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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Mar 14 2009, 1:48pm

Post #51 of 178 (1548 views)
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Excellent suggestion! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

The other thing I've noticed is that many lurkers are afraid of saying somethig someone else already said, or seems likely to say, and perhaps to say better. The key is not to look at what anyone else says before you answer. I don't care if you've said the same thing as everyone else. The process of thinking through your own answer is, I judge, highly valuable. And often the differences between the answers is enlightening.


Don't ever change, Curious.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Mar 14 2009, 2:03pm

Post #52 of 178 (1540 views)
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*Mods way, way, way up!* [In reply to] Can't Post

That was incredibly clearly stated, and cuts right to the heart of the problem. (Like others here, I was rather astounded to see how many people said they felt intimidated, including some incredibly bright and capable people.)

When I was a young woman, I took a class in educational psychology, which turned out to be very useful not only in teaching but in parenting. And the most useful thing I learned is that there's a way to disagree or even correct someone gently. As a teacher, I throw out questions in class all the time, and promise the students the first day that I will never, ever, laugh at them or shame them. And because it's a math class, the questions I answer generally have one or two correct answers, and other answers are just plain wrong. My ed psych teacher told us never to tell a student an answer was wrong, but of course in a math class I have to do that a lot. But there's a way to do that without hurting the person. "Hmmm, I can see why you'd think that, because..." and here I try to get at the throught process. And I think I'm relatively successful, because students don't seem to mind taking a chance on an answer that may turn out to be wrong.

In a literature discussion, there are fewer times where an answer will be flat-out wrong, unless it's some factual thing like "who was Bilbo's mother?" So there's even more cause for care.

You, a.s., are clearly not tone-deaf, since you captured the nit-pick style so very clearly. Though to tell the truth, I don't recognize anyone here as someone who uses it. But I don't see every post here, so I'm sure it could have happened.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Mar 14 2009, 2:08pm

Post #53 of 178 (1568 views)
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To answer in RR style. [In reply to] Can't Post

I would like to encourage you to answer in whatever style feels natural to you. I would like to point out that Darkstone sometimes answers questions here with one-word sentences, but often that one word is perfect.

I have been so impressed through the years with all the people here for whom English is a second language. I can write in Spanish, but I would sound like a small child if I tried to discuss anything of substance that way.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Mar 14 2009, 2:15pm

Post #54 of 178 (1536 views)
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What she said. [In reply to] Can't Post

There are a lot of times when I read something amazing and all I can thing of saying in response is "Wow!" There's a lot of that in this very thread, as a matter of fact.

But like Silverlode, if someone replies to a post of mine with another idea or further thought, that feels like an especially valuable cookie.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



squire
Half-elven


Mar 14 2009, 2:25pm

Post #55 of 178 (1563 views)
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Hey! [In reply to] Can't Post

*Getting up from a damp mossy rock in a muddy forest after intimidating someone*

How the heck am I supposed to keep all these white robes clean, anyway? At least Curious gets basic black.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


Curious
Half-elven


Mar 14 2009, 2:26pm

Post #56 of 178 (1575 views)
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I wish people would say when they are getting frustrated. [In reply to] Can't Post

And it's important to pay attention when they do. But one of the problems with the internet is that it often is not evident that they are not enjoying the argument. I do try to check it out if I see any evidence of frustration, or even if the back and forth goes on too long. But I don't always see it. Furthermore, some people find an argument offensive even when they are not a part of it at all, and when the actual person I'm arguing with doesn't mind at all.

Still, I agree with your main point, that we should pay attention if anyone expresses frustration.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Mar 14 2009, 2:31pm

Post #57 of 178 (1597 views)
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Looking back at this little subthread the next day, I'm ashamed [In reply to] Can't Post

to realize that I'm guilty of exactly the sort of nit-picking people have been complaining about, the "You're wrong and here are several examples to prove it." I meant it to be encouraging and light-hearted, but I can't deny that it's pretty argumentative.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Curious
Half-elven


Mar 14 2009, 2:39pm

Post #58 of 178 (1584 views)
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And why is that a source of shame? [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you checked it out with anyone? Was anyone offended? Might they have been more offended if you had ignored them entirely?

And am I now nitpicking with you? Is that okay?

I judge that you have done nothing shameful. And I would paraphrase your posts differently. Instead of "You're wrong and here are several examples to prove it," I would say "I'm not yet persuaded and here are several reasons why, but maybe you can convince me, or perhaps we can reach a middle ground, if you want to pursue this further." How else can we work towards a consensus on the proper etiquette of the Reading Room?


Magpie
Immortal


Mar 14 2009, 2:46pm

Post #59 of 178 (1575 views)
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I've only read half this thread... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but it feels the right time to jump in with a few thoughts.

One: I was one who voiced, at the request of NE, in the feedback thread... why I don't linger her. If anyone is reading this thread here but has not read my thoughts there, I would kindly ask that you do so before assuming anything about me or my hesitations. I don't really wish to copy and paste it all here.

some random reactions.

NE seemed serious in his request to understand hesitations about participating in the RR. I like NE. I honored his request. I would never have said anything otherwise. I am not on a crusade to change anything. I've found that I have very little effect on changing things that seemed to be comfortably seated.

I don't feel intimidated by the discussions here. I find it hard, time wise, to keep up with discussions that are very thorough and in depth. But that's not the same as intimidation. Nor do I think that, just because I can't keep up, things should slow down. They absolutely shouldn't.

I don't avoid this place because I'm afraid people will be mean. I don't know that I think they are or will be. To believe this is to completely miss the point of all I was trying to say in feedback.

I enjoy a different kind of discussion than the ones I see here. The kinds of discussions that I tend to see here are usually conducted by people who think about things differently than I do. My experience has been that our different styles of thinking extend beyond just the topic at hand. They extend to the way the discussion is conducted. And that difference in the way discussions are conducted can lead to hurt feelings. It's not that I think someone is trying to be mean. It's that I don't think they understand that I don't want to discuss in their style.

Look, I once attended a presentation on storytelling. I love storytelling and how it manifests itself in different ways and in different cultures. One of the women who spoke was Ojibiwa. I was fascinated with what she said and after the lecture, I went up to her... all enthusiastic and chatty and verbal and personal. I bet I even got into her space because, at that time, I was pretty socially clueless. In my mind, I was acting on my positive reaction to her presentation and I was showing her how much I loved what she said. But a few minutes into this interaction, I noticed she didn't seem to be enjoying the interaction as much as I thought she would. She wasn't getting all enthusiastic and chatty and verbal back with me. I understood, in a split second, that I might very well be asking her to interact in a way that wasn't comfortable to her. I was making assumptions that she was just like me.

Was I being mean? Did she think I was being mean? No, I don't think so. But if I want to have prolonged and satisfying interactions with someone like that, I probably need to be really sensitive as to how my style of interacting is being perceived and whether I need to modify my style in order to improve communications.

As I said on feedback, I have come to understand why groups don't always work for me. And why sometimes, they are disasterous. The way I process and the way I express myself is a minority style. All those committees I tried to join where no one in the room understood what I had to offer or - sometimes - wanted to hear it... it wasn't my fault and it wasn't theirs. We were just processing and communicating differently. Now, in some instances, a wonderful facilitator would pick up on this and find a way for the two styles to come together effectively. In some cases, I blissfully found myself in a group where my style was not the minority. For for all those experiences, I've been in plenty were I tried to find my place, I tried to communicate in their style, I tried to help them understand my preferred style, I tried to develop an atmosphere where both styles were respected and encouraged... and it was all for nought. You know how it's said that you can only change yourself? Well, I started to understand that sometimes my only choice was to leave before it got nasty. I'm still reminded sometimes how nasty it can get if, instead of just quietly walking away, I hang in there for a few more tries.

I think I said this on feedback. If I didn't, I should have. I do not think people here are incapable of change. I have no reason to think that and I have many to think otherwise. As a whole, I think the posters on TORn are some of the most thoughtful, intelligent, mature, and interesting people I've met. But the fact is, I know how much energy it takes for me to fit in when the prevailing style is not one that meshes with my preferred style. I know how much potential there is for hurt feelings, either mine... or someone else's when I react badly to something that feels disrespectful or dismissive to me. And I know that I've seen those sorts of comments here.

Can I reiterate that I don't think those sorts of comments are made by bad people? And that I don't think those sorts of comments were made to be hurtful? Can I suck it up and apply balm to comments that feel dismissive or contentious to me? Absolutely. Can I extend the energy to see if the prevailing style can adapt to my preferred style? Absolutely. Do I want to do all that? I'm not sure. I take responsibility for that. It feels like too much work for me for something that I want to be enjoyable. My call. I'm willing to live with it. But I hope that no one feels that I'm complaining without being willing to do anything about it. Or complaining and wanting someone else to do all the work. I really don't think I'm complaining. My first and continuing motivation was to share my feelings with someone who asked. Make of that what you will but don't let it run to defensive feelings.



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Curious
Half-elven


Mar 14 2009, 2:51pm

Post #60 of 178 (1563 views)
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I agree with your suggestion. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's important to check things out with the person you are talking to. And it is frustrating to find out a third party lurker took offense. Many of the people expressing frustration with the Reading Room, I judge, are doing so without diving into the pool, or without voicing their frustration to the person who is frustrating them. If they did so, they would likely get an immediate apology, or at least a sympathetic response.


Quote

I don't like talking to people when I feel that they're responding to my comments with "Prove it!". Questions are good to elicit more information and bring up more material. I don't much care for them when I feel they're hoops I'm jumping through to get to the end of the obstacle course and win. I'm not competitive in that way. I've always loved deep detailed logical discussion but I've never had the desire to join a debate team. ...

More than once I've found myself in a discussion with people here feeling that I was defending my post as if I were in front of a board examining me for a thesis, and got irritated in spite of myself because I knew quite well that they were genuinely interested. But their style of questioning bugged me no end. And the last few such discussions weren't even in the RR.


I'm not sure if this expresses the way you feel, or actual incidents. But I don't think anyone I've seen has ever responded to a comment with the statement "Prove it!" I can imagine, however, that some people may ask innocent questions -- heck, I've done it myself, asking for cites -- and it will sound like I'm saying "Prove it!" when in fact I am, as the name implies, curious.


a.s.
Valinor


Mar 14 2009, 2:54pm

Post #61 of 178 (1560 views)
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Curious, my brother, with love and affection and the highest regards: you miss my point [In reply to] Can't Post

Now, do you need smilies to hear my voice, as I have lots and LOTS of them??!! Just ask.

Also exclamation points, which I use a lot, even though I am perfectly capable of not using them. Do you think I use them because I don't know proper punctuation???!!!

LOL



Quote
we should pay attention if anyone expresses frustration.




That is not my point.

Here is my point: people will not tell you they are frustrated. You may wish to get that cue, but it won't happen most of the time. Most people do not have that style of converse to begin with, confrontational I mean. Others are new and don't have context and don't know that you will be perfectly happy for them to tell you to back off. They will simply BE frustrated and leave, and not return.

Or they will go back to lurking and not respond.

I MYSELF, dear heart, and please hear the affection in my voice, I MYSELF get frustrated when you keep disagreeing with me. And I am not an easy to intimidate person (old cranky nurse that I am), so it's not that you are intimidating me. It's that I get tired of iterating and reiterating the same basic point and just give up, since it's not a contest anyway and it doesn't matter if I "win".

More importantly, I STOP TRYING. Even me. Even someone who loves the RR the way I do.

Or sometimes I argue back for the sheer irritation I am feeling, and then what happens is people PM me to ask if I am upset. So that tells me: people can hear my tone. But sometimes you can't hear my tone.

Well, I am not here to "school" you on tone, I am hear to converse with my brothers and sisters. It's not my place to tell you or anyone how to post!!! That would be a gross misunderstanding of what I am trying to offer here, which is just affection and hopefully (if one can misuse the word "hopefully" in the RR without fear of correction!) insight.

Most importantly, I am not lecturing the RR, I am INCLUDING MYSELF in the RR and saying I may be just as guilty as anyone else of misreading tone or intent. I am trying to figure out what people are saying and offering my own insight; that doesn't mean I can perfectly follow my own instructions, nor that I MYSELF have not occasionally been part of the problem. If I have, then like 99.9% of my RR siblings I did it unintentionally.

I don't think anyone expects us to grovel and keep apologizing, I think they are sharing what is keeping them away, and if we want them to come on in, we need to check that our welcome aboard message matches the experience of sailing, because after all, percpetion is a perceptor's reality.

I had to throw that last in because it sounds all RR-ish, don't you think?

Heart

a.s. (don't MAKE me break into song)

"an seileachan"

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana


Call Her Emily


Magpie
Immortal


Mar 14 2009, 3:07pm

Post #62 of 178 (1543 views)
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tone [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But they can change their attention to tone



One of the things I've come to understand is that any response that is given to any statement pretty much works in one of two ways. It either encourages further discussion or it shuts it down.

When someone says, "hmm... I hadn't thought of it like that at all. Can you tell me how you came to think that?", you're asking for more.

Or when someone says, "Hmm... Tolkien has said this (_____) about that (_____). Have you read that? How does that figure into your thinking?", you're offering to carry on a dialog with that person. You've shown interest. You're asking for more.

When someone says, "You're mistaken. This quote proves it.", you're shutting someone down. You're not asking for more. There is no comeback to that outside of a debate (and I view discussion and debate as two different animals. Some people like debate. Some people don't.)

The same point can be made in either way. It can be made in a way that either shuts down the discussion or initiates a debate. Or it can be made in a way that continues and fosters cordial discussion without jumping to debate. Sometimes, I suppose, the best option is to just skip a comment altogether. Either because one finds it simply too foolish to take seriously (and I have those moments) or too outside one's realm of interest or being conducted in a style that doesn't suit you.

There are hundreds of ways to shut down a discussion. There are hundreds of ways to nurture it. My experience is that some people are more sensitive to which sort of way is being utilized at any particular point. Sensitive as in: senses more clearly. Not sensitive as in: too prone to misunderstand.

(aha moment: when did 'sensitive' become a bad thing?)




2009 Tolkien Computer Monitor Calendars
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simplyaven
Grey Havens


Mar 14 2009, 3:15pm

Post #63 of 178 (1507 views)
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Very true! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I've also seen a number of newbies venture in with 'uneducated and un-researched' comments about their (granted, sometime wild) thoughts and theories, only to be pressured to cite their sources or to literally be ganged up on by regulars anxious to prove, without any shadow of a doubt, that they are right and the newbie is wrong. Without fail those newbies left the boards altogether, never to return.

In my experience, people gravitate to TORn either for love of the movies or for love of the books. It’s common sense that those who come to TORn for love of the books will naturally and enthusiastically want to dip their toes in the waters of the RR. So, while I agree that the scholars and regulars of the RR shouldn’t have to change their fundamental style of posting, I believe they *should* make every effort and, yes, even bend over backwards if necessary to be welcoming to newbies and to help them along and encourage them to pursue their knowledge of all things Tolkien – not beat them over their heads with how un-enlightened and unread they are.

I believe the RR ultimately can and should be both a haven for scholars *and* a place where anyone who loves Tolkien’s writing, no matter how well read, can feel welcome to explore their theories and thoughts. In other words, the regulars can gang up on each other to their hearts content, but should lighten up on, and even nurture, new people.




I also want to believe the RR can be comfortable for anyone, no matter how much they know or how many books related to Tolkien they have read. You said it very nicely, thank you for this post! Smile

Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on the Main board!

I believe


Curious
Half-elven


Mar 14 2009, 3:15pm

Post #64 of 178 (1569 views)
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Checking it out is doubly important on the internet, because [In reply to] Can't Post

it is much harder to perceive how the other person feels. At the same time, it would also help if we let people know how we feel, and what kind of discussion we would prefer.

I appreciate your willingness to let N.E.B. know how you feel. It sparked a great discussion (or two great discussions) on Reading Room etiquette, and for that I am grateful. And one common theme seems to be that we need to be sensitive to how others feel, and check it out as often as possible.

I'm just noting that it's a two-way street. It's also important to do what you have done, i.e., to let people know how you feel, especially if the feeling is negative.

Another theme seems to be that the Reading Room might not be for everyone, for a variety of reasons, and we don't need to beat ourselves up because of it. We can do better, especially with newcomers, and at the same time, some of us enjoy well-reasoned arguments, and that's okay too.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Mar 14 2009, 3:16pm

Post #65 of 178 (1561 views)
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I love you, Curious. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
And am I now nitpicking with you? Is that okay?


LOL! You can nitpick with me any time you want.

But I do notice a tendency in myself, when I get in a hurry, to dash off a bunch of counterexamples. Must be a math thing. As far as whether anyone was offended, I don't know yet. But I put myself in the other person's place and thought, well, I might have been a little offended if the parts had been reversed. That's how I usually judge.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



simplyaven
Grey Havens


Mar 14 2009, 3:20pm

Post #66 of 178 (1533 views)
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Classist [In reply to] Can't Post

What's this? What are these reasons except the already mentioned a number of times lack of time?


Quote

Another theme seems to be that the Reading Room might not be for everyone, for a variety of reasons, and we don't need to beat ourselves up because of it.



When I said the discussion sador was leading became elitarian I was told I was wrong and didn't get it right. Now it seems the RR can be suitable for certain type of TORNsibs, why? I would think this is just another sub-board where everyone should be feeling comfortable to discuss whatever pleases them in whatever way they like it, and not a club with membership cards. Am I mistaking?

Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on the Main board!

I believe


Magpie
Immortal


Mar 14 2009, 3:22pm

Post #67 of 178 (1540 views)
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That's exactly how I would put it [In reply to] Can't Post

...in my most brilliantly articulate moments. ... of which I have few. I could pull out quotes that I feel speak for me particularly well but I think it would pretty much be the entire post. Well put.

And when I was writing my posts in the Feedback section yesterday, I was thinking about precisely that older post you linked to.





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simplyaven
Grey Havens


Mar 14 2009, 3:23pm

Post #68 of 178 (1510 views)
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Great post! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on the Main board!

I believe


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Mar 14 2009, 3:26pm

Post #69 of 178 (1557 views)
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Oh, how well I know what you're saying! [In reply to] Can't Post

English is my fourth language Crazy I come here to polish and improve it but often I just leave...

Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on the Main board!

I believe


Curious
Half-elven


Mar 14 2009, 3:26pm

Post #70 of 178 (1553 views)
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What, then, shall we do? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that many people will not express their frustration. But now I'm frustrated.


a.s.
Valinor


Mar 14 2009, 3:30pm

Post #71 of 178 (1552 views)
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everyone should feel COMFORTABLE, but everyone will not ENJOY [In reply to] Can't Post

Not speaking for Curious, understand.

But I think he meant that the kinds of conversations that occupy the RR may not be of interest to some. Period.

Not that anyone should ever feel uncomfortable posting their own thoughts in the RR. We want to encourage that!

But it may be that, after awhile, one loses interest in what is being discussed, or the way it is being discussed, and THAT is fine, as well.

If a Tornsib feels unwelcome, that is not OK.

But if a Tornsib is simply not interested in the RR conversations, that is OK. The RR is not for everyone, anymore than the Movie Board is for everyone.

I know, for instance, that I am welcome anytime in Movie. I am just not interested in that right now, for no particular reason but mostly time. The welcome mat is out there, good. I am not interested in posting there. Also good. They'll make room for me, when and if I get interested. Very good.

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana


Call Her Emily


Curious
Half-elven


Mar 14 2009, 3:32pm

Post #72 of 178 (1491 views)
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Thanks, you spoke for me pretty well.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Mar 14 2009, 3:35pm

Post #73 of 178 (1572 views)
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That's exactly what happens and the fact there is an argument going on is proving it [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Avoid this, I mean:

me: I just posted a composition that obviously took me a lot of time, it is six paragraphs and I made several points.

RR regular: I don't agree, and here's why.

me: really? Well, I don't see it that way, but maybe I didn't phrase it well. I'll try again, here's why I think what I just said.

RR regular: I still don't agree, and here's why.

me: gee, I'm getting a little frustrated. You keep saying I said X but I really did not think I said X, I thought I said x. I simply don't agree with you equating X with x, sorry.

RR regular: How can you still disagree with me? It is clearly stated in Y by Sir W that x is X.

me: OK, thanks.


And I never try to post a thoughtful, long post again.



Yes, that's the pattern. And it goes forever or until the newbie leaves. Not because the newbie lacks knowledge or willingness to discuss Tolkien but because from one point on it is not fun anymore but some dead end street. And the fact there is an argument going on now proves it. Once again it is the regulars saying :No, we are not like this but you must say so if you're intimidated or frustrated" (and pardon me but in RL I don't say "i'm frustrated, please change the tone of the conversation". I just quit). Those who try to explain why they don't write here once again have to defend their position which is absurd. People are different and have different perception. One shouldn't be required to explain themselves like students at the balck board, IMHO. Unsure

Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on the Main board!

I believe


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Mar 14 2009, 3:38pm

Post #74 of 178 (1541 views)
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When everyone start feeling comfortable... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I understand very well some of them may not enjoy it. But it seems the RR is not there yet Unimpressed Most of the people who speak now are not feeling welcome and comfortable, am I wrong? This is my understanding and not that they don't enjoy discussing the books.

Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on the Main board!

I believe


a.s.
Valinor


Mar 14 2009, 3:41pm

Post #75 of 178 (1536 views)
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I am sorry that you are frustrated [In reply to] Can't Post



I hear you. It is hard to sit with frustration without attempting to "do" something, isn' it? I know the nurse in me is reaching for bandages...but some things don't require bandages, do they? They require thought, and time.

This isn't an action plan. This is discussion of feelings with our extended family, and we may not end up with an "action" plan we can follow to solve all problems.

But we can recognize problems and try our best to make ourselves open to others, watch when the posting starts to become exclusive, and do what we can to stimulate new entry, so to speak.

And hopefully people will feel more open to expressing their frustration within the conversations so immediate course correction can occur, because these full-length sharing sessions are INTENSE.

Whew.

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana


Call Her Emily

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