments; it has endeared my solitude; it has given me the habit of wishing to discover the Good and Beautiful in all that meets and surrounds me.
-Samuel Taylor Coleridge
White Gull's Fanfic
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White Gull
Menegroth
Apr 5 2009, 1:02am
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Poetry has been to me an exceeding great reward; it has soothed my affliction; it has multiplied and refined my enjoyments; it has endeared my solitude; it has given me the habit of wishing to discover the Good and Beautiful in all that meets and surrounds me.
-Samuel Taylor Coleridge
White Gull's Fanfic
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Apr 5 2009, 2:54am
Post #17 of 46
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I'm a mid-westerner, but y'all is too useful a word not to employ.//
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Where's Frodo?
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sador
Gondolin
Apr 5 2009, 6:03am
Post #18 of 46
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A few answers, some to the point
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1. Why on earth didn't he mention it before?
For the same reason he didn't mention the Ring or the Arkenstone while he could avoid it.
As Gandalf said, Bilbo does have the makings of a burglar.
2. Do you find it strange that the food is strewn about but the clothes of victims are hanging on the walls nice and neat?
I suppose the clothes are there for sale.
Or else they could be like teenagers - in some things doing exactly what Mommy told them, and in others the direct opposite.
3. Some have commented on the party's lack of weaponry already. Any further discussion?
I guess weapons were hard to get in Bywater.
But as a matter of fact - we do not relly need to assume a lack of weaponry. The goblins took everything they had, and only mentioned Orcrist to the Great Goblin, because it was such a famous blade. Gandalf snatched it from the guards for the same reason.
Yes, I know this is a UUT at best - but as a lack of weapons would mean both Thorin and Gandalf were completely harebrained, I would hold this as a defect of Tolkien as a storyteller rather than of the dwarves' total incompetence. And this is too glaring a defect. So I would rather add this detail (which might not have been mentioned in the book, simply because there is no need for it).
On the other hand, there might be a thing about magical quests, which means one has to find his weapons on the way. It might be an inherent defect in the genre.
4. Why not divvy it up and bring it along?
Where? It's not likely that the gold will help them much on the way, and if they succeed in their quest the will not need that puny amount.
But if they fail, and have to retreat back home - it would come handy.
Also, what do all the spells do exactly?
It could be covering the hiding place, like the dwarves' technique of hiding their doors. Or just another touch of magic.
5. Describe these elves.
The lass was freckled, and wore a green bandana.
The lad had a sword-cut above his left brow from a drunkard's scuffle.
6. My Annotated Hobbit quotes Michael Tolkien as saying that at one point the children all thought the troll chapter was the best chapter in the book. Do you share that opinion? Has it ever been your favorite?
I like it a lot. It's probably not my favourite, but I'm not quite sure I have a favourite chapter.
"There's more to come yet, or I'm mighty mistook" - Tom
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sador
Gondolin
Apr 5 2009, 6:18am
Post #19 of 46
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That the trolls never thought of either stewing or baking the dwarves - two of the first options the goblins mentioned in their song?
What does that say about their respective cultures?
"There's more to come yet, or I'm mighty mistook" - Tom
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Penthe
Mithlond
Apr 5 2009, 10:09am
Post #20 of 46
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Your elves sound deceptively like the Scarlet Pimpernel*. In which case a troll or three would surely pose no problem?
*Compared with a trio of drag queens and a bus, that is.
Now?
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 5 2009, 12:58pm
Post #21 of 46
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But as a matter of fact - we do not relly need to assume a lack of weaponry.
I suppose I assumed a lack of weaponry because no weapons were mentioned in the encounter with the trolls -- even Thorin, who was ready to fight, grabbed a burning brand from the fire rather than a sword. On the other hand, we could invent a UUT similar to the logic behind Aragorn using fire against the Nazgul -- perhaps swords don't work very well against trolls, with their flesh as hard as stone. We do have the evidence of Sam's song about the trolls -- a kick won't have any effect. So maybe Thorin had a sword or an axe and knew it wouldn't do him any good against trolls.
On the other hand, in LotR Aragorn was careful to explain the limitation of weapons against the Nazgul (which ironically didn't apply to the very weapons used by the hobbits). In The Hobbit we get no such explanation. Also, Thorin having no sword at the beginning of his journey is no more ridiculous than Aragorn carrying a broken sword from Bree to Rivendell. Also, when the hobbits (Bilbo in The Hobbit and all of the hobbits in LotR) return home from their adventures with swords and mail, the weapons and armor are considered outlandish in the land of the hobbits. Swords just don't seem to belong in hobbit lands. And the dwarves in The Hobbit do seem nearly as unaquainted with adventuring as Bilbo himself.
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squire
Gondolin
Apr 5 2009, 3:41pm
Post #22 of 46
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In a hole in the ground lived three big trolls...
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Some random comments on the chapter and its ending
I think we have discussed this before, but I don't remember there being a satisfying answer: Gandalf knows they have "a cave or a hole dug somewhere near" to hide from the sun. And so they do, but how does it have a door and a lock, if they have just come down from the mountains in the past few weeks or even months? Are trolls crafty?
The door is made of stone, and opens inward once unlocked. There is a keyhole in the stone door, with a lock mechanism. Imagine that! I can't.
What I mean is, I can't imagine it literally. This is magic fairy tale stuff, which we will see again both in The Hobbit and later in LotR (at Moria).
The idea of the trolls eating a village and a half between them since they have arrived in the district, reminds me of Smaug sneaking into Dale and carrying off maidens to eat. It's poetic, but what enchants these villages not to fight back? It seems characteristic of tales like these that there is no political or military leadership worth mentioning, so that helpless peasants and townsfolk are dependent on the arrival of the hero of the tale to free them from the oppressive monster. This idea is developed in Lake Town, now that I think of it. So our lovable "Three Stooges" trolls become a comic foreshadowing of Smaug.
Has anyone promulgated the basic biology of the two-headed or possibly three-headed trolls of Middle-earth? Beren IV?
I love the term "drawing-room fashion" to describe what the Trolls' speech is not. I dislike the later change to "debased form of Westron." Again, I believe we've discussed at least once what it must be like to read The Hobbit to children from parts of England where they and their parents talk exactly like the trolls - a modern day, politically correct quibble which I bet never occurred to Tolkien and which, given the cost and reading level of a book like The Hobbit, I bet never came up in real life either.
Taking the trolls' lair at face value, I like the way it's described, with the emphasis on the smell, and the narrator's apologetic admission that the clothes are the victims', not the trolls'. There is an element of parody of Bag End here - and looking further afield, the description of the trolls' hole has a disturbing resemblance to the hobbits' exploration of "Sharkey's End" at the finale of LotR.
I also like the sensible reminder that the dwarves have not slept and have little food, so that they settle down, eat the trolls' food and take naps until the afternoon. Much of Tolkien's effectiveness in his quest adventures comes from the constant reference to "housekeeping" matters like weather, food and sleep.
We are introduced in this chapter to the idea that valley mutton is sweeter than mountain mutton, an idea the Eagles will confirm for us, in song. I have often wondered why the hobbits seem not to keep sheep on all those green hills they have.
This is definitely one of my favorite chapters, and is also one of the best ones to read aloud to little ones in bed. Doing the voices well is a real challenge, but worth it.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 5 2009, 5:34pm
Post #23 of 46
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I never noticed that the door was stone before.
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It reminds me of the secret stone door in the Lonely Mountain, and it does make the trolls seem as adept with stone and locks as dwarves. As you note, both doors are fairy tale concepts, as are the spells the dwarves put on their buried treasure, and the trolls' pocket purse which speaks. So, of course, are the trolls themselves, as enchanted stone creatures.
Of course, why exactly does the Giant in Jack and the Beanstalk have a castle in the clouds with a goose that lays golden eggs and a magic harp and piles of gold? Most fairy tales don't worry about such backstory details, and in The Hobbit Tolkien gives much less attention to these details than in LotR. There's really very little backstory to The Hobbit, and what there is Tolkien tosses in rather randomly, without worrying about how swords from Gondolin could survive the War of Wrath, for example.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Apr 6 2009, 12:11am
Post #24 of 46
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Because no one asked about it!
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That's why Bilbo never mentioned the key!
Tokien implied that the key was William's. It most likely fell out of his pocket when Bilbo attempted to snitch his purse. So if Bilbo had not attempted that bit of petty larceny, the key would have become encased in the stone of the petrified Troll, and the troupe might never have found a way to get into the Troll's cave, and hence never acquired those blades of renown.
These Trolls' habits are the opposite of my son's: he leaves his food dishes stacked up neatly in his room (until I realize we're running out of plates, and get after him to take them to the kitchen), but his clothes are strewn all over.  Gotta be something inherent in those of the male persuasion to be selectively messy, right, fellow mom? 
Thanks for a fun week, FF!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 6 2009, 1:22am
Post #25 of 46
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Random comments on random comments
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Intriguing question on the cave with closeable door. Assuming that trolls plunder whatever they own, a clever orc might have built it before they ate him. I had originally assumed it was a plundered ice-cave before you brought up the stone door. (Before refrigeration, people lucky enough to live near both a cave and a body of water used to put doors on such caves--made out of wood, though. Then, in winter, the owner would cut blocks of ice from the river or what have you and fill the cave with them, sprinkling each block liberally with sawdust to further insulate them and slow melting. He would then rent out space in the cave to his neighbors for cold storage. They'd stay cold all year round.)
I'm not following you on the issue of accent being a moot point because people who talk like that would lack the money or the education to buy "The Hobbit". I would assume that working-class people in the UK aren't that much different from us folks in the USA. Granted, "The Hobbit" was the first brand-new book I ever owned, but I had plenty of used books, and regularly checked out more from the library. Indeed, I knew a bookseller with whom my brother and I had a barter deal going; we'd bring in old books that people didn't want anymore, and got one new-to-us book for every two that we turned over. I grew up in a house crammed with brick-and-plank bookshelves overflowing with books, so that you had to slip sideways down the hall, and more books stacked on various furnishings. So much for lacking money. As far as lacking education, what do you need beyond basic literacy?
If the trolls in "the Hobbit" had spoken like folks I knew, I wouldn't have thought of it, much, because Tolkien had already made fun of how rich people spoke, through Thorin. In any case, as a child I figured that Tolkien referred to the content of their speech rather than their accents as not being fit for the "drawing room," whatever that was. They wasted most of their breath on bickering and insults.
On the other hand, I agree with you wholeheartedly that Tolkien's attention to the sensible details of living, such as people needing rest after being up all night, really adds to the suspension of disbelief! (I always liked Tolkien's comment that "The Wind in the Willows" required disbelief not merely to be suspended, but hanged, drawn, and quartered! Although I admit to liking "The Wind in the Willows", too, despite its references to a frog parting his hair, owning a horse-drawn cart, etc.)
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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