|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 16 2009, 3:44am
Post #1 of 34
(2364 views)
Shortcut
|
|
LOTR Free Discussion: The Index.
|
Can't Post
|
|
This week the floor is open for posts about any aspect of The Lord of the Rings, either the whole book or any chapter, scene, character, theme, etc. Do you want to know what tree in LOTR is people's favorite? Have you been curious about which scene makes them sneeze the most? (Yes, I'm being ridiculous, so as not to step on your own ideas.) Do you have a follow-up question about "The Council of Elrond", that didn't occur to you months after FarFromHome led that chapter's discussion? Now's your chance -- post away! This week it's customary (but not required) to include the words "Free Discussion" in the subject line.
We've discussed almost the entire book, from the front cover to the "Braldagamba" joke at the end of Appendix F. To start us off this week, I have some questions about the one section we missed: the index.
1. Have you ever used the index to find something in LOTR? Do you remember what?
2. Does the book need an index?
3. Did you ever learn anything from the index?
I check the index pretty regularly myself, most recently yesterday when I was trying to remember who "Vinyarion" was, that sador asked about in one of his Appendix A threads. But he's not there! Not under that name, anyway: he's listed as "Hyarmendacil II (Vinyarion)". One thing I've learned from the index is that the Elendilmir, the Star of of Elendil that Aragorn wears on his forehead, represents Eärendil and has five rays.
I'll wrap up the week and entire discussion next Sunday with some final thoughts and thanks.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 16-22 for a free discussion on the entire book.
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
(This post was edited by N.E. Brigand on Mar 16 2009, 3:52am)
|
|
|
Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Mar 16 2009, 11:58am
Post #2 of 34
(1992 views)
Shortcut
|
1. Have you ever used the index to find something in LOTR? Do you remember what?
When I couldn't remember the exact passage I wanted to post online......
Other than that, no, never used the index at all.
2. Does the book need an index?
Why not?
(I can imagine the ensuing debate, lol)
3. Did you ever learn anything from the index?
Yeah, where to find the passage I needed - after lots of hard work searching each referrence for that character one after another...... 
|
|
|
Luthien Rising
Menegroth
Mar 16 2009, 12:50pm
Post #3 of 34
(2005 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Speaking as a writer of indexes --
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
One of things I do for a living is write indexes for the backs of books, mainly for popular history (this is, the histories you can buy in a regular bookstore) and fat biographies. I realized last week, looking at the index for the first time in many, many years --- there's your answer to do I ever use it, N.E. --- that it is perhaps the most eccentric index I've ever seen.
In indexing a narrative, we tend to lean toward treating it either as history or as biography: this is the "aboutness" of the index. A history index will generally focus on particular events, key actors, and places, with additional headings for concepts. Typical index subheadings for an event will look something like this: Irish famine of 1847, 118-52; causes of, 120-24, 148; commemoration of, 152, 224-28; international reaction to, 118, 128-31, 145; Parliamentary debate over, 131-33, 225. Index subheadings for a biography will look something like this: George Brown: on council, 45-50, 53, 70-71; death, 114-15; education, 28-29; homes, 27-28, 78-80, 252; as newspaper proprietor, 29-45, 52, 53, 80-82, 115-16.
What has Tolkien gone and done? He's helped us see that names of things: the subheadings of Galadriel (Lady) are Queen Galadriel; Elf-lady, Elven-, Elvish Lady; Lady of Lorien; of the Wood; of the Galadhrim; of the Elves; Lady that dies not, Mistress of Magic. Galadriel exists here neither in history nor in biography. This index says that we are reading not a narrative at all --- or, perhaps, that we are not thinking as narrative readers when we come back to the story. We are, rather, philologists. Funny, that.
Lúthien Rising
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us. / We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
|
|
Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Mar 16 2009, 1:31pm
Post #4 of 34
(2015 views)
Shortcut
|
mostly to look up the names of people I can't place. I think during one of our LotR discussions an argument erupted about the color of Legolas' hair, and I used the index to find the scene where his "dark head" was silhouetted against the stars. I can't remember what I looked up.
But since I found online files of LotR and the Sil, I mostly use the computer now to find passages.
And how wonderfully geeky is this, to have a discussion of the index! I love it! :-D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(This post was edited by Eledhwen on Mar 17 2009, 3:33am)
|
|
|
Luthien Rising
Menegroth
Mar 16 2009, 1:39pm
Post #5 of 34
(2015 views)
Shortcut
|
Thanks for the index discussion, NE :)
Lúthien Rising
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us. / We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Mar 16 2009, 2:34pm
Post #6 of 34
(1954 views)
Shortcut
|
(This post was edited by Curious on Mar 16 2009, 2:35pm)
|
|
|
One Ringer
Dor-Lomin
Mar 16 2009, 5:42pm
Post #7 of 34
(1981 views)
Shortcut
|
I find it's great to use for finding specific things, especially when you're studying the history or origins of Middle-Earth and everything about it. Plus it's fun to read through it, because there's always things you may not have noticed. 
What Could Have Been - an ongoing discussion of things that may or may not have been in The Lord of the Rings Trilogy.
|
|
|
Darkstone
Elvenhome
Mar 16 2009, 5:53pm
Post #8 of 34
(2008 views)
Shortcut
|
1. Have you ever used the index to find something in LOTR?
Yep.
Do you remember what?
Who Arwen was.
2. Does the book need an index?
More Tolkien is always good.
3. Did you ever learn anything from the index?
Who the heck this woman was who suddenly showed up out of nowhere to marry Aragorn!
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 16 2009, 6:41pm
Post #10 of 34
(1977 views)
Shortcut
|
1. Have you ever used the index to find something in LOTR?
Yes I have.
Do you remember what?
Most recently, to look up the place, "Anfalas." It just kept nagging at my mind, like a brain-worm. It was driving me crazy! Finally I realized that the name referred to a place in Tolkien's writings, though I couldn't quite place where it was. I wasn't even sure whether it cropped up in LotR or the Sil, but at least they had indexes (If it turned up in "The Hobbit", I was a goner.) I finally found out that it was part of Langstrand, a district of Gondor, referred to only in the context of many recruits for defending Minas Tirith coming from its crofts and villages, ill-equipped peasants for the most part, except for one local lord and his retinue. Ahhh--I could put that one to rest!
2. Does the book need an index?
I wish more books had indexes!
3. Did you ever learn anything from the index?
Mostly the answer to, "What's that weird-fannied name that keeps bugging me?"
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
|
|
|
sador
Gondolin
Mar 16 2009, 8:16pm
Post #11 of 34
(1992 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Well, this thread comes as no big surprise
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
1. Have you ever used the index to find something in LOTR? Do you remember what?
Me? I revel in indexes!
I mentioned the index when batik discussed 'The Steward and the King', in the context of Theoden's burial song.
And I also used it quite a bit when preparing the discussion of appendix A, for a curious reason. Several years ago, I somehow lost my copy of FotR. I was very upset and annoyed, but realised there was nothing to do, and I had to get a new one.
The problem is, it was a different publisher. My FotR is the Grafton 1991 edition, while the rest of LotR is Houghton Mifflin 1978. And for someone like me, who checks obscure things like the references in the footnotes (like I did in my discussion, but also before) - this was a great obstacle.
So when I had to look up the references to Earendil as the evening star, for instance - I had to go to the index, and check which names appear in proximity to the one I'm looking for, and then check it in the Grafton edition.
Confused? An example: in the tale of Ar-Adunakhor and the Faithful's resentment against his rule, "the Elder King" is mentioned, with a reference to somewhere in the middle of FotR. So I looked up a few names I knew where in the Rivendell chapters, and when I saw that "Eldamar" was on the same page - I realised it was in Bilbo's poem of Earendil - where it is indeed. in the next stanza!
2. Does the book need an index?
You can see it does!
But, well, an index means the book takes itself very seriously. In fact, if not for the 'History' conceit Tolkien uses in the appendices (and to a lesser extent, in the book itself) - the index would seem a bit of indulging his self-importance.
But as a 'Hostory' of Middle-Earth - it clearly needs one.
3. Did you ever learn anything from the index?
As a rule, indexes are not there to teach you, but to give information. It helped me find things, but so does the telephone book - and can I ever say I learn from the telephone book?
But it does teach, in a way, in the poetry index. Especially in the interconnecting of different poems. Possibly also when in brings together several names of the same place - such as Siverlode and Celebrant (which I think Legolas mentioned were the same, but who remembers that?).
"Half a sticky mile from here to the gate!" - Pippin
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Gondolin
Mar 16 2009, 8:32pm
Post #12 of 34
(2000 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Indexes are incredibly hard and incredibly important.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Making indexes isn't a routine part of my life as it is with Luthien Rising, but I have done quite a few for technical books that I've written or edited. Fortunately, today's software makes it a lot easier than it was when I was first doing it, in the 80's, and it would have been a real labor for Tolkien.
The challenge is (first) to identify what words or short phrases are going to be important to readers, and then to identify what passages contain significant information about it. For example, you might be interested in swords. Now, they're used a lot in LotR, but some swords are more important than others, and some passages discussing swords are more important than others. Listing every single mention of "sword" in LotR will produce too many references, most of them trivial and uninteresting. So, I might have sub-entries under "sword" for all the named swords (Anduril, Narsil, etc.), as well as references to significant mentions, such as Éowyn's "And those who have not swords can still die upon them."
Tolkien took a very idiosyncratic approach to indexing. He has no fewer than 6 separate indexes, three of which are devoted to poems and songs and proper names found therein! The other three are "People, beasts, and monsters" (characters, in other words); "Places", and "Things". Named weapons (not only swords, but things like DURIN'S AXE and ORCRIST) are in the latter, in caps, a distinction not applied to any other categories. So, you pretty much have to know what something is to be able to find it.
As a test case, I tried to find Éowyn's phrase above, and there was nothing in these indexes that helped me. In general, this scheme fails to help with things that are topics. I once led a week's discussion here on "horses", and had to resort to Acrobat's searches in an ebook LotR, which yielded 369 instances of the word "horse", most of them not relevant. In addition to the named horses, I'd like to have seen things like, for instance, a reference to the Rohirrim's horses panicking in the presence of the mûmakil.
So, in general, I find these indexes to tell us a lot more about Tolkien and what he thought was significant, than about the book and its contents.
The Rohirrim, by Peter Xavier Price
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
|
|
|
sador
Gondolin
Mar 16 2009, 9:04pm
Post #13 of 34
(1968 views)
Shortcut
|
Are they free and legal? If they are, could you provide a link?
"Half a sticky mile from here to the gate!" - Pippin
(This post was edited by Eledhwen on Mar 17 2009, 3:34am)
|
|
|
Menelwyn
Nargothrond
Mar 16 2009, 9:15pm
Post #14 of 34
(1974 views)
Shortcut
|
using the Index for a post I made on the Movie Board one time. We were debating the significance of the shards of Narsil, so I wanted to look at what the significance appeared to be in the book. The Index helped me find a lot of references that I wouldn't otherwise have thought of.
I remember learning that thing about the Star of Elendil too!
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 16 2009, 9:16pm
Post #15 of 34
(1987 views)
Shortcut
|
Tolkien had intended for an index to appear at the end of ROTK, a heavily annotated one, but that proved too large a project -- so there was no index at all in the first edition of 1954-55. Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull quote from this unfinished index at various points in their The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion. In the 1950s, one Nancy Smith prepared the index that most readers know, with its six-part division. To this index, which was published in the second edition of 1965 (and subsequently), Tolkien added a few dozen short notes, like the reference to the Elendilmir having five rays, that I mentioned. In 2005, Hammond and Scull created a completely new index, which is much more comprehensive (if still not including every name, like Vinyarion). All of these indices are restricted solely to names and titles, disregarding entirely the historical, biographical, or motif elements that Luthien Rising or Elizabeth mention as staples of non-fiction indices.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 16-22 for a free discussion on the entire book.
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Gondolin
Mar 16 2009, 9:16pm
Post #16 of 34
(1996 views)
Shortcut
|
an online book is to Google an extended phrase. Not all hits will be a whole book (many sites, including this one, have quotes), but some will stand out. As for legality, you'll have to check what the site says.
I no longer remember the circumstances under which I found my copies, but I consider that I don't use mine in any way that harms the Tolkien Estate in any way.
The Rohirrim, by Peter Xavier Price
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 16 2009, 9:20pm
Post #17 of 34
(1998 views)
Shortcut
|
And the admins have stressed in the past that it is important that TORN not be party to making such e-texts available.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 16-22 for a free discussion on the entire book.
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
|
|
|
Luthien Rising
Menegroth
Mar 16 2009, 9:26pm
Post #18 of 34
(1971 views)
Shortcut
|
How distant was Nancy Smith working from Tolkien himself?
Lúthien Rising
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us. / We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
|
|
sador
Gondolin
Mar 16 2009, 9:45pm
Post #19 of 34
(1978 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Isn't it? I was afraid so. What a shame!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Ah, well; I'll need to carry on doing the usual thing - searching a sentence on 'Search posts' - usually I come up with a post by gramma which I can copy from (I hope that's o.k.  )
But it is interesting that in the 21st century, electronic copies are not available for money - at the very least, one would assume it would be in the Tolkien Estate's interest to have one of TORn, wouldn't it? It could promote interest in the books!
"Half a sticky mile from here to the gate!" - Pippin
|
|
|
entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 16 2009, 9:57pm
Post #20 of 34
(1963 views)
Shortcut
|
and have used it many times. Sometimes I'll need to recall a detail of the story but I can't remember exactly where it is, but I can remember some of the details or participants. So the index often save me paging through the chapters.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Gondolin
Mar 16 2009, 10:05pm
Post #21 of 34
(2009 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Whose idea was the 6-part organization?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Was that Nancy Smith, or was it Tolkien's request that she honored? Do we have any more information about this organization, or how Nancy worked?
The Rohirrim, by Peter Xavier Price
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Gondolin
Mar 16 2009, 10:19pm
Post #22 of 34
(1979 views)
Shortcut
|
...the most casual Google search turns up a bunch of them. If the Estate wanted to clamp down, it would be easy to do so. Some attorneys say that if a copyright holder doesn't aggressively defend a copyright it can be lost.
Curious, are you out there?
The Rohirrim, by Peter Xavier Price
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 16 2009, 10:34pm
Post #23 of 34
(1981 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Actually the Estate regularly sends notices
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
...to sites, demanding that they remove copyrighted material. (I believe it is with that possibility in mind that Ataahua posted the guidelines on use of text in the Reading Room.) And I have found that where the full text of one or more of Tolkien's texts appears at a site, it is soon taken down. That is why such texts most often appear at sites based in countries not signatory to copyright agreements.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 16-22 for a free discussion on the entire book.
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
|
|
|
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Mar 16 2009, 11:26pm
Post #24 of 34
(2002 views)
Shortcut
|
... when I had to complete the index for my book? I certainly have a lot of respect for what you do, after that experience.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
|
|
|
batik
Dor-Lomin
Mar 16 2009, 11:30pm
Post #25 of 34
(2029 views)
Shortcut
|
1.Have you ever used the index to find something in LOTR? Do you remember what?
Oh yes....lots. Hmmm....I think something about the Red (? )Arrow most recently.
2. Does the book need an index?
I don't know if the book needs an index...but this reader does 
I was reading something by another author recently and thought...where's the index, dangit!?!
3. Did you ever learn anything from the index?
Surely.
I really like the index in The 'Sil'--it's more of a glossary, isn't it?
|
|
|
|
|
1
