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squire
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 12:57am
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LotR Open Discussion: What is the book about?
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Although this week has seen a number of fascinating discussions about The Lord of the Rings as a book, I thought I would offer up at least one more.
What is it about? Or, what is it primarily about?
Obviously, a loaded question. I would not dare to try to assign a single primary theme (“what it’s about” in fancier language) to a book so complex, had others - let's face it, had Tolkien - not already broken the ice.
In Letter 142, December 1953, Tolkien wrote to a Jesuit friend: “The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision…the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism. However that is very clumsily put, and sounds more self-important than I feel.”
In Letter 153, September 1954, Tolkien wrote: “…the whole matter from beginning to end [he refers to his legendarium here, i.e., the Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings] is mainly concerned with the relation of Creation to making and sub-creation (and subsidiarily with the related matter of ‘mortality’)…”
In Letter 165, June 1955, Tolkien wrote: “The remark about philology [in an earlier letter] was intended to allude to what is I think a primary ‘fact’ about my work, that it is all of a piece, and fundamentally linguistic in inspiration... [The Lord of the Rings] is to me, anyway, largely an essay in ‘linguistic aesthetic’, as I sometimes say to people who ask me ‘what is it all about?’”
In Letter 186, c. April 1956, Tolkien wrote: “I do not think that even Power or Domination is the real centre of my story… The real theme for me is about something much more permanent and difficult: Death and Immortality.” He repeated this insight in several later letters of the same period, the later 1950s.
Interesting train of thought there – I see Tolkien himself struggling to figure out what his book was “about” for several years. I need hardly add here that the famous “I wanted to create a mythology for England” misquote, as much as it applies, applies to his (early) efforts with the Silmarillion cycle. I don’t believe he ever meant The Lord of the Rings to play such a role in English literature.
Anyway, with three or four interesting leads from the author to consider and perhaps lay aside, let me ask if you would like to comment on what The Lord of the Rings is primarily “about” – to you?
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Curious
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 7:42am
Post #2 of 20
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And in "On Fairy-stories" Tolkien says
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that the best fairy-stories are about Fantasy, Recovery, Escape, and Consolation -- with the greatest Escape being Escape from Death, and the greatest Consolation being Consolation for Death. In that Consolation, Tolkien saw a far off gleam of Evangelium, i.e., the Good News of the Gospels.
I think "On Fairy-stories" (henceforth "OFS") offers a way to tie all these statements together. LotR is an exercise in Fantasy or sub-creation (OFS and Letter 153), with an emphasis on philological subcreation (OFS and Letter 165), which in turn helps us Recover our sense of wonder (OFS and Letter 153)). However the Fantasy also offers Escape from and Consolation for mortality or death (OFS, Letter 186 and others). And for Tolkien that Consolation is fundamentally Catholic, i.e., a far off gleam of Evangelium (OFS and Letter 142).
I also think, however, that Tolkien's success in creating a timeless tale with few or no topical references, and with only the most ambiguous relationship to the Primary World, allows readers to make it about almost anything they want it to be about. Anything as popular as LotR is bound to be interpreted differently by different readers. And I think that was by design, for Tolkien hated the idea of imposing his interpretation upon his readers. He allowed room for the skeptic and the believer, the conservative and the liberal, the Christian and the non-Christian, the warrior and the pacifist, the child and the adult, the radical and the reactionary, the anarchist and the monarchist, the upper class, middle class, and lower class, the imperialist and the romantic nationalist, the philologist and the non-philologist -- in other words, pretty much everyone except for the realist who despises fantasy -- and even the realist may find that LotR offers a sly commentary on the Primary World.
I also see something in LotR that I do not see in the outline of fairy-stories found in OFS -- I see a story beyond the Happy Ending, a story strongly tinged with melancholy, a story about our growing distance from Fairie in the modern, mundane, realist's world.
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Mar 22 2009, 8:00am
Post #3 of 20
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well... it's probably not as simple as
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this...
'Wuv, twoooo wuv...' (from The Princess Bride)
but there is this...
The Lakota believe everyone is born with one of the four gifts--Generosity, Courage, Strength, or Wisdom--and are to find the other three during their lives ...(from Into the West--a TNT mini-series)
and this...
'Centered on the bohemian ideals of truth, beauty, freedom, and love'... (from Moulin Rouge)
and this...
And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (1 Cor 13:13) NKJV
I see all these qualities/values--- generosity, courage, strength, wisdom; truth, beauty, freedom, love; faith, hope, and love in LotR. Maybe it's about seeing those good things and applying them in our world.
(This post was edited by batik on Mar 22 2009, 8:05am)
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 22 2009, 8:33am
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like any great work of literature. At first glance, it is a heroic adventure story set in a stirring fantasy world of war and wonder, good and evil, at the turning point of its history. A deeper look reveals philosophical significance to every detail the book contains, and deeper still there is religious symbolism everywhere you turn.
What is it about? In the loosest possible terms, it's about the distinction and conflict between good and evil, which is the one theme that permeates all of its many layers, from exciting adventure to didactic philosophy all of the way to the religion that served as part of its inspiration.
The paleobotanist is back!
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Curious
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 10:18am
Post #5 of 20
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Tolkien: LotR is like an onion.
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Me: It stinks?
Tolkien: Yes. No.
Me: Oh, it makes you cry.
Tolkien: No.
Me: Oh, if you leave it out in the sun, it gets all brown, start sproutin' little white hairs. Tolkien: NO. Layers. LotR has layers, an onion has layers. You get it? They both have layers. [sighs]
Me: Oh, they both have layers. Oh. You know, not everyone likes onions. Everybody loves cakes! Cakes have layers!
Tolkien: [restraining temper] I don't care...what everyone likes. LotR. Is not. Like a cake!
Me: You know what else everybody likes? Parfaits. Have you ever met a person, you say, "Let's get some parfait," they say, "Hell no, I don't like no parfait"? Parfaits are delicious.
Tolkien: NOOO!!! YOU DENSE, IRRITATING, READER! LotR is like an onion! End of story! Bye bye! [whispers] See you later! [pause]
Me: Parfaits may probably be the most delicious thing on the whole damn planet!
(With apologies to Shrek.)
(This post was edited by Curious on Mar 22 2009, 10:18am)
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Eledhwen
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 22 2009, 11:44am
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at its heart, and what I first responded to when I read LOTR for the first time as a child, was that it's a traditional quest, good triumphing over evil. It's about the courage it takes to defeat that evil and that "even the smallest person can change the course of the future".
More deeply, and I suppose sort of in line with Tolkien's earlier thinking, I do think it discusses the nature of power. Sauron's power is all evil. Saruman is corrupted by power. Aragorn resists the power of the Ring and in doing so gains the power of kingship. Gandalf's power is immense, but his real talent is in nurturing that of others to achieve the right end. Frodo - and Sam's - will power is ultimately what wins the day.
Really it's the complexity of themes that makes it such an interesting book though. If you could easily pin down what it was about, it wouldn't be such a good book!
Figwit Still Lives!
Calling for a Figwit cameo in The Hobbit since May 2008
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Morthoron
Hithlum
Mar 22 2009, 12:06pm
Post #7 of 20
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In the simplest terms, LotR is a coming-of-age tale wherein youthful humans are replaced by Hobbits, sort of like a 'Stand By Me' (King's 'The Body') or 'Oliver Twist' with sorcery added in. I don't mean to imply that Gandalf is really Fagin without the Dickensian idiom, but LotR is indeed a story of the growth of naive hayseed Hobbits into formidable warriors. If one considers that Samwise has been referred to as Frodo's 'batman' (and no, I'm not speaking of the Dark Knight, but rather an English officer's manservant), then the allusion to WWI and the progress of young English soldiers from their heady enlistment (Sam's anticipation at meeting Elves), to the harrowing experiences on the battlefield, and their return home as changed men (whether disillusioned and shattered, like Frodo, or ready to assume greater responsibilites, like Sam) is readily discernible.
Gandalf intimates to the Hobbits at Bree that they are ready to take up their responsibilities in the Shire, and that he will not be joining them in their fight. The Hobbits have, in a sense, been groomed through the entire story for the purpose of meeting the challenge and adversity of battling Sharkey in their homeland, and it is their personal journey through Middle-earth and the experience they've gained that allows them to meet that challenge (which is why I believe that Jackson utterly missed the point of the tale when he omitted the 'Scouring of the Shire' from his films -- I am aware of time limitations, but that section is the heart of the story). You can add the underlying symbolism of Catholicity and the veneer of Icelandic/Finlandic sagas if you wish, but for all intents and purposes, LotR is a coming-of-age story. All that's missing is the shaggy dog.
Read the ongoing serialization of MONTY PYTHON'S 'The HOBBIT', found here:
http://www.fanfiction.net/...y_Pythons_The_Hobbit
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Mar 22 2009, 12:10pm)
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Mar 22 2009, 7:17pm
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Here's what it's about for me:
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Far above the Ephel Dúath in the West the night-sky was still dim and pale. There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 22 2009, 10:51pm
Post #9 of 20
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Here Tolkien himself, in his own words, admits to a meaning to his books that surfaced "unconsciously so at first..."! That right there validates an archetypal approach as one legitimate way among many to examine his work. Tolkien knew and respected his unconscious mind's ability to insert content into his story. And when he found it there, he later consciously developed it.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 22 2009, 10:56pm
Post #10 of 20
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I like what you say here about the broad applicability of Tolkien's work. And that is key to understanding the archetypal approach. To ignore the writer's conscious intent does not mean having a cavalier attitude towards the writer's wishes, but honors his hope to achieve applicability to the lives of people whom he has never met and cannot fully even imagine--the writer's desire to write something larger than himself. Tolkien himself was not simultaneously all of these things, liberal and conservative, Christian and non-Christian, etc. yet he aimed to create a sort of Grail that would give each individual whatever would most nourish her.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 22 2009, 10:59pm
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So maybe it is an onion. Maybe that's true of a lot of multilayered things--the layers add up till you cry--there's so much to feel!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 22 2009, 11:03pm
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...and I would have given you different answers. And all of the answers would have been true. I can't even guess what my answers will be in the future. Nor do I have time to list every meaning that I have stumbled across so far. I guess the closest that I can say is that it's about us.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 11:24pm
Post #13 of 20
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That way the gas won't reach your eyes. 
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a.s.
Doriath
Mar 23 2009, 1:14am
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Providence, Free Will, and The Order of Grace.
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Yes, I really do think that's what it's about. At least, that's what it boils down to for me.
Also, I have regarded LOTR as "Frodo's Story" for many decades. I read with Frodocentricity. I no longer can read LOTR any other way.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana
Call Her Emily
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a.s.
Doriath
Mar 23 2009, 1:18am
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and what's YOUR answer, squire? //
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"an seileachan"
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana
Call Her Emily
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 23 2009, 3:21am
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Ah, but we meet Sam before we meet Frodo (although granted, Sam's talking about Frodo and Bilbo) and Sam has the last word. I see it as very much both of their stories, and not just in the conceit of their coauthoring the Red Book. But that's just me.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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sador
Gondolin
Mar 23 2009, 6:47am
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But I think the central figure is dependent on the theme. If it is about Death and Immortality, or about Mercy and Justice, it is clearly Frodo's story; if it is about the Exaltation of the Humble, or about Industry and Nature, Sam is more of the hero; if it is about Reconstronction of life with Divine Grace, I would chose Aragorn.
Personally, I have no idea what the book is really about. Possibly, about trying to do right in a world with no direct Revalation - which makes it more of a fable about real life, And that refers to everyone - from Gandalf and Galadriel to Ted Sandyman and Butterbur, with Eomer and Beregond in between.
At least that is the theme which resonants most with me.
"Let us join the throng!" - Kili
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a.s.
Doriath
Mar 23 2009, 10:12am
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Not arguing, necessarily. I know this answer amounts to an interpretation.
I see it as very much both of their stories, and not just in the conceit of their coauthoring the Red Book.
But Sam is written as Frodo's servant, and I think this was done purposely and not just because of the batmen of WWI. This is not to denegrate Sam, far from it. I think there is something about a servant role that Tolkien wants us to notice in particular, though. Frodo could not have gotten to Mordor, or out of the fire of Mordor, without Sam. It's important, this role of servant.
But nevertheless, Sam's role was to assist Frodo to do what Frodo did. Sam, with his quiet heroism, is Frodo's guard, succor and steady companion and that is his place in the story of ME. It's a valuable place, to be the servant, part of Tolkien's point, I think.
But it's Frodo's storyline that undergirds LOTR and, IMO, is what LOTR is "about".
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Madeleine L'Engle's A WRINKLE IN TIME was rejected 29 times. Just a thought, when feeling discouraged.
Call Her Emily
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simplyaven
Hithlum
Mar 23 2009, 2:57pm
Post #19 of 20
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Just like all good tales since the world was created and humans started to notice things around them, LOTR is about values in the broadest meaning of the word - to some it will be religion, to others - honour in battle. To me it has always been about values I personally treasure - friendship, love, honour, nobility, meaning of life, etc.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on the Main board!
I believe
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squire
Gondolin
Mar 23 2009, 10:06pm
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I'm a death and deathlessness man, myself.
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One, it obviously applies to the superimposed story of the departure of the immortal Elves and the rise of mortal Man - the larger Tolkien legendarium of which LotR is only a part, but an important part.
Two, the Ring is about both immortality for mortals, and more importantly Power over others. Power of that kind is driven by the need for Fame, which overcomes Death.
Three, the nature of story and tales, of which LotR is a surpassingly good example, is that they too live on and overcome Death.
Four, I think that's what Tolkien settled on, so why argue?
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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