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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Apr 2 2009, 2:13pm
Post #1 of 16
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The Hobbit Discussion: "Roast Mutton" part 4
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As Bilbo recovers at his leisure (sorry, Bilbo!) the dwarves start coming forward to investigate. Balin reaches the clearing first and upon seeing him, the trolls stop fighting and pop a sack over his head to trap him. Then they get more sacks ready, rightly expecting more dwarves to follow.
1. Couldn't Bilbo have warned the others at this point?
Thorin puts up the best defense by grabbing a burning branch from the fire, but is caught all the same. Then the trolls sit down to debate whether they should roast the dwarves, mince and boil them, or squash them into jelly. Bilbo is in a bush, forgotten by the trolls.
2. What, if anything, could Bilbo have done to help his friends at this point?
The trolls finally decide on roasting, but Gandalf, returning and lurking in the shadows somewhere, keeps the argument going by imitating the trolls' voices until the sun comes up.
3. "Dawn take you all, and be stone to you!" said a voice that sounded like William's. Does it puzzle you that Gandalf would say that line in William's voice instead of his own? Why or why not?
The trolls do indeed turn to stone when the first rays of sun come over the hill.
4. Why does daylight causes trolls to turn to stone? What kind of stone did they become?
Bilbo finally realizes it was Gandalf who kept the trolls arguing all night when Gandalf helps him out of the bush. Together they free the dwarves from their sacks.
5. Did the dwarves know that Gandalf was the one who was making the trolls fight when it was happening?
6. Any other comments on this section?
Where's Frodo?
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 2 2009, 3:30pm
Post #2 of 16
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1. Couldn't Bilbo have warned the others at this point?
Yes. Where's that owl call? On the other hand, couldn't the dwarves have gotten a clue somewhere along the way? "Hmm, that's the ninth dwarf who has disappeared up there. Maybe number ten will do the trick. Who's next?"
Could this be a poor attempt to try Gandalf's trick with Bilbo and Beorn? "Maybe they gave Bilbo some food. Let's go one or two at a time so we don't scare or irritate them. Remember, if there's a problem, hoot like an barn owl. Or was it a screech owl? Anyway, if we don't hear anything, we'll assume everything's okay."
Thorin puts up the best defense by grabbing a burning branch from the fire, but is caught all the same.
Why doesn't Thorin already have a sword or a axe? He's a dwarfsmith, after all, and he's going after a dragon, not to mention trouble along the way. For that matter, why aren't they all armed already? Why don't they all wear mail? Why don't they have mail and a dagger for Bilbo? Something tells me the dwarves have been making something other than weapons and mail the past hundred years. Thorin may have some experience fighting, but that battle seems to have taken place long ago. In this adventure the dwarves seem as unprepared for battle as Bilbo.
It's interesting that Bombur puts up a particularly good fight, almost as good as Thorin. Maybe he's fat like some NFL linemen, who are athletic enough in short bursts, and when running isn't involved.
Then the trolls sit down to debate whether they should roast the dwarves, mince and boil them, or squash them into jelly. Bilbo is in a bush, forgotten by the trolls.
2. What, if anything, could Bilbo have done to help his friends at this point?
Anything would have been better than nothing. Of course, if he were really good, he would have gotten the trolls to fight each other, like Gandalf did. Maybe Bilbo couldn't have imitated their voices like Gandalf, but he could have climbed a tree and tossed rocks at them, the way he later does with the spiders -- or the way the Brave Little Tailor did with the Giants.
The trolls finally decide on roasting, but Gandalf, returning and lurking in the shadows somewhere, keeps the argument going by imitating the trolls' voices until the sun comes up.
3. "Dawn take you all, and be stone to you!" said a voice that sounded like William's. Does it puzzle you that Gandalf would say that line in William's voice instead of his own? Why or why not?
Not really. Why should it? Maybe Gandalf was a method actor. Or Gandalf knew how to make an entrance, and didn't want to give his identity away to Bilbo and the dwarves -- yet.
4. Why does daylight causes trolls to turn to stone?
Presumably because they were enchanted stone creatures, although that seemingly contradicts the theory Tolkien later developed that evil magic could not create life. Perhaps the trolls contained some of the spirit of an evil sculptor, the way the Ring contains some of Sauron's evil spirit, or the way one of the Drúedain put some of his faithful spirit into a stone statue in the story "The Faithful Stone," from Unfinished Tales. Or maybe a stray wraith without a body was used to bring the stone to life, the way Sauron bound spirits into werewolves and the Silent Watchers. He is the Necromancer, after all -- and the Witch-king was his pupil, and used wraiths and wights as well. Perhaps the Witch-king created the trolls with necromancy long ago in Angmar, and set them loose.
What kind of stone did they become?
Whatever kind of stone they were made out of, I assume.
5. Did the dwarves know that Gandalf was the one who was making the trolls fight when it was happening?
Doubtful. If they were that smart they wouldn't have gotten caught in the first place.
6. Any other comments on this section?
Bilbo and the dwarves are spectacularly and comically incompetent in this story, but then so are the trolls when Gandalf gets involved. Bilbo got into trouble because he tried to do too much. And it took some courage to yell to Thorin after the trolls had forgotten about him. What Bilbo lacks is a role model. Gandalf gives him a lesson here, and perhaps, when confronted with the spiders in Mirkwood, Bilbo remembered what Gandalf did with the trolls. Of course, the ring also helps, but not as much as one might think -- after all, Bilbo was nearly invisible to the trolls already, if he had, like Gandalf, known how to take advantage of it.
The dwarves have courage too, although they don't make good use of it. But they don't learn from Gandalf, as far as I can tell. They lack Bilbo's skills, enhanced by the ring, and wit, enhanced by Gandalf's lessons. They are not Warriors, Heroes, or even Burglars. What they mostly have, besides courage, is an ownership right in Smaug's treasure (at least most of it) and cavern, and in the map and key provided by Gandalf. They have hired Bilbo to do the real work, and so far he hasn't impressed them. But he'll learn.
(This post was edited by Curious on Apr 2 2009, 3:34pm)
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 2 2009, 6:06pm
Post #3 of 16
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"One hoot if by land, two hoots if by sea..."
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As Bilbo recovers at his leisure (sorry, Bilbo!) the dwarves start coming forward to investigate.
“You must go on and find out all about that light, and what it is for, and if all is perfectly safe and canny,” said Thorin to the hobbit. “Now scuttle off, and come back quick, if all is well. If not, come back if you can! It you can’t, hoot twice like a barn-owl and once like a screech-owl, and we will do what we can.”
They were supposed to wait until Bilbo came back. If he was stuck and couldn’t come back then he was supposed to hoot. But he didn’t hoot, so the Dwarves shouldn’t have come up, especially since Bilbo didn’t come back quick.
Unless of course the Dwarves had heard someone imitating Bilbo hooting.
Come to think of it, William’s purse doesn’t say anything else the rest of the episode.
You think….?
Balin reaches the clearing first and upon seeing him, the trolls stop fighting and pop a sack over his head to trap him. Then they get more sacks ready, rightly expecting more dwarves to follow.
1. Couldn't Bilbo have warned the others at this point?
He has to realize what is happening, then figure out where the Dwarves are coming from, then maneuver over to where that is, then pick a spot where he can warn them without giving their position away. By the time he does all that the only one he manages to warn is Thorin, who ignores the warning and promptly gets captured anyway.
BTW, why is Thorin bringing up the rear? One would think that would be Bombur’s position.
“You can’t lead from behind.”
-General Longstreet, “Gettysburg” (2001)
Plus Thorin makes the common mistake of most blundering Federal generals in the War Between the States: He sends in his forces in "penny packets" so they are easily overwhelmed. Imagine if all thirteen Dwarves had arrived at the same time.
Thorin puts up the best defense by grabbing a burning branch from the fire, but is caught all the same.
Again, one is struck by the probability that Thorin chose the members of his Company more for loyalty rather than competence.
BTW, note this is Bilbo’s first fight:
“Bilbo did his best. He caught hold of Tom’s leg-as well as he could, it was thick as a young tree-trunk -but he was sent spinning up into the top of some bushes, when Tom kicked the sparks up in Thorin’s face.”
Then the trolls sit down to debate whether they should roast the dwarves, mince and boil them, or squash them into jelly. Bilbo is in a bush, forgotten by the trolls.
2. What, if anything, could Bilbo have done to help his friends at this point?
It’s kind of like Frodo’s moment of moral peril on the Barrow Downs. Or when he must leave his friends at Amon Hen.
Still Bilbo DID try to help with the fighting, and the Dwarves DID get themselves in this mess by getting impatient and ignoring their own rules of engagement.
The trolls finally decide on roasting, but Gandalf, returning and lurking in the shadows somewhere, keeps the argument going by imitating the trolls' voices until the sun comes up.
I wonder if he’s had lots of practice this night imitating voices, and perhaps hoot owls?
3. "Dawn take you all, and be stone to you!" said a voice that sounded like William's. Does it puzzle you that Gandalf would say that line in William's voice instead of his own?
Not if you think on it.
Why or why not?
He doesn’t want people to catch on to his talent at imitating sounds and voices. Might make some people start thinking.
The trolls do indeed turn to stone when the first rays of sun come over the hill.
4. Why does daylight causes trolls to turn to stone?
Dawn banishes Evil.
“And in that very moment, away behind in some courtyard of the City, a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war, welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn.”
What kind of stone did they become?
“… they go back to the stuff of the mountains they are made of…”
Bilbo finally realizes it was Gandalf who kept the trolls arguing all night when Gandalf helps him out of the bush. Together they free the dwarves from their sacks.
5. Did the dwarves know that Gandalf was the one who was making the trolls fight when it was happening?
No. If they did they might start thinking on other suspicious sounds and voices they might have heard earlier.
6. Any other comments on this section?
“What’s a burrahobbit?”
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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sador
Gondolin
Apr 2 2009, 9:49pm
Post #4 of 16
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A few answers, some to the point
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1. Couldn't Bilbo have warned the others at this point?
How?
I do not join the dwarf-bashing going on in this thread. The dwarves did not come to attack those who sit near the fire, but to look for Bilbo (that's what Balin is about). I suggest they did go in groups of three or four, but then scattered around the fire to look for their burglar.
Not the best procedure against three trolls with sacks, hiding in the shadows; but they are not really to blame for not thinking of that option, are they?
2. What, if anything, could Bilbo have done to help his friends at this point?
He's probably hoping the trolls forgot he offered them hios cooking services!
Although you question left me wondering - if trolls are indeed so dumb (recall Tolkien's suggestion of what a first-class burglar would have done to them), was it really impossible to quitely cut their sacks and set them free? I assume so, by Gandalf's not doing it.
3. "Dawn take you all, and be stone to you!" said a voice that sounded like William's. Does it puzzle you that Gandalf would say that line in William's voice instead of his own? Why or why not?
I did a bit. Such a formal declaration should have been said in the Queen's English (err, the Chieftain of the Dunedain's Westron), with a perfect accent and a clear powerful voice - not in an imitation of a dim-witted troll's voice, thick with alcohol and with a vocabulary and diction which would get him flunked out of any school!
Just think of how Saruman would have delivered this line!
4. Why does daylight causes trolls to turn to stone? What kind of stone did they become?
The stuff of the Mountains.
Now the Misty Mountains were raised by Melkor to hinder the riding of Orome; however they are high, and quite a few of them are hollow. The west side of them is a pretty wild land, while the east part seems more friendly, sloping down to the Great River which drains that side.
Which type ofstone are these Mountains? Ask a geologist.
5. Did the dwarves know that Gandalf was the one who was making the trolls fight when it was happening?
Of course they did! Every single dwarf, talking after the event, professed to realising who it was from the start.
If you chose to disbelieve them - that's your business.
6. Any other comments on this section?
Thirteen sacks seems quite a lot, considering the trolls were only camping for a night - doesn't it?
"There's more to come yet, or I'm mighty mistook" - Tom
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 2 2009, 10:05pm
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How many more sacks did they have? Why did they have all those sacks? Where did they carry them? What were they made of? Where did they get them?
Also, would dropping a sack over someone's head prevent them from crying out? I don't think so. Even putting a hand over the mouth doesn't necessarily stifle cries, plus it risks a nasty bite. It's best to choke them.
It's all very convenient, and not very realistic. Realistically, they probably would have killed them one by one. But then Gandalf would have arrived too late.
Nevertheless, I've never asked these questions before when reading this chapter. Because of the tone of the tale, which isn't very realistic, it just seems natural that the trolls would have thirteen sacks handy, and that once in the sacks the dwarves would not be able to make themselves heard.
Also, Tolkien glosses over the number of dwarves, moving quickly from Balin to Thorin, so that we don't get the full effect of this happening again and again and again and again and again and again and so on.
(This post was edited by Curious on Apr 2 2009, 10:06pm)
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 2 2009, 11:06pm
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Also, Tolkien glosses over the number of dwarves, moving quickly from Balin to Thorin, so that we don't get the full effect of this happening again and again and again and again and again and again and so on.
Kind of like the repetitive idiocy of the Somme: "Let's attack AGAIN! They'll never expect a full frontal assault a thirteenth time!"
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 2 2009, 11:37pm
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I could see Thorin as a WWI general.//
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 2 2009, 11:56pm
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Anyone who has had the occasion to carry lots of sacks knows that you bunch up most of the sacks and stuff them into the few remaining for easier transport. And no matter how many you have, sooner or later you will discover that you need more than you expected. As for slitting sacks open, you saw what happened when Bilbo tried that with the purse. Why shouldn't the sacks be equally enchanted? They might take a nip out of anyone who so much as squeaks, and if anyone set knife to them, they would howl bloody murder.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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sevilodorf
Dor-Lomin
Apr 3 2009, 12:42am
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The dwarves did not handle the situation very well. They heard the racket and the yells, yet still approach one by one. In this case, I'm going to blame Tolkien, (the dwarves were probably grumbling to him.. "no, no, this is a stupid plan. We should do it this way." But Tolkien wouldn't listen to them because he was still in the tell a story aloud mentality--- and a story for children at that.
What I really want to know is why these trolls turn to stone but the ones in LOTR do not? Apologies if this was discussed during Return of the King. Pippin fights a hill troll at the battle before the Black Gate, the sun is up... though veiled by the smoke and reeks of Mordor.
It's an inconsistency that is bothersome. As is the description of Bilbo and the dwarves' journey from Hobbiton to Rivendell compared with Frodo's and company. When (and I try not to at all) I look at such instances closely, I prefer to take LOTR as the "canon" over The Hobbit.
Is it a modern mindset that demands these imaginary worlds possess consistency? There were series prior to Tolkien that created their own "'verse".... Tarzan and John Carter of Mars are two that spring to mind --- is anyone familiar enough to know if they maintained their consistency or had similar incongruities from novel to novel?
Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
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acheron
Mithlond
Apr 3 2009, 1:22pm
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Somewhere Tolkien addresses the different trolls
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One of the Appendices maybe? The trolls such as Pippin fought were Olog-hai, who could stay out during the day and only spoke the Black Speech, whereas these are trolls that turn to stone and speak "a debased form of Westron", translated by Tolkien as pseudo-Cockney.
Like much else written later that refers to the Hobbit, it's a retcon, but that was the explanation.
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 3 2009, 1:49pm
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The Uruk-hai seem to be the result of a breeding program between men and orcs, but I have a hard time imagining breeding men with enchanted stone trolls. Maybe they were bread with giants such as those we will see in the Misty Mountains? Or maybe the Olog-hai had nothing to do with the enchanted stone trolls except that they were also large and strong? Tolkien does distinguish the two kinds of trolls, but never explains how the Olog-hai were bred.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 3 2009, 2:47pm
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Entwives. We know for a fact that they're missing, and the Ents looked everywhere for them. Somewhere Tolkien refers to trolls as a "mockery" of ents. What greater mockery could there be then a forcible breeding program between entwives and trolls? This could produce trolls with the capacity to endure the sun, as well as ents who cannot tolerate it (failures in the experiment.) We can imagine the later being locked out at daybreak to turn into petrified forests.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Apr 3 2009, 2:48pm)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 3 2009, 3:55pm
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I probably should have kept those thoughts to myself. Sometimes my mind just can't help speculating and filling in gaps, yet some gaps are better left unfilled and unconsidered.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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dernwyn
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Apr 4 2009, 2:18am
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Urg - but it's no less distasteful
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than the idea of Saruman breeding Orcs and Men; both ideas are intended to convey disgust at the lengths to which evil will go, to corrupt good.
I do appreciate the "dark humour" of the trollish Ents becoming a "petrified forest"! Have there ever been actual stories similar to that, to explain the presence of those stone-trees? And also, this reminds me of Lot's wife...
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 4 2009, 6:51pm
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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